Crappy parent = man

[Riftwolf]

I've been reading V as gender-neutral for a long time, and trying to find rationales for whether they're male/female feels like an argument from ten years ago (especially when the logic is as flawed and opinionated as 'V is male because all men in the comic are bad parents and V is a bad parent')

[Themrys]

And Loki's a father himself, and for all his lies and scheming at least he's still present for Hel and making an effort to give some education to his daughter. Not Hel's mother though. Whoever that goddess is, she just doesn't give a single damn while Hel starves herself to death while trying to destroy the world.

Perhaps she is dead. Have you considered that?

{scrubbed}


Besides, this is Loki we are talking about. Trickster and shapeshifter. For all we know, Hel could have been fathered by Thor and Loki could be the mother.

That would explain why he is such an involved parent.

However, he isn't exactly parent of the year. Remember, that bet that lead to her unbalanced diet? That was Loki's idea. Perhaps she wasn't a nice person before, but he sure messed her up.


*scrubbed*

[CriticalFailure]

Assuming that Gods reproduce like mortals seems unrealistic. There's no reason to assume that.

Arguing about whether V is male or female seems pointless because the FAQ states it will never be revealed, but discussing how different people view her can still be interesting I guess. It's interesting why different people imagine V differently, at least I find it interesting.

As for Miko, I think the fact that Shinjo encouraged her to become a trainee of the Sapphire Guard as a child is pretty telling. He may have been a close and beloved mentor but it seems pretty clear that their relationship was always one of a lord and his warrior vassal, in which Miko's martial capabilities were always the thing about her that was most important and the reason she was there in the first place.

[Peelee]

As for Miko, I think the fact that Shinjo encouraged her to become a trainee of the Sapphire Guard as a child is pretty telling.

Well, she was teenaged (likely mid-late teenage). Still a child, yes, but a bit more context there.

[Quizatzhaderac]

So what do you propose then?

Do you claim that V has been intended to be female from the start? .

Speaking about intentions, V was originally (in the single digit pages) intended to be male. But soon after the intention became (and remained) unknowable sex. There is almost certain one known unambigous sex from Inkyrius's perspective, but from the audience's perspective V's genitals are an unknowable undefinable mystery.

For my own interpretations, the unknowable sex perfectly underscores the separation of sex and gender: trying to use sex to inform gender is an obviously pointless endeavor in this case.

1-Loki's mother.

2-Hel's mother.

Frigg is almost certainly Loki's mother in OOTS. Hel's mother likely isn't a member of the northern pantheon. Although she might be some kind of minor less than demi-goddess that survives the world's changes. Or she may have been a goddess that didn't make it with one of the world changes.

At any rate, the gods are tertiary characters and stuff has to be left out. Additionally the gods aren't children (they might not have ever even been children) and they have special reasons to be screwed up that no amount of parenting can fix.

As for Miko, I think the fact that Shinjo encouraged her to become a trainee of the Sapphire Guard as a child is pretty telling.

Depending on how historical you want to be, that might be very conventional. Not starting military training before 18 would seem like not teaching a person to read until 18 and then expecting them to become a scholar would to us.

Although I imagine Miko as something of a special needs child, in that she had more pressing needs than a career, as was not suited for a life of violence.

[Themrys]

For my own interpretations, the unknowable sex perfectly underscores the separation of sex and gender: trying to use sex to inform ender is an obviously pointless endeavor in this case.

I think you mean the other way round: Saying that V must be male because V is a crappy parent is to use gender stereotypes to guess at V's sex.

Is that what you mean? I haven't come across "to inform" used like that before.

If V was a real person, V being an emotionally distant parent would not rule out V being female at all. However, considering that V is a fictional character, and the author has stated he wants to avoid gender stereotypes ... I would say V has a slightly higher chance of being female in the author's mind.

On the other hand, since V's sex will never be revealed, the author might not feel the need to intentionally go against the stereotype in this case.

It is all about psychology. If V's sex is not a static fact that has been never altered from the start (in which case it would be very likely male) then V's sex as perceived by the author might even change to suit the story. As said, I would be easier able to write about Belkar molesting V if I imagined V to be male. Other plot elements, such as sharing a room with Haley, work better with female V. Et cetera. (Had V still been of clearly defined sex at the time that scene took place, I would consider it proof that V is female, but the scene is so comedic that I strongly suspect V's unknown sex already was a running gag by then)



Regarding Miko, I don't think it was unusual or wrong in and of itself to encourage her to do something useful with her life. And becoming a warrior might have been the socially expected thing for someone of her social standing. I just think more attention should have been paid to her emotional needs. Though that ship might already have sailed in her preteen years.

[Schroeswald]

Speaking about intentions, V was originally (in the single digit pages) intended to be male. But soon after the intention became (and remained) unknowable sex. There is almost certain one known unambigous sex from Inkyrius's perspective, but from the audience's perspective V's genitals are an unknowable undefinable mystery.

Almost correct, we don't actually know what V's original intended gender was, Rich only told one person and that other person won't tell.

[Themrys]

Almost correct, we don't actually know what V's original intended gender was, Rich only told one person and that other person won't tell.

That, plus Haley was treated as token female in the early strips, and androgynous elves in fiction tend to all be actually male. Female elves ... tend to not be portrayed in ways that would leave any room for doubt.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I think you mean the other way round: Saying that V must be male because V is a crappy parent is to use gender stereotypes to guess at V's sex.

We here (in this thread) are using the characters social roles to inform on V's sex, but I was referring to the general human tendency to assume sex causes gender/ social roles/behavior.

V's sex as perceived by the author might even change to suit the story.

I don't see the need for that. In my mind, there is a fact in our world the fictional Vaarsuvius's sex is confirmed and proven to be unknowable. If V was a real person, there would have to be some fact of the matter (male/female/intersex), but since their not a real person there doesn't need to be a real fact of the matter.

I suspect that in Rich's mind, V is also in their own special category. And even if Rich does have an idea for V as one sex or another, he will intentionally hide any expressions of that, which means (as I would call it) the author's intention is an unknowable sex.

As said, I would be easier able to write about Belkar molesting V if I imagined V to be male. Other plot elements, such as sharing a room with Haley, work better with female V.

I think it's one of Rich's goals to challenge the reader by having them interpret those situations without knowing the sex. Does the gender of the people involved matter in situations like those? Usually, yes. Does it matter in these exact situations? No, and we have to figure out how to interpret them without our usual gender constructs.

Regarding Miko, I don't think it was unusual or wrong in and of itself to encourage her to do something useful with her life. And becoming a warrior might have been the socially expected thing for someone of her social standing. I just think more attention should have been paid to her emotional needs. Though that ship might already have sailed in her preteen years.

As I see it, the problem is encouraging that specific person to do that specific thing with their life. Specifically as not addressing her emotional needs. Paladin-hood is just a situation where the symptoms of her problems were less problematic, which just provided a way to avoid addressing them in any substantial way.

[CriticalFailure]

For my own interpretations, the unknowable sex perfectly underscores the separation of sex and gender: trying to use sex to inform ender is an obviously pointless endeavor in this case.

Doesn't it do the opposite? In that the only reason people are confused about how to characterize V is because they can't determine her sex?

Well, she was teenaged (likely mid-late teenage). Still a child, yes, but a bit more context there.

In terms of age and stuff I think it makes sense in the setting, but I do think it says some things about their relationship.

[Ruck]

Sorry, in my opinion, there seems to be.....

Yeah, that kind of gets to my point, which is that I don't think it's really as clear-cut as that. Eugene and Horace clearly didn't get along, but we mostly hear it from Horace's perspective, which is that of Eugene berating him for being a stupid fighter and not a brilliant wizard, much how he treated Roy. Until we see otherwise, I'm going to assume that Eugene is just a self-centered jerk, because that seems to be the recurring pattern of his relationships.

I've been reading V as gender-neutral for a long time, and trying to find rationales for whether they're male/female feels like an argument from ten years ago (especially when the logic is as flawed and opinionated as 'V is male because all men in the comic are bad parents and V is a bad parent')

V is according to the author genderqueer, a term which can cover a wide range (but generally just does not include cis male/female). I don't think we're ever going to get a definite answer; for all we know Elves in OOTS have a wide range of gender and/or don't conceive of it in the same way we do.

As far as the binary, Vaarsuvius has generally read more female than male to me, but I think their relationship with Haley is what informs a lot of that.

[Schroeswald]

Yeah, that kind of gets to my point, which is that I don't think it's really as clear-cut as that. Eugene and Horace clearly didn't get along, but we mostly hear it from Horace's perspective, which is that of Eugene berating him for being a stupid fighter and not a brilliant wizard, much how he treated Roy. Until we see otherwise, I'm going to assume that Eugene is just a self-centered jerk, because that seems to be the recurring pattern of his relationships.



V is according to the author genderqueer, a term which can cover a wide range (but generally just does not include cis male/female). I don't think we're ever going to get a definite answer; for all we know Elves in OOTS have a wide range of gender and/or don't conceive of it in the same way we do.

As far as the binary, Vaarsuvius has generally read more female than male to me, but I think their relationship with Haley is what informs a lot of that.

All of this, I agree with everything you just said here.

[pearl jam]

I suspect that in Rich's mind, V is also in their own special category. And even if Rich does have an idea for V as one sex or another, he will intentionally hide any expressions of that, which means (as I would call it) the author's intention is an unknowable sex.I think it's one of Rich's goals to challenge the reader by having them interpret those situations without knowing the sex. Does the gender of the people involved matter in situations like those? Usually, yes. Does it matter in these exact situations? No, and we have to figure out how to interpret them without our usual gender constructs.

I think that, like the tentacle spell, if the Giant had been writing the early part of the story from the same perspective that he's writing it now, that the Belkar/V scene would likely not have been included, or, if it were, certainly not for a joke. While my original interpretation of V was as male, I don't think it would materially impact my feeling about that scene had I interpreted V as female, either. But, then again, perhaps it would have at an earlier stage, too.

[CriticalFailure]

I think if V were conceived as female by the author she wouldn’t have gotten a lot of the character arc stuff she’s had. A lot of what she’s had is pretty atypical for female characters. Which is a big part of why I like to imagine her as female.

[Themrys]

I think that, like the tentacle spell, if the Giant had been writing the early part of the story from the same perspective that he's writing it now, that the Belkar/V scene would likely not have been included, or, if it were, certainly not for a joke. While my original interpretation of V was as male, I don't think it would materially impact my feeling about that scene had I interpreted V as female, either. But, then again, perhaps it would have at an earlier stage, too.

Well, your profile says you're male.

Sexual harrassment by men who are part of your friend circle, will likely not be kicked out of said friend circle regardless of what they have done, and whom you can't sue because people would drag your own reputation through the dirt ... is likely not something you tend to worry about.

If we interpret V as female, then that's just more of the same **** women have to deal with every day, and makes me, a woman, extremely uncomfortable while reading it.

If we interpret V as male, then that's a reveal of Belkar's repressed homosexual attraction (which, I guess, makes the scene a little less gratuitous) and an unusually ****ty day in the life of an androgynous male elf who usually doesn't have to deal with that kind of ****. Still uncomfortable, but nothing that makes me feel personally threatened.


@CriticalFailure: I like to give the author the benefit of the doubt, but I suspect you might be right.

[brian 333]

The Haley/Vaarsuvius relationship early on does not imply a female V. It implies that Haley knows that V isn't attracted to her because hetero males look at hotties like her, which V, unlike all the other guys in OotS, does not.

Neither does the Belkar incident. V is not concerned with Belkar's gender but with his intelligence, (or lack thereof,) and Belkar is obviously confused on the issue.

What both Haley and Belkar have in common is that they are strongly aligned with their stereotypical sex roles. For V this is unattractive. V likes the androgynes.

For the record, in the early days of D&D only male elves were andys; female elves were always stereotyped as supermodels.

My quatloos are on V being sexually male with androgynous gender.

[Themrys]

The Haley/Vaarsuvius relationship early on does not imply a female V. It implies that Haley knows that V isn't attracted to her because hetero males look at hotties like her, which V, unlike all the other guys in OotS, does not.

I am a woman myself, you know?
And I would not usually choose to room with a strange male over rooming alone. Privacy is privacy, it is independent from attraction, and gay men have been known to sexually harrass women and demand it be tolerated because of their lack of attraction, so there.

However, I might say about another woman that she will room with me if I knew she is very naive when it comes to human males, having grown up among elves, and would likely room with one of them and be molested if I didn't put my foot down.

Therefore, without any other context, I would take the scene as strong hint that V is female.

Of course, Haley knew V before anyone else, and knew V was married, which hints at them being good friends. In that case, Haley would trust V to not molest her, and also would trust that V would thoroughly annihilate any person entering the room at night with questionable purposes. Which might also prompt her to room with V in a cheap inn with thin walls and probably even worse doors. For the safety of her precious gems, if nothing else.
So V can be male, too.

As for V's gender, I never ever wondered about that. V does not - in V's natural state, being at home in the elven lands - have a gender. Elvish society, or at least where V grew up, seems to not even have gender as a part of grammar. "Androgynous gender" would still be a gender. We have never seen V complain about any pronouns used for V.

[Peelee]

And I would not usually choose to room with a strange male over rooming alone.

V's not a stranger, though; V and Haley are friends (and we see them talking in OtOoPC, where they are friends before either joined the Order).

I do agree with everything else you said there.

[brian 333]

A room of her own is not an option, and her choices are the male members of the OotS. Of them all, androgynous V is the only one who hasn't ogled her.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Of course V isn't attracted to Haley. She isn't an Object of Arcane Power.

Which suddenly raises the question of how Inky got V's attention long enough for an attachment to form.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Of course V isn't attracted to Haley. She isn't an Object of Arcane Power.

Which suddenly raises the question of how Inky got V's attention long enough for an attachment to form.

Well, we do know that it took many years...

[Themrys]

Of course V isn't attracted to Haley. She isn't an Object of Arcane Power.

Which suddenly raises the question of how Inky got V's attention long enough for an attachment to form.

They talked about doilies. Obviously.

[Jay R]

I suspect that Vaarsuvius was originally conceived as a male, because Rich has used many names without ever using a cross-gender name, and he clearly understands Latin endings, and “-ius” is a masculine ending.

[I would not be surprised if Rich used a cross-gender name now, but he clearly did not in the early days of the strip.]

But he’s told us that since people started speculating, he has deliberately written him/her as a gender-ambiguous character.

This means that there is no answer now. Not that he hasn’t revealed the answer, but that there isn’t one.

[Themrys]

I suspect that Vaarsuvius was originally conceived as a male, because Rich has used many names without ever using a cross-gender name, and he clearly understands Latin endings, and “-ius” is a masculine ending.

[I would not be surprised if Rich used a cross-gender name now, but he clearly did not in the early days of the strip.]

But he’s told us that since people started speculating, he has deliberately written him/her as a gender-ambiguous character.

This means that there is no answer now. Not that he hasn’t revealed the answer, but that there isn’t one.

You still get hung up on Vaarsuvius gender. Vaarsuvius does not have a gender, i.e. a number of social stereotypes that V is used to having forced onto all people of V's sex. Elvish society was clearly portrayed as not having that sort of thing. That is the thing that Rich added after people got confused - the total lack of gender, not sex.

Besides, didn't Rich state somewhere that Vaarsuvius does have a clearly defined sex, but that we will never be told what it is? In that case, the answer exists - we just don't have access to it.

[NontheistCleric]

You still get hung up on Vaarsuvius gender. Vaarsuvius does not have a gender, i.e. a number of social stereotypes that V is used to having forced onto all people of V's sex. Elvish society was clearly portrayed as not having that sort of thing. That is the thing that Rich added after people got confused - the total lack of gender, not sex.

It's never actually stated that V has no gender. True, we don't know that V has a gender, but we also don't know that they don't. Elven society may not have that kind of thing, but who says V has to conform to elven society's standards? Lirian and Veldrina, at least, seem to have gender, so it's not impossible for elves to do so.

Also, one's gender does not have to be the social stereotypes that are forced onto one's own sex; it is possible to identify with a gender that is commonly associated with members of a different sex.

[CriticalFailure]

Is there any reason to think that Lirian and Veldrina consider themselves belonging to a certain role in their society or are they simply not androgynous as some elves are?

[factotum]

Is there any reason to think that Lirian and Veldrina consider themselves belonging to a certain role in their society or are they simply not androgynous as some elves are?

Well, Lirian was definitely the lover of the unquestionably male Dorukan, and while that doesn't necessarily imply she has a defined gender role, it certainly makes it more likely.

[Sir_Norbert]

Veldrina should probably not be weighted too heavily here, considering her origins as a Kickstarter backer reward.

That said, I agree it's absurd to make blanket statements about elven society, when all we know is that two specific elves have no gender, one of those two doesn't seem to understand the concept, and elven language has non-gendered terms for referring to parents. Language is not the same as society. Some languages have gendered terms for "cousin", while English does not. Does that mean English speakers perceive cousinhood differently? I highly doubt it.

[hroþila]

I'd say we've seen elves all over the gender spectrum* in the comic, but the majority seems to be androgynous to various degrees (and this includes Veldrina). My interpretation is that V and Inky are typical elves in this regard, while Lirian and the Team Peregrine commander probably aren't.

*according to our own society's understanding of gender, at any rate

[Seward]

Maybe monks are more-or-less like that, but that isn't a problem because they don't leave the monastery. Or maybe the problem was mixing up monkish discipline with the paladin code in a child that didn't have any parental figure to complement and nuance what she was taught by instructors. As she becomes more intolerable and avoided, she is increasingly isolated, which probably made a number on her mental health. As she becomes a troublemaker, Shojo starts sending her away, something in which she probably takes pride, but also deprives her even more of the chance of being part of a community.

Mechanically, Monks consider Lawful to be the important thing, and that did seem to translate into how Miko approached being a Paladin. It is possible that her tendency to quick judgement and violence were noticed at an early age and the monastic training was an attempt to channel that into something safe for society - and that later it was hoped that the Paladin code would also help with that goal. Ie, what if Belkar was caught young and given Monk and Paladin training?

The one monk I played for any length of time was a half-orc who wanted an alternative to the Rage path for being an effective warrior so he was atypical in many ways due to his history and upbringing (wanted and eventually had a family, also trained at a Bardic College to gain an understanding of human behavior - also because he enjoyed being a large Ham on the acting stage) but the concept of discipline and finding a solution within the Law was a big deal for him (he was also a devout follower of a LG god with neutral tendencies).