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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Nerdomancer in the Playground Moderator
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Welcome to Round 35 of the Villainous Competition!

    Previous Competitions


    We're a little different than most of the optimization threads. We run on CR instead of ECL.

    Contestants:
    You will need to present a write-up of your build with at least one of the following points: 5 CR, 10 CR 15 CR, 20 CR, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20 CR build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

    Secret Laboratory:
    Competitors will be free to use any official 1st party (WotC) 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon Compendium is allowed, but Dragon magazine is disallowed. Unearthed Arcana is allowed. Unupdated 3.0 materials, as well as web exclusives by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt or Generic Classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Item Familiars and Taint are also banned from the competition. Leadership and all similar abilities are banned for sanity reasons.
    Builds that are fully monstrous are allowed at no penalty. All class levels are to be added on as associated class levels.

    Elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) is the assumed ability score generation method.
    Some monstrous characters can technically qualify for Epic feats as soon as their ECL is over 20. While regular Epic feats will be allowed, Epic Spellcasting and all other Epic feats that affect spells, psionic powers, or item creation are not permitted. Including these would give an unfair advantage over standard characters. For Incarnum characters, Epic Open Chakra feats are allowed; other Epic Incarnum feats are not. The Essentia Capacity increases for Epic capacity as described on p. 212. For all characters, please note that Racial Hit Dice do not count towards Epic Progression; use the regular progression even if the BAB ends up higher than 20.

    Deadlines:
    Contestants will have until So April 11th, 6pm MST is the new deadline. to create their builds and PM them to the Supreme Chancellor. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until whenever to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted. Deadlines are subject to extension as/if required.

    Judging:
    Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated on a scale from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Build Elegance, Competence and Power, Memorable Villainy.
    Keep these questions in mind when judging each category:
    Originality - Is it unexpected?
    Build Elegance - Is it mechanically pretty?
    Competence and Power - Can it do what the concept asks of it? Is this a powerfully-built character?
    Memorable Villainy - Is this a villain with style? Will it be the BBEG players long to finally kill and then talk about for weeks?
    Unearthed Arcana can be penalized for elegance if the specific feature seems unnecessary or makes the playing field unfair (In this case, you can give a 1 if it makes the field unfair.)
    Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. As the Iron Chef competition states, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
    You may not judge if you entered the contest, unless you withdraw your submission.

    Presentation:
    Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!

    Note:
    There is now a hard limit on two (2) entries per competitor.

    Using the table below, the easiest way to use it is to go to the top left of the private message, and click the little a/A icon. It allows you to see what you're writing.
    Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.
    Spoiler
    Show
    CR Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features
    1 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    2 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    3 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    4 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    5 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    6 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    7 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    8 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    9 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    10 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    11 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    12 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    13 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    14 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    15 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    16 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    17 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    18 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    19 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    20 New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
    Code immediately below (spoiler).
    Spoiler
    Show
    [table="class: head alt1 alt2"]
    [tr]
    [th][B]CR[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Class[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Base Attack Bonus[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Fort Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Ref Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Will Save[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Skills[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Feats[/B][/th]
    [th][B]Class Features[/B][/th]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]1[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]2[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]3[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]4[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]5[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]6[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]7[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]8[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]9[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]10[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]11[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]12[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]13[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]14[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]15[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]16[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]17[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]18[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]19[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]20[/td]
    [td]New Class Level[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]+x[/td]
    [td]Skills[/td]
    [td]Feats[/td]
    [td]New Class Abilities[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]

    You can use the table below for Spells.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Spells per Day/Spells Known
    Spells per Day/Spells Known
    Level 0lvl 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
    1st - - - - - - - - - -
    2nd - - - - - - - - - -
    3rd - - - - - - - - - -
    4th - - - - - - - - - -
    5th - - - - - - - - - -
    6th - - - - - - - - - -
    7th - - - - - - - - - -
    8th - - - - - - - - - -
    9th - - - - - - - - - -
    10th - - - - - - - - - -
    11th - - - - - - - - - -
    12th - - - - - - - - - -
    13th - - - - - - - - - -
    14th - - - - - - - - - -
    15th - - - - - - - - - -
    16th - - - - - - - - - -
    17th - - - - - - - - - -
    18th - - - - - - - - - -
    19th - - - - - - - - - -
    20th - - - - - - - - - -
    Code Immediately Below,
    Spoiler
    Show

    [B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
    [B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
    [table="class:head alt1 alt2"]
    [tr]
    [th][B]Level[/B][/th]
    [th][B]0lvl[/B][/th]
    [th][B]1st[/B][/th]
    [th][B]2nd[/B][/th]
    [th][B]3rd[/B][/th]
    [th][B]4th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]5th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]6th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]7th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]8th[/B][/th]
    [th][B]9th[/B][/th]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]1st[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]2nd[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]3rd[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]4th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]5th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]6th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]7th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]8th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]9th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]10th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]11th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]12th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]13th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]14th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]15th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]16th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]17th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]18th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]19th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [tr]
    [td]20th[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [td]-[/td]
    [/tr]
    [/table]


    Speculation:
    Please don’t post or speculate on possible builds until the reveal, in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.
    Once builds are revealed, please do not comment on errors or rules issues on entries unless you are a judge. If you have such a comment, wait until the final reveal to post it.

    Get ready to share those Evil thoughts. This edition’s villain is:

    I shall call him… MINI ME!



    Limitations


    • all builds must use Leadership
    • leadership score can only be used to acquire a Cohort
    • your build will be judged on how you and your Cohort work together at your snap-shotted level
    • Dragon Cohort is still banned for this round
    • Your Cohort must be of the same race and alignment as you
    • You must use the same Cohort for the entire build (it levels as appropriate)
    • Your cohort can NOT take leadership as well
    • Memorable Villainy will be judged on a 10 point scale for this round
    • Dvati is banned for this round
    • Must be Evil


    We will award 1st through 3rd places, and a possible Honorable Mention.
    So, start your evil plotting!

    Submission:
    To standardize Entries, please use this format when sending it in:

    PM: Jdizzlean
    Subject: Villainous Competition 35, Name of your Entry
    For Revisions and disputes, do the same thing. It makes it easier for me finding the entries in my mail box.
    More questions? PM me with Villainous Competition 35 Questions in the header.

    Tips for submitting your entry, provided by Weaselguy:
    - Use capitalization and punctuation, correctly.
    - Make good use of Spoilers, for cleanliness.
    - Don't forget your sources. If it's something that can be found in the contents section, then book title seems to be fine. Obscure stuff, may want to include page number too.
    - DeviantArt has about 9 billion pictures that you can reference, I can almost guarantee you can find one there to fit your character.
    - Make good use of tables. In addition to the Build table and the Spells table, I like doing on e for my Ability Scores, just to keep it neat.
    - Do a build stub at the top of your Build Table, something like Wizard 2/Fighter 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 10


    As always: let's keep it nice.

    I'll mention that again - LET'S KEEP IT NICE! Bickering, name calling and nasty comments on the entries or other forum members are not tolerated.


    New competition rule: if I feel an individual has been overly disruptive during the course of competition discussion, I will not be accepting and revealing any entries from that individual, and they will also not be allowed to judge. Any judging they enter will not be taken into account for the final tally.

    Spoiler
    Show
    It's sad that it had to come to this, but here's a list of permanently banned (from this Villainous Competition) members:

    Novolin
    Yklikt
    Last edited by jdizzlean; Yesterday at 06:35 PM.
    Spoiler: Medals & Current Characters
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    More sources, more choices, more power. Welcome to D&D.
    The Mod Life Crisis If you need me to address a thread as a Moderator, please include a link

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Nerdomancer in the Playground Moderator
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Clarifications

    Unearthed Arcana variant rules are limited: The variant character options (such as Wildshape Ranger and Thug Fighter) should not be penalized. Flaws and traits may be penalized by judges, whereas item familiars, gestalt, alternate skill systems, alternate magic systems, alternate crafting rules, generic base classes, LA buyoff, fractional saves/BAB, and bloodlines are banned. Anything not mentioned here is up to individual judges.

    d20 Rokugan is not allowed material.

    The Dragon Magazine update for Oriental Adventures is in use.

    Leadership is banned. Any material that grants you leadership without you specifically taking it should be ignored and may not be traded away for another feat or ACF. Undead Leadership and Dragon Cohort are likewise banned. Wild Cohort and Obtain Familiar are allowed. If you are not sure if a specific feat violates the 'no leadership' rule, err on the side of caution, or ask me.

    However, Leadership may be taken to qualify for another feat or class (such as the Great Captain feat or Legendary Leader prestige class), though a character still doesn't get its usual benefit in those cases. This is to allow characters to access unproblematic material that'd otherwise be made unavailable because of the Leadership ban.

    On the subject of messaging the chair (me), a few guidelines:
    - I am not here to give critiques on your build or guess how the judges might score it!
    - For entries, please keep the entry to no more than 2 message, if at all possible.
    - For entries, don't expect me to search through your entry and edit in or out material. Entries should be sent to me complete - if there is a later revision, re-submit the full build. PLEASE DON'T INCLUDE TEXT IN YOUR SUBMISSION YOU WANT ME TO EDIT OUT FOR THE POST - SUBMIT IT TO ME EXACTLY HOW I WILL POST THE FINISHED PRODUCT.
    - Please make sure the name of your entry is clearly present in the message.




    Everyone, have fun!

    ADDITIONAL:

    after reviewing it all, i'll make 2 stipulations:

    1. You may use the minion/lackey rules to build your character, but you are restricted to 1 minion, however you must take either leadership, undead leadership, or thrallherd as well

    -OR-

    2. you can ignore the minion/lackey rules and build your cohort(s) per the usual rules to leadership et al so that CR=ECL for the purposes of determining the lvl at which a cohort(s) can be gained, and the rate/amount at which they level along with you.
    Last edited by jdizzlean; 2020-01-04 at 04:49 AM.
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    This is what I've been waiting for! Although I'm mostly surprised that it's a villainous competition build and not an iron chef or jyw.
    Can you clarify just how much of a match your races have to be? Like can a stoutheart Halfling recruit a jungle Halfling, a ghast recruit a ghoul, a dread wraith recruit a wraith? A longhorn minotaur recruit a krynn minotaur? Just as random examples.

    I'd like to bring up the Minion and Lackey rules from exemplars of evil, which is very akin to leadership, but might mesh better with this competition.

    Do you want two build writeups, or..?

    Sorry in advance for asking for clarification (like we do every round)
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    1. On the topic of being under the same race, any confirmation if it is within the spirit of the round to also having the same racial HD progression?

    2. How about having the same templates?

    3. Must Leadership be taken at the soonest possible level?

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    I'm getting some ideas, but I'l need to see how certain things work out...

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    So let me see if I understood your clarification section: Leadership and Undead Leadership are allowed, and both fulfill the requirement for the round, but Dragon Cohort is still forbidden? And all other cohorts, as normal, are separate from Leadership?

    Also, does Thrallherd qualify for the requirements, or not?

    And +1 to the race specificity question.
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    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

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    Very interesting. I'd like to try and get one in this round...

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    1. On the topic of being under the same race, any confirmation if it is within the spirit of the round to also having the same racial HD progression?
    Awaiting answer from the chair, but since it's not specified, I'd day safe to assume no.

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    2. How about having the same templates?
    Interesting, but again not specified.

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    3. Must Leadership be taken at the soonest possible level?
    Awaiting answer from the chair, but since it's not specified, I'd day safe to assume no.

    ...it sometimes feels like people want to impose extra restrictions on themselves!

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Very interesting. I'd like to try and get one in this round...



    Awaiting answer from the chair, but since it's not specified, I'd day safe to assume no.



    Interesting, but again not specified.



    Awaiting answer from the chair, but since it's not specified, I'd day safe to assume no.

    ...it sometimes feels like people want to impose extra restrictions on themselves!
    Last round has contestants losing points over a difference.of interpretation that would've been very mich fixed one way or the other if edge cases like this had been specified upfront by the chair, or had been questioned by the participants. These questions are.doing what we should've done more last round (and we still did it plenty).

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Race wise:

    i think variants of the same base race are fine, so for example if you wanted to be a human, you could use a neanderthal as your cohort.

    as for templates, if it is a template that has to be taken at creation, then you must both have it, if it can be taken later, you can choose whether you both have it or not. racial progression can be different HD wise, as long as the races are the same per the above example

    you could use the minion/lackey stuff if you wanted to, but 1) it doesn't require a feat expenditure like leadership does, and 2)it is based off CR+CHA, making it highly abusable. so for this round, you still must take leadership, what you do w/ it from there is up to you, and your ability to convince the judge/s that it fits the theme..

    Your build write up should include an explanation of your cohort, and how you work together. the level of detail is up to you

    when you take leadership, and when you gain your cohort is up to you to build however you'd like

    thrallherd would qualify, however you still must take (and therefor get no benefit of) the leadership feat
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Quote Originally Posted by jdizzlean View Post
    Race wise:

    i think variants of the same base race are fine, so for example if you wanted to be a human, you could use a neanderthal as your cohort.

    as for templates, if it is a template that has to be taken at creation, then you must both have it, if it can be taken later, you can choose whether you both have it or not. racial progression can be different HD wise, as long as the races are the same per the above example
    What about variable templates? For example: Half-Dragon, D&D Archives' revised Half-Fiend, Lycanthrope, and many others that let you choose a specific major variation on the template?
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    What about variable templates? For example: Half-Dragon, D&D Archives' revised Half-Fiend, Lycanthrope, and many others that let you choose a specific major variation on the template?
    sorry, i meant to comment on that.

    if it's something that requires a specific choice, like the color of dragon for example, then you both must be that specific choice, etc.
    unless of course it is something that can be acquired after creation/birth, in which case of course you have carte blanche as that ties in w/ the other limitations/clarifications
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Just to confirm, Undead Leadership is okay? I don't think we got a definite answer on that one.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdizzlean View Post
    i think variants of the same base race are fine, so for example if you wanted to be a human, you could use a neanderthal as your cohort.
    What about the other way around, if we had a neanderthal villain with a human cohort?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdizzlean View Post
    you could use the minion/lackey stuff if you wanted to, but 1) it doesn't require a feat expenditure like leadership does, and 2)it is based off CR+CHA, making it highly abusable. so for this round, you still must take leadership, what you do w/ it from there is up to you, and your ability to convince the judge/s that it fits the theme..
    So we can use include minions and lackeys as part of the build if we want? Would they be subject to the same race and alignment requirements as the cohort?

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    the usual restriction on undead leadership is struck out in the second post, meaning that the usual restriction is not in play.

    yes, you could go either way on races, as human vs neanderthal is the same thing, simply a variant of each other.

    yes, you could include lackeys and minions, or more likely only lackeys, however its more of a flavor ingredient, and not a power one if you did, otherwise you may run into the same issue as last time where the judge may ding you for going against the spirit of the round (cohort only, no peons.) but if you wish to include it, by all means have at it.
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Would builds with multiple cohorts be a violation?

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    i suppose if you can find a way to make that work w/in the restrictions set forth, more power to you (see what i did there :P )
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    I have an idea that I think will be a lot of fun this time!

    Should we also assume that we are building our cohorts with an elite array?
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    sure, why not....
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Ineresting go this round.

    I think I have some Ideas, now lets see if I can find the time this time (as Mini Me sadly runs of my Action economy :P )-
    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”


    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    got a Silly Idea(tm) ...

    EDIT:

    You know, i got a question

    If i pick a race that isn't a legal Player Race (but given that we're working with CR, is perfectly valid), how do i calculate my Leadership Score (given that it's off ECL) and which level my Cohorts can advance to (again, ECL)
    Last edited by Sian; 2019-12-31 at 03:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Since Leadership so far has always been banned, I dont think it came up yet.

    I would probably siply go by CR=ECL for that calculation, to avoid additional Humbug.
    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”


    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sian View Post
    You know, i got a question

    If i pick a race that isn't a legal Player Race (but given that we're working with CR, is perfectly valid), how do i calculate my Leadership Score (given that it's off ECL) and which level my Cohorts can advance to (again, ECL)
    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    Since Leadership so far has always been banned, I dont think it came up yet.

    I would probably siply go by CR=ECL for that calculation, to avoid additional Humbug.
    CR = ECL has absolutely no basis in RAW. There's no call for simply making things up, unless one happens to be the Chairman.

    The Leadership score is, in fact, not calculated based on ECL but rather character level, and character level also determines what level a cohort may advance to, as per:

    Quote Originally Posted by Leadership
    If a cohort gains enough XP to bring it to a level one lower than the associated PC’s character level, the cohort does not gain the new level—its new XP total is 1 less than the amount needed attain the next level.
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by Also Leadership
    Several factors can affect a character’s Leadership score, causing it to vary from the base score (character level + Cha modifier).
    So there's no problem calculating either Leadership Score or Cohort Level even with a non-playable race, according to the rules.

    However, since XP is in any case governed by ECL, it would seem that the cohort's level is still bounded by ECL.

    Would the cohort, then, have to be of a playable race (or one with a (cohort) LA)? That's what I'm unsure of. Anyone with an answer?

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Quote Originally Posted by NontheistCleric View Post
    CR = ECL has absolutely no basis in RAW. There's no call for simply making things up, unless one happens to be the Chairman.

    The Leadership score is, in fact, not calculated based on ECL but rather character level, and character level also determines what level a cohort may advance to, as per:



    and



    So there's no problem calculating either Leadership Score or Cohort Level even with a non-playable race, according to the rules.

    However, since XP is in any case governed by ECL, it would seem that the cohort's level is still bounded by ECL.

    Would the cohort, then, have to be of a playable race (or one with a (cohort) LA)? That's what I'm unsure of. Anyone with an answer?
    I'd like an official chairman ruling on this. Seems like either way could give interesting interactions. Might make some build ideas illegal or legal depending on which way it goes.
    Last edited by MisterKaws; 2020-01-01 at 11:08 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Okay, I've just posed this question in the Simple RAW thread. Hopefully that will increase our chances of an official answer.

    Though a Chairman ruling would still be appreciated, since his word is, of course, supreme.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    i'm not ignoring it, i just need to carve some time out to really go over it. post your raw ruling here. i'm inclined to simply state that cr=cl for the purposes of what lvl cohort you can have, but i want to go over all the material.
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Quote Originally Posted by jdizzlean View Post
    i'm not ignoring it, i just need to carve some time out to really go over it. post your raw ruling here. i'm inclined to simply state that cr=cl for the purposes of what lvl cohort you can have, but i want to go over all the material.
    That ruling would be a definite downgrade from RAW, but I'm inclined to agree that it be implemented because the alternative is hot nonsense that shifts the contest away from "figure out how to make two builds that work together" into "how hard can I abuse this exploit to circumvent the contest rules without technically breaking them". Or at least, it does for me, since the build I'm halfway through making is basically nothing but that.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    That ruling would be a definite downgrade from RAW, but I'm inclined to agree that it be implemented because the alternative is hot nonsense that shifts the contest away from "figure out how to make two builds that work together" into "how hard can I abuse this exploit to circumvent the contest rules without technically breaking them". Or at least, it does for me, since the build I'm halfway through making is basically nothing but that.
    WHich is why I suggested it as a possiblity above, but was shot down" as not being called for, due to me not being the chair. ^^

    Overall, as most of the time, I tend to go for the solution which is the easiest to implement without oening up further Humbug (unless of course said Humbug is the point^^).

    Ah well, lets see if there is something RAWish to be found.
    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”


    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    WHich is why I suggested it as a possiblity above, but was shot down" as not being called for, due to me not being the chair. ^^

    Overall, as most of the time, I tend to go for the solution which is the easiest to implement without oening up further Humbug (unless of course said Humbug is the point^^).

    Ah well, lets see if there is something RAWish to be found.
    I doubt the humbug nonsense is the point. If the contest is meant to be a reflection of how a DM would approach building a villain for the contest concept, they wouldn't take Leadership they'd just build two NPCs that work well with each other; and, more to the point, the particular hot nonsense is less "how a DM would build this" and more "exploiting the letter of the rules in both Leadership and the Contest Rules to achieve something that flagrantly violate the intentions of the contest rules".

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    I'd like an official chairman ruling on this. Seems like either way could give interesting interactions. Might make some build ideas illegal or legal depending on which way it goes.
    Obviously the chairman has final say, but the simplest way may be to calculate ECL treating LA - as LA +0. So for LA - creatures, ECL = RHD + class levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdizzlean View Post
    i'm not ignoring it, i just need to carve some time out to really go over it. post your raw ruling here. i'm inclined to simply state that cr=cl for the purposes of what lvl cohort you can have, but i want to go over all the material.
    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    That ruling would be a definite downgrade from RAW
    Depends on whether the Chairman meant CR=CL for determining the level the cohort level is reduced from, or the cohort's level itself, which I find more likely given that such a solution would address the question of 'can LA: - creatures be cohorts' and that the previous issue of how to calculate the level the cohort level is reduced from was already resolved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Obviously the chairman has final say, but the simplest way may be to calculate ECL treating LA - as LA +0. So for LA - creatures, ECL = RHD + class levels.
    I mean, this is actually how it works. ECL is just HD+LA, so absent LA ECL is simply equal to HD, although such a character would not be PC-legal.

    All that being said, the reply from the RAW thread has come back. It is as follows:

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Cohorts have to be within a particular level range. That requires an ECL. Can't have a level less than X if you don't have a level. Also, since cohorts use xp to level up and so forth, even if you could have a cohort without an ECL, it would never be able to level up.
    Of course, since we are building NPCs by CR here, XP isn't a factor in their creation anyway, but it seems to make sense. Since a PC couldn't attract a cohort incapable of gaining XP with the feat, it's only fair an NPC would not be able to.

    That's leaving aside the fact that the answer seems to be conflating having LA with having an ECL, which as per

    Quote Originally Posted by D&D glossary
    A creature's ECL is the sum of its Hit Dice (including class levels) and level adjustment.
    is not true, as without LA the ECL would still be the sum of the HD themselves, but that isn't really relevant to the issue at hand anyway.

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Well, if we houserule it to be CR-based it'll be more balanced, though it'd lose a lot on the creativity department from culling all the possible abuses synergies.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

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