The Great Star Wars Watchthrough

[Ibrinar]

Ah but you didn't predict Palpatine force lightning a whole fleet before being killed with his own force lightning again by the person he tried turning to the dark side by making her strike him down.

Yeah wise choice not like there was much of a chance of you enjoying that movie at all.

[Rakaydos]

I'm not. I've drawn a very clear line - only information in the other movies, not ancillary material like TV shows, books, comics, games, etc. etc. I've been consistent on this point for years.

That's your line in the sand. That was also the official line under George Lucas. But is is NOT Disney's line. Disney's official stance is "Everything we make is Canon." They have been just as clear on that point as you have been on yours. We had ships be officially recanonized by appearing in a CELL PHONE GAME. The Imperial Raider Corvette was made by FFG for their minis game, as an imperial counterpart to the Tantive, but Disney canonized it for the Star Wars Battlefront II campaign.

Those who never saw the prequels would not know Maul, but they would get "this crime boss is a sith, what's his deal?" something which would be explained in any hypothetical sequel. (I lean toward a Shadows of the Empire remake with Maul and Vader vying for Palpatine's affections) Likewise, someone who has followed Maul's arc knows not only that maul is back and active in the underworld since the Clone Wars, but that he loses that position sometime in the intervening years before Rebels.

[Peelee]

That's your line in the sand. That was also the official line under George Lucas. But is is NOT Disney's line. Disney's official stance is "Everything we make is Canon." They have been just as clear on that point as you have been on yours. We had ships be officially recanonized by appearing in a CELL PHONE GAME. The Imperial Raider Corvette was made by FFG for their minis game, as an imperial counterpart to the Tantive, but Disney canonized it for the Star Wars Battlefront II campaign.

... And? Lucas had that same policy, albeit with different levels of Canon, and some things got syffled around when he decided to make changes. But still. In 2010? Maul living was canon. I never said it wasn't canon then. I'm not saying it's not canon now. I'm saying it's bad filmmaking if you need things in ancillary materials to understand the things in the movies. Hell, you can hear the mysterious message in Ep. IX's title crawl by looking up a video from when they released it in freaking Fortnite, of all things. Regardless of Canon, you shouldn't need to play Fortnite to have context on something that was in a one of the movies. Did you see a large amount of people who reacted to thar line with, "uh, when did that happen? Did I miss something?" I did, because that's a natural reaction to that. It being canon has nothing to do with the fact that the Venn diagram of people who watched the movie and people who played Fortnite at that time didn't have a massive crossover section.

[Sapphire Guard]

Spoiler: TROS

Show

Wow. The summary was perfect without even watching it.

Saw Gerrera was a cartoon character first, but Rogue One didn't go 'watch this episode to understand who this is and why they're here, they explained him like a new character.

[JadedDM]

Congrats, Saph. You've created something with a more disappointing ending than Star Wars.

[TheSummoner]

... And? Lucas had that same policy, albeit with different levels of Canon, and some things got syffled around when he decided to make changes. But still. In 2010? Maul living was canon. I never said it wasn't canon then. I'm not saying it's not canon now. I'm saying it's bad filmmaking if you need things in ancillary materials to understand the things in the movies. Hell, you can hear the mysterious message in Ep. IX's title crawl by looking up a video from when they released it in freaking Fortnite, of all things. Regardless of Canon, you shouldn't need to play Fortnite to have context on something that was in a one of the movies. Did you see a large amount of people who reacted to thar line with, "uh, when did that happen? Did I miss something?" I did, because that's a natural reaction to that. It being canon has nothing to do with the fact that the Venn diagram of people who watched the movie and people who played Fortnite at that time didn't have a massive crossover section.

Agreed. The story should stand on its own without the need for outside material. If you have to play some video game, read some comic book, or watch some TV series, than it does not stand on its own and the writers have failed. I say story rather than movie because each trilogy can be considered one overarching story and it's fair to have to watch, for example, Ep 5 to understand Ep 6.

[dancrilis]

"Everything we make is Canon."

Regardless of Canon, you shouldn't need to play Fortnite ...

Which raises the question of is Fortnite canon?


Seperately because a number of people are attacking RoS I will issue a partial defence of it:
1. The villains come across as fairly competent - and overall have a clear plan and goal, and screwups are not tolerated.
2. Luke and Han are treated with some respect (for there brief appearances).
3. The overt social messaging from The Last Jedi is nearly absent.

Those things alone make it superior to the other films in the set.
Are there issues with it yes - very much so - but they don't really ruin movie or take from the franchise, all in all it is a fairly fun movie.

To answer the expected review:

[CENTER][U][B][COLOR="#0000FF"]
The Rise of Skywalker
Well . . . the fans seem to like it so far, don't they? We'll be optimistic and say that this one'll be a B. I've generally enjoyed the end-of-trilogy movies in the past.

My opinion it doesn't deserve a B, but I could give it a somewhere between a D+ and a C+ (depending on how exacting I wanted to be on a given day) there is enough good to carry it over the finish line.

I pseudo lost interest in Star Wars movies after Last Jedi (hence why I skipped Solo until this week - not a boycott or anything just lack of interest), Rise of Skywalker has half revised my interest - but I would say that leaving it a few years might be a good idea to get over Last Jedi (or maybe it would be better early to wipe the horrible taste away - which does seem to be what it was sortof designed to do).

[TheSummoner]

1. The villains come across as fairly competent - and overall have a clear plan and goal, and screwups are not tolerated.

The villains designed their ships with shields that don't function in atmosphere and unable to know which way is up (thus unable to leave atmosphere). In what world is that competent?

[Wookieetank]

The villains designed their ships with shields that don't function in atmosphere and unable to know which way is up (thus unable to leave atmosphere). In what world is that competent?

To bad there's not any real world tech they could've used as reference material...

[dancrilis]

The villains designed their ships with shields that don't function in atmosphere and unable to know which way is up (thus unable to leave atmosphere). In what world is that competent?

Without getting into spoilers for Rise - where the individuals in the earlier movies come across as a joke, the guys in Rise don't really.
Technical issues like a single fighter being able to blow up the death star with a good shot (A New Hope), or being able to tie the legs of walkers together and trip them up (Empire Strikes Back) or having your half build stations shield be defended by people whose armour cannot stand up to rocks and spears (Return of the Jedi) - do not undermine the overall feel of the villains in the movies (until you start thinking about it).

For the piece you mentioned if they had gotten off (or if the planet had been different) they would not have been a problem - it was the movies "this is our only chance" weakness, which I don't like but will forgive.

[Rakaydos]

... And? Lucas had that same policy, albeit with different levels of Canon, and some things got syffled around when he decided to make changes. But still. In 2010? Maul living was canon. I never said it wasn't canon then. I'm not saying it's not canon now. I'm saying it's bad filmmaking if you need things in ancillary materials to understand the things in the movies. Hell, you can hear the mysterious message in Ep. IX's title crawl by looking up a video from when they released it in freaking Fortnite, of all things. Regardless of Canon, you shouldn't need to play Fortnite to have context on something that was in a one of the movies. Did you see a large amount of people who reacted to thar line with, "uh, when did that happen? Did I miss something?" I did, because that's a natural reaction to that. It being canon has nothing to do with the fact that the Venn diagram of people who watched the movie and people who played Fortnite at that time didn't have a massive crossover section.

Those who never saw the prequels would not know Maul, but they would get "this crime boss is a sith, what's his deal?" something which would be explained in any hypothetical sequel. (I lean toward a Shadows of the Empire remake with Maul and Vader vying for Palpatine's affections) Likewise, someone who has followed Maul's arc knows not only that maul is back and active in the underworld since the Clone Wars, but that he loses that position sometime in the intervening years before Rebels.

In case you missed the edit.

[Peelee]

In case you missed the edit.

Those who did not see the prequels would be largely unfamiliar with the Sith, as they have a single mention in TFA and TLJ, and none at all in the OT, Rogue One (if we choose to assume they saw any or all those movies and not the PT somehow), and Solo itself. Such people would see an alien with a lightsaber with no exposition. If you tried to say they were Sith, that would be meaningless to them. I fail to see how that edit strengthens your point, especially when my point that you're arguing is "needing non-film exposition to understand the films is bad filmmaking in a franchise where the films are the general public's largest exposure to it."

[Rakaydos]

Those who did not see the prequels would be largely unfamiliar with the Sith, as they have a single mention in TFA and TLJ, and none at all in the OT, Rogue One (if we choose to assume they saw any or all those movies and not the PT somehow), and Solo itself. Such people would see an alien with a lightsaber with no exposition. If you tried to say they were Sith, that would be meaningless to them. I fail to see how that edit strengthens your point, especially when my point that you're arguing is "needing non-film exposition to understand the films is bad filmmaking in a franchise where the films are the general public's largest exposure to it."

I'm not sure what your complaint is, then. The movie presents a crime lord with a lightsaber, implying he's a bigger bad for a later movie. How is that ANY different than, say, the Mandalorian season 1 finale? (other than movie=/=TV season, and the technicality of imperial reminant warlord vs crime lord.)

[Peelee]

I'm not sure what your complaint is, then. The movie presents a crime lord with a lightsaber, implying he's a bigger bad for a later movie. How is that ANY different than, say, the Mandalorian season 1 finale? (other than movie=/=TV season, and the technicality of imperial reminant warlord vs crime lord.)

Maul is an established character in the films. Gideon is a new character in either film or television, and hints as to why he has certain possessions are dropped preceding the reveal. Those who are familiar get foreshadowing, regardless of the level of familiarity. Further, this mythical viewer who has decided to see Solo without seeing the prequels is almost certainly not representative of the bulk of the audience, just as the viewers who have followed all ancillary materials and were familiar with Maul surviving were not representative. The average Solo viewer knew Maul got chopped in half and dumped down a massive shaft, then was running a crime ring later. As already said, this is no different than seeing Dooku later on despite us seeing him get decapitated. Which I maintain is a far better analogy than the season 1 finale of The Mandalorian.

[Saph]

Congrats, Saph. You've created something with a more disappointing ending than Star Wars.

I'm not quite sure whether I should be proud of that or not.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm not quite sure whether I should be proud of that or not.

I felt a great disturbance in the forums, as if a few dozen posters cried out in disappointment and were suddenly silenced...

[TheSummoner]

Without getting into spoilers for Rise - where the individuals in the earlier movies come across as a joke, the guys in Rise don't really.
Technical issues like a single fighter being able to blow up the death star with a good shot (A New Hope), or being able to tie the legs of walkers together and trip them up (Empire Strikes Back) or having your half build stations shield be defended by people whose armour cannot stand up to rocks and spears (Return of the Jedi) - do not undermine the overall feel of the villains in the movies (until you start thinking about it).

For the piece you mentioned if they had gotten off (or if the planet had been different) they would not have been a problem - it was the movies "this is our only chance" weakness, which I don't like but will forgive.

The things you mention are relatively minor flaws that can either be explained as oversights or limitations in otherwise effective design. The Death Star is massive. One vulnerable exhaust port is definitely a flaw, but presumably one that was overlooked by the designers and it proved fatal only because Luke essentially used magic to hit the right spot. The AT-AT have a vulnerability in that they're top-hevy and their long legs make them possible to trip, but they proved incredibly effective overall in their assault on Hoth. Only two were taken out in that battle and only one by exploiting that flaw. This would be a flaw in any walker vehicle and from the name I can only assume that the design is part of what makes them an "All Terrain" transport. It gives them a niche use, but one that that they're effective in. As for the Ewoks, I'm much more forgiving of them than most. I have no problem accepting that a small Imperial outpost could be defeated by primitives if caught off guard (and that if the Empire regrouped and retaliated, the Ewoks would be wiped out by an organized assault). Nor do I have a problem accepting that armor designed to protect against lasers is less effective against more primitive weaponry (compare a bulletproof vest's protective capability against bullets and knives for a real world example).

As for RoS

Spoiler

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The shields not working in atmosphere is a far larger flaw than walkers being topheavy. The walkers are shown to have incredibly strong armor and deflect everything the Rebels throw at them save for tripping them and shooting it after downed (either the now exposed "neck" is vulnerable or tripping it shut off the shields) or blowing it up from the inside. The Death Star Destroyers are trivial to destroy as a result of this flaw. We know that shields can function in atmosphere - we've been talking about Hoth and the entire reason the Empire had to do a ground assault was to take out the shield generators. Maybe the problem isn't the ships though, maybe it's specifically the atmosphere of Exogol that interferes with shields. I don't remember them saying that (and if it's the case, they should've been specific), nor do I recall any of the Rebel Resistance ships having that problem (correct me if I'm wrong on either), but let's give it the benefit of the doubt.

This still leaves the issues of not knowing which way is up. There's really no way to justify this one. There's a beacon on the ground and another on the main ship that says which way is up. They clearly have the capability of knowing which way us up, but the ships are inexplicably designed in such a way that they can't without being told by one of the beacons. Lacking basic navigation isn't the sort of flaw that you can explain as a design oversight. It's nothing short of incompetence. They rose from the ground earlier, why not just go the way the top of the ship is pointing? Palpatine used the force to lift them from the ground, why doesn't he use it to push them up?

Because the heroes need to win somehow and throwing that sort of massive handicap at the enemy is the only way for them to do it without it feeling even cheaper than it already does.

[afroakuma]

I'll be honest, Saph, while I'm part of the chorus who would have loved to see you scream at the endless mindnumbing incompetence of TROS and hand out a Z--, I completely get where you're coming from. It really is violently awful in a way the first two can't approach.

That said... What about splitting the difference and reacting to the Screenrant Pitch Meeting for it? :D

[TheSummoner]

I'm not sure what your complaint is, then. The movie presents a crime lord with a lightsaber, implying he's a bigger bad for a later movie. How is that ANY different than, say, the Mandalorian season 1 finale? (other than movie=/=TV season, and the technicality of imperial reminant warlord vs crime lord.)

The Mandalorian is an ongoing but self-contained story. The season 1 finale foreshadows something that will be happening later in the story, but everything that happens in it is part of the same ongoing story.

Introducing Darth Maul into the end of Solo stops the story from being self-contained. If you have only seen this movie, you have no clue who he is and he comes out of nowhere. It requires you to know information from other Star Wars media to understand who he is. The most primary source is the movies. If you watch the Prequel Trilogy which come before Solo chronologically, the last time you see him, he's cut in half and falling down a bottomless pit. Any reasonable person would conclude he is dead (much like Palpatine at the end of Ep VI). You then have to look into secondary sources to understand how the hell he is still alive.

The difference is that with The Mandalorian, it tells you everything you need to know (but the story is unfinished and thus your information is incomplete). In Solo, it doesn't. It's bad writing.

[Rakaydos]

Maul is an established character in the films. Gideon is a new character in either film or television, and hints as to why he has certain possessions are dropped preceding the reveal. Those who are familiar get foreshadowing, regardless of the level of familiarity. Further, this mythical viewer who has decided to see Solo without seeing the prequels is almost certainly not representative of the bulk of the audience, just as the viewers who have followed all ancillary materials and were familiar with Maul surviving were not representative. The average Solo viewer knew Maul got chopped in half and dumped down a massive shaft, then was running a crime ring later. As already said, this is no different than seeing Dooku later on despite us seeing him get decapitated. Which I maintain is a far better analogy than the season 1 finale of The Mandalorian.

The Mandalorian is an ongoing but self-contained story. The season 1 finale foreshadows something that will be happening later in the story, but everything that happens in it is part of the same ongoing story.

Introducing Darth Maul into the end of Solo stops the story from being self-contained. If you have only seen this movie, you have no clue who he is and he comes out of nowhere. It requires you to know information from other Star Wars media to understand who he is. The most primary source is the movies. If you watch the Prequel Trilogy which come before Solo chronologically, the last time you see him, he's cut in half and falling down a bottomless pit. Any reasonable person would conclude he is dead (much like Palpatine at the end of Ep VI). You then have to look into secondary sources to understand how the hell he is still alive.

The difference is that with The Mandalorian, it tells you everything you need to know (but the story is unfinished and thus your information is incomplete). In Solo, it doesn't. It's bad writing.

Both of you are CONTINUING to approach Maul from a perspective that Disney does not consider valid.

As far as Disney is concerned, Either the film stands alone with a character being introduced as fodder for future films, -OR- it stands valid with the entirety of Disney's continuity, which includes George Lucas resurrecting Maul in Clone Wars. Needing to watch a TV show (or a movie, Disney doesn't care) just means you should hurry up and get that Disney+ subscription.

[TheSummoner]

Disney can consider it whatever they want, it's still bad writing.

[Mightymosy]

I dislike Maul (and Palpatine) surviving, but I don't think that's Solo's fault, if he had been resurrected in other films.
For the record I thought he was dead, so it bothered me, but not too much.
He isn't really important in the movie anyway. It is ONLY important to show that Quira is working for somebody she cant simply say No to.
So we, the audience, are kept wondering how much of her betraying is her will and how much is enforced on her.

I understand that Solo may not give a lot of people what they want from a Star Wars movie.

But I stand by saying it is the best origin story type movie I have ever seen in any series.

The author looked at Han (especially his relation to Leia and women in general) and asked himself "How did Han become this character we see in Star Wars?". And for me, hobby psychologist ( :-)) it worked perfectly.

[Rakaydos]

Disney can consider it whatever they want, it's still bad writing.

Explain how it is bad writing, using only the events of Solo? No referring to any other media.

[Peelee]

Both of you are CONTINUING to approach Maul from a perspective that Disney does not consider valid.

How so? You said that earlier by applying it to Canon, but I never once said anything about it not being Canon, and now you have stripped away even that fig leaf. My complaint, as stated earlier, is "needing non-film exposition to understand the films is bad filmmaking in a franchise where the films are the general public's largest exposure to it."

Is it your contention that Disney does not consider good filmmaking valid?

[Dienekes]

I was really looking forward to this one because I wanted to see just how much commentary you would have had before the opening crawl finished.

Actually this is a point. Saph, if I post the Opening Crawl of Rise of Skywalker, would you give a reaction to that? Because honestly, I groaned reading it.

[Rakaydos]

How so? You said that earlier by applying it to Canon, but I never once said anything about it not being Canon, and now you have stripped away even that fig leaf. My complaint, as stated earlier, is "needing non-film exposition to understand the films is bad filmmaking in a franchise where the films are the general public's largest exposure to it."

Is it your contention that Disney does not consider good filmmaking valid?

I have bolded the part of your complaint that Disney does not consider valid. There -is- canon exposition to explain canon, in the case of Maul, but Disney doesn't need to remake the Dathomir arc of Clone wars as a feature length film before they use the fallout of that arc on film. "Film canon" as a separate category is dead. If you want to know who that alien crime lord is, everything you need to know is on Disney+ or on Kindle.

[Saph]

The author looked at Han (especially his relation to Leia and women in general) and asked himself "How did Han become this character we see in Star Wars?". And for me, hobby psychologist ( :-)) it worked perfectly.

How though? Han spends the first half of the movie trying to find/save Qi'ra, then he spends the second half of the movie trying to do a job with Qi'ra (in the hope of getting back together with her). Then when she ditches him, he hands all his money over to another woman instead.

Basically, he's a selfless white knight. It doesn't make sense as a scoundrel origin story at all.

Actually this is a point. Saph, if I post the Opening Crawl of Rise of Skywalker, would you give a reaction to that? Because honestly, I groaned reading it.

You know what, sure. At least that way I don't have to watch it.

[Dienekes]

Explain how it is bad writing, using only the events of Solo? No referring to any other media.

That's easy, the image itself is presented as a wow moment. But the entirety of it depends on knowledge of other media to be effective. Honestly, Maul is just a goofy looking guy, who stands up and turns on some kind of light weapon. The light weapon itself is inherently meaningless without the context of other Star Wars movies because lightsabers aren't in Solo. In fact it's impossible to even know it's a weapon. It's just a guy waving a glowstick around.

There is no emotional to weight to it. And unlike the last episode of Mando it doesn't take steps to then show how dangerous and deadly this new character is (which I'd argue the last episode of Mando didn't actually do well either, but they at least put forth an effort). In fact because we get not-Daenerys lying to him his threat is automatically diminished.

Really without further context the whole scene comes across as a bad cliffhanger. Like something you'd see from the middle episodes of Lost. The secret door opens and the reveal is... it's just some guy. Who cares?

The Maul reveal only has emotional impact at all because of added context. And when the movie itself does not promote that this additional context is required viewing, that's a failure in writing.

Honestly the best example I can think of is in that new show The Outsiders by Stephen King. A character is added in about three episodes in from a different Stephen King work, but the show itself makes no attempt to tell the viewers that you need to read this, this, and that to understand what's going on and why that's important. Instead it introduces the character in such a way that the audience knows why her coming on to the case is so cool and why this character is going to be important and fun to watch in the future. And she's actually doing something so it's not just empty description. Maul does none of that.

Edit: the Title Crawl for Saph

Spoiler

Show

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away...

STAR WARS

The Rise of Skywalker

The dead speak! The galaxy has heard a mysterious broadcast, a threat of REVENGE in the sinister voice of the late EMPEROR PALPATINE.

GENERAL LEIA ORGANA dispatches secret agents to gather intelligence, while REY, the last hope of the Jedi trains for battle against the diabolical FIRST ORDER.

Meanwhile, Supreme Leader KYLO REN rages in search of the phantom Emperor, determined to destroy any threat to his power...

[/spoiler]

[Mightymosy]

How though? Han spends the first half of the movie trying to find/save Qi'ra, then he spends the second half of the movie trying to do a job with Qi'ra (in the hope of getting back together with her). Then when she ditches him, he hands all his money over to another woman instead.

Basically, he's a selfless white knight. It doesn't make sense as a scoundrel origin story at all.



You know what, sure. At least that way I don't have to watch it.

I wrote a whole page about that after I watched the movie, because I liked it so much. I see if I can dig it up and post it as my answer :-D

[Peelee]

I have bolded the part of your complaint that Disney does not consider valid. There -is- canon exposition to explain canon, in the case of Maul, but Disney doesn't need to remake the Dathomir arc of Clone wars as a feature length film before they use the fallout of that arc on film. "Film canon" as a separate category is dead.

Except I never said "film canon" as a separate category is alive. I've never argued on that. I've argued that needing information on Disney+ or Kindle is bad filmmaking.

If you want to know who that alien crime lord is, everything you need to know is on Disney+ or on Kindle.

The same was true before Disney bought Star Wars. Sure, they had "levels" of canon (which was stupid, IMO), but regardless, the Clone Wars was on TV or DVD, books and comics already had their own sections in bookstores, you could read e-book novellas from any internet-enabled computer, and so on and so on. There is no functional difference. If I gave Joe Citizen my entire Legends collection and never breathed one word of different levels of canon, they would never know. Everything you'd need to know is in the local bookstore or online.

It would have been bad filmmaking then. It's bad filmmaking now. Just because Disney took the (thankfully logical) step of getting rid of the canon levels doesn't change that its functionally the same premise of "this is answered in the visual dictionary and that's bad filmmaking." Functionally, it's a rose by any other name.

That's easy, the image itself is presented as a wow moment. But the entirety of it depends on knowledge of other media to be effective. Honestly, Maul is just a goofy looking guy, who stands up and turns on some kind of light weapon. The light weapon itself is inherently meaningless without the context of other Star Wars movies because lightsabers aren't in Solo. In fact it's impossible to even know it's a weapon. It's just a guy waving a glowstick around.

There is no emotional to weight to it. And unlike the last episode of Mando it doesn't take steps to then show how dangerous and deadly this new character is (which I'd argue the last episode of Mando didn't actually do well either, but they at least put forth an effort). In fact because we get not-Daenerys lying to him his threat is automatically diminished.

Really without further context the whole scene comes across as a bad cliffhanger. Like something you'd see from the middle episodes of Lost. The secret door opens and the reveal is... it's just some guy. Who cares?

The Maul reveal only has emotional impact at all because of added context. And when the movie itself does not promote that this additional context is required viewing, that's a failure in writing.

Honestly the best example I can think of is in that new show The Outsiders by Stephen King.

Id say the Eragon movie, where the Emperor (I think?) cuts his curtain and there's a dragon behind it. I never read the books, maybe it makes more sense and has more weight there.