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  1. - Top - End - #391
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    Default Re: The Great Star Wars Watchthrough

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Alderaan is an entire planet with a government and everything. The Death Star is a military ship comparing the two is simply ludicrous.
    We actually (from the movies) know little about Alderaan and how it was ran - other then that there elected officials were in league with the rebellion, we don't know population, government structure etc.
    Also we know little about the day to day operations of the Death Star and how it was crewed - it is entirely possible that there are families of officers present, a few bars, etc for down time. It was a massive structure after all.

    Vader was given a fleet to command and is reporting to the Emperor so no, he isn't a lone wolf. And Cloud City isn't part of the Empire. It gets conquered and invaded. Also, how is it highly suspicious? It's a mining operation and Han gently mocks Londo for having becomed "respectable"?
    My point was more that Vader seems to operate differently then everyone else we see and should not be taken as an example of how some normal officer was behaving in some part of the galaxy that the movies never touched.
    As for suspicious - you didn't find Lando a bit shifty (trying to help senior rebellion members - by keeping them 'safe' on his personal city - alone should raise eyebrows).

    They invaded the Ewoks' land.
    I suspect that the land was officially part of the Empire - but regardless they left the Ewoks alone.
    It was only when rebellion members convinced the natives that they were gods that the Ewoks went to war against the Empire.

    I suppose it comes full circle - Obi-Wan (a Jedi) lies to Luke to use him as a foot soldier in his war, and Luke becomes a Jedi and lies to other innocents whose lives become pawns in his war.
    Such is likely want thinking that “Luminous beings are we…not this crude matter” will get you - who cares who dies providing you think cause is just.

  2. - Top - End - #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    We actually (from the movies) know little about Alderaan and how it was ran - other then that there elected officials were in league with the rebellion, we don't know population, government structure etc.
    Leia explicitly comments that it is peaceful and has no weapons. Tarkin asks her to name a military target instead and, when she does so, decides that that's too far away to use as a demonstration and blows it up anyway. So it's not a military target or a military threat, unlike the Death Star.

    Also we know little about the day to day operations of the Death Star and how it was crewed - it is entirely possible that there are families of officers present, a few bars, etc for down time. It was a massive structure after all.
    This would still be far less than on a civilian planet and something that the people on it would have to accept as its a military target engaging in military actions. This argument would be like blaming an alien species for targeting civilians if they destroyed a Galaxy class starship in battle in Star Trek The Next Generation because they happen to be on-board. Well, how can we take out this thing that we're engaging in battle with without killing the civilians that they deliberately put on board?

    My point was more that Vader seems to operate differently then everyone else we see and should not be taken as an example of how some normal officer was behaving in some part of the galaxy that the movies never touched.
    No, some were certainly better than that and most couldn't get away with it. But neither Tarkin nor the Emperor ever strongly reigned him in despite clearly knowing what he was like.

    As for suspicious - you didn't find Lando a bit shifty (trying to help senior rebellion members - by keeping them 'safe' on his personal city - alone should raise eyebrows).
    It's explicitly a small mining colony, small enough that the Empire in general wouldn't bother. And Vader changing the deal constantly is never remarked upon by anyone on the Empire's side and so seems to be fairly standard.

    I suspect that the land was officially part of the Empire - but regardless they left the Ewoks alone.
    It was only when rebellion members convinced the natives that they were gods that the Ewoks went to war against the Empire.
    Actually, they only agree to go to war against the Empire after Threepio tells them the presumably accurate story of what the Empire has been doing elsewhere.
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  3. - Top - End - #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daimbert View Post
    That was kinda the problem, though. The people who would have been most excited for the movie weren't the average movie goer, but would at least be the people who went to TLJ, and they definitely would have been aware of the backlash. For those who weren't like that, they wouldn't have had that, but then wouldn't have any particular reason to go see the movie either.



    And yet they're STILL portrayed as more competent and menacing than the First Order is [grin].


    But People who both loved and hated TLJ seemed to equally have no interest in Solo. Hell even from the first announcement that the movie was being made. Even on this site everyone just groaned about how we didn't want it.

    Solo was simply a film no one was asking for. The casual fans didn't care, and most of the hardcore fans were annoyed it was even being made.
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  4. - Top - End - #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daimbert View Post
    Leia explicitly comments that it is peaceful and has no weapons.
    But Leia is also a liar - we see this in the film, she even lies in that scene.

    Effectively this is a woman who when the authorities pull over her vehicle she shoots at them and then claims to be on diplomatic work - would you trust her?

    So it's not a military target or a military threat, unlike the Death Star.
    The main representative of the planet is high up in the rebellion (and other movies show that the planet had been compromised for a long time), it is likely that the Empire knew that when they made the call to destroy it.

    This would still be far less than on a civilian planet and something that the people on it would have to accept as its a military target engaging in military actions. This argument would be like blaming an alien species for targeting civilians if they destroyed a Galaxy class starship in battle in Star Trek The Next Generation because they happen to be on-board. Well, how can we take out this thing that we're engaging in battle with without killing the civilians that they deliberately put on board?
    That is a fair comparision -however it really depends on the nature of Alderaan, it is possible that the effectively the entire planet is loyal to the rebellion and that it is effectively a rebellion recruitment camp - that would make it a valid military target in line with the Death Star (or perhaps in a more direct comparision star killer base from the sequel trilogy).

    No, some were certainly better than that and most couldn't get away with it. But neither Tarkin nor the Emperor ever strongly reigned him in despite clearly knowing what he was like.
    Well Tarkin did reign him in and once the Emperor was present he seemed to cut well down on the killing.

  5. - Top - End - #395
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    Default Re: The Great Star Wars Watchthrough

    Tarkin openly admits Alderaan is a civilian target and not a military target, mere seconds before destroying it.
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  6. - Top - End - #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Tarkin openly admits Alderaan is a civilian target and not a military target, mere seconds before destroying it.
    Tarkin asks Leia to name 'another target, a military target' implying that he does not view Alderaan as a military target - however Tarkin was also lying in that scene and having Leia believe that she had convinced him of Alderaan's peaceful nature would have suited his aims of getting a location.

    Effectively the scene was two liars lying to each other - I am not sure I would take anything as a given from their words.

  7. - Top - End - #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    But Leia is also a liar - we see this in the film, she even lies in that scene.
    Which doesn't mean that she lies all the time. And what we note about Leia is that she tends towards plausible lies, or lies where she can say that what she said was true from a certain point of view, in line with Obi-Wan. For example, when she gives the name of Dantooine as the Rebel base she doesn't pick a random planet, but one that HAD a Rebel base but that was now abandoned. Since at at least some point she was hoping to pick up Obi-Wan and take him to Alderaan she could argue, at least to herself, that it WAS a diplomatic mission to bring a former general to high-ranking discussions with her father. So, given that, we have to note that she never says that Alderaan has nothing to do with the Rebellion, but merely that it's peaceful and doesn't have weapons, which would be true but wouldn't mean that it's not sympathetic to the Rebels.

    Additionally, to believe that she's lying there would be to make her out to be an idiot, not a liar. In the other cases, when she lied it was at least possible that they might believe her -- the Empire doesn't have proof that the ship received transmissions nor does it have the plans, and they didn't know that the base on Datooine was abandoned -- but Tarkin not only OUGHT to know the situation on Alderaan, he also clearly DOES. And he never corrects her on that. So more likely than not she isn't lying there.

    Effectively this is a woman who when the authorities pull over her vehicle she shoots at them and then claims to be on diplomatic work - would you trust her?
    Many people point out that as a diplomatic vessel the Empire didn't have the authority to pull them over anyway until the Emperor dissolves the Senate, so it's more her firing at crooked cops breaking the law.

    The main representative of the planet is high up in the rebellion (and other movies show that the planet had been compromised for a long time), it is likely that the Empire knew that when they made the call to destroy it.
    This would essentially be taking out an entire city because the dictator running the country is corrupt. And given their power the Empire almost certainly had more surgical options available if they considered it such a threat. However, it's clear that they don't. Tarkin chooses it because he can use it to extract the location of the Rebel base from Leia and it works as an object lesson to any other system that even attempts to be sympathetic to the Rebels.


    That is a fair comparision -however it really depends on the nature of Alderaan, it is possible that the effectively the entire planet is loyal to the rebellion and that it is effectively a rebellion recruitment camp - that would make it a valid military target in line with the Death Star (or perhaps in a more direct comparision star killer base from the sequel trilogy).
    As stated above, Tarkin never uses that as any kind of reason to destroy it, so it's unlikely that that's why he's doing it.

    Well Tarkin did reign him in and once the Emperor was present he seemed to cut well down on the killing.
    Tarkin didn't seem to do that because he considered it not in keeping with the principles of the Empire, and did seem to do that more because he was tired of the conflict. He also was perfectly willing to destroy an entire planet and didn't say a word about Leia being tortured for information. As for the Emperor, Vader never really had a chance to do that sort of killing in that movie, and so it's no sign that the Emperor reigned him in. After all, he didn't kill Piett after Cloud City either, and there's no situation worse than that one in the movie. Add in the Emperor's sadistic glee at the deaths of the Rebellion and while shocking Luke, and it's hard to see him being a restraining influence on Vader.
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  8. - Top - End - #398
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    Default Re: The Great Star Wars Watchthrough

    Smaller scale, but lest we forget the Empire also massacred the Lars homestead and all the occupants of a Jawa sandcrawler. For harboring a droid none of them could have known was holding Imperial property.
    Last edited by Dire_Flumph; 2020-01-20 at 09:52 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daimbert View Post
    Additionally, to believe that she's lying there would be to make her out to be an idiot, not a liar. In the other cases, when she lied it was at least possible that they might believe her -- the Empire doesn't have proof that the ship received transmissions nor does it have the plans, and they didn't know that the base on Datooine was abandoned -- but Tarkin not only OUGHT to know the situation on Alderaan, he also clearly DOES. And he never corrects her on that. So more likely than not she isn't lying there.
    Except as a recent movie has shown they chased her from a battle - there was no hope of them believing her on being on a diplomatic mission.

    Tarkin has no reason to correct her - he wants her to believe that he believes her, and afterwards when he is going to destroy the planet it doesn't matter if she thinks he believes her anymore.

    Many people point out that as a diplomatic vessel the Empire didn't have the authority to pull them over anyway until the Emperor dissolves the Senate, so it's more her firing at crooked cops breaking the law.
    But the fact that the senate would never stand for something is proof that for decades the senate could hold the empire to account, and even when it is abolished governers are still running individual regions (presumedly with no issues).


    This would essentially be taking out an entire city because the dictator running the country is corrupt.
    Or taking out a terrorist training camp - we don't know.

    Add in the Emperor's ... glee ...
    Well the Emperor is just a happy guy - smiling, laughing and having fun are clearly the ways of the Sith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph View Post
    Smaller scale, but lest we forget the Empire also massacred the Lars homestead and all the occupants of a Jawa sandcrawler. For harboring a droid none of them could have known was holding Imperial property.
    We actually don't see that, Luke assumes sand people Obi-Wan mentions stormtroopers, but Obi-Wan has been lying to Luke about the formation of the Empire and seems to want Luke to hate them - it suits his purposes to lie about who killed his remaining family.
    Last edited by dancrilis; 2020-01-20 at 10:19 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #400
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    Default Re: The Great Star Wars Watchthrough

    Solo (2/2)



    Thoughts While Watching

    • When we last left our ‘heroes’, the band had finally been fully assembled and they were in the middle of a hyperspace journey to Kessel.
    • Han tries to pick up where he left off with Qi’ra. When Beckett tries to warn him off, Han tells him that maybe he knows her better than Beckett does. Beckett: “Maybe you don’t know her well enough.” I’m getting to kind of like Beckett, it’s a pity he’s got a big flashing death mark over his head.
    • Beckett: ”Assume everyone you know will betray you and you will never be disappointed.” Hint, hint.
    • Pretty storm-and-sea visuals for the space journey.
    • Qi’ra decides to punch Han a bit. Just in case there weren’t enough red flags on her already.
    • The humans take over the control room of the mining facility very easily, the droid starts a rebellion, and Chewie goes to rescue some Wookiees.
    • More of this ‘coaxium’ stuff. I guess the filmmakers didn’t want to confuse viewers with too many types of valuable goods, so everyone in the film is chasing the same thing.
    • Meanwhile, Lando is dictating his memoirs.
    • L3 gets hit on the way out. Lando rescues half of her and gets shot in the process, Han has to rescue Lando, and Chewie decides to stay with Han.
    • And Han finally gets to fly the Falcon. It looks weird without its forward notch, I guess the escape pod is supposed to be jettisoned by the end of the movie.
    • Of course heists aren’t allowed to go smoothly, so Han runs into a Star Destroyer on the way out. And presumably this is where Han makes the Kessel Run in less than however-many-it-was parsecs.
    • Chewie’s 190 years old, apparently.
    • The visuals for the Maelstrom and the Maw are kind of cool (though really dark) but it’s very hard to figure out what’s supposed to be going on here. If the problem’s distance, don’t they need to be making hyperspace jumps or something?
    • And now they’ve run into a space kraken. Yeah, this is basically just Pirates of the Caribbean at this point.
    • They lead the kraken into the whirlpool black hole.
    • This fuel-mechanics-injection-escaping-black-hole scene is taking a long time.
    • But they eventually get out. Fuel’s refined, Falcon is trashed, but they’re all ready for the showdown with Dryden (which probably won’t end well for Han and definitely won’t end well for Beckett).
    • Qi’ra: “You’re the good guy.” Han: “I’m a terrible person.” I’m pretty sure he’s neither . . . ?
    • Oh yeah, those other criminal guys. I guess they’re the penultimate boss before Dryden.
    • The penultimate boss guy takes his helmet off to reveal that he’s a freckled 16-year-old girl. Uh, okay.
    • She gives a speech that’s supposed to indicate that she’s the good guy. I’m really confused now.
    • Beckett leaves with a name-check to Tatooine, Han decides to sign up with Freckles.
    • Dryden brings over his floating monolith.
    • ”You don’t know everything.” “No, just a bit more than you.”
    • Dryden pretends to be happy with Han, Han pretends to want to keep working with him, Qi’ra pretends to be on both of their sides.
    • Surprise! Beckett sold Han out, not Qi’ra. With hindsight, it wasn’t a smart idea for Han to trust his life to that many people. Well, Beckett did warn him.
    • Dryden sets Qi’ra up to kill Han, Han reveals the real super-explosive hyperfuel is in the case right there, and Beckett decides to betray Dryden as well.
    • Han vs Dryden, until Qi’ra steps in and seems to betray Han, then actually betrays Dryden, then (presumably) gets ready to betray Han again.
    • Huh, apparently Qi’ra’s boss is Darth Maul. Guess that getting cut in half thing didn’t stick.
    • Han kills Beckett, Qi’ra leaves, Han hands over the coaxium to Freckles, and we get told that it’s all been in aid of the Rebellion. Come on, guys, the galaxy’s bigger than the same bunch of people.
    • Han gets given a tiny souvenir. Okay, seriously, why isn’t Han keeping a few million credits of this stuff for himself? It makes no sense for him to just hand it all over. He was supposed to be a criminal street rat, but now he gets told a sob story and he’s willing to be a convert for Freckle Girl? Why is he this naive, selfless guy all of a sudden?
    • A final card game with Lando, and Han flies off in the Falcon. And end credits.


    Overall Thoughts

    Well, that was . . . a movie, I guess.

    I’m kind of struggling to figure out how I feel about Solo. It’s not terrible, it’s not great, it’s not inspiring or offensive, it didn’t make me happy or sad. It’s just sort of . . . there.

    When you have a movie centred around one character, that character needs a good narrative arc, and the big problem with Solo is that Han doesn’t really have one. He starts off as a nice-guy criminal who’s sort of idealistic, and ends up as a nice-guy criminal who's sort of idealistic. He gets a lot of stuff, but no real character development . . . which is what he needs.

    It kind of feels like the writers of this movie signed up to tell a scoundrel origin story (where the innocent character is taught to be hard-bitten and cynical) when what they really wanted was to tell a morality story (where the cynical character learns to be selfless and idealistic). So they sort of try to do both and don’t really do either. If end-of-movie Han is supposed to be the self-centred scoundrel that we know from Episode IV, why does he give away all his money? But if he’s supposed to be a good guy, then why is he heading off to work with gangsters? Young Han comes across as someone with no long-term plans and who doesn’t really know what he’s doing, which is probably realistic for a 20-year-old but which isn’t all that interesting to watch.

    Like the old Star Wars EU, this film spends a ton of time explaining the origin for every little facet of Han’s character. Here’s how Han got his gun. Here’s how he met Chewie. Here’s how he met Lando. Here’s how he won the Falcon off Lando. Here’s how the Falcon got its notch at the front. Here’s how he got involved with Jabba. Here's how he did the Kessel Run. Did we really need to know all this stuff?

    Sadly, the answer’s probably ‘no’, and that pretty much sums up the whole movie. It’s an origin story for a character who didn’t need one.


    Final Grade

    D+. It’s better than Force Awakens and way better than Last Jedi, but it’s not really worth seeing unless you’ve got nothing better to do.

    Next up, the final film in the Disney Trilogy, Rise of Skywalker.
    Last edited by Saph; 2020-01-20 at 01:55 PM.
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  11. - Top - End - #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post

    Or taking out a terrorist training camp - we don't know.


    Well the Emperor is just a happy guy - smiling, laughing and having fun are clearly the ways of the Sith.


    We actually don't see that, Luke assumes sand people Obi-Wan mentions stormtroopers, but Obi-Wan has been lying to Luke about the formation of the Empire and seems to want Luke to hate them - it suits his purposes to lie about who killed his remaining family.
    {scrubbed}I dont think anyone would consider that an appropriate scale of responce.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-01-20 at 02:12 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    [*]More of this ‘coaxium’ stuff. I guess the filmmakers didn’t want to confuse viewers with too many types of valuable goods, so everyone in the film is chasing the same thing.
    OK, this point I don't get - they're after coaxium because they're trying to fix their previous screw-up, where they were supposed to steal coaxium.

    It's only a weird coincidence that the stuff they were trying to use for the bribe in the beginning was also coaxium - but that had the obvious narrative purpose of setting up that "this stuff is extremely expensive!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    [*]Huh, apparently Qi’ra’s boss is Darth Maul. Guess that getting cut in half thing didn’t stick.
    Well, we already knew that.

  13. - Top - End - #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMX View Post
    Well, we already knew that.
    Not if you don't watch the cartoons or read the books or comics. That was a surprise to a lot of people.
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  14. - Top - End - #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Not if you don't watch the cartoons or read the books or comics. That was a surprise to a lot of people.
    I thought it would be, but I talked with friends and family who were more Star Wars casual, and none of them were confused by it. Most didn't connect it to being Maul at all. If you don't then I assume it just seems like a 2nd movie villain setup. I do like that you can see his mechanical legs in shot. I got to meet Ray Park years ago and he seemed like he loved the role and wished he could have continued it in the later prequels. Glad he got a chance to come back at least for a bit.

    The one thing that I wonder most about still is the Enfys Nest reveal. The characters act like seeing her is some major surprise, but I've got no idea why. Is it just because she's a young girl? Seeing we are introduced to Teenage Senator Leia and Teenage Queen Amidala five minutes into their respective movies that doesn't seem to be enough. Was she supposed to be Val's daughter? How would Han know that? She doesn't look that much like Thandie Newton.

  15. - Top - End - #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Not if you don't watch the cartoons or read the books or comics. That was a surprise to a lot of people.
    Funny-ish story. I watched Solo with my father. Loved Star Wars, never went into anything except the movies and a few games.

    When that reveal happened he had to stop and try to puzzle out what was going on. Because he was certain Maul died.

    After I explained that in the cartoon Maul survived being cut in half and dropped down a huge pit. His response was “that’s stupid.” And I don’t think he’s seen a Star Wars thing since. Even with me saying Mando is actually good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Not if you don't watch the cartoons or read the books or comics. That was a surprise to a lot of people.
    In which case, the answer is, "you should watch hisclone wars arc and his Rebels arc- this movie, and any Shadows of the Empire follow-up, is clearly filling in the gap between them."
    Last edited by Rakaydos; 2020-01-20 at 02:46 PM.

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    Solo was a good movie in my opinion. I'm glad that you're being honest and critical about the Star Wars critical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Not if you don't watch the cartoons or read the books or comics. That was a surprise to a lot of people.
    I figured the "WTF? He was cut in half and dropped down a bottomless hole!" reaction was loud enough to spoil that for pretty much everyone.

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    The Empire's agents are pretty sympathetic to be honest. The legally elected Emperor rescued the galaxy from a robot genocide and has ushered in an era of peace, if not exactly prosperity. If you were raised in that it would be hard to believe that the Emperor is effectively an inner planet lizardman bent on galactic domination.

    Most of the rebels seem to come from poorer less developed worlds, at which point you have a classic "us vs. them." I'm not sure most people would rise up and overthrow their government over that kind of scenario.

    The death star is very snidely whiplash, which is what I liked about Rogue One. Having a completed Death Star is a sign of strength, having a partially made one revealed is a sign maybe your government is not the good guy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph View Post
    I thought it would be, but I talked with friends and family who were more Star Wars casual, and none of them were confused by it. Most didn't connect it to being Maul at all.
    I'm willing to bet that was due to not thinking Maul would have survived being cut in half. Like, Dooku got beheaded, so if you have an older, bearded, Christopher Lee-lookin' dude in a new movie set around Rebellion era, it'd make sense to not think it's Dooku. Because he presumably died.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Funny-ish story. I watched Solo with my father. Loved Star Wars, never went into anything except the movies and a few games.

    When that reveal happened he had to stop and try to puzzle out what was going on. Because he was certain Maul died.

    After I explained that in the cartoon Maul survived being cut in half and dropped down a huge pit. His response was “that’s stupid.” And I don’t think he’s seen a Star Wars thing since. Even with me saying Mando is actually good.
    I agree with your dad. He not only got cut in half, he also fell down a massive hole after being cut in half. I like what they did with his character after that, but maybe they shouldn't have cut him in half and had him fall down an enormous pit?

    Also, sad you can't get him into the Mandalorian. With only what I've heard of him just there, I think he'd love it. Then again, I think anyone'd love it. It's amazing. Tell your dad random internet person thinks he'll love it, surely that will help!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaydos View Post
    In which case, the answer is, "you should watch hisclone wars arc and his Rebels arc- this movie, and any Shadows of the Empire follow-up, is clearly filling in the gap between them."
    I'm not a big fan of "but watch this ancillary material to explain it!" Stuff in the movies should be supported by the movies. They're by far the biggest exposure most people will have to Star Wars, so the elements of the story need to be self-contained. A followup movie where they explain how he survived? Totally acceptable, especially considering how they did the reveal in Solo. Hell, I hope that comes out, I want to see where it goes with Maul and Crimson Dawn on the big screen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaydos View Post
    In which case, the answer is, "you should watch hisclone wars arc and his Rebels arc- this movie, and any Shadows of the Empire follow-up, is clearly filling in the gap between them."
    The point is I shouldn't have to. The movie should stand on its own.

    This is particularly true if you're transcending mediums. It's not unreasonable for a series of movies in the same universe to expect that you've watched the other movies. See: the MCU. The issue comes when you have to know stuff from TV series, comic books, the EU, etc.

    To make another MCU comparison, imagine if Agent Coulson had just walked right back into the movies during Winter Soldier. People who watch that show knew he was alive. Anyone who was just watching the movies would be horribly confused, since his death forms a major part of The Avengers.

    Instead, they did the smart thing and kept him dead in the movie 'verse. And as far as I'm aware, nothing in Agents is required watching to understand the events of the movies.

    It's not the first time Star Wars has made this mistake either. Revenge of the Sith opens minutes after the conclusion of the Clone Wars cartoon. It opens in media res as Grievous (who wasn't in Attack) has already kidnapped Palpatine and is making off with him. This is the first time that we see him and all we get is a bit of opening crawl. The crushed chest isn't explained either, nor is why we care about this random droid dude who suddenly appeared in the middle of a movie trilogy.

    When I watched Solo, I didn't even realize it was Maul. He was 19 years and 8 movies ago, and died by being bisected and dropped down a bottomless pit. Why would I expect this to be the same character? So I was horribly confused when people were talking about the "shocking twist" at the end of the movie. You cannot assume that everyone watching your movie has seen every (or any) piece of Star Wars fiction out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph View Post
    The one thing that I wonder most about still is the Enfys Nest reveal. The characters act like seeing her is some major surprise, but I've got no idea why. Is it just because she's a young girl? Seeing we are introduced to Teenage Senator Leia and Teenage Queen Amidala five minutes into their respective movies that doesn't seem to be enough. Was she supposed to be Val's daughter? How would Han know that? She doesn't look that much like Thandie Newton.
    My issue was more that she tells a 2 minute sob story, and Han and Chewie instantly decides to risk their lives to hand her their 60 million credit fortune with no strings attached. Especially given that she and her gang tried to kill Han and Chewie and did kill two of their teammates.

    Han's supposed to have grown up a criminal, so it doesn't make much sense. If he was really that naive he'd have been dead before hitting puberty.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    My issue was more that she tells a 2 minute sob story, and Han and Chewie instantly decides to risk their lives to hand her their 60 million credit fortune with no strings attached. Especially given that she and her gang tried to kill Han and Chewie and did kill two of their teammates.

    Han's supposed to have grown up a criminal, so it doesn't make much sense. If he was really that naive he'd have been dead before hitting puberty.
    I have just watched Solo - and I agree, had Han taken the money and left (being jaded after the recent set of betrayals in his life) I think it would have been a much more solid ending, and more importantly lead into who he was in A New Hope much better (where he could actually have his story arc of learning to care about the wider galaxy).

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    But if he's just walked away with 60m, why keep doing business at all? His fare to take passengers to Alderaan was only 17,000.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph View Post
    The one thing that I wonder most about still is the Enfys Nest reveal. The characters act like seeing her is some major surprise, but I've got no idea why. Is it just because she's a young girl? Seeing we are introduced to Teenage Senator Leia and Teenage Queen Amidala five minutes into their respective movies that doesn't seem to be enough.
    Because Enfys Nest was presented to us as a fearsome pirate leader (that most audience member probably assumed was male to boot). Seeing a yound girl in that armor elicit basically the same reaction as seeing a weak old man in Vader's or Adam Driver in Kylo Ren's. We're expecting a grizzled veteran.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    It's not the first time Star Wars has made this mistake either. Revenge of the Sith opens minutes after the conclusion of the Clone Wars cartoon. It opens in media res as Grievous (who wasn't in Attack) has already kidnapped Palpatine and is making off with him. This is the first time that we see him and all we get is a bit of opening crawl. The crushed chest isn't explained either, nor is why we care about this random droid dude who suddenly appeared in the middle of a movie trilogy.
    Thing is Grievous is pretty self-explanatory. The droid have an army, he's the army's general makes sense. He is constantly coughing? Well, he's a bad guy, that's it. Why is he a cyborg? It looks cool is why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    When I watched Solo, I didn't even realize it was Maul. He was 19 years and 8 movies ago, and died by being bisected and dropped down a bottomless pit. Why would I expect this to be the same character? So I was horribly confused when people were talking about the "shocking twist" at the end of the movie. You cannot assume that everyone watching your movie has seen every (or any) piece of Star Wars fiction out there.
    I doubt there are many people watching Solo who have not watched TPM, though. And Maul is easily one of the mosst memorable parts of TPM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I'm willing to bet that was due to not thinking Maul would have survived being cut in half. Like, Dooku got beheaded, so if you have an older, bearded, Christopher Lee-lookin' dude in a new movie set around Rebellion era, it'd make sense to not think it's Dooku. Because he presumably died.

    I agree with your dad. He not only got cut in half, he also fell down a massive hole after being cut in half. I like what they did with his character after that, but maybe they shouldn't have cut him in half and had him fall down an enormous pit?
    Maul in TPM is an utter waste of a cool character design. He's got three lines and one of them is a grunt. I have long said that if the Prequel Trilogy had been more clever, it would have merged Dooku's and Maul's characters and lean more into their characterization in order to give Anakin an interesting ennemy to defeat come RotS. But I digress.

    While I support giving Maul some (any) character arc, the problem is that there is no place for him to suceed left. He cannot kill Obi-Wan or defeat Sidious because the OT showed us how they will die and they're the only characters from TPM he has connections too. Hell even Solo came up after Rebels introduced him as a half-crazed hermit stranded on a dead world with nothing to do but lament the utter failure that is his life. And I'm pretty sure it had also shown us that Kenobi will kill him and bury his body after a last pathetic attempt at revenge. So after we see him in Solo we know that whatever he is planning he will fail. And that he will not die so to get us invested is an uphill battle to say the least.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    I have just watched Solo - and I agree, had Han taken the money and left (being jaded after the recent set of betrayals in his life) I think it would have been a much more solid ending, and more importantly lead into who he was in A New Hope much better (where he could actually have his story arc of learning to care about the wider galaxy).
    In the Old EU, the Han Solo Trilogy ended with an old flame of Han's who is now with the early Rebellion getting him to put together a group of smugglers (Including Lando) for a job. Afterwards he goes to her only to find she's made off with all the money stating that she's sorry, but the Rebellion needed it more. The smugglers are left thinking Han was in on it all along and backstabbed them. This had Han needing to crawl back to Jabba to run small jobs for protection, left him bitter about the Rebellion ripping him off, and made Lando being so pissed in Empire all work a lot better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I agree with your dad. He not only got cut in half, he also fell down a massive hole after being cut in half. I like what they did with his character after that, but maybe they shouldn't have cut him in half and had him fall down an enormous pit?

    Also, sad you can't get him into the Mandalorian. With only what I've heard of him just there, I think he'd love it. Then again, I think anyone'd love it. It's amazing. Tell your dad random internet person thinks he'll love it, surely that will help!
    Oh he'd definitely love it. I got my love of Spaghetti Westerns pretty much directly from him. But I also don't think her wants to deal with all these new Netflix variants, which does Mando no favors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dienekes View Post
    Oh he'd definitely love it. I got my love of Spaghetti Westerns pretty much directly from him. But I also don't think her wants to deal with all these new Netflix variants, which does Mando no favors.
    Are they still doing the free week trial? Even if not, seven bucks for a one-month subscription, which you can cancel literally minutes after getting it so you don't have to worry about forgetting, can be reasoned away as "renting this show for a month." If you dad ever visited Blockbuster back in the day, he could see it as a similar concept, except without needing to leave the house.

    I'm just trying to see if I can help you in your quest, because I love that show so much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
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    I don't think combining Dooku and Maul would work, they have opposing story functions.

    Maul has to be the mystery assassin no one knows anything about, they don't know who he is or what he wants.

    Dooku has to be the supposedly utterly trustworthy ex Jedi, people like him, they know him, they trust him.

    One character can't be both those things.

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    Maul could have potentially had an interesting arc interacting with the Nightsisters and Dooku/Sidious, but he didn't get one in favour of endlessly futile attempts at revenge against Kenobi and building pointless empires that last a few weeks each.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard View Post
    I don't think combining Dooku and Maul would work, they have opposing story functions.

    Maul has to be the mystery assassin no one knows anything about, they don't know who he is or what he wants.

    Dooku has to be the supposedly utterly trustworthy ex Jedi, people like him, they know him, they trust him.

    One character can't be both those things.
    But there's no point in having a "mysterious assassin no one knows about" at all. Because Maul isn't a character. He's a roadblock for Obi-Wan and Qui-Gonn.

    The fallen former Jedi now leading a Rebellion against the corrupt Republic but secretely being a Sith is all that's needed to get the plot rolling.

    Edit: Maul does exactly two things in the movie: reveal to the Jedi that the Sith are still a thing and kill Qui-Gonn, Dooku could have done both of those.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2020-01-20 at 04:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    the Vector Legion [is the IFCC's new pawns], mark my words. Way too much unfinished business there and they already know about the Gates.
    I'll take that bet.

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