The Great Star Wars Watchthrough

[Tvtyrant]

Imperious, enjoyment is subjective. You can't convince someone they should have enjoyed something, and the thread for this movie went for 75+ pages last time. Telling people the reason their reaction is wrong has never convinced anyone, the goal of communication is to understand why you don't agree.

[Bobb]

I'm sorry for not not liking your movie the right way.

Good to know you just wanted to know exactly how to tell me I'm wrong about my movie watching experiences.

[Mightymosy]

@Imperious:
I disagree, precisely because there is no arc.

He comes out in TLJ, almost the opposite of how he was at the end of RotJ.
How he became that other guy, might be an arc. But that one is never told.

Me and others think TLJ crap on Luke.

I also think TLJ craps on Luke WITHOUT Style, a.k.a. Bad writing.
This is because there simply is no arc.

And no, the single flashback scene is no arc, even if it is shown twice and we get some bla bla.


Whether one likes Luke ending up as crap or not is personal taste and opinion. I don't argue against that.
The way it is SOLD, however, I HATE WITH PASSION.

Do you play table top RPGs?
Did you leave a campaign for some sessions?
Can you imagine that after you return, the DM tells you:
"By the way, your character lost all your stuff and all his abilities."
"How so?"
"Well, he got pissed by his friends and tried to murder them. So they took and down, stole his stuff and made a wizard curse him back to level 1"
"But my character would never do that! He is an epitome of good paladin"
"Well he did"
"but why?"
"because it is SUBVERSIVE! And I am a clever DM who likes to surprise"
"But did I ever role play him like that?"
"Well, noo. Hence, SURPRISE! See how clever I am?"

If that would be your kind of thing, go ahead. I think it is crap.

[Tvtyrant]

One thing I will say the new movies definitely show is that the original Star Wars themes are played out. Abrams couldn't generate much interest by copying them, Johnson went the subversive/mannerist approach and half the audience loved it. Clearly new story telling conventions are in order.

[Devonix]

@Imperious:
I disagree, precisely because there is no arc.

He comes out in TLJ, almost the opposite of how he was at the end of RotJ.
How he became that other guy, might be an arc. But that one is never told.

Me and others think TLJ crap on Luke.

I also think TLJ craps on Luke WITHOUT Style, a.k.a. Bad writing.
This is because there simply is no arc.

And no, the single flashback scene is no arc, even if it is shown twice and we get some bla bla.


Whether one likes Luke ending up as crap or not is personal taste and opinion. I don't argue against that.
The way it is SOLD, however, I HATE WITH PASSION.

Do you play table top RPGs?
Did you leave a campaign for some sessions?
Can you imagine that after you return, the DM tells you:
"By the way, your character lost all your stuff and all his abilities."
"How so?"
"Well, he got pissed by his friends and tried to murder them. So they took and down, stole his stuff and made a wizard curse him back to level 1"
"But my character would never do that! He is an epitome of good paladin"
"Well he did"
"but why?"
"because it is SUBVERSIVE! And I am a clever DM who likes to surprise"
"But did I ever role play him like that?"
"Well, noo. Hence, SURPRISE! See how clever I am?"

If that would be your kind of thing, go ahead. I think it is crap.

If I came back to a campaign and my PC has had 30+ years pass ingame between when I played him. Well I might not be happy about the changes but I'd accept that time and circumstance could cause him to make some changes. Because I can promise you. I'm not the same person I was 30 years ago. And I'm not going to resemble the person I am 30 years from now. If I do. If I'm that static, I might as well not even be alive.

[Mightymosy]

If I came back to a campaign and my PC has had 30+ years pass ingame between when I played him. Well I might not be happy about the changes but I'd accept that time and circumstance could cause him to make some changes. Because I can promise you. I'm not the same person I was 30 years ago. And I'm not going to resemble the person I am 30 years from now. If I do. If I'm that static, I might as well not even be alive.

If you told me about something at least close to the 180 they made Luke do?

Again, the MAIN problem is them not even telling that story.
I don't think changing THAT much is reasonable. But if you do, at least put the effort in to show how that came to be.

[Rakaydos]

If you told me about something at least close to the 180 they made Luke do?

Again, the MAIN problem is them not even telling that story.
I don't think changing THAT much is reasonable. But if you do, at least put the effort in to show how that came to be.

If they tell that story at a later date (either in a standalone film or some other media) and it's told well, would that retroactively make TLJ better?

[Tvtyrant]

If they tell that story at a later date (either in a standalone film or some other media) and it's told well, would that retroactively make TLJ better?

I'm not sure that is a story I would want to watch, period. It's like if they made Picard mono-syllabic and cat calls women, it just isn't something I ever wanted to see.

If they wanted Luke to stay on an island I would have preferred a ying-yang answer. The Force balances itself, so Luke is stuck on his planet because that locks the Emperor on Exegal. Leia and Snoke are mirrors, so are Ben and Rey. Luke is convinced to leave which sets off the breakdown of the stalemate, so the Emperor is free but Snoke, The Emperor, Luke and Leia are all doomed to die.

[Devonix]

If you told me about something at least close to the 180 they made Luke do?

Again, the MAIN problem is them not even telling that story.
I don't think changing THAT much is reasonable. But if you do, at least put the effort in to show how that came to be.

You believe that this is a 180, I don't I believe it's progression, simply progression into the type of character that you and I don't want him to be. And guess what. Luke doesn't want to be that person either. He's depressed and wallowing in his depression.

Think of every single time we see a once heroic gunslinger who's become a drunk at a bar that the young hero has to convince to be a hero again.

Think of every former knight that's become an ******* that a new adventurer meets.

This type of thing isn't Johnson being subversive. These types of uses for a former hero have been used in stories for generations.

[Rakaydos]

I'm not sure that is a story I would want to watch, period. It's like if they made Picard mono-syllabic and cat calls women, it just isn't something I ever wanted to see.

Teenager Picard certantly would have some growing to do before he's the mature Captian we all know and love. (then again, we all know the Nemisis movie sucked)

On a related note, what are your thoughts on Solo, reprising pre-falling-in-love-with-a-princess Han?

[Mightymosy]

If they tell that story at a later date (either in a standalone film or some other media) and it's told well, would that retroactively make TLJ better?

Yes and no.
It wouldn't make the movie better, but the franchise. And it would only change the franchise/story slightly, because there is so much wrong with it.

I wouldn't like it much better, because I prefer real heros, but I wouldn't complain so much that the storytelling sucks, if they actually cared to tell a proper story. Then it would maybe be a good story, but a good story not to my taste.

ETA: for example, I hear this new story about the Mandalorian is great. Many people say so.
From what I understood this is some Boba Fett guy. Which means evil assassin, bounty hunter or some such.
Which is why I don't intend to watch it, even though it is good.
I like stories with GOOD protagonists.
But I don't say any story with an not good protagonist is bad., just not my taste.

I'm not sure that is a story I would want to watch, period. It's like if they made Picard mono-syllabic and cat calls women, it just isn't something I ever wanted to see.

If they wanted Luke to stay on an island I would have preferred a ying-yang answer. The Force balances itself, so Luke is stuck on his planet because that locks the Emperor on Exegal. Leia and Snoke are mirrors, so are Ben and Rey. Luke is convinced to leave which sets off the breakdown of the stalemate, so the Emperor is free but Snoke, The Emperor, Luke and Leia are all doomed to die.

Yeah, me neither. Some ideas are just not my thing, even if technically well done. TLJ is neither my thing, nor we'll done, thus my irritation with the million dollar storytelling fiasco.

You believe that this is a 180, I don't I believe it's progression, simply progression into the type of character that you and I don't want him to be. And guess what. Luke doesn't want to be that person either. He's depressed and wallowing in his depression.

Think of every single time we see a once heroic gunslinger who's become a drunk at a bar that the young hero has to convince to be a hero again.

Think of every former knight that's become an ******* that a new adventurer meets.

This type of thing isn't Johnson being subversive. These types of uses for a former hero have been used in stories for generations.

Know what?
I know the trope you are talking.
But I have ever once seen it done successfully with a character who is known before, without giving them a story of how that character development came to pass.

I am tired of repeating, but my main problem is that they don't give any effort in telling the story how Luke become bitter stupid grumpy evil man.
For you it's enough that it fits a trope as it seems. For me, tropes need to fit the story.

[Devonix]

Yes and no.
It wouldn't make the movie better, but the franchise. And it would only change the franchise/story slightly, because there is so much wrong with it.

I wouldn't like it much better, because I prefer real heros, but I wouldn't complain so much that the storytelling sucks, if they actually cared to tell a proper story. Then it would maybe be a good story, but a good story not to my taste.

ETA: for example, I hear this new story about the Mandalorian is great. Many people say so.
From what I understood this is some Boba Fett guy. Which means evil assassin, bounty hunter or some such.
Which is why I don't intend to watch it, even though it is good.
I like stories with GOOD protagonists.
But I don't say any story with an not good protagonist is bad., just not my taste.


Yeah, me neither. Some ideas are just not my thing, even if technically well done. TLJ is neither my thing, nor we'll done, thus my irritation with the million dollar storytelling fiasco.


Know what?
I know the trope you are talking.
But I have ever once seen it done successfully with a character who is known before, without giving them a story of how that character development came to pass.

I am tired of repeating, but my main problem is that they don't give any effort in telling the story how Luke become bitter stupid grumpy evil man.
For you it's enough that it fits a trope as it seems. For me, tropes need to fit the story.

I'm ok with not knowing how he reached that point. Because it took decades to get there. We're not going to know everything that happened in a character's life. It happened, and the little the told me was enough for me. Just like I'm ok with the retired gunslinger. I understand that it hits harder for Luke because we grew up with him as a hero and all of the EU with him as a hero.

But I imagine that a lot of people would feel the same if we grew up with all of those other retired/washed up heroes in those other tales. We don't focus on it because it isn't their story, It's the story of the new character trying to get the hero to reclaim their heroic nature.

And Mandalorian is about a bounty hunter, but he very much is an honorable guy.

[Mightymosy]

I have trouble imagining a honorable person who works as bounty hunter. Then again, honor is a hollow concept that caused more death and cruelty than most...

So, ok, I give you that. A bounty hunter can be honorable. An honorable piece of crap.
Not saying anyone should not have fun with that fantasy, as I said. But it very much doesn't sound like a story I would like. I have never been a Boba Fett fan either.

[Tvtyrant]

Teenager Picard certantly would have some growing to do before he's the mature Captian we all know and love.

On a related note, what are your thoughts on Solo, reprising pre-falling-in-love-with-a-princess Han?

That is the opposite of what happens here. This is like if 10 years after NG Picard came back as Ricard. This isn't a prequel exploring how they became the cruddy person that becomes mature over three movies, this is a cruddy person reversing three movies.

If they made a Luke movie about his farm days showing why he doesn't care much about his aunt and uncle and why he is so whiney sure, go for it. Making him self-absorbed and whiney after he matured out if it is a flat degradation.

[jayem]

But I imagine that a lot of people would feel the same if we grew up with all of those other retired/washed up heroes in those other tales. We don't focus on it because it isn't their story, It's the story of the new character trying to get the hero to reclaim their heroic nature.

But in the normal story, most of those people that grew up with those retired heroes are 'fictional' not the real world readers.
Star Wars is already (retrospectively) a partial exception thanks to the prequel trilogy. Which again probably didn't help, the prequel trilogy had itself used some of the subversion credit, and then TFA cashed in a fair whack of suspension of disbelief. We'd had the prequel trilogy where the jedi are flawed and the bad guys win, then in TFA we have Luke MIA and the bad guys suddenly back, then at the end of the movie Luke is found and the bad guys are paused. Then at the start of next movie the bad guys turn out not to have been paused and Luke decides to go MIA again, so not only was the OT all in vain by TFA, but even TFA was itself made redundant by TLJ,

[Daimbert]

One thing I will say the new movies definitely show is that the original Star Wars themes are played out. Abrams couldn't generate much interest by copying them, Johnson went the subversive/mannerist approach and half the audience loved it. Clearly new story telling conventions are in order.

Abrams copied the notes but didn't get what made them interesting, which is why TFA failed. The themes that Star Wars was based have been popular for likely thousands of years; a good writer not merely aping should definitely be able to make something good out of them.

[dancrilis]

I think for the hyperspace ramming a comparison might be made to A New Hope: Luke has a chance of destroying the Death Star - Tarkin thinks the chance is not worth considering.
Tarkin is wrong here but he is only wrong because Han Solo returns and saves Luke who then makes a shot guided by what amounts to magic.
In The Last Jedi the First Order clearly think it is a serious threat, act like it is a serious threat and it turns out to be a serious threat - there is nothing it that scene that indicates that this couldn't be used every space battle.

People have been positively mentioning Rogue One, there is an equivalant scene in that where a small ship pushes a star destroyer into another star destroyer and chops in in half like it was a space sword - it is stupidity on screen - but unlike The Last Jedi it is also meaningless to the movie so it is hard to really care about it.

Johnson focused heavily on subversion, so if that is your thing it was great and if not it felt like an attack on the source material.

I quite like subversions, subversions can are fun and interesting - if they are done well.
The Last Jedi is just garbage.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I don't agree. I don't think Luke was "crapped on". I think it's Hamill's best performance, and his story arc is one of my favourite things about the movie.

Of all the possible arcs they could have given him, they chose the one that makes the least sense, given his actions in the OT.

In the OT, Obi-Wan and Yoda are two grumpy old men who, when faced with an apprentice who has fallen to the Dark Side, threw up their hands, said "Welp, can't do anything about this guy," and went off to go hide in the wilderness. Throughout ESB and RotJ, the two tell Luke over and over again, "You have to kill Vader, there's no good left in him, there's no other possible way to make this work out," and yet, despite two people who he respects deeply telling him that a walking talking incarnation of evil is irredeemable, Luke keeps saying "No, there's good in him, I can't kill him, I have to find another way."

When he hands himself over to Vader and meets the Emperor, Luke is face to face with the two most evil people in the galaxy with decades of evil acts behind them. His friends are at that very moment being killed by Imperial forces while the Emperor gloats about it to his face and Vader tries to kill him. Every moment he delays fighting back has the potential to cause much more death and destruction. And yet, his reaction to that scenario is still to wait, to watch, to hide, to persuade. "A Jedi uses the Force for defense, never for attack." And then, at the climax of his struggle, he throws away his saber and chooses the side of the Jedi and the Light, and redeems Vader, just as he said he would.


So then what do we see in TLJ? Luke is a grumpy old man who, when faced with an apprentice who might fall to the Dark Side--but hasn't yet and shows no sign of doing so any time soon or without Snoke pushing him to do so--has thrown up his hands, said "Welp, can't do anything about this guy," and gone off to go hide in the wilderness, following exactly the same path that Obi-Wan tried, and saw fail; that Yoda tried, and saw fail; and that Luke himself proved to be a pointless and ineffective approach. And when Rey come to Luke and says she wants to try to redeem Kylo, Luke tells her "You have to kill Kylo, there's no good left in him, there's no other possible way to make this work out," which is, again, the exact line of reasoning that he himself proved wrong with Vader.

And what exactly caused Kylo to go Dark? Well, when Luke saw a vision of Ben "destroying everything"--at some vague point in the future when no one is in immediate danger, and when he knows that taking Force visions as holy writ didn't exactly go well the last time--he doesn't wait, watch, consider, and try to talk to Ben later, he immediately pulls out his saber for no reason and scares Kylo into starting his murder spree.

To reiterate: OT Luke argued through months to years of training to give Vader the benefit of the doubt against Yoda's years of wisdom and Obi-Wan's friendship; ST Luke gives up at the first hint of darkness in Ben. OT Luke thinks redeeming Vader is possible despite not knowing if anyone coming back from the Dark Side was possible; ST Luke thinks redeeming Kylo is impossible after proving it was possible with Vader. OT Luke stands two feet away from both the Emperor and Vader and doesn't feel the need to grab a weapon before carefully considering the situation; ST Luke pulls a saber on a sleeping and harmless student--who is a young child and his own nephew--due to a vague and uncertain future vision that he should know not to trust immediately.

To get from the RotJ version to the TLJ version, Luke doesn't just have to get "old and cynical and depressed," as some have claimed, he has to suffer a complete personality transplant and three decades of severe memory loss.


Now, in the abstract, I don't mind Luke getting more cynical in his old age or mind that he wasn't able to redeem Kylo on his first try, and there are a bunch of reasonable ways they could have done the "Luke doesn't want to confront Kylo directly due to mistakes in the past so Rey has to do it" routine, if they really wanted to retread ESB beat-for-beat like that (which they shouldn't have; Johnson was all about "subversion" in TLJ, and Luke subverting the grumpy-old-mentor-who-dies-to-help-the-hero thing would have been a good subversion, for once).

If Luke had had premonitions of danger but waited too long to confront Ben and therefore got people killed and blamed himself for his failure, that would fit with his personality and values. If Luke had confronted Ben on time but failed, and then went after him to do something about it and failed and blamed himself, that would fit with his personality and values. (Might not have been the best idea to go up against Snoke, Ben, and all the Knights of Ren, but it would be consistent.) If Luke had confronted Ben and failed, went after him and failed, and was recuperating on Ahch-To because he was meditating and studying in preparation for trying again, that would fit with his personality and values. If Luke had confronted Ben and failed, went after him and failed, was too badly injured to ever go after Ben again and was sending out Force visions to Rey to persuade her to come there so he could train her and teach her to redeem him, that would fit with his personality and values. And so on and so forth.

But out of all the possible ways to take Luke out of the picture to try to pass the torch to Rey, TLJ chose the worst and least plausible one because it is the one way that goes point-for-point against every action and motivation of his in the OT. TLJ absolutely "crapped on" Luke, and I, at least, view TLJ's version of Luke as flat-out character assassination.

One thing I will say the new movies definitely show is that the original Star Wars themes are played out. Abrams couldn't generate much interest by copying them, Johnson went the subversive/mannerist approach and half the audience loved it. Clearly new story telling conventions are in order.

The original themes aren't played out at all; there are plenty of stories you can tell with those themes and make perfectly serviceable movies. Anyone who understands and actually likes Star Wars, has an original bone in their body, and has better scriptwriting skills than the average 5-year-old could make a Star Wars movie drawing from the themes and aesthetics of the original and make at least a serviceable movie, if not a great one.

The problem is that TFA is a straight-up clone of ANH and TLJ is an obvious ripoff of ESB and RotJ, with the former regurgitating the original themes/plots/characters without really understanding them and the latter taking the original themes/plots/characters just to completely undermine them, so Abrams and Johnson completely failed to meet even that very low bar.

[TheSummoner]

The "subverting expectations" meme just means doing something unexpected. It's no more than an unexpected twist with some added pretentiousness by having to use a different phrase to describe it. It worked well in (early) Game of Thrones with Ned Stark's death and the Red Wedding because GRRM put in the work. Both events were unexpected, but they were also logical results of the actions taken by the characters involved. It worked poorly in Disney Star Wars because they put no next to no work into filling in what happened between Episodes VI and VII and just dropped characters with the names of ones we know but different personalities. Because the twists come out of nowhere. Because quite bluntly, Rian Johnson is neither as smart nor as talented as he thinks he is.

Regarding what he did to Luke in particular, join my voice to the chorus of "he crapped on the character." Nerds on the internet can argue all they want about Luke's character and what he'd do and why he'd never become the winy, miserable hermit Rian Johnson wanted him to be, but if there's one person who really does know the character, it's Mark Hamill. Disney had the best possible resource for the writing the character available and they didn't use it.

"I told Rian 'I fundamentally disagree with virtually everything you've decided about my character' "

"I almost had to think of Luke as another character. Maybe he's Jake Skywalker."

[Hopeless]

I have never watched The Last Jedi and unless its that fan edit will probably never will.

I know enough about the story of its plot to understand how bad it actually is but I'm more inclined to believe the cast is why its actually liked.

Its clear they didn't sit down and work out all three movies before starting filming.

I'm not sure what Rian was thinking but calling that subversion is actually rubbish try the story group or whoever proof read that mess didn't so their job properly!

Could his basic plot have worked despite what it revealed about Luke?

Yes it could for example Leia is Ben's teacher and not Luke because of her senatorial duties which were combined with representing Luke's order allowed Snoke access to Ben whom he corrupted giving him Sith relics and artefacts to tempt him unaware that the Emperor trying desperately to survive being blown to smithereens had possessed Leia's then unborn child only he suffered amnesia so slumbered unaware that his presence was detected but not recognised.

Leia finds out what Snoke has been doing sends Ben to Luke.
Luke tries to help Ben discovers the Emperor possessing him results in a fierce duel mentally which frees Ben although he's still pretty much still tottering on the dark divide.

Luke has been left mentally scarred by the effort during this the New Republic goaded by Snoke and aided by a tracking beacon Ben unknowingly carried with him they bombed Luke's temple thinking he was reforming the Sith.

Please remember they pretty much exiled Leia after finding out she was Anakin's daughter and given her efforts in the war why would they trust Luke when its clear he moved his order away from the New Republic to avoid repeating the mistakes the Prequel Jedi committed by remaining too close.

So Ben finds the Temple under attack and thinks Luke's dead due to being buried in the rubble.
He leads the survivors to safety eventually a group forms with him into the Knights of Ren a new identity to protect themselves as they take the fight back to the enemy... the New Republic!

Maybe reveal the New Republic managed to persuade some of the other surviving Prequel Jedi to reform an order with them making Leia's job harder but they're the ones Kylo Ren kills earning his moniker as the Jedi Killer and he eventually is contacted and joins the First Order a small group dedicated to fighting against the New Republic's prejudice against what it sees as imperial humans instead of prejudice being fanned by Snoke to weaken the New Republic from within.

Luke crawls free discovers the temple in ruins and possibly a few other survivors unwilling to leave the dead unburied and eventually travels to Acht-Tu seeking help for his mental condition more due to the duel with the Emperor's spirit that he defeated and expelled from Ben.

R2 lets Leia know what actually happened which leads to her asking Lor San Tekka for help forging a fake map to Luke so she can find out how badly Snoke has infiltrated the New Republic.

Instead of throwing that lightsabre away just have it handed to Luke the moment Leia is spaced so we get a scene of Luke helping his twin sister save herself thereby explaining that much better and let Rey think he discarded it for no reason instead of what the audience knows is the case thereby avoiding the problems posed by how Luke is treated in this movie.

That lightsabre gave Rey visions why not forcibly restore Luke's connection to the force?

Seeing his sister in danger would make him act now wouldn't it?

I liked the idea about Canto Blight, but not what I heard about how it was used.
Have Holdo send Finn not Poe, its actually a trap but one she wants to use to sneak someone aboard the Supremacy to deal with its hyperspace tracker and Holdo doesn't give a damn about the former storm trooper so this would work.
Instead Finn escapes the ambush with Rose and BB-8 meeting DJ who gets them aboard the Supremacy by handing Finn over so he not only gets paid by the Resistance but also the First Order which fits his supposed mantra!

He doesn't reveal anything about the Resistance as why would he they wouldn't reveal their plan to Finn given the security leaks and Poe is more concerned with the Resistance given Holdo's refusal to reveal what she's doing.

I'd reveal the tracker the First Order are using is because the New Republic used Imperial tech specifically the tracker seen in Star Wars Rebels to track the Phantom to tag all New Republic ships to insure a Rebel Alliance is never formed against them!

Leia suspected the truth and Han returned to smuggling to supply them with untagged ships as well as supplies they couldn't get from the New Republic.

Unlike the New Republic the First Order can't track their ships which is why Holdo sought them out, yes she's New Republic not Resistance why not after all this allows an explanation about the New Republic, gives a reason why she doesn't trust them and resolves a lot of the problems with The Last Jedi!

D'Qar would have been mostly evacuated before the First Order ship arrived in the system with the last part leaving as the movie starts, have it blow up the base rather than the arriving New Republic ships as they're unaware its now unoccupied and emptied.

Instead of Hux its the Captain of that Dreadnought so its not Hux who messed up so you don't ruin your villains reputation!

Holdo and her surviving New Republic ships were led here by Rose and her people after being captured at the end of Cobalt Squadron the intention was that Holdo needed Leia's help before Hosnian Prime was blown up however her orders was to escort Leia back to Hosnian Prime so the Senate can officially dissolve the Resistance thereby handing Snoke almost a complete victory had he just hesitated long enough for Holdo to complete her mission.

I would have revealed Rey was Phasma's niece making Phasma the Darth Vader of this trilogy with Hux helping her as he's more aware of the true threat the attack on Hosnian Prime was intended as a warning however Snoke's loyalist senators wasn't present which is how Snoke's Order moved in and took over so quickly.

I would have revealed the Inquisitors as the Big Bad of this trilogy so most of the New Republic was under their control by the time of Return of the Separatists.

They hopelessly outmatched what better way to round out the series by having the surviving Separatists reappear to answer Leia's call for help?

Ending scene instead of Luke dying its Leia passing as they detect a massive force approaching and its revealed as the Separatist who take one look at the approaching First Order ships after learning Princess Leia Organa has just died and they announce, "Separatists Attack" as the last scene.

I think they could have done better fortunately the Mandalorian proves that!

[Devonix]

The "subverting expectations" meme just means doing something unexpected. It's no more than an unexpected twist with some added pretentiousness by having to use a different phrase to describe it. It worked well in (early) Game of Thrones with Ned Stark's death and the Red Wedding because GRRM put in the work. Both events were unexpected, but they were also logical results of the actions taken by the characters involved. It worked poorly in Disney Star Wars because they put no next to no work into filling in what happened between Episodes VI and VII and just dropped characters with the names of ones we know but different personalities. Because the twists come out of nowhere. Because quite bluntly, Rian Johnson is neither as smart nor as talented as he thinks he is.

Regarding what he did to Luke in particular, join my voice to the chorus of "he crapped on the character." Nerds on the internet can argue all they want about Luke's character and what he'd do and why he'd never become the winy, miserable hermit Rian Johnson wanted him to be, but if there's one person who really does know the character, it's Mark Hamill. Disney had the best possible resource for the writing the character available and they didn't use it.

"I told Rian 'I fundamentally disagree with virtually everything you've decided about my character' "

"I almost had to think of Luke as another character. Maybe he's Jake Skywalker."

Hamil has gone on record multiple time saying that the interviewer took his words out of context and only used the part of the interview to drum up controversy.

Hell I'ver personally had the same thing happen to me in interviews.

[Bobb]

The context of those interviews is that actors aren't really allowed or incentivised to attack their own movies.

Is it your position Mark Hamill is by and large okay with his character in TLJ?

Because we got 10 min youtube compilations of the man's soul dying that say otherwise.

[super dark33]

Well, youre free to be wrong

[Bobb]

Thank you. ;)

[TheSummoner]

I'm very curious what possible added context would turn "I disagree with virtually everything about my character" and "I had to pretend he was a different character" into "I'm happy with the decisions that were made and agree with them."

Everything I've seen screams that Hamill disagrees and dislikes the direction they went with Luke. He realizes that he's not the one writing it and ultimately they don't have to care about his opinion and he begrudgingly accepts that, but he's not happy. Just because Disney wasn't obligated to listen to Hamill doesn't mean it was smart to ignore him. The man has spent four decades in the head of Luke Skywalker. If anyone understands the character and how he would act, it's him.

[super dark33]

Oh i meant more about the opinion on the movie, not the whole discussion heh

[GloatingSwine]

The man has spent four decades in the head of Luke Skywalker. If anyone understands the character and how he would act, it's him.

If Mark Hamill had spent the entire intervening time since Return of the Jedi in the head of a character he hadn't played since 1983 he'd be crazier than the Joker (the character he has spent decades in the head of).

[The Glyphstone]

If Mark Hamill had spent the entire intervening time since Return of the Jedi in the head of a character he hadn't played since 1983 he'd be crazier than the Joker (the character he has spent decades in the head of).

Now I'm imagining a live action Batman Beyond with Hamill as Old Joker.

[dancrilis]

Now I'm imagining a live action Batman Beyond with Hamill as Old Joker.

He goes sane, cleans up his act, gets a veterarian qualification and takes care of stray cats - all around a good guy.

[Bobb]

Harley Quinn shows up. She's worried about him. He's been missing from the game too long. Doesn't he want to have some fun?