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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    You mean the arrows?
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Something I hadn't realized initially (which I'm sure others had noticed): MITD apparently doesn't leave tracks in the snow when painting the doors

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconian View Post
    Something I hadn't realized initially (which I'm sure others had noticed): MITD apparently doesn't leave tracks in the snow when painting the doors
    It's been discussed in the MitD thread, yes. Jury's still out on whether it is a clue or not though.
    Fortunately this thread isn't called "Things no one noticed before". It would probably be much shorter if that was the case.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Julio is so focused on defense that he hasn't drawn blood - leading him to only do so when Tarquin starts to put his attention on Elan again.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by hroþila View Post
    Right, but what I'm saying is that with an odd number of Northern gods before Hel had a high priest, those ties mean abstaining is a possibility.
    I'm a bit late in responding (less than two months though), but do we know Dvalin ascended to demigodhood during this world? If not, it's possible there were more ties during Godsmoots in previous worlds, back when Hel had clerics.

    After writing the above out but before submitting it, I remembered that one of the high priests brings snacks because they were there for the previous tie. So even if Dvalin didn't ascend during this world, there has been at least one other tie during this world's tenure.

    Also, Rubyrock's explanation that the Council of Clans still exists, but is not the current Dwarven government makes it sound (to me, anyhow) like the Council of Clans has existed continuously since Dvalin was mortal, which precludes him being a holdover from a previous world, but I suppose it's possible that a previous world also had a dwarven council of clans.




    Or...going further out on the limb of the barely-plausible, maybe the mortal predecessor of Dvalin never actually swore such an oath: maybe prior to this world, Dvalin would vote however he liked. But in this world, the dwarves are more honorable than in previous worlds (because Thor told them about the bet), and so they believe that their ascendent former king would be just as honorable as them. Since gods are shaped by belief, Dvalin changed his behavior accordingly. The dwarves' belief also alterted Dvalin's memories of how he voted during previous worlds to match the justification he gave at the Moot.

    Note: I make no claim that my hypothesis in the previous paragraph is likely, but I do not immediately see a way in which it can be completely ruled out using the text of the comic.

  6. - Top - End - #96

    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    We really can't say anything, because anything people believe about Dvalin could've been baked in to the world's metaphysics when the place was created. For all we know, Dvalin's been around for the last 50,000 worlds.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by 137ben View Post
    Also, Rubyrock's explanation that the Council of Clans still exists, but is not the current Dwarven government makes it sound (to me, anyhow) like the Council of Clans has existed continuously since Dvalin was mortal, which precludes him being a holdover from a previous world, but I suppose it's possible that a previous world also had a dwarven council of clans.
    I can't recall if it's confirmed or just implied, but I took that to mean the former. Dvalin is probably from this world.
    Not all gods make it through the interim period, so a demigod is less likely to have survived. Especially since the last batch of Northerners were apparently quite different from this one.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    That the Dark One might not be about to survive the transition to a new world, despite being an ascended full God with an entire race solely devoted to him, means that Dvalin is almost certainly from this world.

    Not to mention he's the first king of the dwarves, so they presumably have a list going back to him. And, given that they never knew of previous worlds, that lost would be pretty airtight.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Not to mention he's the first king of the dwarves, so they presumably have a list going back to him. And, given that they never knew of previous worlds, that lost would be pretty airtight.
    On the "first king" bit in particular, I imagine "First King of Dwarves" could be a title given to the "spiritual leader" of a race, much like calling Thor "Lord of Thunder". Similarly, you might call King Arthur "First King of Britain" given his iconic nature.
    Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2020-05-03 at 09:36 PM.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    On the "first king" bit in particular, I imagine "First King of Dwarves" could be a title given to the "spiritual leader" of a race, much like calling Thor "Lord of Thunder". You might call a deified King Arthur "First King of Britain" in such a scenario.
    Isn't Arthur "supposed" to be the First King of Britain in a way though? Like he was supposedly the first king to rule over all of Britain (historically I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be accurate in any way but most of King Arthur is so wildly and clearly ahistorical this doesn't really matter)?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    Isn't Arthur "supposed" to be the First King of Britain in a way though? Like he was supposedly the first king to rule over all of Britain (historically I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be accurate in any way but most of King Arthur is so wildly and clearly ahistorical this doesn't really matter)?
    Wasn't King Uther Pendragon also ruling over all of Britain? I can't quite recall, but as you said there's lots of conflicting stuff about King Arthur, let alone the people before him in those same stories.
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Wasn't King Uther Pendragon also ruling over all of Britain? I can't quite recall, but as you said there's lots of conflicting stuff about King Arthur, let alone the people before him in those same stories.
    I think Uther had a couple rival kings that Arthur defeated? But I'm not sure and that might just be me coming up with something for no reason whatsoever.

    But yeah, Arthurian legend is very conflicting, especially because writers can't decide if they want to say that any of the story is real or not.

    EDIT: Also, just realized that you just came back today, no wonder I hadn't noticed your sig during my "Read every post on the whole board" thing in awhile.
    Last edited by Schroeswald; 2020-05-03 at 10:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    The notion of "many petty kings, ruled over by a high king" certainly has some precedent in Welsh history as well as Welsh mythology (Arthurian mythos originating from Wales).

    However, the earliest iterations of Arthur, tend not to put him in that position - and suggest he may be a "leader of battles" (a general, basically) who led the armies on behalf of the kings.
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  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That the DARK One might not be about to survive the transition to a new world, despite being an ascended full God with an entire race solely devoted to him, means that Dvalin is almost certainly from this world.
    I'm trying to find a source for this, but I got the sense that being part of a pantheon helps a lot with having the faith energy necessary to survive transition.

    (FWIW, I think Dvalin ascended during this world's existence, and the elven gods predate it.)
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  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    I'm trying to find a source for this, but I got the sense that being part of a pantheon helps a lot with having the faith energy necessary to survive transition.
    You may be thinking of this early strip.

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  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    You may be thinking of this early strip.

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    In which case, I would not take Elan's word on how it works.
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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    In which case, I would not take Elan's word on how it works.
    Maybe not in the specifics, but on the broad sense, it is true that being part of a pantheon means you share the load - Thor stories of beating Loki gives him worship and belief, but also gives Loki belief, and the same is true about Loki stories - sure, they promote him (worship), but increases the belief across the whole pantheon, since the stories will involve the other gods, sooner or later. Heck, that has to be part of how Hel is surviving, since she lacks the priests to instill belief in her - she's dependent on every other priest of the North painting her as the Death god. But none of those stories involve the DO, so he gets none of the belief.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Maybe not in the specifics, but on the broad sense, it is true that being part of a pantheon means you share the load - Thor stories of beating Loki gives hims worship and belief, but also gives Loki belief, and the same is true about Loki stories - sure, they promote him (worship), but increases the belief across the whole pantheon, since the stories will involve the other gods, sooner or later. Heck, that has to be part of how Hel is surviving, since she lacks the priests to instill belief in her - she's dependent on every other priest of the North painting her as the Death god. But none of those stories involve the DO, so he gets none of the belief.

    Grey Wolf
    Fair point, but TDO still has all goblinoid belief regardless, and a fair share of fervent worship that is undivided.

    I see no reason to believe Dvalin is not from this world. The elven gods we don't really know anything about, IIRC; are they demigods that only the elves really worship but were otherwise always in place, like Thrym or Surtur? Were they elves who ascended and became demigods? Don't know (and if we do know, I don't remember). In any event, I would contend that any ascended demigod
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I think Uther had a couple rival kings that Arthur defeated? But I'm not sure and that might just be me coming up with something for no reason whatsoever.

    But yeah, Arthurian legend is very conflicting, especially because writers can't decide if they want to say that any of the story is real or not.

    EDIT: Also, just realized that you just came back today, no wonder I hadn't noticed your sig during my "Read every post on the whole board" thing in awhile.
    Haha, glad to be remembered. Not sure if I'm going to be "back" much, just that I have too much time on my hands now.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Spoiler: Start of Darkness
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    I never noticed why Rat is furious (1143): in SoD 42, he informs The Dark One about the Gates, and he is described as one of his few allies. So he had more reason than the rest of the Twelve to be angered by the Dark One's High Priest destroying Azure City.
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  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    Spoiler: Start of Darkness
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    I never noticed why Rat is furious (1143): in SoD 42, he informs The Dark One about the Gates, and he is described as one of his few allies. So he had more reason than the rest of the Twelve to be angered by the Dark One's High Priest destroying Azure City.
    Good catch! It's interesting how Rich makes all the stories blend together that way.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  22. - Top - End - #112
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Fair point, but TDO still has all goblinoid belief regardless, and a fair share of fervent worship that is undivided.

    I see no reason to believe Dvalin is not from this world. The elven gods we don't really know anything about, IIRC; are they demigods that only the elves really worship but were otherwise always in place, like Thrym or Surtur? Were they elves who ascended and became demigods? Don't know (and if we do know, I don't remember). In any event, I would contend that any ascended demigod
    It seems to me that being in a pantheon is an effective survival tactic, if one’s worshipping base is split between several gods like the humans are but as it limits infighting between worshippers. Sure the priests of Loki and Thor aren’t happy about each other but on the whole the various temples of the northern gods are unlikely to try to drive out the competition from their territory when said competition is part of the pantheon and more likely to band together if some hot new cult tried to move on their turf. But since the Dark One is apprently the only one trying to get goblin worship, that’s no issue for him.

    The Dark One (and Banjo) is the only god for whom we have an estimate of apotheosis and only the gods shown in the beginning of Shojo’s flashback (Odin, Marduk, Dragon, Thor, the Eastern Pantheon and a couple others) are certified as being there before the worlds. Surtur and Thrym might be ascended Giants for all we know.
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  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    It seems to me that being in a pantheon is an effective survival tactic, if one’s worshipping base is split between several gods like the humans are but as it limits infighting between worshippers. Sure the priests of Loki and Thor aren’t happy about each other but on the whole the various temples of the northern gods are unlikely to try to drive out the competition from their territory when said competition is part of the pantheon and more likely to band together if some hot new cult tried to move on their turf. But since the Dark One is apprently the only one trying to get goblin worship, that’s no issue for him.

    The Dark One (and Banjo) is the only god for whom we have an estimate of apotheosis and only the gods shown in the beginning of Shojo’s flashback (Odin, Marduk, Dragon, Thor, the Eastern Pantheon and a couple others) are certified as being there before the worlds. Surtur and Thrym might be ascended Giants for all we know.
    They could indeed. But then why are there so few demigods? Given the uncountable worlds that have existed, even if only one in a million got a mortal to become a demigod, that would still work out to thousands, if not millions, of potential demigods variously. The two simplest answers to this are:
    A.) apotheosis even to demigod state is so rare that it's practically unheard of - an answer which also assumes that Dvalin, First King of the Dwarves, who swore an oath to always abide by the will of the council.... wasn't, and didn't, which I am not a fan of - or
    2.) demigods don't survive the transition to the new world.
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    They could indeed. But then why are there so few demigods? Given the uncountable worlds that have existed, even if only one in a million got a mortal to become a demigod, that would still work out to thousands, if not millions, of potential demigods variously. The two simplest answers to this are:
    A.) apotheosis even to demigod state is so rare that it's practically unheard of - an answer which also assumes that Dvalin, First King of the Dwarves, who swore an oath to always abide by the will of the council.... wasn't, and didn't, which I am not a fan of - or
    2.) demigods don't survive the transition to the new world.
    3) Pantheons only help a mortal achieve godhood when it is in their interest to do so. For example Dvalin may have been sponsored because Thor felt the need for the dwarves to have an ethnic god to help shoulder his burden of shield them from the Bet and when the mortal Dvalin died and the opportunity prensented itself he got enough relatives on-board with the idea.
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    The notion of "many petty kings, ruled over by a high king" certainly has some precedent in Welsh history as well as Welsh mythology (Arthurian mythos originating from Wales).
    Irish too, under the High King of Tara. Reputedly, they had over a hundred kings when the Vikings showed up and began forced consolidation.

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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    3) Pantheons only help a mortal achieve godhood when it is in their interest to do so
    Covered under the first possibility; regardless of why, it's still unimaginably rare, given how few there seem to be compared to how many worlds there have been. That does combat the assumption, I'll admit, but I don't find it particularly persuasive.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-05-04 at 11:03 AM.
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    I think we have seen part of the process to become a demigod: one of the believers contacts the clergy of a pantheon and asks for the "godling" to be admitted. If the gods agree and the request isn't retired, the godling becomes a demigod. In the case of the Northern Gods, the chief god (Odin) seems to have a special interest in new applications... or maybe just in puppets. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html

    We also know what gods need to survive and that new gods may not make it through world iterations. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    I think we have seen part of the process to become a demigod: one of the believers contacts the clergy of a pantheon and asks for the "godling" to be admitted. If the gods agree and the request isn't retired, the godling becomes a demigod. In the case of the Northern Gods, the chief god (Odin) seems to have a special interest in new applications... or maybe just in puppets. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html
    Odin's interest takes on a different meaning when we discover he is mentally compromised due to an older world's belief system. We don't know what Thor was saying, as he just declares the topic moot. So we don't actually know the process, I would argue.
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  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Covered under the first possibility; regardless of why, it's still unimaginably rare, given how few there seem to be compared to how many worlds there have been. That does combat the assumption, I'll admit, but I don't find it particularly persuasive.
    So what if it’s rare? There are people who won the lottery twice or got struck by lightning a dozen times (including lightning strikes on their graves).

    Also I refer you to Vaarsuvius’s assessment of the relationship between probability and drama.
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    Default Re: Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    ... much like calling Thor "Lord of Thunder"...
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