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  1. - Top - End - #301
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    Default Re: The Great Star Wars Watchthrough

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaydos View Post
    Your forgetting that time dilation exactly matches the acceleration loss. Because time moves slower for you, you dont notice they are accelerating less, and things appear to fall behind at the same rate they would standing still.
    I think at this point we are applying far too much science to our space wizards.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

  2. - Top - End - #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kornaki View Post
    I think you could think of this as being similar to a trick play in football.
    We're arguing about Star Wars, you really think I know anything about football?

    For real, though, I really like that analogy. It's kind of a shame that in the very next movie they say that it's a million to one shot with no justification, because I think they could have done something similar to what you did just there pretty easily. Or at least, I hope so, because if not then some people are getting paid way too much to write. I vote Kornaki for script doctor on the next Star War.
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  3. - Top - End - #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kornaki View Post
    I think you could think of this as being similar to a trick play in football. The FO's ships were focused on the transports leaving, and after years and years of nobody using a hyperspace ram the military discipline to keep one gun trained on the frigate has evaporated.

    When she turns around to ram, that's like the field goal placeholder picking up the ball to pass, and you can see the defense has nobody covering the receiver in the end zone. Yeah, the player hasn't thrown the ball yet, but you can have high confidence at this point that this particular example of a play that only gets run one in one thousand times or something is going to probably succeed.
    For that to be comparable, you would have to explain why lightspeed ramming is rare. Based on what we are shown - incredibly high benefit relative to the cost - there is no reason it would be. This has been discussed ad-nauseum. The tradeoff is insanely good for the side doing the ramming. The only reason you wouldn't weaponize hyperspace is if some mechanic of it prevented you from doing so. As of Ep 8, we know that isn't the case. Droids piloting ships on suicide runs should be a standard tactic. Lightspeed torpedoes should be the ranged weapon of choice. It being an option breaks the rules of space battles as shown in every movie up until this point and an offhand comment about it being a "one in a million" shot doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

    The football comparison would be if instead of kicking the ball, you had a launcher capable of firing it directly into the goal from the opposite side of the field. You would use it every time.
    Last edited by TheSummoner; 2020-01-11 at 10:51 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSummoner View Post
    For that to be comparable, you would have to explain why lightspeed ramming is rare. Based on what we are shown - incredibly high benefit relative to the cost - there is no reason it would be. This has been discussed ad-nauseum. The tradeoff is insanely good for the side doing the ramming. The only reason you wouldn't weaponize hyperspace is if some mechanic of it prevented you from doing so. As of Ep 8, we know that isn't the case. Droids piloting ships on suicide runs should be a standard tactic. Lightspeed torpedoes should be the ranged weapon of choice. It being an option breaks the rules of space battles as shown in every movie up until this point and an offhand comment about it being a "one in a million" shot doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

    The football comparison would be if instead of kicking the ball, you had a launcher capable of firing it directly into the goal from the opposite side of the field. You would use it every time.
    Difference is in this football comparison you would not be able to have a defensive line and you can't be on the other side of the field. The film where it's shown, has the ship required to be within weapons range, and you can't have anything between you and the enemy.

    If you can get the shot off. you score the goal. But you have to do it before the entire defensive line sacks you.
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  5. - Top - End - #305
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    Default Re: The Great Star Wars Watchthrough

    People keep talking about the Resistance they could just send droids on suicide runs, and uh, aren't droids sapient beings in Star Wars?

  6. - Top - End - #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    People keep talking about the Resistance they could just send droids on suicide runs, and uh, aren't droids sapient beings in Star Wars?
    It's pretty clear they're afforded no rights as such, and there's no reason you couldn't make a non-sapient droid to just run hyperspace calculations.

    Or program a droid who constantly pokes holes in your favorite movies so you don't feel bad sending him on a suicide run.
    Last edited by Dire_Flumph; 2020-01-11 at 11:18 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    Difference is in this football comparison you would not be able to have a defensive line and you can't be on the other side of the field. The film where it's shown, has the ship required to be within weapons range, and you can't have anything between you and the enemy.

    If you can get the shot off. you score the goal. But you have to do it before the entire defensive line sacks you.
    Doesn't hold up to logic. It's a lightspeed jump - you can definitely travel further than a the normal weaponry is capable of firing. A maximum range is established in this very film (though no hard numbers are given, they're not required. The existence of a maximum range is enough - if FTL travel couldn't outpace conventional SW weaponry, it wouldn't be a very good method of travel in the first place). Not having other obstacles in the path of your jump is a valid consideration, but not one that's all that hard to account for. It's space.

    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    People keep talking about the Resistance they could just send droids on suicide runs, and uh, aren't droids sapient beings in Star Wars?
    Star Wars is inconsistent on how "human" droids are supposed to be. A bit of a null point since you can back up the memory and put it in a fresh body anyways.

    Edit: Or do this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph View Post
    there's no reason you couldn't make a non-sapient droid to just run hyperspace calculations.
    Last edited by TheSummoner; 2020-01-11 at 11:20 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSummoner View Post
    For that to be comparable, you would have to explain why lightspeed ramming is rare.
    My explanation is most of the time they turn around to ram, she would have been blown up before even completing her turn. The only reason she wasn't blown up is because all the guns were targeting the transports.

    I am only bringing this up to explain how this can both be a dumb maneuver that you would not want to attempt, but also everyone could have been so worked up about before she turned on the hyperdrive. It was obvious to Poe that the gunners weren't paying attention to the frigate because if they were it would have already been blown up, and that lack of attention (because of incompetence/negligence, not exactly a new thing in the Star wars universe) is why she was able to succeed this time.

    As for all the other plot holes involved with the maneuver, I'm not going to even try to explain them away. I'm only saying that there's a plausible explanation for how the maneuver can both be incredibly risky and unlikely to succeed, yet upon beginning the attempt everyone involved could have realized was somewhat likely to work.

  9. - Top - End - #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kornaki View Post
    My explanation is most of the time they turn around to ram, she would have been blown up before even completing her turn.
    That only works for ships that are running away from their targets first, though. If they are charging at their target or jumping in to where their targets are, there is no need for a super lengthy turn.
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  10. - Top - End - #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSummoner View Post
    Doesn't hold up to logic. It's a lightspeed jump - you can definitely travel further than a the normal weaponry is capable of firing. A maximum range is established in this very film (though no hard numbers are given, they're not required. The existence of a maximum range is enough - if FTL travel couldn't outpace conventional SW weaponry, it wouldn't be a very good method of travel in the first place). Not having other obstacles in the path of your jump is a valid consideration, but not one that's all that hard to account for. It's space.



    Star Wars is inconsistent on how "human" droids are supposed to be. A bit of a null point since you can back up the memory and put it in a fresh body anyways.

    Edit: Or do this.
    If you're too far away from your target when you jump. then you enter hyperspace and you won't hit anything. you have to be close enough to hit them before you reach hyperspace.

    Think of it like the Delorian in Back to the Future. once you hit 88MPH it doesn't matter if the wall is in front of you. You're in the past or future now. So you've got to hit them inbetween the point of Acceleration ----- Hyperspace jump
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  11. - Top - End - #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    If you're too far away from your target when you jump. then you enter hyperspace and you won't hit anything. you have to be close enough to hit them before you reach hyperspace.

    Think of it like the Delorian in Back to the Future. once you hit 88MPH it doesn't matter if the wall is in front of you. You're in the past or future now. So you've got to hit them inbetween the point of Acceleration ----- Hyperspace jump
    Is this something explained/demonstrated in the films that I'm forgetting, or is this headcanon? Been a while, but I remember in Episode 4, Han needing to wait for the ship to finish calculations before making the jump - the implication being that if they hit anything along the way it would be very bad for them. The "wall in front of you" matters in that case.

    It also doesn't address Peelee's scenario of making the jump while flying towards an enemy ship. Not all that different than maneuvering around to shoot at them, but instead of shooting lasers, you shoot your ship.

  12. - Top - End - #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSummoner View Post
    Is this something explained/demonstrated in the films that I'm forgetting, or is this headcanon? Been a while, but I remember in Episode 4, Han needing to wait for the ship to finish calculations before making the jump - the implication being that if they hit anything along the way it would be very bad for them. The "wall in front of you" matters in that case.

    It also doesn't address Peelee's scenario of making the jump while flying towards an enemy ship. Not all that different than maneuvering around to shoot at them, but instead of shooting lasers, you shoot your ship.
    Starwars jumping to lightspeed has always been shown as a quick acceleration, then Bam Hyperspace. That visible line of acceleration is them exiting realspace And yes hitting something before you make that jump is important. But only before you enter hyperspace. Once you're there, only a gravity well can pull you out. That's what Interdirector fields. stars, and planets do. A large enough gravity well pulls you out of hyperspace. A ship isn't going to do that, which is why they needed to design specific ships with special equipment to be able to pull a ship out of hyperspace.
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  13. - Top - End - #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Cool. I don't care. I hate when "Rule of Cool" is used as justification, because I consider that bad storytelling, unless appropriate to the setting (eg the Order of the Stick explicitly runs on rules of drama in addition to rules of TTRPG, so it logically makes sense for "Rule of Cool" to apply there).

    Also, you said you worked to give The Last Jedi the benefit of the doubt. You put the work in.
    Yeah, I suspended my disbelief because it was cool. I did the same when a space wizard ignited a laser sword and started blocking laser blasts guided by a mystical energy field.

    I had more ... but this is the same argument. Again. And neither side is going to budge, so I'm done. I'm tired of the negativity and all the toxicity it heralds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I said it had Marvel humor. The prequels do not have Marvel humor, they have lowest-common-denominator humor. Which I have railed against, and continue to do so to this day (my most versatile complaint, which fits nicely against the comedy aspects as well, is "George Lucas said, 'I have this franchise about space wizards fighting other space wizards with laser swords while their friends fight each other with spaceships by shooting lasers at each other. Now, how can I make kids like it?'"). If you want to take me to task for not finding numerous issues with the prequels, you'll have a mighty time proving your case.
    The implication that being Marvel is not Star Wars, but fine, split that hair. I didn't mean to imply that you didn't find issues with prequels, merely to take issue with the idea that the lofty humour of the the OT was sullied by "Marvel, ie, non-Star Wars humour". The Sarlaac burps, for crying out loud.

  14. - Top - End - #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSummoner View Post
    Star Wars is inconsistent on how "human" droids are supposed to be. A bit of a null point since you can back up the memory and put it in a fresh body anyways.
    It's not that Star Wars is inconsistent on that point, but that different factions treat them differently. The Rebel Alliance pretty much treats droids as sapient, the Empire and CIS treat them as disposable machines, other people and factions treat them differently based on when and where you are (Uncle Owen treats R2 as a machine while Luke treats him as a person in ANH, for instance).

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    Starwars jumping to lightspeed has always been shown as a quick acceleration, then Bam Hyperspace[...]And yes hitting something before you make that jump is important. But only before you enter hyperspace.
    Nothing supports this interpretation. Not in the movies, not in the EU, not in Disney Canon.

    No material, whether before TLJ or after, mentions any kind of physical acceleration before jumping to hyperspace, nor makes any distinction between any kind of relativistic acceleration in the leadup to the jump to hyperspace from the jump itself. The only time the effect is referenced at all, it's explicitly and consistently referred to as "pseudomotion", and while different sources disagree on whether we're seeing the transition to hyperspace itself or whether it's merely some tachyons doing some weird stuff to some photons as a side effect, it's definitely not actual motion or acceleration.

    And you can't even say that nuking the EU un-explained hyperspace mechanics so you can technically kinda sorta fit the relativistic-accelerate-then-jump idea into Disney Canon if you squint, because when Disney pulled Interdictors into the new canon the whole explanation was pulled in via supplementary material, pseudomotion and hypermatter and all.

    And even if you decide to go with the relativistic explanation anyway despite all that, you're still left with the problem that every previous Star Wars movie has involved "Destroy [big honkin' target(s)] before [deadline]!" in its climax, so if you can arbitrarily blow up things with hyperspace-equipped ships then the Trade Federation droid control ship (I), droid manufacturing facility and TF core ships (II), Invisible Hand (III), Death Star (R1), Death Star (IV), Star Destroyers chasing the Rebels (V), Death Star II (VI), and Death Star III Starkiller Base (VII) should have been trivial obstacles to overcome instead of, y'know, movie-driving and -defining threats.
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  15. - Top - End - #315
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    The easiest way to handle that is to say the Raddus had suffered damage to its astronavigation that would normally prevent what happened.
    Thus an idiot accidentally rammed the Supremacy when she was still trying to figure out the controls given she might be a commander that doesn't mean she's an astronavigator thus was relying on a badly damage computer that caused the above event.
    So the Resistance don't even know what happened only a woman at the helm rammed another ship in outer space quite improbably as someone else is making a cup of tea....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopeless View Post
    The easiest way to handle that is to say the Raddus had suffered damage to its astronavigation that would normally prevent what happened.
    There was an element of "failsafes off" according to the novelization.

    Poe had programmed a hyperspace jump during the mutiny - the coordinates for entering hyperspace were still there but enough time had passed that those coordinates were now on the far side of the enemy fleet - Holdo saw this (after everyone else had evacuated) and figured out what could be done.
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    The Holdo maneuver itself isn't the most stupid stuff anyway. It is just the icing on the rotten cake.

    The First Order wants to catch the Raddus, right?
    They have hyper drives, right?
    Why don't they simply accelerate using THEIR hyper drives to RUSH past the Raddus?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    The Holdo maneuver itself isn't the most stupid stuff anyway. It is just the icing on the rotten cake.

    The First Order wants to catch the Raddus, right?
    They have hyper drives, right?
    Yeah, it was a standard maneuver that I remember from the X-Wing games. Ships could make a 'microjump'. Or they could jump out, and then jump back in to another position (there's a mission where you have to deal with a Star Destroyer that pulls that trick to outflank you).

    The long debate about the hyperspace ram misses the point in a way, because even if you took that away, the whole starship chase would still be terribly written, because it requires the Imperials to be total idiots. Questions I was asking while watching:

    • Why don't the bad guys make a microjump to catch up?
    • If they can't do that, why not have some of their ships jump out, then jump back in front to outflank them?
    • If they can't split up their fleet for whatever reason, why not call in some support ships and have THEM jump out in front?
    • Why not just send out their fighters and bombers to blow up the Rebel ships from a distance? Bombers launch with fighter escort, launch their missiles, go back and rearm. Repeat until everything's dead.
    • For that matter, why didn't they just swarm the Rebel fleet with fighters from the start? An old-school Imperial Star Destroyer carried 6 squadrons of TIEs. I didn't take a count of the First Order fleet, but from a glance, they should have something in excess of 1,000 fighters. That'd be enough to wipe out the Rebel fleet several times over.
    • For THAT matter, why did the Rebel fleet even make it out of firing range? They have a supercapital ship and 10 capital ships versus the Rebel's 1. They should have had enough firepower to blast the Rebel fleet to scrap in 30 seconds flat.
    • Why the **** are their LASER shots ARCING like they're thrown rocks in a gravity well?

    I mean, they're all rhetorical questions. The answer to the first six is "because the writers didn't think about it and didn't care" and the answer to the seventh is "they thought it looked cool".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Yeah, it was a standard maneuver that I remember from the X-Wing games. Ships could make a 'microjump'. Or they could jump out, and then jump back in to another position (there's a mission where you have to deal with a Star Destroyer that pulls that trick to outflank you).

    The long debate about the hyperspace ram misses the point in a way, because even if you took that away, the whole starship chase would still be terribly written, because it requires the Imperials to be total idiots. Questions I was asking while watching:

    • Why don't the bad guys make a microjump to catch up?
    • If they can't do that, why not have some of their ships jump out, then jump back in front to outflank them?
    • If they can't split up their fleet for whatever reason, why not call in some support ships and have THEM jump out in front?
    • Why not just send out their fighters and bombers to blow up the Rebel ships from a distance? Bombers launch with fighter escort, launch their missiles, go back and rearm. Repeat until everything's dead.
    • For that matter, why didn't they just swarm the Rebel fleet with fighters from the start? An old-school Imperial Star Destroyer carried 6 squadrons of TIEs. I didn't take a count of the First Order fleet, but from a glance, they should have something in excess of 1,000 fighters. That'd be enough to wipe out the Rebel fleet several times over.
    • For THAT matter, why did the Rebel fleet even make it out of firing range? They have a supercapital ship and 10 capital ships versus the Rebel's 1. They should have had enough firepower to blast the Rebel fleet to scrap in 30 seconds flat.
    • Why the **** are their LASER shots ARCING like they're thrown rocks in a gravity well?

    I mean, they're all rhetorical questions. The answer to the first six is "because the writers didn't think about it and didn't care" and the answer to the seventh is "they thought it looked cool".
    1. Microjumps would be a pretty precise maneuver and could just not be a thing. The ST established that all the hyperspace rules are BS anyways though.
    2. Space is big, and operates in 3D. The Rebels could just go at a slight angle and avoid pretty much any outflanking that didn't involve a complete dome of ships.
    3. Ditto 2.
    4. They actually address this in the movie, but the reason is stupid, so I agree with you there.
    5. Ditto
    6. Ditto
    7. TLJ isn't actually the first Star Wars that has space act like it's basically ships in water. I'm pretty sure it comes up in the Clone Wars, and maybe some of the movies. I can't remember exactly, but I know I had seen it before. TLJ was the most blatant about it though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiousLeader View Post
    I didn't see Dark Phoenix, but that's also due to bad reviews and poor trailer, and I'm legitimately interested in seeing New Mutants. As for awful experiences ... I've tried to watch The Holiday Special, and I cannot. I cannot make it through the whole ... thing. And Attack of the Clones, for me, is almost as unwatchable. Yet I still went to Revenge of the Sith, which wins the award of ... not being Attack of the Clones. So yeah, I still don't get it.



    If we need another example, I actually like Star Trek Beyond the most of all the reboot Trek movies, because it's the one that gives us the most crew of the Enterprise being the crew of the Enterprise. 2009 Trek is great, but it's an origin story. Star Trek Into Darkness ... I enjoyed it in theater, at the time I liked the temerity to redo Wrath of Khan, but the movie has not aged well at all. Or, another example, I loved Star Trek VI after the fiasco of V.

    Nemesis (and Enterprise) were bad enough to kill the franchise for awhile, but I didn't stop calling myself a Star Trek fan because of them.



    I specifically didn't go into story because I'm tired of fighting that same battle over and over and over. I think The Last Jedi's story works, I enjoy it. I like the themes the movie plays in. The performances by the actors is compelling to me, something that cannot be said about the prequels.

    To be honest, I don't think the story is the strongest in The Last Jedi, but I find the hysteria over it is hypocritical nitpicking, because things that get a pass in the other movies now don't.

    Let's look at one example that's constantly fought over, the Holdo Maneuver. Maybe it's because I'm more a Trek fan than a Wars fan, because I refuse to let it bother me. I've seen Transporters do more world-breaking stuff than the Holdo Maneuver. Han's shenanigans in TFA also break most of the established rules for hyperspace travel, so does the jump from within atmosphere in Rogue One, and the beginning of the Rise of Skywalker. But this is the one that gets pages and pages of pearl-clutching, the universe is broken, lions and lambs are sleeping together, lamentations and woe ...



    That isn't a sequel thing ... need I remind you of C-3PO's punning commentary during AotC, or R2's slapstick number with the Battle Droids in RotS? Jar Jar? The farting toad outside Jabba's palace?

    Also, Marvel movies are awesome. And I might have liked The Rise of Skywalker more if Avengers Endgame hadn't done it all so much better.



    One of the things TLJ is doing is trying to mediate the differences that the prequels brought up. The idea of balance is not in Yoda's teachings, and TLJ is putting the idea in context of what is said in ESB. That first lesson between Rey and Luke is particularly noteworthy here. In ESB, Yoda refers to the Dark Side as the "quick and easy path". But here, Luke talks about its more seductive elements ... "It offered you something you needed". So I disagree that TLJ isn't doing anything new here.

    As for Canto Bight ... I'm so tired of that fight, I'm not repeating it. It's not the strongest part of the movie, but safe to say, I find all the arguments against it here unconvincing. I'm going to link a video that summarizes my take on the matter.
    You want to know why TLJ gets so much crap while other movies don't?
    I give you my reasons:

    1. The tone of the movie and the tone of the author.
    Every other Star Wars movie, including the not-stellar-either-TFA made the impression of a popcorn movie. Sit down and enjoy the adventure
    Johnson and TLJ tried to be subversive. Clever.
    If a movie tells you to think more critically about things, no wonder people do.
    But then, the movie better holds up to critical thinking.
    Which TLJ does LESS than the other ones, but that may well be opinion.

    To put it more foregiving to the author:
    A subversive point automatically raises eyebrows. That is the point of putting a subversive surprise scene into your movie.
    If nothing disturbs you, you are much less likely to think more critically.


    2. The number and magnitude of the plotholes is much worse than in the other movies
    I tell you my experience (maybe the order is not 100% correct, I try my best to forget that "movie"):

    - The FO reigns. Wait, waht? weren't they crushed??? Ok...whatever
    - Leia slaps Poe. Wait, what? His team just saved them from the biggest enemy ship?? Well, maybe Leia has some secret plan? Let's wait what happens
    - Luke tosses the sabre and runs like a baby? Errr.....don't like it, but MAYBE there is rhyme and reason? Let's not forsake the movie to early, shall we?
    - Ships need fuel now. Well, ok, at least no one ever said they didn't, and realistically they SHOULD, right? Maybe there is some clever rational behind it?
    - Holdo slaps Poe. Wait, she is a good guy, right? oh, I get it. They are doing the old "grumpy chief of police guy" routine, just with a chick instead of a dude. Cool. So ladies can be shown to be bad bosses, too. Ok.
    - The FO WANTS to chase the Raddus, but they DO NOT use their hyperdrives? Cringe. This evil team is NO WAY as threatening as the empire was in the old movies. Sigh. Oh well, I don't care much for the villains, anyway. Let's see what the good guys are up to.
    - Finn wants to escape to live and save Rey, and gets zapped. By the rebels?? The good guys? On behalf of Leia???? WTF is upt with these idiots? They zap people who want to flee? Geez, might as well be rooting for the not-empire, or what? hopefully Luke will make things right.
    - So the tension is the good guys can't escape, but I want them to live. Oh wait, they CAN escape. They just fly to casino planet, and the FO doesn't care. WHY doesn't EVERYONE do so, leave the Raddus an empty ship. Oh, and do Finn & Rose suddenly have hyperdrive while they shouldn't? Anyway. The "exciting" chase is interrupted emtionally and logically. So much mor that part of the plot, but screw this. Let's see what Luke is up to.
    - First instance of Luke flashback with Ren: Oh, oh, I have a bad feeling. Please DO NOT TAKE THE MOST OBVIOUS YET BLATANTLY STUPID ROUTE OF HAVING HIM STRIKE KYLO AND THUS TURN HIM BAD. PLEASE!
    - Rey discovering her parents are non-famous. Hey, nice. I didn't remember they were supposed to be famous, but this is neat. Be yourself and don't cling to bloodlines.
    - Holdo tells Poe nothing. Not her plan. Not even that THERE IS A PLAN. Ok, they are doing the grumpy chief of police thing badly, but whatever. These rebels SUCK. They are tazing their own people. I don't care about them.
    - What, Ackbar is dead? Hardly knew him
    - Oh, Leia isn't? Just so she can slap Poe some more or to taze some more desperate rebels? I thought Carrie Fisher died so they had her die off-screen. Well, maybe not.
    - Kylo and Rey do love-skype over the galaxy. Wait, how did they do THAT??? And also, please please please no "good girl falls in love with bad boy romance plot". Please please please no? I didn't pay for Twilight*, I paid for Star Wars.
    - Casino stuff: Don't care. If they can escape to casino planet and have the time to walk around to do all this stuff, why doesn't everyone else follow and they all have a good time while the FO chases an empty Raddus? Or, acquire Hyperspace fuel and/or additional escpae ships? Or contact allies? Or the republic?
    - This DJ guy sucks. He sure is no Solo.
    - Oh, and the hacking plot made my eyes roll. But these days I don't expect Hollywood to EVER come up with something remotely good involving computers or hacking, so this actually didn't bother me TOO much.
    - Ok, they did THINK that making Luke the evil guy who wants to kill his nephew was a good idea. Ok, ready to hate this movie.
    - the good guys overpower Holdo. Good for them. Don't care. Leia overpowers them. Good for her. Still don't care.
    - Holdo tells her plan. Ok, that plan sucks for so many reasons. If they escape in small ships and hope the FO doesn't notice, why not escape ala Finn&Rose to casino planets and the like?
    - They HAVE CLOAKED SHIPS?????? WOW, that MIGHT have been useful in combat, no??? How come NO ONE EVER USED THEM?
    ...
    Well, maybe it's new secret tech, and they didn't want to spill the beans early, only use it as last resort?
    Ok, that might make sense.
    ...
    The FO detects them instantly, because Finn&Rose told them they are cloaked.
    So they COULD detect cloaked ships all along, but WOULD NOT HAVE USED THAT TECH???
    Wait, what???
    Jesus, who wrote this crap? (at that time, I didn't know about Rian Johnson)
    -So Holdo gets to be a hero and saves the day. Wait, why didn't they ram the Death Star? Or Death Star 2? Or whatever the Death Star in TFA was called?
    Eh, whatever, at least the movie is over.
    ...
    It isn't? We still get the planet of Hoth?
    Crap, I want to leave, but I don't want to walk home alone.
    Ok, hope this won't go too long.

    - What's so brilliant about Holdo's plan? Oh, they get stranded in a base with no back exit and are trapped, that is it.
    They REALLY should have gone to casino planet and have a good time. Heck, I should have gone to casino and waste my money on slots machines instead of paying for this movie ticket.
    - Finn wants to save everyone else by dieing. Mildly interested.
    ...
    - Yeah, another crap scene as expected. (2)
    - Oh, Luke does come back.
    - Maybe 9 can do something interesting with the character? Maybe I can just retcon/headcanon all this crap if 9 makes a really awesome story?
    ....
    Ok, Luke's dead. Nice visuals, with the two suns, bro.
    Ugh. Never watch Star Wars again.

    - Oh, HOPE is important. I get it. 9 plays 20 years later when the kid with the broom is adult and becomes the new Jedi hero.
    Well, I let other people watch that. I wanted to see how the story of the old characters continues, and I have, in two movies, not seen any reasonable or likable story. I'm done. Sad ending to a franchise, but whatever, It's just a movie, right?


    Maybe you can put it this way: If a movie takes SUCH much effort to punch in you in the gut, it practically compels you to watch for weak spots in its armor (well, or simply give up).



    *Never watched Twilight at that time I watched TLJ. Ever since, I did (in parts) and now know I SHOULD have rather paid for watching Twilight than this mess
    (2) I REALLY REALLY should have watched Twilight. At least there ARE kisses with actual chemistry betweem the actors. Ugh
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kornaki View Post
    My explanation is most of the time they turn around to ram, she would have been blown up before even completing her turn. The only reason she wasn't blown up is because all the guns were targeting the transports.

    I am only bringing this up to explain how this can both be a dumb maneuver that you would not want to attempt, but also everyone could have been so worked up about before she turned on the hyperdrive. It was obvious to Poe that the gunners weren't paying attention to the frigate because if they were it would have already been blown up, and that lack of attention (because of incompetence/negligence, not exactly a new thing in the Star wars universe) is why she was able to succeed this time.

    As for all the other plot holes involved with the maneuver, I'm not going to even try to explain them away. I'm only saying that there's a plausible explanation for how the maneuver can both be incredibly risky and unlikely to succeed, yet upon beginning the attempt everyone involved could have realized was somewhat likely to work.
    But that description points to how you can modify warfare to account for it. If they can't deal with many targets at once, give the smallest thing you can hyper drive and some mass and use swarms of them to attack at once. Also we have seen the big ships having some trouble targeting small fighters. And you can make great stealthy mines with this. Conceal something as an asteroid and once it gets in range it is ramming time. If they can't switch quickly enough to a big ship target attempting this, one out of nowhere should work too. Also for ramming craft going all out on front shields sacrificing the others is an option (+ablative front armor). And of course it is great against stationary targets on planets.

    You can maybe explain why it doesn't usually work with the way normal star wars battle play out but explaining why their warfare isn't built around it is far harder without making up some technobabble. (Though really we have so often seen small targets last long when attacking big targets in star wars that I am pretty convinced that the success rate should be high enough to make it worthwhile. Star wars point defense is pretty weak.)

    But as saph said it is not like fixing this would fix the rest anyway or is the biggest problem. A stupid mechanic is just a stupid mechanic, deus ex machina stuff mostly bothers me in stuff I consider good in general.

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    Default Re: The Great Star Wars Watchthrough

    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiousLeader View Post
    The implication that being Marvel is not Star Wars, but fine, split that hair.
    I'm sorry, maybe I should clarify what I mean when I use the shorthand phrase "Marvel humor".
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    the humor seems much too flippant and casual for such high stakes. And that's how I describe a lot of the humor in the entirety of the sequel trilogy
    Better? That humor is used in a lot of movies, the Marvel ones being far and away the most prominent, so I use that as shorthand for the style. I'm not saying every movie that uses it is now a Marvel movie and no longer an X movie, for whatever X is. I use it so people can readily identify what I'm talking about, since chances are they've seen one or two of them.

    Because you explicitly said I claimed, and I'm quoting you here, quotation marks and all:
    "This. Is. Not. Star. Wars."
    Which, I've gotta say, really doesn't seem like a shorthand phrase, like my "Marvel humor" bit. But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Is that a shorthand you use for something?
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    Default Re: The Great Star Wars Watchthrough

    The real question, IMO, is...

    Solo or Manolorian next?

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    Default Re: The Great Star Wars Watchthrough

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaydos View Post
    The real question, IMO, is...

    Solo or Manolorian next?
    Mandalorian gets my vote!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiousLeader View Post
    Yeah, I suspended my disbelief because it was cool. I did the same when a space wizard ignited a laser sword and started blocking laser blasts guided by a mystical energy field.
    You suspended your disbelief, good for you. I imagine that's exactly what the writers were hoping for. Make things happen fast enough and make things pretty enough and the audience will sit in their chairs, eat their popcorn, enjoy the pretty lights and ignore the plot holes and logic problems. Not everyone is willing or able to do that. It's a bad movie. You're allowed to enjoy it, most people enjoy some bad things, but it's still bad.

    The big difference between those two examples is that the laser swords are consistent. There are established rules in the film universe and one of those rules is that space wizards are able to use lasers swords to deflect laser blasts. Sometimes the space wizard gets overwhelmed or caught unaware and isn't able to move fast or skillfully enough to block the laser blasts (as in Ep 3), but if the laser sword moves in the path of the laser blast, the laser blast is deflected. Every time. We as viewers know this and understand this. Lightspeed ramming is not consistent. It breaks the internal logic of the movie, and this specific example comes up so often because it is particularly egregious about it. It being cool doesn't change that. There are people who think Sharknado is cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImperiousLeader View Post
    The implication that being Marvel is not Star Wars, but fine, split that hair. I didn't mean to imply that you didn't find issues with prequels, merely to take issue with the idea that the lofty humour of the the OT was sullied by "Marvel, ie, non-Star Wars humour". The Sarlaac burps, for crying out loud.
    It's an issue of tone and the way the humor is used. The Sarlaac burps. The Sarlaac is an animal that just ate something (someone). It isn't worried about survival, it is thinking about its next meal. You don't, for example, have Luke reach down to pull Lando up and make a quip about "hanging around" while the man is trying desperately not to die. Action and comedy can work well together, but for that to happen, you can't just mash them together and sprinkle jokes wherever. There has to be a balance in respect to the tone of the scene. Action and suspense build tension. Humor creates levity. When Poe makes jokes and quips and mocks Hux over intercom during a battle, it suggests that he doesn't take the threat seriously. The levity destroys the tension. If he doesn't take the threat seriously, why should the audience? Hux later gets thrown around like a ragdoll. If Snoke doesn't take him seriously as an underling, why should the audience take him seriously as a villain? Note that one ever made any jokes about how Vader wasn't a serious threat.

    This video talks about it in more depth. It uses horror and comedy as an example which is a much harder mix to actually make work than action and comedy, but many of the points still apply.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    There was an element of "failsafes off" according to the novelization.

    Poe had programmed a hyperspace jump during the mutiny - the coordinates for entering hyperspace were still there but enough time had passed that those coordinates were now on the far side of the enemy fleet - Holdo saw this (after everyone else had evacuated) and figured out what could be done.
    A movie should stand on its own. If it requires a novel, comic book, video game, or other outside source to explain what happened, it has failed. (There's some lee-way given to things being explained in other films in direct continuity since it's all part of the same story. Episodes 1-3 can be taken together, as can 4-6 and 7-9, for example.) A viewer shouldn't have to read a book to make sense of what was shown on screen. Bonus material should be exactly that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Better?
    Thank you for clarifying. I still think it's odd to ding the sequels for it when there's no shortage of quips and stuff like Boba Fett's ignominious ending, you seem to see a gulf where I don't, but we all have different tastes for humour. If it's not to your liking, so be it.

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    @Imperiousleader

    My reasons for absolutely reaming TLJ and not any other star wars.

    I liked the OT and really, the only reason Star Wars rates higher than your average scify fare or Kull the Conqueror is Luke Skywalker. His story is one of the best bits of cinema to my mind.

    "I will not fight you." Great stuff. Really great.

    TLJ craps all over Luke. No Bueno. To the extent I am a 'fan' of SW is just a rating of how much of a fan I am of Luke. No Luke, I don't really care.

    That's why the prequels could be so lacking and not get a peep out of me. I saw they were lacking, and I went on about my business. Whatever.

    But when TLJ says "here's your hero and, oh, btw, he's an idiotic jerkface now" I get mad.

    *****

    I'll also say TLJ is just really that bad. When a movie experiences uncharacteristic pushback you don't automatically put all blame on the audience, at least you shouldn't.

    To my mind's eye you could also examine the movie for unique flaws.

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    You have to say this about Last Jedi. It's the only one of the new films that people really feel strongly about. A lot of fans Love it, A lot of fans Hate it. But we all have things to say about it. You can't really say that about the rest of these.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    You have to say this about Last Jedi. It's the only one of the new films that people really feel strongly about. A lot of fans Love it, A lot of fans Hate it. But we all have things to say about it. You can't really say that about the rest of these.
    The other two major ones were made by J.J. He made them in exactly his style, like if Nolan made a Star Wars movie and it had weird time jumps and blaring horn noises. When Abrams does a good job it is because his style matches the material, when its a bad job it is because it doesn't. He really makes one type of movie.

    Johnson focused heavily on subversion, so if that is your thing it was great and if not it felt like an attack on the source material.
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    Default Re: The Great Star Wars Watchthrough

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobb View Post
    @Imperiousleader

    My reasons for absolutely reaming TLJ and not any other star wars.

    I liked the OT and really, the only reason Star Wars rates higher than your average scify fare or Kull the Conqueror is Luke Skywalker. His story is one of the best bits of cinema to my mind.

    "I will not fight you." Great stuff. Really great.

    TLJ craps all over Luke. No Bueno. To the extent I am a 'fan' of SW is just a rating of how much of a fan I am of Luke. No Luke, I don't really care.
    I don't agree. I don't think Luke was "crapped on". I think it's Hamill's best performance, and his story arc is one of my favourite things about the movie. Anyway, here's an article that I found rather interesting. Obviously, written just before The Rise of Skywalker, though it does reference The Mandalorian.

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