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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Orc in the Playground
     
    NontheistCleric's Avatar

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    Well, if we houserule it to be CR-based it'll be more balanced, though it'd lose a lot on the creativity department from culling all the possible abuses synergies.
    Well, that depends. The Chairman didn't specify if he was proposing to make the 'leader' level or the cohort level functionally equal to CR. If the former, yes, it would be more balanced, or at least less powerful, but if the latter, it would instead allow for more power.

    However, I would personally advocate against houseruling for 'balance', especially now that we've had a answer which is probably as close to RAW as we're going to get. We come here to make villains using the 3.5 system, and if we're just going to houserule when it isn't even needed, is that really what we'd be doing? An outright ban is a somewhat different story, as it's not actually changing the rules, just declining to use some parts of them, and this competition has had one on Leadership for reasons I'm sure we would all agree are valid.

    But this round, the Leadership ban has been lifted. If the Chairman had just wanted us to make two villains, he could have said so in the restrictions, with no reference to Leadership, but that isn't what he did. This round is the Leadership round, a chance to use this feat in this competition we may never have again, and if we're not going to use Leadership, Undead Leadership and Thrallherd and all the other similar abilities which are usually banned in their full, 3.5 RAW glory, with every little awkward and designer-unintended rules facet that may help or hinder our builds in strange ways, what's the point?

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    My opinion and intent by introducing the Minion/lackey rules from Exemplars of Evil was that they are intended for monsters/villains and are entirely based on cr already. I would highly suggest that to get access to them in this competition they must still take leadership, undead leadership, or thrallherd as usual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exemplars of Evil
    A major villain should have one to three minions. A minor villain usually has no minions, but if you wish, you can give her one. A minion’s Challenge Rating should equal the villain’s Challenge Rating minus 2.
    which is very close to leadership's
    Quote Originally Posted by Leadership
    The character can attract a cohort of up to this level. Regardless of a character’s Leadership score, he can only recruit a cohort who is two or more levels lower than himself. The cohort should be equipped with gear appropriate for its level. A character can try to attract a cohort of a particular race, class, and alignment. The cohort’s alignment may not be opposed to the leader’s alignment on either the law-vs-chaos or good-vs-evil axis, and the leader takes a Leadership penalty if he recruits a cohort of an alignment different from his own.
    Since we are villains and the competition is about having a powerful creature who is the same race as you the Minion rules work better for our need. To create a level playing field I'd limit it to one minion and still require one of the ways to gain access to a cohort.
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    I feel like telling the ghost of Gary Gygax to hold your beer is a good way to suddenly stop being the GM, but I have to admit that this would probably be remarkably effective. At what, I dunno, but effective.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Yeah, looking at it Minion/Lackeys (Page 29-30 in Exemplars of Evil) are very much a copy of Cohort/Followers, with ever so slightly different implications in their rules, including that the Minions are much more autonomous than Cohorts tend to be, and there's even a blurb about how it interacts with Leadership and how it's more or less explicitly made as to be the 'evil' mirror of the Heroic Leadership

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Orc in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Falontani View Post
    Since we are villains and the competition is about having a powerful creature who is the same race as you the Minion rules work better for our need. To create a level playing field I'd limit it to one minion and still require one of the ways to gain access to a cohort.
    Though, if all we want is a level playing field, might as well simply have the one minion limit and not bother with Leadership at all, as the Minion/Lackey system is not related to it anyway.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Quote Originally Posted by NontheistCleric View Post
    Though, if all we want is a level playing field, might as well simply have the one minion limit and not bother with Leadership at all, as the Minion/Lackey system is not related to it anyway.
    This isn't the worst idea. If a DM wants a second prinary villain as a lieutenant to the BBEG, they don't take Leadership, they just make a second NPC and save the feat.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Nerdomancer in the Playground Moderator
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    okay,

    after reviewing it all, i'll make 2 stipulations:

    1. You may use the minion/lackey rules to build your character, but you are restricted to 1 minion, however you must take either leadership, undead leadership, or thrallherd as well

    -OR-

    2. you can ignore the minion/lackey rules and build your cohort(s) per the usual rules to leadership et al so that CR=ECL for the purposes of determining the lvl at which a cohort(s) can be gained, and the rate/amount at which they level along with you.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Beholder

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Quote Originally Posted by jdizzlean View Post
    okay,

    after reviewing it all, i'll make 2 stipulations:

    1. You may use the minion/lackey rules to build your character, but you are restricted to 1 minion, however you must take either leadership, undead leadership, or thrallherd as well

    -OR-

    2. you can ignore the minion/lackey rules and build your cohort(s) per the usual rules to leadership et al so that CR=ECL for the purposes of determining the lvl at which a cohort(s) can be gained, and the rate/amount at which they level along with you.
    Sad, my entry just died a bit.
    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Honestly the fastest way to make a paladin fall is to cast the grease spell or to trip the paladin.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Quote Originally Posted by MisterKaws View Post
    Sad, my entry just died a bit.
    Wait, let's not be hasty. Considering the considerable confusion there has been so far over whether ECL or CL is what is being used for both the cohort's level, the 'leader' level, and relatedly whether the CR=ECL ruling by the Chairman is applicable to either or both (although it would, referring to RAW, seem only to apply to the cohort level, the only one governed by ECL in the RAW), I think a little more clarification is in order.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdizzlean View Post
    2. you can ignore the minion/lackey rules and build your cohort(s) per the usual rules to leadership et al so that CR=ECL for the purposes of determining the lvl at which a cohort(s) can be gained, and the rate/amount at which they level along with you.
    So, just to clarify, this means that the cohort progression is done using CR=ECL, and CR=ECL is not used for determining the 'leader' level which is usually based on CL (not ECL)? Or is it that this operation is taking place, but the 'leader' level is also set to being based on CR? Or, although the reference to ECL would seem to preclude it, is this modification only being directly applied to the 'leader' level?

    Because there's been some confusion between whether it's CL or ECL that determines the 'leader' level (and thus whether your ruling would be relevant) (although by RAW it is CL, which your ruling would seem not to affect) and thus whether this ruling of yours concerns the level of the cohort itself or the 'leader' level, or both, or even only the 'leader' level.
    Last edited by NontheistCleric; 2020-01-04 at 04:40 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Rather than a generic question that can lead to further obfuscation: if I'm a CR 20 creature with 30 HD/no LA, what level is my cohort, "CR 18" or "HD 28?

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Rather than a generic question that can lead to further obfuscation: if I'm a CR 20 creature with 30 HD/no LA, what level is my cohort, "CR 18" or "HD 28?
    Actually, this would lead to further obsfucation.

    What should be asked is: If I'm a CR 20 creature with 30 HD (LA is irrelevant as it features neither in the RAW CL (character level) calculation for 'leader' level nor this CR one), is my cohort CR 18 because I'm CR 20, CR 28 because I'm CL 30, or ECL 18 because I'm CR 20?

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Nerdomancer in the Playground Moderator
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Quote Originally Posted by NontheistCleric View Post
    Wait, let's not be hasty. Considering the considerable confusion there has been so far over whether ECL or CL is what is being used for both the cohort's level, the 'leader' level, and relatedly whether the CR=ECL ruling by the Chairman is applicable to either or both (although it would, referring to RAW, seem only to apply to the cohort level, the only one governed by ECL in the RAW), I think a little more clarification is in order.



    So, just to clarify, this means that the cohort progression is done using CR=ECL, and CR=ECL is not used for determining the 'leader' level which is usually based on CL (not ECL)? Or is it that this operation is taking place, but the 'leader' level is also set to being based on CR? Or, although the reference to ECL would seem to preclude it, is this modification only being directly applied to the 'leader' level?

    Because there's been some confusion between whether it's CL or ECL that determines the 'leader' level (and thus whether your ruling would be relevant) (although by RAW it is CL, which your ruling would seem not to affect) and thus whether this ruling of yours concerns the level of the cohort itself or the 'leader' level, or both, or even only the 'leader' level.
    since this competition is based off of CR, both the leader (your main entry) and the cohort(s) will be based off of CR=ECL/CL for the purposes of all the things
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Oh, that's wonderfully clear. Thank you, Chairman.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    It's kind of a shame about redacted for possible speculation.

    Otherwise the cohort could have redacted for possible speculation and literally be a Mini Me.

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    It's kind of a shame about the ruling that if the main character has an inherited template, then the cohort also has to have that template.

    Template and literally be a Mini Me.
    I'd honestly almost just delete that and do it. It would be hilarious
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I feel like telling the ghost of Gary Gygax to hold your beer is a good way to suddenly stop being the GM, but I have to admit that this would probably be remarkably effective. At what, I dunno, but effective.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    It's kind of a shame about the ruling that if the main character has an inherited template, then the cohort also has to have that template.

    Otherwise the cohort could have the Dungeonbred template and literally be a Mini Me.
    Well, Dungeonbred isn't the only way you could pull something like this off, though I will not speculate openly.

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Nerdomancer in the Playground Moderator
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    how's everyone doing?

    as an aside, i have a crazy idea for an upcoming round, but will need to secure a judge ahead of time. if you're up to a challenge, shoot me a pm and i'll share a few details with you so you can decide whether it's something you want to attempt to judge or not!
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Quote Originally Posted by jdizzlean View Post
    how's everyone doing?

    as an aside, i have a crazy idea for an upcoming round, but will need to secure a judge ahead of time. if you're up to a challenge, shoot me a pm and i'll share a few details with you so you can decide whether it's something you want to attempt to judge or not!
    Judging a weird round sounds like it could be fun. I'm all ears.

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    have had to bail since my computer bailed on me :(

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Dont be too quick with that, sounded fun to me back when the last monster round went as well....and it kinda was, but also a LOT of extra work. ^^
    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”


    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    yay, the forums are back, and i can finally get in as well...


    i suppose an extension is in order at the very least. let's go another month from now, til March 26th, midnight MST as per normal. if anyone out there is working on stuff, or if everyone has abandoned this, let me know either way.
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Was waiting for an update on how exactly this would proceed, so yes, I for one am still building.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Planetar

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    I will jump in as well, the forums being down for a bit gave me some time to think

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    So...how goes progress?

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Ugh, I at least am totally out of it.

    Actually forgot this was still running.


    Ooops.
    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”


    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Nerdomancer in the Playground Moderator
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    5 days left for the extension. still no entries in the box. are folks building and need more time, or should we call it a dead round and move on?
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  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Honestly, I had absolutely no time since I remembewred....but given we are all more or less trapped at home I think an extension sounds better than abandoning it completely.

    What do you guys (and gals) think?
    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”


    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    Three of my concepts completely fell apart at the seams and discourage me from trying again
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    I feel like telling the ghost of Gary Gygax to hold your beer is a good way to suddenly stop being the GM, but I have to admit that this would probably be remarkably effective. At what, I dunno, but effective.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    I am continually astounded by how new you are here in contrast to how impressive your mind is.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    I'm still at it. This is a landmark round, the first explicitly calling for more than one villain to be built, and is thus a fair amount of work, not to mention the fact that many of us are likely being delayed by having coronavirus, being quarantined and tested for possible coronavirus, panicking about survival in the face of coronavirus, panicking because loved ones have coronavirus, being medical workers with increased workload because of coronavirus, and other people doing all of those things.

    In any case, it might be a little premature to call a halt to things before the deadline is even up. I also agree with GrayDeath that another extension might help.

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Nerdomancer in the Playground Moderator
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Villainous Competition XXXV: I Shall Call Him Mini-Me!

    ok,

    will give it another 2 weeks from now. hopefully that is enough time to get something in. So April 11th, 6pm MST is the new deadline.
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