The Great Star Wars Watchthrough

[GloatingSwine]

All this discussion of "levels of canon" is missing the true chilling fact.

Fortnite is now more canon than literally every Star Wars videogame ever made.

[Devonix]

Here's the thing about Maul. Throughout that entire episode Maul never lies once. He witholds information. But he never says anything actually false. For him to be lying about being there for years it would actually stand out because of how much counter to the rest of the episode his behavior is.

Characters in these stories, never lie about that kind of info. It's not what they're in the story for.

[Peelee]

Here's the thing about Maul. Throughout that entire episode Maul never lies once.

Unless he lied there, in the very beginning. Which we don't know yet.

[dancrilis]

All this discussion of "levels of canon" is missing the true chilling fact.

Fortnite is now more canon than literally every Star Wars videogame ever made.

Actually Star Wars always took place '"A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away" .. the implication is that it is in our universe, and as such it is not unreasonable to assume that Palpatine survived a long time and traveled to a galaxy far far away to deliver the message ... or that he stayed where he was and force illusioned it.

[Devonix]

Unless he lied there, in the very beginning. Which we don't know yet.

Which would make it the only lie of the episode. And if the only thing a character lies about, is how long he was there, what narrative purpose does that serve. The whole episode he's portrayed as someone witholding things. spinning a web with just the right amount of information. An actual lie would be poor storytellng. Especially a lie like that.

Maul in this story is supposed to be someone we believe, but not trust.

Remember all information given is for the audience. first and foremost.

[Peelee]

Which would make it the only lie of the episode.

Obi-Wan told the truth in Star Wars. Until The Empire Strikes Back, when they decided he lied about who Luke's father was. And then further and further until at this point it's a damn miracle if he managed to say anything in the first movie that wasn't either an outright lie or misleading as hell. There's certainly a boatload of precedent for Star Wars to retroactively decide a character was lying.

[Devonix]

Obi-Wan told the truth in Star Wars. Until The Empire Strikes Back, when they decided he lied about who Luke's father was. And then further and further until at this point it's a damn miracle if he managed to say anything in the first movie that wasn't either an outright lie or misleading as hell. There's certainly a boatload of precedent for Star Wars to retroactively decide a character was lying.

Oh of course. But that's what I'm saying. Them putting all of this stuff there would be turning maul into a liar. It was one of the few parts of Rebels I liked and would prefer not retconning it.

[Kornaki]

Actually Star Wars always took place '"A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away" .. the implication is that it is in our universe, and as such it is not unreasonable to assume that Palpatine survived a long time and traveled to a galaxy far far away to deliver the message ... or that he stayed where he was and force illusioned it.

This actually jives with palpatine being the Sith God of Trolls. Eventually he got bored with his Galaxy and came to ours, where he torments the populace with divisive and poorly plotted Star wars movies. Ironically the whole thing is his true story, but you know what they say about the truth being stranger than fiction...

Episode 10 will be the story of palpy making 7-9. With new holographic technology everyone will see themselves as the movie audience raging at how the movies retconned each other.

[Saph]

Since everyone seems to be focused on it, when I was watching the movie, I wasn't hugely bothered by the Darth Maul thing. It was weird, but not a big put-off. Having resurrections does tend to harm a franchise in the long run (it cheapens the impact of character death) but short term, I pretty much shrugged.

The much bigger problem with the ending of Solo is Han giving away his 60 million credit fortune to the random girl who was trying to kill him just a little while ago. It pretty much wrecks the whole story arc – if this is supposed to be the backstory of how Han became a self-serving smuggler, where he's devoted to Qi'ra and she sort-of betrays him so he becomes jaded and cynical, then why does he immediately do the equivalent of giving all his money away to charity?

[keybounce]

I know, it would have been nice, but let's face it, it's Star Wars. Short of spending the last two years hiding under a rock with no internet connection, there was no way I was going to avoid getting spoiled somehow, so going in totally blind wasn't really going to happen.

Try harder. I've managed to avoid all of Rogue One, Solo, 7-9, and ... is there anything else?

On the other hand, I'm overdue for my blind review of Rogue One and it's comparison to Butch Cassian and the Sundance Droid. I do plan to get it out before campaign 7 starts.

EDIT: Oh wow. Somehow I thought this this thread was only 2 pages. Not 20. Sheesh, sorry.

Yup. Attack of the Clones. One of the worst romances ever written with two of the most boring protagonists. In a dumpster fire if a movie.

The best interpretation/saving grace I've seen for this is the idea that Padme, Obiwan, etc --- are all aware of the danger that Anakin is starting to present, and Padme is basically chosen to "take one for the team" to try to keep Anakin under control. (She fails.)

I mean, seriously, is there any other good explanation for what would otherwise be a rather creepy relationship, given their age difference and political/social status?

It also explains away all of the strange dialogue. Fine, Anakin doesn't know how to complement someone, but she just plays along with it because she needs to keep this "might become the destroyer of worlds" under guard/control/etc.

In general, the Prequel Trilogy looks a lot better once you start looking at the technical construction of the movies against the Ring Cycle structure. Lucas was far more skilled at technical story construction than plotline and dialogue construction.

Bringing a star cruiser out of orbit, losing half of it on re-entry, and landing it in the middle of a city is such a hilarious opening. It feels like the kind of thing a tabletop RPG party would do, right down to the dialogue. “Not to worry, we’re still flying half a ship.”

You have seen/read Darths and Droids, haven't you?

[Mightymosy]

Romances have been going with much more cringy dialogue in Real Life, so I really don't get why the movie gets dissed so much for it.

Remember that Anakin is basically inexperienced virgin. Per protocol, even, since Jedi forbid him to have meaningful relationships.

Amidala we don't really know - but I can easily imagine the Queen never had the opportunity to live without the constraints of political life and the court. So maybe she never got the chance to flirt as well?

The age and power difference is awkward in our view, yes.
Nothing awkward in the grand scheme of things, though.
Happened before. Probably even happens right now, somewhere.
Remember, this is a story verse where they think NOT rescuing Shmi to bring along with her son is OK.
Other culture, other standards.
Again, don't get why the movie gets dissed so much for this.

[Aeson]

The best interpretation/saving grace I've seen for this is the idea that Padme, Obiwan, etc --- are all aware of the danger that Anakin is starting to present, and Padme is basically chosen to "take one for the team" to try to keep Anakin under control. (She fails.)

I mean, seriously, is there any other good explanation for what would otherwise be a rather creepy relationship, given their age difference and political/social status?

There's always the Mind Trick theory that basically says that Anakin's a Jedi rapist.

Also, as to the age difference, it's canonically only about five years (yes, the apparently-elected Queen of Naboo is canonically only fourteen years old in The Phantom Menace; no, I don't think it makes much sense, either, even with the old EU explanation that Palpatine manipulated the election to put someone he expected to be easily manipulated onto the throne). That's not really a big enough age difference to be very problematic by Attack of the Clones, when he's nineteen and she's twenty-four, even if it is perhaps a bit weird by modern Western standards.

[DataNinja]

Again, don't get why the movie gets dissed so much for this.

Probably because it's not that fun to sit through and watch. And I say that as someone who actually has a fair amount of fondness for the prequels.

A lot of things can be excused if they're entertaining. It's why a lot of people go to movies. People don't exactly go to Star Wars for awkward romance scenes - we can get enough of that in real life.

[Saph]

Probably because it's not that fun to sit through and watch. And I say that as someone who actually has a fair amount of fondness for the prequels.

Basically this. The problem with the Anakin/Padme romance isn't really the age difference or the cultural standards, it's that it's so painful to sit through. I don't know anyone who actually enjoys watching their romance scenes. Even I don't, and I liked Episodes II and III!

Oh, and yes, I read Darths and Droids (though I thought it started great but got steadily less interesting as it went on)

[Yora]

The last time I was watching episode 2, I skipped ahead of scenes that I really didn't care to watch again. At the end, I had skipped pretty much the whole thing. The speeder chase, the asteroid field, and the clone factory are somewhat cool, but that's basically it.

But it doesn't have as many poop jokes as Episode 1, which is a plus, I guess.

[Daimbert]

Again, don't get why the movie gets dissed so much for this.

This falls into the "Reality is unrealistic" trope. Movies generally have much more polished dialogue than you'd see in real life. For example, you don't usually get a lot of ums in movies, when they are much more common in real life. So when we see stilted and crappy dialogue, it clashes with the sort of dialogue we've come to expect from a movie and makes us think that the writer is writing bad dialogue. Thus, if movies want us to think that the dialogue is bad on purpose -- these are awkward teens, for example -- they usually lampshade that in some way to let us know that we're supposed to be taking this as a sign of that rather than as bad dialogue. AotC doesn't do that, so we're left thinking that the dialogue is just crap, and seeing comments about it being realistic as attempts to deflect from that.

[Fyraltari]

These movie never try to be realistic at any point. Claiming that the romance dialog being bad is intentional because that’s realistic for these characters* is just making excuses.

Besides there are ways to make intentional bad dialog enjoyable. That’s not what we see here.

*and even though there entire romance isn’t.

[Peelee]

Romances have been going with much more cringy dialogue in Real Life, so I really don't get why the movie gets dissed so much for it.

Because they don't make movies out of that.

Court cases, even high-profile ones, are super boring in real life. Law & Order isn't. Because if it was, nobody would watch it, because we don't want real legal drama, we want entertaining legal drama.

I don't want my cringy romance dialogue. I want entertaining romance dialogue.

[truemane]

Because they don't make movies out of that.

Court cases, even high-profile ones, are super boring in real life. Law & Order isn't. Because if it was, nobody would watch it, because we don't want real legal drama, we want entertaining legal drama.

I don't want my cringy romance dialogue. I want entertaining romance dialogue.

I'd even settle for dialogue that just makes sense within the bounds of the accepted fiction. It drives me nuts how, the whole movie, Anakin does nothing but complain and criticize Padme's life's work and then she's suddenly all "I LOVE YOU ANI!"

Very eye roll.

So groan.

Episode 2 is ROUGH.

Side note: last time I watched the films, I did them in Machete Order. It works well. And the length and detail of this bog post fills my stuffy academic's heart with joy.

[Sapphire Guard]

It's the romance that these characters would have. It's not unrealistic or out of character or anything.

[Yora]

It still does not make it entertaining. And that's the only measure that matters.

[Peelee]

"Realistic" does not necessarily equate to "I enjoy watching this."

[dancrilis]

The best interpretation/saving grace I've seen for this is the idea that Padme, Obiwan, etc --- are all aware of the danger that Anakin is starting to present, and Padme is basically chosen to "take one for the team" to try to keep Anakin under control. (She fails.)

I have two explanations that I like better:
1) Padme is a creep, she grooms the young former slave from the moment she meets him into being her pet - with predictable bad for these kindof things.
- This is why she is ok with him killing a whole load of sand people - she enjoys the power she has over him and him being powerful is part of that.
- Why she doesn't balk at the dialogue - she wants to ensure that no other woman would have him and that everyone who meets him thinks he is a wierdo - so she trained him to talk like that.
- etc

alternative,
2) Palpatine has messed with Padme's mind to force her to groom Anakin (per the above) knowing that it will lead Anakin down a dark path which will forever dominate his destiny.

[Mightymosy]

I found the romance both entertaining and fun to watch, so there is that...
Don't know if this might be because the German translation was somehow better than the original, but I doubt it.

People complain about the sand line all the time, for example, and I just cannot figure out why, in either language, this was bad *shrug*

Re: Anankin criticising Amidala and her falling in love despite it.
Now THAT is something you see in movies AND in real life.
Sure, you could complain the movie wasn't original in using this well worn trope, but I don't know.



What really bothered me, on the other hand, is that they butchered Amidala's character for movie 2 and 3. No, serious, is that the QUEEN you saw in movie 1?!?
The role she plays in the romance is ooookay. Not stellar writing, but passing grade. Barely. But the NON-ROLE she is not playing in the entire rest of the story is disappointing to say the least.

[Seppl]

I found the romance both entertaining and fun to watch, so there is that...
Don't know if this might be because the German translation was somehow better than the original, but I doubt it.

The worse the original, the better the chance for the translation to shine. When the movie came out and I watched the dubbed version in German cinema I thought the script and actors were quite ok. I could not understand all the hate on the internet. But then I watched the original version and, oh boy, was that one a cringe. Wooden acting with bad dialogue all the way. For the German translation they invested some effort and money on a good script and good voice actors because Star Wars is a big name. And it really shows. It might be the only movie that I know where the German dub is actually better than the original.

[Caledonian]

With a bad movie, the dubbers could feel free to improve things. With even a moderately good movie, they must feel compelled to try to convey the original, with the inevitable result of creating a somewhat awkward translation.

It's rough translating things, because poetry doesn't translate - you must either try to create your own poetry that brings to mind what the original was like, which is quite difficult, or give people the equivalent of looking at the back of a tapestry - a literal translation that probably doesn't convey the skill of the original.

Unless the original is awful, in which case anything you do is an improvement.

[Dienekes]

I found the romance both entertaining and fun to watch, so there is that...
Don't know if this might be because the German translation was somehow better than the original, but I doubt it.

People complain about the sand line all the time, for example, and I just cannot figure out why, in either language, this was bad *shrug*

Well I didn’t. So I complain about it. Now if you like it, that’s fine. Hell I like The Last Jedi, it should be clear my tastes are not the same as everyone else.

But for what it’s worth. I don’t think movies get romance, or understand it all that well. They keep portraying it as big sappy speeches and forced laughter. One pursuer and one pursues. When as far as I have seen that is only true for teenagers. Which, fine Anakin is supposed to be. But we don’t ever confuse that nonsense for actual romance. That’s lust and hormones.

Romance is comfort and aiding each other. Which only happens during the last fight scene. Before that they’re all the worst parts of a teen romcom with actors who I think realized how bad the lines were because I did not feel like I was watching a blooming romance when I saw the two of them woodenly staring at each other and being forced to frolic in a field. It was painful to watch.

[Rakaydos]

Concerning Queen amidala at age 14, my head canon is that it isn't actually any kind of actual nobility. Nabuu has always been this bastion of civility and culture, I see it as a possibility that if children get good grades on their political science classes, they can enter an election for "Queen for a year", with actual political rights and responsibilities within the levers of government.

Being able to handle the naboo crisis so well, is what let young padmai get an -actual- government career as a senator, after her term was up.

[Saph]

The worse the original, the better the chance for the translation to shine. When the movie came out and I watched the dubbed version in German cinema I thought the script and actors were quite ok. I could not understand all the hate on the internet. But then I watched the original version and, oh boy, was that one a cringe. Wooden acting with bad dialogue all the way. For the German translation they invested some effort and money on a good script and good voice actors because Star Wars is a big name. And it really shows. It might be the only movie that I know where the German dub is actually better than the original.

This is kind of fascinating actually. I'm so used to bad or mediocre translations, hadn't occurred to me that when the native dialogue's so wooden and badly written a translation actually has a good chance of improving it!

[Mightymosy]

Well I didn’t. So I complain about it. Now if you like it, that’s fine. Hell I like The Last Jedi, it should be clear my tastes are not the same as everyone else.

But for what it’s worth. I don’t think movies get romance, or understand it all that well. They keep portraying it as big sappy speeches and forced laughter. One pursuer and one pursues. When as far as I have seen that is only true for teenagers. Which, fine Anakin is supposed to be. But we don’t ever confuse that nonsense for actual romance. That’s lust and hormones.

Romance is comfort and aiding each other. Which only happens during the last fight scene. Before that they’re all the worst parts of a teen romcom with actors who I think realized how bad the lines were because I did not feel like I was watching a blooming romance when I saw the two of them woodenly staring at each other and being forced to frolic in a field. It was painful to watch.

Well, I agree that romance SHOULD be like you said. Comfort and aiding.
But that's not all.
It IS also about LUST. And it SHOULD be, if you ask me.

All of these ALSO are subject to HORMONES, even the tendency to aid and comfort.
We ARE our biology, for better or worse, like it or not.


Also, I for once really liked the frolicking or whatever on the fields. I found it a very interesting change of pace, and one that made sense.
I actually would have liked if that part was more elaborated - yes, with better acting and better dialogue, but still.