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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Warlord (Tome of Battle marshal)

    This is an edited version of Demented One's original class. It's a conversion of the 4e warlord / redo of the 3e marshal.

    Warlord (Gdocs)

    Thanks to anyone who takes a look.
    Last edited by Elves; 2020-07-06 at 11:07 AM.
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    Default Re: Warlord (Tome of Battle marshal)

    Performing a successful Aid Another check for recovery mechanic?

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    Default Re: Warlord (Tome of Battle marshal)

    Sounds good. Put this in:

    "When you successfully use the aid another action in combat, you recover maneuvers equal to half your maximum readied maneuvers (rounded up)."

    It's supposed to interact with Adaptive Style for characters who take it -- full round for all maneuvers refreshed, or standard action for half of them.
    Last edited by Elves; 2019-12-29 at 03:53 PM.
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    Default Re: Warlord (Tome of Battle marshal)

    Oh no! Your stance progression suffers from Warblade Syndrome! (That's when you can't get a stance of higher than 1st level until character level 10, unless you multiclass or take a feat.)

    (Not to be confused with Crusader Syndrome, where you never gain access to your highest-level stances unless you multiclass or take a feat.)

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    Default Re: Warlord (Tome of Battle marshal)

    Fixed. Do you have any other reaction?
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    Default Re: Warlord (Tome of Battle marshal)

    I can never remember if "ally" includes yourself. Can you use Inspiring Presence to give temp HP to yourself? Can you use Tactical Presence to give yourself a bonus to hit?



    All the auras seems to have a range of 30 feet. Maybe that should just be in the base mechanics instead of stated individually in each aura? And maybe all the aura ranges could eventually become 60 feet when you've taken enough levels in the class?



    Aura of Expertise doesn't seem very useful. Sure, if one of your allies is playing a trip build, he'll be happy for the + to his check. But if he's not playing a trip build? He won't have the Improved Trip feat. So he'd need to provoke an attack of opportunity to in order to attempt to utilize the bonus you're giving him. Bull Rush has the same issue, but I think bull-rushing builds are less common. Does anyone ever actually disarm or sunder.

    Aura of Readiness, on the other hand is awesome. I can't imagine any Tactical Presence Warlord not picking it.

    Aura of Valor is kind of nice. But it's kind of eclipsed by Aura of Resilience. Especially since you can switch between boosting Fort and Will (with no action required?) at the start of each battle (after seeing who your enemies are? before they've acted, even if they beat your initiative?).



    Aura of Caution seems pretty good. Not everyone wants to be on the front lines, but even if you hang towards the back, you'll still be subjected to AC-targeting effects from time to time. So it's a bonus everyone can benefit from.

    Aura of Guile isn't bad, but it's kind of situational. Not all of your allies will be making weapon attacks. For those that do, it's hard to say how often they'll be in a position to benefit (unless they take that feat or stance that allows flanking from any position).

    I don't understand how Aura of Alacrity works. If part of their movement is within the range of your aura, and part of it isn't...?

    Aura of Resilience is kind of nice. It seems like it would be hard to get the DR over 9 though, even at level 20. That's less magnitude than Stoneskin (and some other effects), but it's overcome by fewer things, and is sort of always-on for the whole party, so it's much more practical.



    How does Aura of Prowess interact with Aura of Guile? Do you add Int x2 to damage?

    Aura of Resistance has the same problem as SR in general. It blocks friendly effects just as well as harmful effects. Making sure a friendly effect can get through requires a standard action, meaning you'd be losing the ability to do much of anything on your turn. And to top it all off, suppressing your SR for a friendly spell also removes your protection against harmful spells.

    Aura of Ardor seems to suddenly make Inspiring Warlords the best at boosting allied attacks. Which is kind of weird, since up to then, that seems to have been the Tactical Warlord's thing. Using Power Attack as the benchmark, +1 to hit is worth +2 to damage, so Aura of Ardor is twice as good as Aura of Prowess. And the bonuses to hit that a Tactical Warblade can offer are difficult to take advantage of consistently.

    Aura of Vigor is kind of nice. It's a reasonable defensive alternative to Aura of Ardor.

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    Default Re: Warlord (Tome of Battle marshal)

    I have this gripe with the Marshal too, but if your class is about leading tiny men, you should get some abilities that are about leading tiny men. Or some tiny men to lead (my notion of a Marshal fix would come with a goon squad of Warriors). This class isn't really a warlord, it's like a squad leader. You get some abilities that make your strike team better, but you're not really any better than a Swordsage at actually leading a war. You should get to do some stuff with logistics and politics. At least the Marshal gets Skill Focus (Diplomacy).

    I would add the disciplines the presences grant to the description of the presences. When reading through, I immediately jumped from "see below" to the presences to see what disciplines they grant, but the information isn't there. I would go with something like "Inspiring Presence (Diamond Mind)". Also, I think if you're going to be handing out disciplines this way, you should have more than two presences. You're already (apparently) using homebrew disciplines, go nuts. There's gotta be a battle shouts discipline, or a tactical positioning discipline, or whatever the hell.

    Inspiring Presence has the same bag of rats problem as the Factotum does. "Combat Encounter" is not a defined term in 3.5. I think I would tie it to readying maneuvers. Maybe even make it a pseudo-maneuver like the JPM's psuedo-stances. I think the temp HP progression should also be at least somewhat more generous.

    Tactical Presence is too small of a bonus to start with. Don't hand out +1s to stuff, it's not enough to remember. Maybe 2 + max maneuver level?

    I don't think the auras should be segregated by Inspiring/Tactical. Just make it always key of Charisma and let people pick whatever they want. Also, you should have more auras so people can have more than one of each. You could make them count as stances, which would be an interesting dynamic for the class.

    It's not clear to me what you're trying to do with the bonus feat list. Why does it have Cleave but not Power Attack? Also, you can drop the bit about Chapter 3, and should annotate the unmarked feats with the book they are from.

    The scaling on Martial Tactics is weirdly jumpy. You get top level maneuvers from 6th to 8th, then you don't until 12th, then you do for one level until 13th, then you don't for the rest of the game. Just make it always be "one level below your highest level maneuver".

    I think it would be clearer for Active Presence to note what kind of action the presences are. Makes it clearer to read and reference. Also, I might just give out an extra action. One more swift or immediate is not a huge deal, and action economy manipulation is fun.

    Seize the Day should have some anti-griefing clause. Right now you can replace a 20 with a 1, and I don't think it's beneficial to allow that.

    The radius on Commander's Prowess is way too small. At this level people are getting Meteor Swarm, Shapechange, and Shades. A moderate buff to allies within one square is not a big deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Fixed. Do you have any other reaction?
    You should also move the stance it gets at 16 down to 15. Personally, I think the ToB classes should get more stances than they do, so I would want this to get additional stances at 3/7/13/17, so you can get at least two stances of each level. Maybe even give it a second stance at 1st level. But the progression is in line with what existing classes get, so you're well within your rights to keep it at what you have.

    Also your text still reflects the old progression, so it technically hasn't been fixed.

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    Default Re: Warlord (Tome of Battle marshal)

    One thing that could be interesting would be buffs to Aid Another. I think the response to the Swordsage indicates that people are skeptical about spending their turn to recharge maneuvers. Maybe increase the bonus at low levels and reduce the action type at high levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    It's not a bad idea. I had the thought at one point of a knight redo with a squire analogous to an animal companion, and this would be similar. Or maybe just Leadership as an automatic bonus feat?
    Leadership would be a good start (followers-only Leadership is another idea I had for the Marshal). One thing I would do is to give some logistics or strategy abilities at dead levels. Things like "troops under your command can march longer" or "troops under your command are better with siege weapons". Things that don't move the needle in the tactical combat minigame, but which would be relevant for someone trying to do things with an army.

    Yes, I think the separation only makes sense if they have distinct tradeoffs, which they don't really. Took out the barriers, but left the stats as is for now. I want to keep the theme of tactical using Int, inspiring using Cha, but this gives some flex.
    I would make the Intelligence/Charisma thing keyed off of the presence, but keep the auras unlocked. So if you're a Tactical Warlord, you can still take Aura of Resilience but it keys off of Intelligence. I don't think there's a particularly compelling link between the effects at the stats.

    It's too much of a no-brainer. May reduce the bonus feat list even further since the main purpose of the list is to encourage them to take warlord class feats.
    Another matter of personal preference, but I think that's fine. People should get more feats than they do. If you really do always take Power Attack as a Warlord, that just means you're freeing up one of your other feat slots.

    Made it so you can't replace a roll of 1. That does keep a little risk.
    Not really what I meant. My concern is that, as written, you can turn an ally's success into failure. That's not really beneficial to allow. OTOH, preventing it adds boilerplate, and rules aren't the best way to handle disruptive players.

    I almost made that be how it is by default - warlord's presence applies whenever you use a boost or counter learned from this class, and there's no limit per-day or per-encounter. What do you think of that?
    I think that's actually worse than an extra action. The way Tactical Presence works, it's going to be very rare to find a window where you want to use that and a Counter at the same time. Inspiring Presence doesn't really have the issue, but it wouldn't hurt to have the option.

    Why I didn't: it risks homogenizing their maneuver layouts, and seems to over-encourage dipping another martial adept class to get strikes [or using magic items to get them].
    I don't think it's necessarily a problem if Warlords use a bunch of Boosts and Counters. It's unlikely you're going to end up with a party with two, so as long as there are enough maneuvers that the player can make choices, I think it's fine if those choices are mostly Boosts and Counters.

    But maybe it's fine for it to be arbitrary.
    It's inherently going to be arbitrary. If you make it reward a formation, you get the question "why that formation". The only think I'd be likely to tweak is to make the area scale (i.e. make it Medium or even Long range). That's another thing you can do that helps with the lead tiny men aspect without doing much to influence the tactical power level.

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    Default Re: Warlord (Tome of Battle marshal)

    Quote Originally Posted by NigelWalmsley View Post
    One thing that could be interesting would be buffs to Aid Another. I think the response to the Swordsage indicates that people are skeptical about spending their turn to recharge maneuvers.
    Makes sense.

    Leadership would be a good start (followers-only Leadership is another idea I had for the Marshal). One thing I would do is to give some logistics or strategy abilities at dead levels. Things like "troops under your command can march longer" or "troops under your command are better with siege weapons". Things that don't move the needle in the tactical combat minigame, but which would be relevant for someone trying to do things with an army.
    How's this?:

    Warleader (Ex): Starting at 4th level, you can attract followers (but not a cohort) as if you had the Leadership feat. However, instead of using your total class level to determine your base leadership score, you only use your warlord level. Typically, the followers you attract are members of the warrior class, and possess the nonstandard or elite array. At the DM’s discretion, you may be able to attract followers of other types. If your followers die, you can attract new ones. If you abuse your followers, this becomes increasingly difficult.

    This class feature has no impact on followers gained through the actual Leadership feat, if you have it.


    Possibly letting it key off Intelligence to keep the presences balanced. Maybe make it always be warriors instead of leaving the door open? But at that point you might as well do a fixed scaling retinue of warriors instead.

    I don't think there's a particularly compelling link between the effects at the stats.
    The names -- valor, ardor, etc vs guile, prescience, whatever, do convey a split, there's a difference of morale vs insight bonuses, and you can sort of see a theme of valor being defense, tactics being offense/special attacks. If anything I'd make the themes clearer, but cross-choosing should be allowed.

    Not really what I meant. My concern is that, as written, you can turn an ally's success into failure.
    TTRPGs run on good faith, but put a clause in.

    I think that's actually worse than an extra action. The way Tactical Presence works, it's going to be very rare to find a window where you want to use that and a Counter at the same time.
    Ah, yeah. Even if you let them replace one roll this round, you won't know ahead of time when you need it. It's a shame because I think boost/counter synergy is cleaner than having per-encounter/per-day. If I can't think of a way to make it work I'll just give more uses of active presence, starting at 2nd level.

    It's inherently going to be arbitrary.
    Forget that part of it then -- I think the class needs more effects based on movement to feel like an active warleader. Maybe formations are too complicated, but short range teleportation fluffed as tactical rearrangement seems good. Maybe that's a new set of auras or maybe it's a new class feature.
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    Default Re: Warlord (Tome of Battle marshal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    How's this?:
    That seems fine in principle, but there are a couple of issues. First, you don't get any followers until your leadership score hits 10, which it probably will not at 4th level. Second, if you do min-max your leadership score, getting a bunch of followers at 4th level is potentially a big deal. I think I would probably push it to ~6th, and maybe give them a "you get more followers" ability at some point. Third, it's too verbose (to the point that you're just restating the rules of Leadership in vaguer terms). I would template it like this:

    Warlord: Starting at 6th level, the Warlord attracts followers (but not a cohort) as if he had the Leadership feat. If he has multiple sources of followers, the number of followers is the total from all sources. He gains a competence bonus to his leadership score equal to the highest level White Raven maneuver he knows.
    (the last bit is there because I expect Warlords to have middling Charisma scores, so you need some kind of bonus to reasonably get followers even at this point)

    Possibly letting it key off Intelligence to keep the presences balanced. Maybe make it always be warriors instead of leaving the door open? But at that point you might as well do a fixed scaling retinue of warriors instead.
    I don't know why you want things to key off Intelligence so much. Most stuff in the game tells us that "leader of men" is supposed to be Charisma-based.

    As far as follower classes go, I think the follower should be allowed to be whatever. An army of troops could quite reasonably include things like scouts (who might be Rogues, Rangers, or literal Scouts), magical auxiliaries (who could be any of a dozen types of caster), and siege engineers (which might be Experts with appropriate skills or something). As long as you position it so the followers aren't a tactical advantage, I think it's beneficial for them to offer a variety of skills.

    The names -- valor, ardor, etc vs guile, prescience, whatever, do convey a split, there's a difference of morale vs insight bonuses, and you can sort of see a theme of valor being defense, tactics being offense/special attacks. If anything I'd make the themes clearer, but cross-choosing should be allowed.
    The names convey a split, but the effects don't particularly, IMO. The AC bonus is Intelligence based, but the DR one is Charisma based. That's kind of arbitrary, and I could easily imagine a flavorful justification for it going the other way.

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    Default Re: Warlord (Tome of Battle marshal)

    Hmm, the obvious choice for a capstone would be an additional aura; perhaps one that is temporary but can be chosen from any of the minor, major, or greater auras.

    But I think I better like an improved version of Martial Tactics. Instead of giving a single ally a maneuver, you give every ally a maneuver. Probably want a limitation such as "of no higher than level 3" to make it a tactical ability (Sudden Leap for everyone!) rather than an instant win button (Time Stands Still for everybody!). Alternatively/additionally, doing the same thing with a stance could be interesting, though in that case you'd probably want a duration limit rather than a level cap.
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    Default Re: Warlord (Tome of Battle marshal)

    You've got a combination of daily and per-encounter uses of Warlord's Presence. Interesting combination and I like the idea (some number of refreshable uses, and some extras that you can push with when the need arises), although I'm not sure if it's intended or just an editing mishap. If it is intended, I'd suggest some growth of the per-encounter uses to 2/encounter at some point, possibly even 3/encounter at very high levels, and a change to the wording to more clearly differentiate the two pools (it's easy to skip over the "per day" part having just seen "per encounter" and thing it's 1 + Int/Cha mod uses per encounter).

    For auras, I would suggest rewording them to use your Int/Cha bonus, not modifier. That way, if you take a large reduction to your ability score, you won't be unintentionally harming your party members (although I suppose that fluff-wise it works out if you're giving bad commands while Feebleminded).

    The auras that scale with 1/4 your ability score look a little weird, even though mechanically they're fine. Mathematically, it's 2 + modifier/2 (rounded up).

    Martial Tactics indicates on the tables that it eventually is usable more frequently, but the text only says 1/encounter.

    At 16th level, does Seize the Day let you substitute each of the two rolls once, or is it still limited to one use per encounter (just giving you two rolls to choose from)?
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    Default Re: Warlord (Tome of Battle marshal)

    Oh, here's a cool idea for dividing Tactical vs Inspiring presence.

    1) the bonus from your auras is insight if you choose tactical, morale if you choose inspiring.

    2) Tactical can grant its aura benefit to multiple individual allies at 120 ft. range, changing which allies are affected as a free action each turn, while Inspiring grants its aura benefit to every ally within 30 feet. This represents Tactical sitting back and ordering strategies (being tactical about who to focus on) while Inspiring leads from the front. Thus, Tactical likes to be with parties of ranged and mobile characters while Inspiring excels with groups of frontliners.

    I think that feels really good. You can imagine Tactical pointing a finger or making a gesture at someone a ways away, signaling them to execute some plan, while Inspiring likes to keep its allies close where their own personal charisma can be felt.

    (You could have abilities that provide a rare exception to this -- say "Group Maneuver" for tactical to apply their aura in an area at range, "Wave of Hope" for inspiring where the benefit of their aura extends like Horrid Wilting from one target to another target within x feet, representing a wave of new heart spreading through the battle lines.)


    How many targets should Tactical affect with its auras in order to be balanced with a 30-foot emanation for Inspiring?
    And is 120 foot range too much -- maybe 90 or 60?
    Last edited by Elves; 2021-03-04 at 11:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Warlord (Tome of Battle marshal)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    Oh, here's a cool idea for dividing Tactical vs Inspiring presence.

    1) the bonus from your auras is insight if you choose tactical, morale if you choose inspiring.

    2) Tactical can grant its aura benefit to multiple individual allies at 120 ft. range, changing which allies are affected as a free action each turn, while Inspiring grants its aura benefit to every ally within 30 feet. This represents Tactical sitting back and ordering strategies (being tactical about who to focus on) while Inspiring leads from the front. Thus, Tactical likes to be with parties of ranged and mobile characters while Inspiring excels with groups of frontliners.

    I think that feels really good. You can imagine Tactical pointing a finger or making a gesture at someone a ways away, signaling them to execute some plan, while Inspiring likes to keep its allies close where their own personal charisma can be felt.

    (You could have abilities that provide a rare exception to this -- say "Group Maneuver" for tactical to apply their aura in an area at range, "Wave of Hope" for inspiring where the benefit of their aura extends like Horrid Wilting from one target to another target within x feet, representing a wave of new heart spreading through the battle lines.)


    How many targets should Tactical affect with its auras in order to be balanced with a 30-foot emanation for Inspiring?
    And is 120 foot range too much -- maybe 90 or 60?
    Hmm. I like the idea, but in practice a 30ft aura is big enough that it'll cover the whole party in most combats. If you want to make that an actual tradeoff, I'd shrink the Inspiring aura to 25ft or even 20ft; 120ft is probably fine for the Tactical aura (and I'd include an ability/maneuver/stance that upgrades it to something absurd, like 1000ft, as long as you can actually communicate over that distance via Speak Language (battle signs) or something, because that's cool but niche enough not to be OP). OTOH, you could keep it a niche but flavorful difference by letting the Tactical aura target enough allies to cover the typical party (or maybe typical party -1), so 3- to 6-ish.
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