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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Jun 2018
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    New England

    Default Re: Automotive Rediculousness

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fury View Post
    Kind of. It's less about "stylish curves" and more about minimizing the exterior dimensions and maximizing the interior dimensions while cramming as many features into it as possible. Basically modern cars place a much higher priority on driver's comfort than mechanic's convenience. As a result the engine compartment is usually made just big enough for the engine, its controls and the A/C system, so it's pretty tight in there.
    Like the Toyota Matrix, where easiest way to replace the starter is to remove the intake manifold. Or the nissan v6s where the starter is on top of the engine block, in the valley pan.......

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Feb 2013

    Default Re: Automotive Rediculousness

    I think we just need to accept that a mechanic kicked an engineer's dog while stealing his wife and taking the last beer at some point and we're all still paying for it.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    The Fury's Avatar

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    Feb 2013

    Default Re: Automotive Rediculousness

    Quote Originally Posted by DwarvenWarCorgi View Post
    Like the Toyota Matrix, where easiest way to replace the starter is to remove the intake manifold. Or the nissan v6s where the starter is on top of the engine block, in the valley pan.......
    That isn't so bad compared to the Hyundai and Chrysler V6s where you need to remove the intake manifold to change the spark plugs! I mean, it's not like spark plugs are wear items that need to be changed periodically. Nor do intake manifolds need to be reinstalled carefully to avoid damage and require new gaskets every time they're replaced. Otherwise that design would be completely boneheaded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    I think we just need to accept that a mechanic kicked an engineer's dog while stealing his wife and taking the last beer at some point and we're all still paying for it.
    That would explain a lot.

    Dear Engineers,
    What was done to you by my kind was wrong and on behalf of all of us, I offer my hand in apology. I cannot say whether we will ever earn or deserve your forgiveness, but I hope that in the future we can understand one another better and be more accepting of our differences.

    Did I do it? Did I mend the rift between mechanics and engineers with my heartfelt apology?

    ...Yeah, I didn't think so. Maybe I shouldn't have called that V6 design "boneheaded."
    Iop brain.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Jun 2018
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    New England

    Default Re: Automotive Rediculousness


    Let's not forget the mazda 4cyl in the mazda and ford compact pickups........8 spark plugs on a 4cyl, and the intake has to be removed to get to 2 of them.......
    Last edited by DwarvenWarCorgi; 2020-01-13 at 01:23 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Feb 2007
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    Manchester, UK
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    Default Re: Automotive Rediculousness

    This is where owning a Dacia comes in handy. See, in order to save money they make as much of the car the same as they can for economies of scale, which means the engine bay in my Sandero (which is occupied by a 900cc turbo engine) is the same as in the bigger Duster, which means it needs to be big enough to accommodate a 1.5 diesel or a 1.6 petrol. There's bags of spare room in there!

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    The Fury's Avatar

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    Feb 2013

    Default Re: Automotive Rediculousness

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    This is where owning a Dacia comes in handy. See, in order to save money they make as much of the car the same as they can for economies of scale, which means the engine bay in my Sandero (which is occupied by a 900cc turbo engine) is the same as in the bigger Duster, which means it needs to be big enough to accommodate a 1.5 diesel or a 1.6 petrol. There's bags of spare room in there!
    1970s GM vehicles are much the same way. It's not uncommon for some variant of a given chassis design to be available with a big block V8, so quite a few of them have big engine bays. It also helps that quite a few of these platforms were used up to the early 1980s, some as late as the 1990s.
    Iop brain.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Automotive Rediculousness

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fury View Post
    1970s GM vehicles are much the same way. It's not uncommon for some variant of a given chassis design to be available with a big block V8, so quite a few of them have big engine bays. It also helps that quite a few of these platforms were used up to the early 1980s, some as late as the 1990s.
    My 04 gm is the same way. Available with i4, i5 or v8. I have the 5, so theres plenty of room, but theres still all kinds of wonky stuff to deal with. About the only bonus I got is the radiator is the same for the 5 and the 8, so I NEVER have to worry about overheating, takes a long time for the heater to come up in the winter though.

    Reminds me of the stupidest thing I've had to fix on it though. I've gone through 3 blower motor resistors. The ground for the resistor is 3 feet long, snakes out of the passenger compartment into the engine bay where it is attached to a little bracket with 9 other cables. The bracket is grounded to the inner fender with a tiny screw onto chemically bonded paint. Because the ground is so sh##y, the resistor gets hot enough that one time it set its wiring harness on fire......theres aftermarket repair kits that come with a resistor and a harness, but I had to scour the web to track down that ground and remedy tthe real problem. I ended up moving the bracket closer to the closest chassis to block cable and taking that area down to bare metal before i attached it. Without swapping it to a larger gauge cable or adding a heavy ground to my dashboard frame and running a short cable for the resistor, I'll never really "solve" that issue though.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Bohandas's Avatar

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    Feb 2016

    Default Re: Automotive Rediculousness

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Yeah actual name brand auto dealer repair shops are massive ripoffs. They rely on familiarity and trust to lure customers in with prices that are often 2-3x more than you could get from a regular mechanic, but you see that ford/gm/toyota/whatever logo and you just assume you can trust them to do a good job. Its literally paying for the name brand over the generic.
    Untimately, that's the case for EVERY brand name product or service, not just auto repairs

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Jan 2020

    Default Re: Automotive Rediculousness

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fury View Post
    That would explain a lot.
    Is that a fact?
    Last edited by FredJackson; 2020-01-15 at 04:05 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    GrayDeath's Avatar

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    Default Re: Automotive Rediculousness

    Most ludicrous discrepancy on doing the same work I ever saw in cars we owned?

    Spark Plug change:

    2000 Alfa Romeo 2.0 Twin SPark GTv: 8 Plugs, with removing and reapplying of various stuff: 2.25 hours on average.

    Kaguar XJ 12: Remove covering (1 minute) switch Plugs (about 3 minutes tops per plug, ergo at most 36 minutes for 12) reapply Cover (1 minute) done.


    But yeah, overall car designers mostly go like this:

    How does it work best? How can we do that cheapest? How can we then make it look good? DOne!
    ...
    Repair? Whats that?
    A neutron walks into a bar and says, “How much for a beer?” The bartender says, “For you? No charge.”


    Later: An atom walks into a bar an asks the bartender “Have you seen an electron? I left it in here last night.” The bartender says, “Are you sure?” The atom says, “I’m positive.”

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Jan 2020

    Default Re: Automotive Rediculousness

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayDeath View Post
    Most ludicrous discrepancy on doing the same work I ever saw in cars we owned?

    Spark Plug change:

    2000 Alfa Romeo 2.0 Twin SPark GTv: 8 Plugs, with removing and reapplying of various stuff: 2.25 hours on average.

    Kaguar XJ 12: Remove covering (1 minute) switch Plugs (about 3 minutes tops per plug, ergo at most 36 minutes for 12) reapply Cover (1 minute) done.


    But yeah, overall car designers mostly go like this:

    How does it work best? How can we do that cheapest? How can we then make it look good? DOne!
    ...
    Repair? Whats that?
    Am i the only one who doesn't find this funny?

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Titan in the Playground
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    Dec 2010
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    right behind you

    Default Re: Automotive Rediculousness

    Only quitters and fools design their vehicles around the need for repairs. REAL engineers know they just have to design the car to never break down so it doesnt matter how annoying it is to fix, it will never come up in the first place! So go on and design the engine like a rubiks cube mixed with the lament configuration, im sure it will be fine.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    New England

    Default Re: Automotive Rediculousness

    Quote Originally Posted by William M. Pail View Post
    Am i the only one who doesn't find this funny?
    It's not funny, but what can you do but laugh.

    I cant believe I havent mentioned my "favorite" piece of ridiculous design on my 04 Colorado:front brakes.

    99% of vehicles I've ever seen with front disk brakes, you remove the wheel, 2 bolts to take the caliper off to get the pads out, 2 more bolts to remove the caliper bracket, then the rotor just slips off (honda has a retaining bolt on the rotor).

    On 04-12 Colorado/canyon, remove the hubcap, remove the CV axle nut(195ft/lbs torque), then the wheel. Next, remove the inner fender splash guard, wiggle your arm up between the fender and engine to find the ABS sensor wire (blind). Unclip the wire from all its retainers, and unthread it from everything it wraps around. 2 bolts remove caliper, 2 more from the bracket, then 3 bolts on the back of the steering knuckle to remove the hub from the knuckle, but 1 of them you have to compress the suspension to get to. Then you can remove the hub, very carefully snaking the ABS wire between the axle and knuckle.

    Because THE ROTOR IS BETWEEN THE HUB AND KNUCKLE. WHY.

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Troll in the Playground
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    Jan 2007

    Default Re: Automotive Rediculousness

    Quote Originally Posted by DwarvenWarCorgi View Post
    It's not funny, but what can you do but laugh.
    Obviously dance.

    That being said, I begun to wonder, how do they manage with assembling the cars theese days if the vital subsystems are so interlocked in stupid ways? Is it all because production assembly is done by machines and repair is still fully manual?

    edit: just a typo.
    Last edited by Radar; 2020-01-19 at 10:06 AM.
    In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Jun 2018
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    New England

    Default Re: Automotive Rediculousness

    Initial assembly and repair are entirely different concepts. Adding part after part in a checklist fashion is easy because you're repeating the same order ad nauseam (robots make it even easier). Trying to get to one failed part is usually a total PITA.

    Take subaru for example. Recommended service every 100k mi on their horizontally opposed engines is drop the engine out of the vehicle, replace head gaskets, water pump and timing tensioner, before they fail. Because its LESS work that way.

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Titan in the Playground
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    Dec 2010
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    right behind you

    Default Re: Automotive Rediculousness

    Quote Originally Posted by DwarvenWarCorgi View Post
    Initial assembly and repair are entirely different concepts. Adding part after part in a checklist fashion is easy because you're repeating the same order ad nauseam (robots make it even easier). Trying to get to one failed part is usually a total PITA.

    Take subaru for example. Recommended service every 100k mi on their horizontally opposed engines is drop the engine out of the vehicle, replace head gaskets, water pump and timing tensioner, before they fail. Because its LESS work that way.
    Agreed, everything in the vehicle, no matter which make model or year it is, fits together like a giant jigsaw puzzle, assembling it isnt the issue, its reaching specific parts that SHOULD be easy to reach because they are the ones that are most commonly replaced only to find they arent. Imagine if you had to remove a tire every time you refilled the wiper fluid. Its fine when putting the car together, just add the fluid before the wheel goes on, but having to take it off again every time you run out is silly.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

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