Yora reviews Babylon 5

[Yora]

It's the same problem that already happened to Talia. The telepaths are only brought out when the story has need for a telepath. They are never really used for anything but that, allowed to have their own stories. Which is a shame, because I think both characters have much more potential.

#remakeBabylonFive

[Rakaydos]

You know, if I were in charge of making Babylon 5, I think I would double down on the concept of, " all scenes take place on the station, or on station associated ships. " For everything off station, either have comm calls to ambassadors, or introduce an investigative journalist type character, and have a stronger showing of ISN investigative reports being watched by people on the station. And yes the ISN does publish stuff by the investigative journalist, like say the shadow reveal found in a in a fighter flight recorder.

My initial candidate for the journalist is Sinclair's girlfriend, Sakai. Having her cover the mimbari civil war as the former ambassador's wife, and and explaining what's really behind all the no comments she's getting, might be an interesting variant on the plot.

"Mimbari do not kill mimbari, but watch as religious cast members are driven into the desert by the warrior cast. More mimbari hypocrisy?"

[Grey Watcher]

Yeah, I really didn't like the way Lyta was treated this episode--the whole thing just seemed to be an excuse for her having to rejoin Psi Corps. To treat her so shoddily really doesn't make any sense considering all she did during the Shadow War, especially considering that a powerful telepath is an extremely useful thing to have around.

Spoiler: Season 5

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Literally everything going wrong for her is a big part of why she behaves the way she does later. I think of she wasn't getting so thoroughly trampled here, her anger and overt hostility later on would be much less sympathetic.

In a way, she's kinda like the mad bomber from Season 2, but now in a more sympathetic light. None of the bad things happening to her are her fault, but the people responsible are beyond her reach. (It'd be nice if Garibaldi told Edgars where to shove his pettily dictatorial attitude, but, much like Lyta, he really does need the money.)

The climax of the Minbari civil war, and Neroon's revelation he was religious caste all along, was pretty darned awesome, though.

I also think it's meant to be an even better solution than Delenn martyring herself. Being born Warrior caste but having a deathbed conversion to the Religious caste means the person who died in the Starfire Wheel was essentially both. And I think that makes it a lot easier for all sides to accept that it's over.

Plus, I dunno, it's like a weird balancing of the scales with Bramner (born Religious, turned Warrior).

[Yora]

You know, if I were in charge of making Babylon 5, I think I would double down on the concept of, " all scenes take place on the station, or on station associated ships. " For everything off station, either have comm calls to ambassadors, or introduce an investigative journalist type character, and have a stronger showing of ISN investigative reports being watched by people on the station. And yes the ISN does publish stuff by the investigative journalist, like say the shadow reveal found in a in a fighter flight recorder.

My initial candidate for the journalist is Sinclair's girlfriend, Sakai. Having her cover the mimbari civil war as the former ambassador's wife, and and explaining what's really behind all the no comments she's getting, might be an interesting variant on the plot.

When characters get information from the news, it's usually really great dramatic scenes of a style you don't usually see anywhere else. I think that's something that really only can work in TV. Using the tool more frequently certainly would be a good idea, though I think part of its effect comes from it not being used too often. But I think giving the news a more regular background presence could be great. Maybe also have a second channel.

Building on the concept of subjective information, I think it would also be interesting to only ever have scenes in which one of the main characters is present. No scenes showing the villains talking about their plans in private. There are a couple of nice scenes with Bester or Morden talking with other villains, but when information has such a central role in the story, then making the audience as clueless as the characters seems like a great idea.

[Rodin]

I also think it's meant to be an even better solution than Delenn martyring herself. Being born Warrior caste but having a deathbed conversion to the Religious caste means the person who died in the Starfire Wheel was essentially both. And I think that makes it a lot easier for all sides to accept that it's over.

Plus, I dunno, it's like a weird balancing of the scales with Bramner (born Religious, turned Warrior).

I've always hated it myself. Neroon is literally the only sympathetic Warrior caste member we see. As we learn more about him he turns from an antagonist into a well-intentioned person of principles who just happens to disagree with the protagonists. The previous episode sets up the mutual respect between Neroon and Delenn - the only such respect we see on the show.

And then they have him declare himself Religious. That leaves zero sympathetic Warrior caste members, because Neroon was Religious. Neroon himself got redeemed by realizing that he is Religious, because the entire Warrior caste is apparently scum. The two castes didn't work together, everything was done by the Religious caste.

It's a terrible message. Having Neroon as a Warrior caste member who sacrifices himself for a Religious caste member is better than having Delenn sacrifice herself. Changing caste at the last second ruins it!

I realize that I'm quibbling over one line of dialogue. But it's such a HUGE line of dialogue and it destroys an otherwise fantastic scene.

[Kantaki]

I've always hated it myself. Neroon is literally the only sympathetic Warrior caste member we see. As we learn more about him he turns from an antagonist into a well-intentioned person of principles who just happens to disagree with the protagonists. The previous episode sets up the mutual respect between Neroon and Delenn - the only such respect we see on the show.

And then they have him declare himself Religious. That leaves zero sympathetic Warrior caste members, because Neroon was Religious. Neroon himself got redeemed by realizing that he is Religious, because the entire Warrior caste is apparently scum. The two castes didn't work together, everything was done by the Religious caste.

It's a terrible message. Having Neroon as a Warrior caste member who sacrifices himself for a Religious caste member is better than having Delenn sacrifice herself. Changing caste at the last second ruins it!

I realize that I'm quibbling over one line of dialogue. But it's such a HUGE line of dialogue and it destroys an otherwise fantastic scene.

I think part of why Neroon did it was so the other Warriors couldn't try and claim it as their victory.
Which I'm pretty sure they would've tried, making the whole exercise pointless.
Not that the Religious Caste is any better.
There's a reason Delenn gave most of the power to the Workers.
Because they were clever enough to bide their time.

[Yora]

S4E15: No Surrender, No Retreat

Sherridan has the TV room turned back into the war room and calls a meeting of the diplomatic council. He and Ivanova inform the ambassadors that they are going to war with Earth, and that they need the nonhuman governments to break their defense treaties with EarthForce and stay neutral in the fighting. The ambassadors are shocked, but G'Kar takes the word and reminds them that Earth never helped any of them against the Shadows or the Centauri, but Sherridan's forces always came to their aid. Sherridan also reminds them that the government on Earth is extremely xenophobic and constantly blaming everything on aliens. If they go to war, they also need help to defend Babylon 5 against attacks, and request a cruiser from each government. Otherwise he wants them to stay out of everything.

Marcus arrives in a hurry with urgent information about the EarthForce fleet blockading Proxima 3. Sherridan notices that he doesn't know the captains of the two ships that destroyed refugee transports, so they are probably new and politically appointed Clark loyalists. He also wants Marcus to try finding out if any of the ships appeared to avoid engaging fleeing transports.

Sherridan sends White Star scouts to Earth and Mars to draw away government forces and keep them away from reinforcing the defending ships at Proxima 3.

Londo comes to G'Kar's quarters, who immediately enjoys himself snarking and making Londo feel guilty. Londo starts shooting back before he realizes that fighting with each other has become second nature to them and they do it without thinking. He came here to tell G'Kar that he feels grateful that he helped saving the Centauri from a terrible future, even though that never was his goal. G'Kar is not impressed in the slightest and has no sympathy for Londo.
Londo admits that he made terrible mistakes in the last years because he wanted to help his people but did not know who their real enemies were. But right now he feels certain that Sherridan is a friend, and he convinced the Centauri government to support him. And he thinks if the Narn would do the same and announce it together, then they will be able to get all the others to recognize Sherridan as the current leader of the humans as well. But G'Kar still has no inclination to make peace between them.

Sherridan and Ivanova brief the fighter pilots on which government ships have been destroying refugee transports and which ships they expect to avoid participating in a battle. The order is to give all ships a chance to defect, surrender, or retreat, but any vessel that shots at them or targets them is to be destroyed. Their own survival is of greater priority.

Sherridan has a few White Stars jump out of hyperspace at Proxima 3, and Doctor Admiral Celso sends one of the loyalist Pollux and one of the undetermined Nemisis to engage them, while keeping his own Heracles back with the others. Once the blockade fleet has split up, Sherridan has the second group come from hyperspace as well and the admiral orders the remaining ships to engage them. Sherridan then has a third group come out behind them and the Vesta and Fury are ordered to turn around and defend the back. He then calls on all the ships in the blockade to leave the system.

The captain of the Vesta calls Sherridan to break off this attack, as no matter what's going on, they can not allow Proxima 3 to secede from the Earth Alliance. Sherridan tells him this isn't secession but about stopping illegal military actions against Earth Alliance citizens. The admiral is done waiting and give the order to advance and open fire, but the Vesta isn't providing covering fire from the back. The admiral tells the first officer that the captain is relieved and he's in command of the ship now.

Sherridan orders to concentrate fire on the Heracles and Pollux which are known hostiles. He then takes his own ship to the Fury and asks them to surrender, but doesn't get any reply. Marcus flies them right across the main guns but she ship does not react in any way, so Sherridan gives the order for all other ship to ignore the Fury. The Vesta does fire though and Marcus tells him they have no choice and he has to give the order to attack him. But a few seconds later he gets a call from the Vesta that the bridge crew mutinied and removed the first officer, and the captain is back in command. They will not engage in further combat. Meanwhile the Juno just heads for the jump gate and leaves.

The Pollux has a collision with a wrecked White Star and explodes. The Nemesis immediately announced its surrender. Sherridan calls the Heracles again to demand the admiral to surrender. The admiral insist that Sherridan will not just blow them out of the sky, but first officer disagrees and orders the bridge crew to arrest him. She announces their surrender as well and Sherridan has the four remaining captains come to his ship to discuss terms.

Sherridan gives them three options: First, they can return to their ships and return to Earth. Second, they can stay at Proxima 3 and defend it against attacks by government forces. And third, they can join his fleet to continue the campaign towards Earth.
The captain of the Heracles agrees that they had no place blockading Proxima 3, but they can't just overthrow the government in a military coup. Sherridan tells them that their duty is to defend the state from external and internal threats, but the captain of the Vesta thinks that's really stretching the definitions. Sherridan has called all the other EarthForce ships that have mutinied to assemble at Proxima 3, and he wants them to come with them when they head to Earth. The captain of the Vesta says the four of them have to discuss this in private.

On Babylon 5, G'Kar tells Londo that he will have the Narn join the Centauri in supporting Sherridan. But he won't sign on the same page.

The captain of the Vesta comes to Sherridan of the bridge to tell him that one of the four ships will rejoin with EarthForce and another will stay to protect Proxima 3. The other two will join the attack fleet.

Garibaldi leaves the station and takes a transport to Mars.

--

I don't understand? How can this show have repeated long stretches of poor performance and then jump back to full performance like it's nothing? This is great. This almost seamlessly picking up where S3E10: Severed Dreams left us hanging.

And it's not just the shooty-shooty at the end. This episodes feels very strong again right from the start. It makes you think that the show has two different writing teams. But the episodes are all credited to just Straczinsky. Everything is much more focused and filled with purpose than it has been with the rest of the season so far.

The fight scene is pretty good, though. Not as impressive as in Severed Dreams, but it is written and presented in a very similar way. I think it could actually have been longer. Things are happening too quickly. But I really like how they started with 6 ships and every one of them dropped out of the fight in a different way. First couldn't decide but then disengaged. Second sat it out. Third retreated. Fourth was destroyed. Fifth called for a surrender. And the sixth was unable to continue the fight.
And quite interestingly, not one of them simply switched sides straight away when offered to. With six ships, that would not have felt too forced, but with not a single ship turning against its own fleet we have raised the stakes for future confrontation. I really liked the one ship just shutting down and another turning around to run away without explaining themselves to anyone. It also adds an element of lots of captains being "Aaah! I don't know how to decide!"
This really all makes not only a good story in the moment, but also contributes a lot going forward.

[Caledonian]

The only - ONLY - purpose to Neroon's declaring himself Religious caste was to ensure Delenn would be put in charge. Neroon didn't trust the Warrior caste. He didn't trust the Religious caste, generally speaking. But he trusted Delenn, respected her, and considered her not only the best suited but possibly only person who could put Minbar back together.

Which is why he intervened to save her life, when by rights she should have died in the Wheel. Not because he liked her, but because he considered her indispensable. (Lennier could have done anything she could, except possibly be recognized by all Minbar as the suitable replacement.)

Ironically, his sacrificing himself revealed that he fully possessed all the Warrior virtues the Warrior leader praised but didn't actually have.

[factotum]

The only issue I have with the fight here is the widely varying levels of power that the White Stars possess. We know from earlier episodes that a White Star can take down a Shadow battlecrab solo--albeit the battlecrab was being jammed by Lyta at the time and they had to take the White Star's jumpdrive offline to do it, it's still something that no other younger race ship could have managed. Here, an entire fleet of White Stars seems to have great trouble taking on just six Omega class destroyers, two of which don't involve themselves in the fight at all. I suppose you could argue that Sheridan was holding back and not really trying to destroy the Omegas, but that directly contradicts his instructions to destroy any vessel that fires back at them.

I kind of think that the two major plotlines of this season (Earth civil war and the Shadow war) were the wrong way round, because by any metric the "saving Earth from Clark" thing ought to be a lot easier than "Kick out two races of ancient aliens who were technologically advanced when our ancestors were banging rocks together", so it ought to have been resolved first.

[Rakaydos]

The only issue I have with the fight here is the widely varying levels of power that the White Stars possess. We know from earlier episodes that a White Star can take down a Shadow battlecrab solo--albeit the battlecrab was being jammed by Lyta at the time and they had to take the White Star's jumpdrive offline to do it, it's still something that no other younger race ship could have managed. Here, an entire fleet of White Stars seems to have great trouble taking on just six Omega class destroyers, two of which don't involve themselves in the fight at all. I suppose you could argue that Sheridan was holding back and not really trying to destroy the Omegas, but that directly contradicts his instructions to destroy any vessel that fires back at them.

I kind of think that the two major plotlines of this season (Earth civil war and the Shadow war) were the wrong way round, because by any metric the "saving Earth from Clark" thing ought to be a lot easier than "Kick out two races of ancient aliens who were technologically advanced when our ancestors were banging rocks together", so it ought to have been resolved first.

That's the downside to the "adaptive hull" the vorlon tech gave them. They just arnt used to fighting primitive weapons.

[J-H]

The Earth Civil War was supposed to be in Season 5, but they got a cancellation notice and had speed up the Shadow arc, I believe.

The Civil War also fits some of the Tolkein-ish narrative arc of "We saved the galaxy, now we need to fix up our home since it's not going to all get wiped out."

[bguy]

I've always hated it myself. Neroon is literally the only sympathetic Warrior caste member we see. As we learn more about him he turns from an antagonist into a well-intentioned person of principles who just happens to disagree with the protagonists. The previous episode sets up the mutual respect between Neroon and Delenn - the only such respect we see on the show.

And then they have him declare himself Religious. That leaves zero sympathetic Warrior caste members, because Neroon was Religious. Neroon himself got redeemed by realizing that he is Religious, because the entire Warrior caste is apparently scum. The two castes didn't work together, everything was done by the Religious caste.

The problem is having the Minbari Civil War happen post-Shadow War. There's just no plausible justification for the Warrior Caste to try and take over once the Shadow threat is gone, so it's obviously a naked power grab which pretty much guarantees the Warrior Caste is going to be portrayed as moustache twirling villains.

Put the Warrior Caste powergrab earlier in the shows run (say right after the Shadows start openly attacking), and the Warrior Caste actually has at least arguably justifiable reasons for trying to seize power: both because they think they are the best qualified to lead the fight against the Shadows (Neroon's whole bit about "They work, you pray, we fight"), and because they are worried about the Religious Caste building a fleet of warships (which they would see as a threat that the Religious Caste might be planning to seize power.) And with the Warrior Caste having at least an arguable legitimate justification for their actions that would make it much more possible to have sympathetic Warrior Caste characters.

I kind of think that the two major plotlines of this season (Earth civil war and the Shadow war) were the wrong way round, because by any metric the "saving Earth from Clark" thing ought to be a lot easier than "Kick out two races of ancient aliens who were technologically advanced when our ancestors were banging rocks together", so it ought to have been resolved first.

Agreed. The Earth Civil War would have been a lot more interesting if it had happened as part of the Shadow War, so that Sheridan couldn't call on a fleet of White Stars (which were being used to fight the Shadows) and thus had to defeat Clark entirely with rebel Earth forces.

Indeed you could tie all three plotlines together. The Shadows start opening attacking the lesser races, which freaks out the Minbari Warrior Caste and prompts them to try and seize control of Minbar, which freaks out Clark (who see a Warrior Caste Minbari government as likely to attack Earth) and thus he has Earth attack the Minbari (who Clark thinks he can defeat due to the Shadow tech Earth has been developing for its own fleet and because he has promises of Shadow assistance against the Minbari.)

[Zarrgon]

But I really like how they started with 6 ships and every one of them dropped out of the fight in a different way. First couldn't decide but then disengaged. Second sat it out. Third retreated. Fourth was destroyed. Fifth called for a surrender. And the sixth was unable to continue the fight.

One of the best things about this episode is how each ship captain gets a personality, even with only tiny parts(and some never speak).

Two ships are all "Hail president Clark", including Evil Dr. Kelso from Scrubs :). Two are ''just following orders", and two are "well, we don't agree, but have not done anything to cross the line yet", including Makkie.

The only issue I have with the fight here is the widely varying levels of power that the White Stars possess. We know from earlier episodes that a White Star can take down a Shadow battlecrab solo--albeit the battlecrab was being jammed by Lyta at the time and they had to take the White Star's jumpdrive offline to do it, it's still something that no other younger race ship could have managed. Here, an entire fleet of White Stars seems to have great trouble taking on just six Omega class destroyers, two of which don't involve themselves in the fight at all. I suppose you could argue that Sheridan was holding back and not really trying to destroy the Omegas, but that directly contradicts his instructions to destroy any vessel that fires back at them.

There are power levels, but more then just that.

The Shadow Battlecrab is a poor warship. It's not well armored or maneuverable and only has a single offensive weapon. Right from the start we see the Narn damage shadow ships, though with Narn heavy battleships. The shadow beam weapon is an impressive Wave Motion Cutting Beam of Doom, but it's omin directional and can only hit one target at a time. And the battle crab has no other weapons. And while carriers, shadow battlecrabs just about never have a fighter screen.

When we do see a single White Star kill a jammed Shadow battle crab, it does take nearly ALL the white stars power, so that puts it at the extreme end of ''they can take one out". The Narn battleship does fine blasting the shadow crab, and chances are it has more firepower then a white star.

Omega class destroyers, and their fighter CAP, is a whole other type of space warfare. White stars can be taken out by a starfury attack, even more so if they have missiles. And Omega destroyers do have, at least some ''sphere point defense". And Omega destroyers do have armor too.

A white star can only take a slight hit on their nacelle, a direct hit from an Omega destroyer takes them out...like the one that crashed into the Pollox. While a Earth Destroyer can take dozens of hits, maybe more.

[factotum]

Right from the start we see the Narn damage shadow ships, though with Narn heavy battleships.
.
.
.
When we do see a single White Star kill a jammed Shadow battle crab, it does take nearly ALL the white stars power, so that puts it at the extreme end of ''they can take one out". The Narn battleship does fine blasting the shadow crab, and chances are it has more firepower then a white star.

We see Narn ships damaging a Shadow ship at the Battle of Gorash VII, but it takes three of them firing their main weapons at once and hitting exactly the same spot on the Shadow ship at the same time. The Narn cruiser that helps out the White Star after the incident I mentioned above does not manage to destroy the Shadow ship on its own, it just distracts it long enough for the White Star to turn and add its own firepower to the mix. So, in any one-on-one comparison, the White Star is more powerful than a Narn G'Quan cruiser.

As for fighter screens, I don't recall seeing them having much effect in the battle in this episode. The White Star that gets destroyed and goes on to crash into the forward section of an Omega is shot down by the Omega's weapons, not fighters.

[Yora]

Put the Warrior Caste powergrab earlier in the shows run (say right after the Shadows start openly attacking), and the Warrior Caste actually has at least arguably justifiable reasons for trying to seize power: both because they think they are the best qualified to lead the fight against the Shadows (Neroon's whole bit about "They work, you pray, we fight"), and because they are worried about the Religious Caste building a fleet of warships (which they would see as a threat that the Religious Caste might be planning to seize power.) And with the Warrior Caste having at least an arguable legitimate justification for their actions that would make it much more possible to have sympathetic Warrior Caste characters.

That's a great idea, I really like that.

And to make it really work, this one should not have any Shadows pulling strings in the background at all. This should all be down to Minbari being bad at talking and making compromises.

[factotum]

And to make it really work, this one should not have any Shadows pulling strings in the background at all. This should all be down to Minbari being bad at talking and making compromises.

Given their stated aims, the Shadows wouldn't bother with the Minbari anyway--their whole schtick is getting people to get more power by fighting everyone else, but the Minbari are already strongest among the younger races, they don't get much benefit from them fighting anyone.

[bguy]

Given their stated aims, the Shadows wouldn't bother with the Minbari anyway--their whole schtick is getting people to get more power by fighting everyone else, but the Minbari are already strongest among the younger races, they don't get much benefit from them fighting anyone.

Conceivably the Shadows could still test the Minbari by inducing Earth and the Centauri to jointly attack the Minbari. An Earth-Centauri alliance backed by the Shadows could give the Minbari a good fight, and while it would be some what off-message for the Shadows to encourage two races to cooperate, they could justify it as a temporary expedient and plan to turn the humans and Centauri against each other if they manage to defeat the Minbari.

[factotum]

I'm not convinced. We already know what happens when Earth alone faces the Minbari (not only do they get soundly beaten, but it's canonical that only Sheridan ever won in a straight up battle--and he had to use trickery and mines to do it). Londo says they didn't mess with the Minbari even when the Centauri were at the height of their power, and I'm not sure the significantly weaker Centauri empire that exists in the "present day" would add enough to Earth's power to make it anything close to an even fight.

[bguy]

I'm not convinced. We already know what happens when Earth alone faces the Minbari (not only do they get soundly beaten, but it's canonical that only Sheridan ever won in a straight up battle--and he had to use trickery and mines to do it). Londo says they didn't mess with the Minbari even when the Centauri were at the height of their power, and I'm not sure the significantly weaker Centauri empire that exists in the "present day" would add enough to Earth's power to make it anything close to an even fight.

Well they would also presumably get some help from the Shadows as I doubt either Clark or Refa would be willing to commit to war with the Minbari absent some tangible support from the Shadows. And if the Shadows provide a comparable level of support to this hypothetical Earth-Centauri alliance that they provided the Centauri against the Narn (say by knocking out a couple of Minbari bases and maybe taking out a squadron or two of Minbari warships), that would certainly go a long way towards equalizing the fight.

Spoiler

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There's also the fact that Earth itself is starting to augment its fleet with Shadow tech. The Shadow Omegas we see a little later in the season were able to give a fleet of White Stars a good fight, so they would presumably be able to hold their own against Minbari capital ships as well, and Earth appears to have the ability to mass produce this tech. (Since they deployed a whole squadron of Shadow Omegas against the Rebel fleet.) If Earth starts spamming Shadow Omegas the Minbari could be in real trouble against an Earth-Centauri alliance.

[GrayDeath]

Honestly, all Earth and Centauri would need from the shadows to pull this off would be:

Earth: Sensors that can always target all Minbari Ships

Centauri: A competent Emperor that has the full Support of the reestablished Centauri Empire.

Dont forget, the Firepower of the Omegas is up there with the best, and they can take a few hits as well. And the Centauri do have LOADS of Ships that on a one on one basis are at least about 45-50% of a same Size Minbari Ship.

It never seems that the Minbari have a particularly large fleet (remember Delenns deeclaration to GKar on WHY the Minbari didnt help).

So yeah, if the Vorlons ahd sent a Moron Embassador from the Start, and the Shadows had been a bit more on the ball with the Centauri, this all could ahve gone completely different ways.

[Yora]

Conceivably the Shadows could still test the Minbari by inducing Earth and the Centauri to jointly attack the Minbari. An Earth-Centauri alliance backed by the Shadows could give the Minbari a good fight, and while it would be some what off-message for the Shadows to encourage two races to cooperate, they could justify it as a temporary expedient and plan to turn the humans and Centauri against each other if they manage to defeat the Minbari.

I was thinking that the Shadows are assuming the Minbari to be confirmed Vorlon allies and would just want to weaken them. But causing internal strife would not make any sense. By the Shadow's on logic, violent conflict makes people stronger, not weaker.
If the Shadows are still around, this would mean the Vorlons are still around too, and they seem to be in relatively close contact with the Minbari, so it probably would be hard for the Shadows to get any foothold.

[bguy]

I was thinking that the Shadows are assuming the Minbari to be confirmed Vorlon allies and would just want to weaken them. But causing internal strife would not make any sense. By the Shadow's on logic, violent conflict makes people stronger, not weaker.
If the Shadows are still around, this would mean the Vorlons are still around too, and they seem to be in relatively close contact with the Minbari, so it probably would be hard for the Shadows to get any foothold.

I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here. The scenario I gave didn't involve the Shadows trying to subvert the Minbari from within. It had them using their pawns in other governments (Clark in the Earth Alliance, and either Londo or Refa in the Centauri Republic) to attack the Minbari. The Shadows don't need a foothold with the Minbari to test them if they can have their pawns in the other races attack the Minbari.

That said I'm not sure the Shadows ever completely wrote off the Minbari either. Remember way back in Season 1, Morden did try and meet with Delenn just like he did with Londo and G'Kar. That suggests the Shadows were at least somewhat open to the idea of trying to subvert the Minbari. Season 1 also had several references to a Warrior Caste clan, the Wind Swords, that sounded hyper-militaristic. If the Windswords were that extreme they might have been open to working with the Shadows under the right circumstances.

[Yora]

With the Shadows controlling Refa's and Londo's faction to gain control of the throne, and PsiCorp and Clark to replace the president on Earth, everyone would assume that the Shadows are manipulating the Warriors to overthrow the Priests and gain control of the Minbari. But then it turns out the civil war was not set up by an external evil force, but has to be blamed entirely on the Minbari being bad at cooperating with each other.
The Shadows are great antagonists, but I think it completely fits the themes of the show that the good guys realize that it's not black and white and you can simply have two sides who both have good intentions ending up fighting each other.
There's no such conflict in the show, and I think this half-hearted attempt at a Minbari civil war is a great candidate for that.

[Grey Watcher]

Something that occurred to me last night: I think part of the reason the Minbari civil war reads as insufficiently set up is that it appears so abruptly. In S4:E9, Delenn goes to Minbar and does not encounter any problems beyond the personal censure over he engagement to Sheridan. Two episodes later, things are desperate enough that someone in her own faction feels he needs to kidnap her and drag her to negotiations with a mysterious and questionable third party.

By contrast, the shows other major conflicts are set up so far in advance. The Narn-Centauri war is already in progress in S1:E1. The Earth Alliance civil war has hints of the assassination of Santiago starting somewhere in Season 1. While there's been tension between the priests and the warriors all along, the open violence seems to start quite abruptly.

[factotum]

That was presumably down to the truncated schedule--I guess the Minbari civil war would have been part of Season 5 in the original plan.

[The Glyphstone]

If the idea for the new council was that priests and warriors are too focused, wouldn't it have been better to have, say, 2 of each and 3 workers, or a 3/3/5 split? With a 2/2/5 split you've essentially put the workers in charge completely, since they have a majority even if the priests and warriors vote together. I guess they just didnt want to build a new council chamber without 9 seats at the table.

[Grey Watcher]

If the idea for the new council was that priests and warriors are too focused, wouldn't it have been better to have, say, 2 of each and 3 workers, or a 3/3/5 split? With a 2/2/5 split you've essentially put the workers in charge completely, since they have a majority even if the priests and warriors vote together. I guess they just didnt want to build a new council chamber without 9 seats at the table.

I think the point is very much to make it impossible to overcome a unified Worker caste bloc. The implication is that, under the old system, the priests tend to all vote together and the warriors tend to all vote together, so the Workers have leverage as tiebreakers but are still ultimately pressured into just picking from the options that the two factions present. In the new arrangement, the Worker caste is in a much stronger position to actually make policy rather than simply choosing to follow either warriors or priests. It gives them a chance to say, "you're both wrong, we're doing this instead" or "you each make good points, so here's the compromise we're going with."

[Morgaln]

I think the point is very much to make it impossible to overcome a unified Worker caste bloc. The implication is that, under the old system, the priests tend to all vote together and the warriors tend to all vote together, so the Workers have leverage as tiebreakers but are still ultimately pressured into just picking from the options that the two factions present. In the new arrangement, the Worker caste is in a much stronger position to actually make policy rather than simply choosing to follow either warriors or priests. It gives them a chance to say, "you're both wrong, we're doing this instead" or "you each make good points, so here's the compromise we're going with."

I think worker caste is also supposed to be the Minbari version of the "common man from the street". That makes it the equivalent of putting power in the hand of the people.

[Yora]

S4E16: Exercise of Vital Powers

Ivanova makes a news update that a second colony is now secured by the rebels and an EarthForce outpost has switched sides as well.

Garibaldi is arriving back at Mars, believing that something changed Sherridan when he went to Zahadum and now he wants to make himself a great dictator. His return to Mars is clearly not a pleasant one and he wished he'd never have to take step on the planet ever again, almost having been killed three times while he was there. Somehow Edgars got him and his henchman Wade through the blockade, and insists that Garibaldi has to be blindfolded while being taken to his secret hiding place.

Fraklin is frustrated that he can't safely remove the Shadow implants from the frozen telepaths. Zack has a job for Lyta to help a witness identify a criminal. While they are talking in medlab she senses something from the telepath Franklin was just studying, and he suddenly wakes up. He tries to say something to her but falls unconscious again.

When Garibaldi arrives at Edgars house, Lise meets him first and tells him he shouldn't have come at this time. Edgars shows up shortly after and tells her not to worry, and also gives her a hint to shoo off. He asks Garibaldi why he insisted on coming to visit now and Garibaldi says he wants to know who he's really working for and what Edgars' true goals are. He thinks the president has to be removed, and Edgars agrees with him that it must not be done by the military. Edgars likes Garibaldi and considers letting him in on his full plans, but still has to be more certain that Garibaldi can't fully be trusted.

Lyta tells Franklin that she thought she was hearing a Shadow ship and instinctively tried to block it out, and somehow that made the other telepath wake up.

Garibaldi is dragged from his room in the middle of the night and taken to an interrogation room with a PsiCorp telepath. Edgars tells him over speakers that the telepath has no information what their business is about and is only there to confirm that he's not lying to his questions. He had him dragged out of his bed to not give him any time to prepare for the questioning and make him easier to read by the telepath.
His first question is what Garibaldi thinks about telepaths. Garibaldi says he doesn't trust them because they can read the minds of normal people and communicate with each other with no way to listen in, and all normal people have is their word that they aren't doing it. Edgars wants to know if Garibaldi really has the means to snatch away Sherridan and deliver him to him. And just before the ends he also asks if he still loves Lise, which Garibaldi denies. As he leaves, the telepath gives the signal that the last thing was a lie.
As the telepath is leaving she is killed by Wade.

Franklin does another trial to wake up the telepath with Lyta assisting him. They try to wake him up slowly and when he's awake he knocks away Franklin and tries to kill himself, but Lyta telepathically restrains him until he falls unconscious again.

The next morning Garibaldi has a talk with Edgars, who opens up that he believes PsiCorp is trying to take over the world and that they have the means to do so. They don't need to be a majority or have access to overwhelming military force because they already have the ear of the president. If Sherridan threatens Clark's rule on Earth, he's probably going to give PsiCorps whatever powers they say they need to stop the rebels, and then there will be no hope to ever get rid of them again. Edgars thinks that the industrialist billionaires have been running the Earth Alliance for a long time but never felt the need to make their power known. They have been conspiring to remove Clark and take care of PsiCorps for some time, but Sherridan advancing on Earth is disrupting everything. So they need to find a way to stop him,

Ivanova calls Sherridan to let him know an EarthForce squadron was send to attack Babylon 5 earlier that day but the ships announced that they want to join the rebels as soon as they arrived. Sherridan says he want to talk with Franklin and asks him how he's coming along with the telepaths. Franklin says there's some progress but Sherridan keeps pushing him that it's urgent. Franklin tells him he really needs to know what exactly Sherridan is planning with the telepaths and why it is so important, and after some consideration Sherridan switches to a higher security encoding and tells Franklin to have everyone else leave the room.
When he leaves his office Lyta wants to talk to Franklin and notices that he's really not feeling alright. He says Sherridan asked him to do something that he never thought he would hear, but he can't deny that it will be necessary. He asks Lyta if she's available for a longer assignment because they need to be leaving for Mars.

Edgars is going to a hidden lab in his basement where Wade is watching over some scientists studying three extremely sick presumed telepaths. He wants to see how they are doing himself and is satisfied to see that they are certain to die. He tells Wade there is no point in running the experiment any longer and to have them killed, as there's no need to keep them in pain.

He then tells Garibaldi that they need to kidnap Sherridan to make Clark think he's safe so he and his friends can arrange things to quietly overthrow him. Garibaldi has to think about it for a while and then decides to tell Edgars that they can find Sherridan's father by a rare imported medicine he has to take. Shouldn't be hard for a giant medical company to find him and then they can lure Sherridan into a trap.

--

In the opening scene Garibaldi is thinking about Sherridan "maybe he thinks he's Alexander the Great, maybe he thinks he's John the Baptist, and maybe he thinks he can take over the whole opperation himself." They didn't want to say it on American TV in the 90s, but the logical way to end that statement would be "or maybe he thinks he's Jesus himself". I assume lots of Americans would have caught that hint as well.

When Wade first appeared I thought he's another Nightwatch goon like the ones in Season 2. But the more scenes he appears in, the more he feels like someone who is much smarter and also much more dangerous. Not sure if that was intentional, but I like it.

And man, Edgars is creepy. Not because he acting in an uncomfortable way, but because he's disturbingly normal. He's not stupid, he's not crazy, he's not even evil in most senses of the word. There are plenty of villains in fiction who are pure dark evil but claim they are only doing what is necessary and think that makes them superior in some way. Edgars isn't like that. We established in S4E12: Conflicts of Interest that Edgars has his researchers working on something related to a genetic vulnerability to disease in telepaths, and he made it clear this episode that he considers telepaths a major threat to humanity. So the diseased people in his basement are pretty obviously telepaths. Infecting a specific part of the population with a deadly plague is of course super evil, but he comes across as taking no joy in it. But it doesn't bother him either. It's unfortunate, but there's no alternative.
And that's what makes him creepy. He's not a megalomanic visionary, but simply a soulless technocrat. He says he and his friends have controlled the EarthAlliance for a very long time, but they have no desire to get politically involved. Their power goes beyond politics and public opinion. They don't desire support or gratitude, they just run things the way they think they should be. They are very different people from the typical garden variety of nationalistic populists like Clark.

"The Exercise of Vital Powers" turns out not to be a phrase from American constitutional theory but simply another expression of the "Will to Power" from Friedrich Nietzsche. But in popular media Will to Power is almost universally misunderstood as being a desire to rule (for which Nitzsche's term is "Will to Might"), so it makes sense to use a different term for what I think is basically the same thing. A desire for self-determination, or for agency as it's called in storytelling. Edgars thinks that this is key to human happiness, and that rule by the telepaths would take that away from normal humans.
Now that I think of it, the funny thing is that his own control of society by billionaire technocrats is exactly the same thing. People have their agency taken away without knowing it. He's doing just the thing that he suspects the telepaths to plan. And I don't think it's hypocrisy on his part. He comes across as actually not seeing the similarity.

This episode is rated relatively poorly compared to the rest of the season, and I can see why. It's different from what episodes in this show usually are. You don't really get space ships, aliens, and uniforms in this episode and instead it looks into a part of the world that was never really mentioned before. But I think what they do with it is done really quite well. Edgars is of course carrying the whole episode and I feel Wade adds quite a lot as well with the few scenes he has. And I think we're also getting a very memorable performance from Garibaldi here.
I remember when I saw the show back when I was 13, and again when I was 17 or so, I really did not like this story arc at all. But now I am really enjoying it. This very much reminds me of when I covered the Deep Space Nine Episode Prodigal Daughter in the last season. It's apparently a very unpopular episode but I really loved it.

[GrayDeath]

I am with you there.

When I first watched B 5 (and on my first rewatches when I got the DVD`s) i didnt like the Garibaldi/Edgars Plot at all.

Nowadays, it is even more important to understand it (and hence more pleaseing to see a show in the 90ies to ahve done it, and well) seeing where our World seems to be headed...