Doctor Who: Just Be Kind, Fam

[Anonymouswizard]

Yeah but that's special by choice, not by birth. They're not inherently different from any other Time Lord (besides being the main character, obviously) just the only one* willing to travel and make a difference.

*Plus Romana, K'anpo Rimpoche and arguably the Monk.

I mean, that was my point. The Doctor didn't need a special origin to be special, they're special because of what they do. Even if you wanted to make them more special they work better if it's nothing major, but the Doctor is special because they're out there exploring the universe to see what's there and connect with people, which is why the War Doctor is a big deal, being what the Doctor is when they're forced to choose not to be an idiot with a box but instead to start taking the fight to their enemies.

The difference between the Doctor and Geoff the Time Lord is that the Doctor has at this point about thirteen lifetimes of doing around the universe doing stuff instead of lounging around on Galifrey.

It's of course much easier for Big Finish because they don't require the actors to look the same or still be physically fit.

True, but my original post was about following up the plot thread in the series, which does have such requirements. Whether or nto Susan has regnerated is pretty much irrelevant.

I have to concur that the twist would have been brilliant if it'd just been Susan that was the Timeless Child. That the granddaughter was, in fact, the godmother and the Doctor was, in fact, just a Time Lord who learned what Susan really was and broke every rule in the book, then wrote a few sequels to break ever rule in those as well, just to get her out of there and "safe". That everything the Doctor ever became was born out of the one time he couldn't turn his back on a child suffering, and that Hartnell was, in fact, the origin of the saying "Demons run when a good man goes to war." That the Doctor's lie to Susan that she was his granddaughter was one he stuck to so strongly that two thousand years later she doesn't even remember that it was a lie.

Missed by that much...

Honestly I'm currently stuck as to which plot twist I dislike more, this or the 'metacrisis Doctor'. But yes, this could have been an interesting plot thread if done with any other character, and Susan is pretty much the ideal candidate. But nope, can't have anybody more special than the main character.

[Xyril]

It's a continuity error sure, but as the appearance of the TARDIS didn't factor in the plot of either episodes it's not a plot hole.

It's probably a continuity error that they allowed for the sake of the reveal, but I could see some plausible explanations. The Master could, as always, be lying to mess with the Doctor's head, or put together the various fragments of evidence to reach the wrong conclusion, and the Doctor's mind-wiped service may in fact have occurred during her known life.

Personally, I like the idea that the affection for the Police Box is just a quirk that carried over unconsciously even after a memory wipe, and that the Doctor was using it so much that it's not surprise that the TARDIS was in that form when he broke the chameleon circuit.

As for the plot twist, I'm reserving judgment. I like your point that it was the Doctor's choice to care about the rest of the universe that made him one of the special Time Lords, but that doesn't have to be undermined by a special birth. If anything, having a background that feeds into the narrative of being an outsider adds an interesting dimension to the character. He's always been an outsider among humans, but the later series really emphasized that he's also an outsider among Time Lords--something that contrasted even the other Time Lords who spent all their time away from Gallifrey.

And to me, that wouldn't take away from the specialness of his choice to get involved. The Master is similarly an outsider, due to upbringing, not birth, but still due to circumstances beyond his control. Yet he made drastically different choices.

[Eldan]

But the Doctor having infinite lives just kind of... screws up the last few decades of Dr. Who history, really. I mean, it just means that every time the Doctor sacrificed a life to save someone (cough, Wilf, cough) is now meaningless.

[Xyril]

But the Doctor having infinite lives just kind of... screws up the last few decades of Dr. Who history, really. I mean, it just means that every time the Doctor sacrificed a life to save someone (cough, Wilf, cough) is now meaningless.

Except that it's not. First, intent matters, and the Doctor really thought that he was giving something up, so it was still a self-sacrificing act. Second, it's been well-established that the Doctor's regenerations aren't like Mario's pool of extra lives. Every time he/she regenerates, he keeps the same memories, as well as the same core of personality, but he's also not the same person exactly. At the very least, The Doctor sees things this way to the extent that he was so attached to his David Tenant incarnation that he basically called a mulligan on his first regeneration in that form.

Humans change personality comparatively slowly and subtly, and yet we sometimes look back at who we were at a different time in our lives and mourn not being that person anymore. For Time Lords, regeneration seems like some weird mix of randomness changes, unconscious wish-fulfillment, and an incarnation worth of character-development more drastically manifesting all at once. So to me, it makes sense that Nine, the form largely shaped by being the traumatized winner/survivor of the Time War, seemed okay with regenerating, while Ten--the regeneration that was largely shaped after he was "fixed" by his time with Rose--was so desperately holding on. He was (from his own perspective) the best version of himself that he's been in a long time, and he wasn't in a hurry to roll the dice again.

[Fyraltari]

I mean, that was my point. The Doctor didn't need a special origin to be special, they're special because of what they do. Even if you wanted to make them more special they work better if it's nothing major, but the Doctor is special because they're out there exploring the universe to see what's there and connect with people, which is why the War Doctor is a big deal, being what the Doctor is when they're forced to choose not to be an idiot with a box but instead to start taking the fight to their enemies.

Right carry on.

As for the plot twist, I'm reserving judgment. I like your point that it was the Doctor's choice to care about the rest of the universe that made him one of the special Time Lords, but that doesn't have to be undermined by a special birth. If anything, having a background that feeds into the narrative of being an outsider adds an interesting dimension to the character. He's always been an outsider among humans, but the later series really emphasized that he's also an outsider among Time Lords--something that contrasted even the other Time Lords who spent all their time away from Gallifrey.

I mean the Doctor being unusual for a Time Lord was been established as back season 6 and was an important part of all of his interactions with non renegade Time Lords. He was even tried for conduct unbecoming of a Time Lord once!

But, really my objection is that this episode implies that their birth is the reason the Doctor didn't fit in (the Master even says something along the lines of "Do you remember how you've always acted as if you were special? Turns out you are!") rather than it being a choice.

And to me, that wouldn't take away from the specialness of his choice to get involved. The Master is similarly an outsider, due to upbringing, not birth, but still due to circumstances beyond his control. Yet he made drastically different choices.

Are you talking about the drumbeat thing? Because that's another retcon I dislike. The doctor and the Master used to be the same but grew apart because the Doctor is selfless and brave while the Master is selfish and cowardly is a much better origin story than "Rassilon put a noise in my head my whole life".

But the Doctor having infinite lives just kind of... screws up the last few decades of Dr. Who history, really. I mean, it just means that every time the Doctor sacrificed a life to save someone (cough, Wilf, cough) is now meaningless.

How is it meaningless? Ten still died.

[Kitten Champion]

But the Doctor having infinite lives just kind of... screws up the last few decades of Dr. Who history, really. I mean, it just means that every time the Doctor sacrificed a life to save someone (cough, Wilf, cough) is now meaningless.

Eh, isn't the tragedy of Doctor's regenerations based on the fact that the personality/identity/ego/concept of self is effectively dead and replaced by essentially a new person with the same memories and basic character archetype.

I mean, I've sat through several of these "The Doctor is about to regenerate and it's tragic" episodes and none of the drama was premised on the expectation that he would actually die die. It's treated more as a meta-thing where the actor and his portrayal are now over.

[Fyraltari]

he wasn't in a hurry to roll the dice again.

Especially since because of Davies's bizarre decision Ten only lived six years making him by far the shortest lived (in-universe) Doctor.

[Xyril]

Right carry on.

I mean the Doctor being unusual for a Time Lord was been established as back season 6 and was an important part of all of his interactions with non renegade Time Lords. He was even tried for conduct unbecoming of a Time Lord once!

But, really my objection is that this episode implies that their birth is the reason the Doctor didn't fit in (the Master even says something along the lines of "Do you remember how you've always acted as if you were special? Turns out you are!") rather than it being a choice.

I guess that didn't bother me as much because it was partly the Master causing drama for its own sake--which makes me give a lot less weight to his analysis--and also because the "specialness" of his birth doesn't make sense. It's like the earlier Elder Scrolls games, where your character has a destiny because he was born under a certain sign... and a large part of why you're in a position to fulfill that destiny is that the Empire has been rounding up people born under that sign and trying to put them on a crash course to fulfill said destiny. Maybe the Doctor had some genetic predisposition or unconscious racial memory that gave him an inherently different nature, or maybe it was the Time Lords who knew his true origins unconsciously treating him differently... or maybe none of that is true, and it's coincidence that the Time Lord with the secret, special origin story happened to be one of the ones who felt like he belonged elsewhere.

Are you talking about the drumbeat thing? Because that's another retcon I dislike. The doctor and the Master used to be the same but grew apart because the Doctor is selfless and brave while the Master is selfish and cowardly is a much better origin story than "Rassilon put a noise in my head my whole life".

I am, but I felt the same way even before both of those events. Before they both had an outside reason imposed on them, they still started off the same--both kind of misfit outsiders who felt constrained by the authoritarian Time Lord society--and both found very different ways to deal with those feelings.

I guess part of the reason the retcons don't bother me so much is that I don't draw such a bright line between free will and determinism. Even without an obvious extrinsic reason, I never saw the Master and the Doctor as having consciously chosen to feel like they didn't fit in on Gallifrey. So many of these things are probably such a mix of randomness, genetics, quirks of brain chemistry, and upbringing that "I feel like I don't belong, probably because of this one defining event" doesn't give a character any more or less agency than "I feel like I don't belong. I've felt this way as long as I can remember, and I don't really know why."

I've always leaned towards "the Time Lords are giant tools" as the vague reason the Master and the Doctor went off to find themselves elsewhere, and all the two reveals have done for me was to give that reason some specific details. Regardless, the time Time Lords started in very similar situations, and pretty much began to diverge as soon as they started making conscious decisions to shape their own lives. To me, that powerful narrative hasn't been undermined by anything that's happened.

[Anonymouswizard]

Especially since because of Davies's bizarre decision Ten only lived six years making him by far the shortest lived (in-universe) Doctor.

Yeah, which is clearly why he was the most problems with rebirth. But it's jarring because he's sandwiched between Nine, who's clearly not thrilled but takes it incredibly well, and Eleven who seemed more upset about not regenerating (but was also one of by my count three Doctors to die of old age). Sure other Doctors lasted decades at minimum (I think most officially lived long enough to get their card from the Queen), but it's weird when previous Doctors took impending regenerations relatively well.

Honestly the only one who seems to treat regeneration similarly is Two, who's being forced into it as part of his punishment. Ten really should have got time skips between companions like the other Doctors did, bring him up to his mid twenties to early sixties, but I guess that would have ruined the 'the Doctor wuvs Rose' story arc.

Although we all know he was only interested in Rose because he thought the Master was dead...


On the 'Timeless Child' stuff, it's not quite clear if in the earlier canon the Doctor obviously wasn't a normal Time Lord (they might have been mentally unwell or the like, they certainly were after the Time War), but they weren't unique in leaving Galifrey to see the universe (or protect Susan, if we're going with they angle). For most of the series they've been their species equivalent of somebody who decides they want to travel to every country in the world, and then spends their life just traveling from one country to another doing what they can to make ends meet.

But the Doctor didn't become the Time Lord more feared than Rassilon by being the Timeless Child, they did it by spending eight lifetimes seeing the universe and then spending centuries fighting in the Time War without weapons and without regenerating, and winning. The Doctor was already thirteen and a bit lifetimes of knowledge and experience, an equal with the Master and Rassilon.

Which they did after barely becoming a Time Lord in the first place. The reveal changes the Doctor from the person who had attained greatness among his people despite her relatively humble beginnings to somebody who's great because they're the mythical one who has been around since the beginning. They have an equivalent of a Third in their degree and no political position anymore, and yet they are considered worth following over the President and founder of the culture.

It's impressive for some nobody with a vehicle and a tool. It's not for somebody who was there since the dawn of the Time Lords and hasn't had Rassilon's period of dormancy.

Which is why some of us really don't like it, from a Galifrean perspective the Doctor had gone from being a nobody to being their worst nightmare. Which is lessened if they were already that nightmare before they ran away.

[Arutema]

I don't think it'd been posted here yet, but Humble Bundle is offering a bundle of the Titan Comics ad Big Finish audio dramas to benefit Children in Need.

[Aotrs Commander]

I watched the last two episodes last night with Mum.

On the one hand, those were really good episodes of Doctor Who. Cybermen are cool, the Master was GREAT (I'm sorry, I just really like the giggling insane master much much more; the gentleman whose name I rally ought to look up at some point is very nearly on Simm!Master level. Plus I like the idea that, having exceeded his natural regeneration cycle and been killed, like, several times, the Master may have become A Little Bit Unhinged over the years since his early days).

The fact we had a big plot this season was great, after I said that was really all that was missing last season (Doctor Who's filler episodes have never done much for me, and I only started watching every episode in Moffat's era).



On the t'other, while I enjoyed the episodes, the lore change is... Eeeeeh. I can imagine that it will upset A LOT of the long-term fans who may have up to 50 years invested in the franchise, and it only heightens the problems of making the Doctor TOO special. (Not too mention this time we're not only throwing the Time Lords under a bus, but now the Doctor isn't even one anymore, really.) Yes, it sidesteps the need to be concerned about how many Doctors there are for future, but a) we had, like, another ten Doctors before that would become a problem again and b) it removes some of the tension from when that would happen next time.

(As it was set up, with the Other Doctor, it's made it more difficult to be retconned however many years down the line; because if comics have taught us anything, it is that you have to be bloody careful when you do crap like this, as it can make you a) very unpopular and b) likely to have it overwritten when someone else who didn't like the idea takes over in a few years or decades down the line. I mean, it's like saying "well Superman isn't actually from Krypton, they just found him and sent him on." Kind of a big deal, but almost certainly someone will come along later and retcon it BACK, so they can have "their" Superman back.

Y'know, like how the Doctor is half-human on his mother's side.)

I'm not up in arms about it and it will give us some places to go, but I'm not convinced it was a great idea long-term (though a cynical sort might say given how much Stuff I Like has become something I don't care for anymore, that I'll just take something livable with).



Also, on the Doctor originally being notawhiteman (I'll confess, I wouldn't even have registered that if it hadn't been mentioned on-thread)... I mean, by the show's own metric now, there is ABSOLUTELY no garentee that what whatsherface found was even the first incarnation ANYWAY. Whoever was beyond that portal could have been doing exactly the same as the Time Lords did to notyettheDoctor and just dumped a memory-wiped, youthed version out through the portal or whatever. By this very revalation ITSELF, the show has made certain that we can't take anything at face value. (Hell, the Doctor might STILL be half-human on her mother's side, because we still have no idea what the parents were. Actually, the Doctor being the progeny of a human and a, I dunno, God of Time might make MORE sense now...!)



Guess on the other hand, Valeyard is still on the table...!

[Fyraltari]

the gentleman whose name I rally ought to look up at some point is very nearly on Simm!Master level.

Sacha Dhawan. It's hardly surprising given that is direction seems to be "emulate Simm".

Plus I like the idea that, having exceeded his natural regeneration cycle and been killed, like, several times, the Master may have become A Little Bit Unhinged over the years since his early days).

Just a reminder that the second appearance of the Master was this.

Spoiler: The Master at the end of their thirteenth incarnation, circa the Deadly Assassin

Show

And that was before they started wearing people's corpses.
Since the Master calmed down significantly between The End of Time (where most of his unstability was due to the fact that he was rapidly dying, he is much more composed in his other two appearances) and the last time we saw Miss, I'd like an explanation fro the Dhawan Master. I mean I'm glad you like the character but I'm bothered that
a) They're back so soon. The show should have waited a handful of years before making the Master a big thing again. don't overexpose the character.
b) They're retreading old ground. Missy had an arc. The Master was taken to new directions! Where do you go from there? Back to square one, I suppose.

Yes, it sidesteps the need to be concerned about how many Doctors there are for future

Which wasn't needed as both Twelve and Rassilon stated they didn't know how many regenerations the Doctor was given and that they may keep regenerating over and over again.

Guess on the other hand, Valeyard is still on the table...!

If they ever get around to it.

[Aotrs Commander]

b) They're retreading old ground. Missy had an arc. The Master was taken to new directions! Where do you go from there? Back to square one, I suppose.

I wasn't struck by Missy at the best of times, though and I very much disliked her "redemption" arc. (Not hugely a fan of them in general, especially in regards to the amount we seem to see these days generally, and almost always because a villain character is popular, so they have to be made "good." See also Spike, the reason why the Galactic Empire can't have nice things, Loki, Discord, every bad guy in Naruto except three (fortunately, The Best One was one of them)... I'm bored of them now.)

So it being basically ignored is a win, as far as I'm concerned. I don't want to see a redeemed Master anymore than I want to see a redeemed Davros (which I was very concerned about most of that episode, until suddenly, everything was alright and indeed hilarious).

[theangelJean]

Just found this thread again. Given the unpopularity here of the most recent series, I assume nobody else is following the short stories currently being posted on the BBC website?

[The Troubadour]

I liked Davies' quite a bit, the one which shows Eight (or "Eight") regenerating into Nine! I have yet to read Moffat's, though. Honestly, aside from episodes like the Doctor Dances duology and Don't Blink - which, to be fair, are great episodes -, I'm very much not fond of Moffat's writing.

Have there been any other stories?

[Anonymouswizard]

Just found this thread again. Given the unpopularity here of the most recent series, I assume nobody else is following the short stories currently being posted on the BBC website?

No, I'm watching the entire series from the very beginning, and it was much, better? Like, the first revival series is incredibly good, and I have fond memories of Matt Smith, but it feels to me like the writers of the earlier eras of the show had a much better idea of how to keep their stories grounded. Some Hartnell episodes have been gems just for the strong writing and acting on display (while other serials feature much weaker writing). The Daleks itself was a joy to rewatch, the last time I'd seen the story had been in the inferior film version, and while the serial has some problems it's one of the strongest stories the show has ever done (even if the Daleks are weird).

Like, there's serious problems, but those are much more excusable when you're working from nothing, and the longer average story length (a tad under 2 hours instead of a bit under an hour) serves the build.

I liked Davies' quite a bit, the one which shows Eight (or "Eight") regenerating into Nine! I have yet to read Moffat's, though. Honestly, aside from episodes like the Doctor Dances duology and Don't Blink - which, to be fair, are great episodes -, I'm very much not fond of Moffat's writing.

Have there been any other stories?

I'mgetting confused, with the regeneration are we talking about a canon scene or is there a new story? I'd be interested in that, as much as I enjoy John Hurt's performance I really do think they should have written Eight as the war Doctor, it would have given the episode a much stronger link to the old series.

Okay, went away annd read it, I actually think it's a much better version of the end of the Time War than Day of the Doctor was. I really, really like it.

It does remind me of the time I tried to calculate the Doctor's actual age from the timespans we know. So we know that the Seventh Doctor's stories were roughly around his 950s, that War identified as 800, and that Eleven spent four hundred years pre-DotD and about nine hundred on Trenzalore. Assuming that Seven, Eight, and Twelve all lived for a good fifty years (which seems to be how long about half the incarnations last) then we get to the Doctor being about 3200 when they regenerate into Thirteen (ignoring the Timeless Child twist because of my personal loathing for it). If we instead assume one's lifespan represents the average time it takes a Time Lord to have to regenerate from hold age we cut that down bu about one thousand, because War loses 300 years and Eleven 800.


Stupid idea, what if the Timeless Child isn't the Doctor, but the Time Lord we already knew had unlimited regenerations? I keep thinking about this and keep coming back to 'Rassilon makes far more sense than The Doctor'.

[Fyraltari]

Concerning the Doctor’s age (and ignoring the Timeless child) I think it’s best to accept that the Doctor started counting back from 0 after regenerating into Eight to explain how 9 claims to be younger than Seven said he was. So Seven was around a thousand or so when he died and Twelve claimed to be two thousand (‘old enough to be your messiah’) which is consistent with the figures going up since the beginning of the modern show. This would bring her to around 3, 000 years old and more. But I think the only real important thing is ‘absurdly old’.

[Anonymouswizard]

Concerning the Doctor’s age (and ignoring the Timeless child) I think it’s best to accept that the Doctor started counting back from 0 after regenerating into Eight to explain how 9 claims to be younger than Seven said he was. So Seven was around a thousand or so when he died and Twelve claimed to be two thousand (‘old enough to be your messiah’) which is consistent with the figures going up since the beginning of the modern show. This would bring her to around 3, 000 years old and more. But I think the only real important thing is ‘absurdly old’.

Honestly restarting at 8 makes a lot more sense, that makes Eleven the oddity, Eight can easily have three hundred years while War takes five hundred, which is roughly in line with One regenerating at 450. However Eleven now lives over twice as long as any other incarnation, even the other two who died of old age, which 'there wasn't any regeneration energy to kick in and revitalise him' only goes so far towards explaining.

I mean, I get that the Doctor's exact age beyond 'has over a thousand cards from the Queen' isn't important, but the unexplained change in how long Time Lords can live before regenerating annoys me.

[Fyraltari]

Honestly restarting at 8 makes a lot more sense, that makes Eleven the oddity, Eight can easily have three hundred years while War takes five hundred, which is roughly in line with One regenerating at 450. However Eleven now lives over twice as long as any other incarnation, even the other two who died of old age, which 'there wasn't any regeneration energy to kick in and revitalise him' only goes so far towards explaining.

I mean, I get that the Doctor's exact age beyond 'has over a thousand cards from the Queen' isn't important, but the unexplained change in how long Time Lords can live before regenerating annoys me.

It helps that Eleven started physically younger than most incarnation, and that in his second-to-last episode, One is shoved into a life-draining machine.

It’s also possible that how long the previous incarnation(s) lasted has an influence on a given incarnation’s lifespan. T’en lived for only six years, (even less if you count from the meta-crisis regeneration) so maybe the Doctor has some extra juice to spare this time?

[Friv]

Regarding the Master - until I am given proof otherwise, I'm going to assume that this Master actually slots in between the Simms and Missy incarnations, and might even be the reason that Missy went for Cybermen as her present to the Doctor. It fits their respective arcs better for this one to be the one that starts at "the Doctor tried to save me and I hate them for it," especially with the desire for everything to end.

Regarding the Timeless Child - it is pretty dumb, but it's far from the dumbest thing that's happened on Doctor Who and it will probably wind up being retconned later. Also - just because the Child was formerely infinitely regenerating doesn't actually mean they still are. Limited regenerations was previously canonically established as an artificial limit put in place by the Time Lords; there's no reason they couldn't have put it on the original, too.

[Anonymouswizard]

It helps that Eleven started physically younger than most incarnation, and that in his second-to-last episode, One is shoved into a life-draining machine.

It’s also possible that how long the previous incarnation(s) lasted has an influence on a given incarnation’s lifespan. T’en lived for only six years, (even less if you count from the meta-crisis regeneration) so maybe the Doctor has some extra juice to spare this time?

To be fair the Doctor's Twelfth incarnation technically lasted what, a day? Also I hate the Metacrisis Doctor, and I will mention it every time that trick comes up in conversation.

But yeah, if we go that route, the previous version technically lasted about a day. That must be a lot of extra lifespan energy.

Also spoilers, it'll be months before I'm at season 4! (Essential worker, I don't have time to binge.)

Regarding the Master - until I am given proof otherwise, I'm going to assume that this Master actually slots in between the Simms and Missy incarnations, and might even be the reason that Missy went for Cybermen as her present to the Doctor. It fits their respective arcs better for this one to be the one that starts at "the Doctor tried to save me and I hate them for it," especially with the desire for everything to end.

Alternative theory: the new one is pre-Simms post-Roberts.

I might have just watched the first half of the movie (and I'll watch the second half after work tomorrow). It's bad, but honestly McGann might be my new favourite Doctor, he just nails the time travelling alien but and his Doctor has so much energy.

Regarding the Timeless Child - it is pretty dumb, but it's far from the dumbest thing that's happened on Doctor Who and it will probably wind up being retconned later. Also - just because the Child was formerely infinitely regenerating doesn't actually mean they still are. Limited regenerations was previously canonically established as an artificial limit put in place by the Time Lords; there's no reason they couldn't have put it on the original, too.

Honestly I suspect we'll see it retconned out moved to a different character around the time the next showrunner wants a reset to 'renegade Time Lord with a box and a screwdriver'.


I also really want to run an Eight-era campaign, maybe with the players as a group of Time Lords in a TARDIS caught in the opening acts of the Last Time War.

[Thufir]

Just found this thread again. Given the unpopularity here of the most recent series, I assume nobody else is following the short stories currently being posted on the BBC website?

I've been keeping up with everything I've seen linked on twitter (also people have been doing big rewatches/livetweets of certain episodes, which have been fun to follow, especially when writers and cast join in). I like them.

Regarding the Master - until I am given proof otherwise, I'm going to assume that this Master actually slots in between the Simms and Missy incarnations, and might even be the reason that Missy went for Cybermen as her present to the Doctor. It fits their respective arcs better for this one to be the one that starts at "the Doctor tried to save me and I hate them for it," especially with the desire for everything to end.

I've seen that idea thrown around on twitter as well, though I think there are bits of how they've talked about him in interviews which at least imply him being post-Missy. It'd also sit weirdly with Missy talking about Gallifrey having returned after the Time War.
As far as the cybermen go, I feel like World Enough And Time/The Doctor Falls already explained that, since it appears that Simm's Master had some involvement in the creation of the original Mondassian Cybermen? Though that brings me to something else I've seen said on twitter which I agree with - it'd be nice at some point to have another Cyberman story that's not also a Master story.

[Androgeus]

Honestly I suspect we'll see it retconned out moved to a different character around the time the next showrunner wants a reset to 'renegade Time Lord with a box and a screwdriver'.

Honestly I think it'll just go the way of the The Doctor being half-human, that is it'll ignored or brought up only as a bit of joke. I just don't see any reason to spend narrative effort fixing things that can just easily be ignored.

[Devonix]

Honestly I think it'll just go the way of the The Doctor being half-human, that is it'll ignored or brought up only as a bit of joke. I just don't see any reason to spend narrative effort fixing things that can just easily be ignored.

Exactly this. It's doctor Who. Canon has always been a fluid thing. If you don't like a development don't worry, it'll be removed later on and replaced with something else you can hate on.

[Fyraltari]

Yop.
Do y’all remember when Romana regenerated half a dozen times in as many minutes and it wasn’t a big deal?

I am more miffed about them razing Gallifrey again. You don’t want to play with it fine, but why do you need to set the toys’ box on fire?

[Devonix]

Yop.
Do y’all remember when Romana regenerated half a dozen times in as many minutes and it wasn’t a big deal?

I am more miffed about them razing Gallifrey again. You don’t want to play with it fine, but why do you need to set the toys’ box on fire?

Yeah. I don't need Galifrey to show up, but just knowing it's out there is nice. And the Regeneration limit was always a soft rule. In the very first episode the limit is mentioned, they also mention that you can get more.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah. I don't need Galifrey to show up, but just knowing it's out there is nice. And the Regeneration limit was always a soft rule. In the very first episode the limit is mentioned, they also mention that you can get more.

Well it’s unclear wether the Master was trying to get more or just to heal/rejuvenate himself in that episode, if I’m not mistaken.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Yop.
Do y’all remember when Romana regenerated half a dozen times in as many minutes and it wasn’t a big deal?

Original series viewer here - I always thought that was because Romana was choosing her form rather than having it forced on her by impending death. What we usually see of the process is from the Doctor, and pretty much each time the doctor has regenerated it was because of trauma (I can thing of only two exceptions - Hartnell's doctor, who died of old age, and Troughton's doctor, whose regeneration was forced by the Time Lords - Interestingly on that occasion he was given the chance to choose his new form).

[Anonymouswizard]

Yeah. I don't need Galifrey to show up, but just knowing it's out there is nice. And the Regeneration limit was always a soft rule. In the very first episode the limit is mentioned, they also mention that you can get more.

It's okay to go back there once every couple of Doctors, but I wouldn't want it to become central. But I also believe it's destruction will stick even less than the Timeless Child thing, it's already come back from destruction once, and then weaseled it's way out of being stuck in a single moment.

Plus yes we've known since the classic series that Time Lords could get more regenerations (I think Presidents tended to get some extras?) and that thirteen lives was a social rule and not a biological one (Rassilon). And of course we know there's a way to take them from another forcibly thanks to the Master trying to take the Doctor's last five. I honestly thought that the new series had decided to quietly drop the limit as more of a cultural thing before Time of the Doctor.


And I now really want to run a game where the players are a group of Time Lords in a TARDIS who somehow managed to get blasted away from Galifrey before it's destruction, and have them pottering around the universe dealing with their home being gone and trying to keep a battle-damaged TARDIS functional.

[Fyraltari]

Plus yes we've known since the classic series that Time Lords could get more regenerations (I think Presidents tended to get some extras?)

Nope. There’s one techie who was utterly baffled by the notion that a Time Lord could get more lives in The Deadly Assassin.
Being granted new regenerations was presented as possible but extraordinary.

But even the concept of who among the Gallifreyan population can and can’t regenerate was (and still is) unclear, so...