Captain Marvel Fame & Recognition

[Rodin]

For fun, I asked a couple of people to name the first 5 superheroes that came into their heads - one acquaintance a fair bit younger than myself, and my parents as a pair.

The acquaintance rattled through Iron Man, Hulk, Captain America, Captain Marvel, and Spiderman. So the MCU won the day. As for Robin, she was only vaguely aware of him.

My parents went through Batman, Superman, Wolverine, and finally Spiderman. My mother knew Robin, but didn't say him because she didn't consider him a superhero. Both were shocked to learn that the comics were on their fifth Robin by this point (not counting alternate universes and such).

Anecdotal, but still a fun experiment.

[LibraryOgre]

I mean, look at The Dark Knight Rises and the twist with Joseph Gordon Levitt's character. He wasn't even a Robin, rather his name was literally Robin and that was the takeaway.

That particularly annoyed me, because his last name is Blake, not Drake, who was at least a Robin.

But that's comic nerd stuff.

[Lethologica]

Remember that the comparison we are discussing is, "If we had to pick, say, a top ten modern folks, based primarily on who people recognize today, who would they be?" no more, no less. Not cultural relevance, not impact on how comic books and comic book movies are made. Broad-spread name recognition.

Why name recognition, specifically? If I showed a hundred people a slideshow of the various Wolverines and Robins (with no Batman in sight), I know which one I'm betting gets recognized more often.

[dancrilis]

Why name recognition, specifically? If I showed a hundred people a slideshow of the various Wolverines and Robins (with no Batman in sight), I know which one I'm betting gets recognized more often.

Not exactly a slideshow but I am thinking it would be the robins, but feel free to decide for yourselves:

Spoiler

Show

As for Carol Danvers maybe the fact that her most memorable villian is the one she slept with - and who was also kindof her son - hurts her reputation a little bit.

[Willie the Duck]

Why name recognition, specifically?

Because that was the question asked for which people started making top-ten lists.

[Peelee]

For fun, I asked a couple of people to name the first 5 superheroes that came into their heads - one acquaintance a fair bit younger than myself, and my parents as a pair.

The acquaintance rattled through Iron Man, Hulk, Captain America, Captain Marvel, and Spiderman. So the MCU won the day.

Hardly surprising, considering the sheer volume of movies they'd put out which built on each other.

Also, i choose to believe she meant the original Captain Marvel .

[Talakeal]

That particularly annoyed me, because his last name is Blake, not Drake, who was at least a Robin.

But that's comic nerd stuff.

For some reason that moved changed a lot of people's names.

Holly Robinson became Jen, Roland Daggett become John Daggett, and Tim Drake became Robin Blake. Its weird.

Hardly surprising, considering the sheer volume of movies they'd put out which built on each other.

Also, i choose to believe she meant the original Captain Marvel .

When my mom and I went to see Captain Marvel, it took forever to explain to my dad that it wasn't the same movie as Shazam.

[Willie the Duck]

For some reason that moved changed a lot of people's names.

Holly Robinson became Jen, Roland Daggett become John Daggett, and Tim Drake became Robin Blake. Its weird.

Some other property (one of the cartoons, perhaps) have exclusive rights the specific names but not concepts at the time? Copyright and licensing weirdness happen amongst these things from time to time. Hopefully no one thought they were getting the actual property and instead were getting a little sliver of the development space.

[Lethologica]

Because that was the question asked for which people started making top-ten lists.

The original post refers to:

the way characters are perceived

based primarily on who people recognize today

My question was why name recognition is the chosen metric, as opposed to other forms of recognition.

[TeChameleon]

My comments on Peelee's comments in bold, because I don't feel like trying to disentangle the quote-list-pile-thing right now...

Don't really read non-Star Wars comics. Saw most superhero movies before the MCU, and barely any after. So I feel like I'm a decent random same for the purposes of this. So...

• Fantastic Four - pretty much always knew them, at the very least from those cheesy cartoons back when. "Flame on!" and "it's clobberin' time!" were my two big takeaways. Also invisibility also grants force field abilities or something? And they made themselves into a corporation, I think? Hey, it's like a precursor to The Boys! But these I know. Sounds like you stopped watching cartoons too soon
• Doctor Doom - Evil guy who looks like a robot but isn't. He's like the Joker to the F4, right? Their archnemesis and only they fight him? I'd say they're on equal footing. I think he was on the ship with them and also got his powers that way but went evil instead and can't take the mask off. Bit surprised by this one- even discounting Doctor Doom's many, many, many comic book appearances, he's shown up in a lot of different media, some of which has absolutely nothing to do with the Fantastic Four- the early 80s Spider-Man cartoon, the 90s X-Men cartoon, 90s Spider-Man cartoon, Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes and Avengers Assemble both...
• Galactus - I literally only know this guy as Silver Surfer's boss, and I'm pretty sure Silver Surfer is a little obscure. Was he really related to the Fantastic Four in any way or did that crappy movie way back when just tap into him because the rights were cheap? Anyway. Eats planets. Would have confused him with Thanos before all those Avenger movies. Galactus and the Silver Surfer first appeared in the Fantastic Four comics way back in the day, and also have at least a handful of media appearances- many of the same shows as Doctor Doom, actually.
• Annihilus - who? Relegated to comic-book nerds, mostly, but he was at the heart of one of Marvel's huge crossovers a couple of years ago- "The Annihilation Event".
• The Skrull Empire - i would say "who?" but I think they were in the Captain Marvel movie maybe? If not for that, they'd be relegated to the unknown column. Yup, they were the oppressed minority in the Captain Marvel movie. Also shown up in more than a few places, such as a bunch of the shows mentioned under Doctor Doom, and had their own major crossover storyline a while ago- the "Secret Invasion".
• Ronan the Accuser - ok now you're just making names up. As noted, the primary antagonist in the Guardians of the Galaxy movie... and for that matter, the Captain Marvel movie. Maybe the people who complain that Marvel has trouble making memorable villains have a point...
• Terrax the Tamer - the tamer? Is there a Terrax the Feircer? Wouldn't he be a better villain? Cmon, this guy even sounds lame, how can he be popular? Think 'tamer' as a verb, not an adjective, as in 'one who tames things'. In comics, at least, he's one of these 'powerful enough to look challenging while not so powerful that people call hax when you beat hiim' villains that jobs to a lot of new heroes and teams. Dunno if 'popular' is the right word, but 'frequently-appearing-jobber' is a bit of a mouthful.

So, with a sample size of one, and all evidence being anecdotal... I challenge your claim as to how well known their rogues are. Doom, Ph.D is the only one who could come close, and he I always lump in with F4.

[GloatingSwine]

The original post refers to:


My question was why name recognition is the chosen metric, as opposed to other forms of recognition.

Mostly because "It's him, that one, thingy" doesn't really count as recognition.

Though "can name the character from a picture" would count.

[Talakeal]

Bit surprised by this one- even discounting Doctor Doom's many, many, many comic book appearances, he's shown up in a lot of different media, some of which has absolutely nothing to do with the Fantastic Four- the early 80s Spider-Man cartoon, the 90s X-Men cartoon, 90s Spider-Man cartoon, Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes and Avengers Assemble both...

Was Doom really on the 90s X-men cartoon? I have absolutely no memory of that.

[Peelee]

• Fantastic Four - Sounds like you stopped watching cartoons too soon

Nah, I kept watching cartoons. Still do, even after the peak of television.

• Doctor Doom - Bit surprised by this one- even discounting Doctor Doom's many, many, many comic book appearances, he's shown up in a lot of different media, some of which has absolutely nothing to do with the Fantastic Four- the early 80s Spider-Man cartoon, the 90s X-Men cartoon, 90s Spider-Man cartoon, Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes and Avengers Assemble both...

I loved 90's Spider-Man and enjoyed the 90's X-Men enough. Don't ever remember Doctor Doom in either of those, but I didn't see all the episodes either.

• Galactus - Galactus and the Silver Surfer first appeared in the Fantastic Four comics way back in the day, and also have at least a handful of media appearances- many of the same shows as Doctor Doom, actually.

Same, don't remember Galactus in either of those shows I watched. Maybe I caught the Silver Surfer in one of those? I don't know how I knew of him back then but I did know of him. Never saw the F4 movie with him, but he was in the title, so that was some exposure.Which, again, I'm assuming is due to buying the rights for cheap.

• Annihilus - Relegated to comic-book nerds, mostly, but he was at the heart of one of Marvel's huge crossovers a couple of years ago- "The Annihilation Event".

Was the Annihilation Event the Thanos snap thing? Or was the AE in the comics?

• The Skrull Empire - Yup, they were the oppressed minority in the Captain Marvel movie. Also shown up in more than a few places, such as a bunch of the shows mentioned under Doctor Doom, and had their own major crossover storyline a while ago- the "Secret Invasion".

[*]Ronan the Accuser - As noted, the primary antagonist in the Guardians of the Galaxy movie... and for that matter, the Captain Marvel movie. Maybe the people who complain that Marvel has trouble making memorable villains have a point...[/LIST]

I should remind that after the first Avengers I mostly checked out of the MCU. I think I did see GotG, but it was mostly pretty unimpressive to me (same as the first Avengers, in fact), so it's not surprising I don't remember him. I am surprised that apparently others don't as well, and that the "unmemorable villains" is a complaint against them, given how popular all those movies were.

• Terrax the Tamer - Think 'tamer' as a verb, not an adjective, as in 'one who tames things'. In comics, at least, he's one of these 'powerful enough to look challenging while not so powerful that people call hax when you beat hiim' villains that jobs to a lot of new heroes and teams. Dunno if 'popular' is the right word, but 'frequently-appearing-jobber' is a bit of a mouthful.

I know, I was just going for a joke to avoid a second "who" or "you're making names up."

In any event, the point of that list was for me, a guy who's not all that big into superhero movies (especially the MCU) to chime in on how well known those listed villains were compared to the Fantastic Four. I haven't seen any of the F4 movies, but they had a lot, all of which featured their name in the title, so I'd be amazed if their villains are more well-known than they themselves are.

[GloatingSwine]

Was the Annihilation Event the Thanos snap thing? Or was the AE in the comics?

Nah, Annihilation was much more recent than that, and it was mostly stuff that happened in space with the Kree, Skrulls, Guardians and Nova Corps.

All the earth heroes were busy with Civil War at the time.

[Lethologica]

Mostly because "It's him, that one, thingy" doesn't really count as recognition.

Though "can name the character from a picture" would count.

Which is...what I suggested? Although I think adequately descriptive recognition can be had without the name, the point was to give people something to recognize besides a name, not to remove names from the process entirely. After all, "it's him, that one thingy" could easily be a response to the name as well.

[Willie the Duck]

The original post refers to:


My question was why name recognition is the chosen metric, as opposed to other forms of recognition.

You quoted me talking to other people discussing Wolverine vs. Robin in a top 10 list. That list was produced in reference to name recognition. We can absolutely discuss other forms of recognition, and it would definitely be pertinent to the overall thread topic. However, the side tangent about whether Robin or Wolverine is supposed to be higher on a given list should not change what is being measured mid-stream (or at least people should be given a chance to change their positions, if we are changing the measurement metric).

[Prime32]

Was Doom really on the 90s X-men cartoon? I have absolutely no memory of that.

He was in the 90s Incredible Hulk series. Possibly tied in to She-Hulk's origins.

Same, don't remember Galactus in either of those shows I watched. Maybe I caught the Silver Surfer in one of those? I don't know how I knew of him back then but I did know of him. Never saw the F4 movie with him, but he was in the title, so that was some exposure.Which, again, I'm assuming is due to buying the rights for cheap.

Silver Surfer had his own 90s series, and Galactus wasn't in every episode. It also had Thanos, the Watchers, Ego the Living Planet, and Beta-Ray Bill (though the latter was just someone's avatar on a planet of VR addicts).

[TeChameleon]

Same, don't remember Galactus in either of those shows I watched. Maybe I caught the Silver Surfer in one of those? I don't know how I knew of him back then but I did know of him. Never saw the F4 movie with him, but he was in the title, so that was some exposure.Which, again, I'm assuming is due to buying the rights for cheap.

Just wanted to point out that Galactus and the Silver Surfer almost certainly came with the Fantastic Four rights, not separately- they had their origins in the FF just as much as Doctor Doom did.

In any event, the point of that list was for me, a guy who's not all that big into superhero movies (especially the MCU) to chime in on how well known those listed villains were compared to the Fantastic Four. I haven't seen any of the F4 movies, but they had a lot, all of which featured their name in the title, so I'd be amazed if their villains are more well-known than they themselves are.

Fair enough, although I'm not sure how much recognition as 'those blue-tights geeks with a bunch of crappy movies' counts for. Also, Fan4stic is still a mind-bogglingly terrible name for a movie.

[Lethologica]

You quoted me talking to other people discussing Wolverine vs. Robin in a top 10 list. That list was produced in reference to name recognition. We can absolutely discuss other forms of recognition, and it would definitely be pertinent to the overall thread topic. However, the side tangent about whether Robin or Wolverine is supposed to be higher on a given list should not change what is being measured mid-stream (or at least people should be given a chance to change their positions, if we are changing the measurement metric).

When asked why the scope was limited to name recognition, you first cited "the question asked" and referenced the post which asked the question. I used your own citation to show that this was incorrect, that that post cites recognition generally without specifying names (or using the word 'name' once, for that matter). So now you claim (unless I misunderstand you) that what matters is the post that made the list. But that post doesn't offer any statements about what was being measured or how to define recognition. It only provides a list in response to the initial question. So this new claim is not correct either.

Also, you suggest that I am not giving people a chance to change their positions, "if we are changing the measurement metric." But I only just now suggested the change - not even that - I only just now questioned name recognition as the metric. Not only have I left plenty of room for people to change their position, the metric has not even been changed yet, so I haven't had a chance to not let people change their positions.

Moreover, I don't know how much more reserved you could expect me to be. On the concrete matter of including Wolverine or Robin, I didn't even say Wolverine should be on the list over Robin, I said he challenges Robin for the spot, while noting Robin's advantages in many areas. I asked why name recognition was the exclusive metric, but didn't dismiss it as a metric, or assert that my own was better. I didn't accuse people preemptively (or at all) of having bad opinions based on my metric (or any metric). Just what do you want from me?

Honestly, I care a lot less about superhero rankings or recognition metrics than I do about earnest discussion. If you'd made any sort of argument for why name recognition should be the metric, I probably would have just nodded and moved on. Instead, I feel that you are being dismissive of my opinion and my suggestion based on, at best, some careless statements about the nature of the discussion, while implying that I am some kind of aggressor. And I'm not sure why that is, but I would like to reiterate that I am only suggesting consideration of other types of recognition alongside name recognition.

[Willie the Duck]

When asked why the scope was limited to name recognition, you first cited "the question asked" and referenced the post which asked the question. I used your own citation to show that this was incorrect, that that post cites recognition generally without specifying names (or using the word 'name' once, for that matter). So now you claim (unless I misunderstand you) that what matters is the post that made the list. But that post doesn't offer any statements about what was being measured or how to define recognition. It only provides a list in response to the initial question. So this new claim is not correct either.

Looking back, you are correct. I read, "who people recognize today" and imputed name recognition into it without realizing it. That was my mistake that I continued to make without realizing it. Thank you for pointing it out, as I did not realize the error.

Honestly, I care a lot less about superhero rankings or recognition metrics than I do about earnest discussion. If you'd made any sort of argument for why name recognition should be the metric, I probably would have just nodded and moved on. Instead, I feel that you are being dismissive of my opinion and my suggestion based on, at best, some careless statements about the nature of the discussion, while implying that I am some kind of aggressor. And I'm not sure why that is, but I would like to reiterate that I am only suggesting consideration of other types of recognition alongside name recognition.

Here you are imputing a lot of assumptions onto my behavior not evidenced by what I stated. I made no statement whatsoever regarding aggressor status. Nor was I dismissive in any way. I even stated that we could discuss literally any other aspect of character fame anyone wanted to, only that any given list would still be reference to whatever metric we started with (about which I was wrong, as discussed above). So the answer to 'why that is,' is 'it wasn't.' We both thought the other had gotten lost in the conversational weeds, and in the end, you were the one who was correct in that regard. However, that does not mean I was calling you some kind of aggressor.

Silver Surfer had his own 90s series

Wow. I have no recollection of that. Mind you, it is the sweet spot between when I stopped watching children's programming block cartoons and when I started caring for kids who did, but I would have thought I would have caught it through cultural osmosis. Anyone know if it was any good? Worth going on a lookback list?

[Tyndmyr]

Looking back, you are correct. I read, "who people recognize today" and imputed name recognition into it without realizing it. That was my mistake that I continued to make without realizing it. Thank you for pointing it out, as I did not realize the error.

If it helps, I was sort of thinking of name recognition when I wrote that, but I suppose that's not the only kind of recognition. If anything, it might be interesting to discuss characters who are visually recognisable, but who do not enjoy name-recognition. Ronan definitely qualifies as this, while, say, Maelkith probably has neither.

[Willie the Duck]

If it helps, I was sort of thinking of name recognition when I wrote that, but I suppose that's not the only kind of recognition. If anything, it might be interesting to discuss characters who are visually recognisable, but who do not enjoy name-recognition. Ronan definitely qualifies as this, while, say, Maelkith probably has neither.

I mean, the issue was I mentally read name recognition into it, and then did that thing where you mentally skip over blocks of text you're sure you've read until someone says, effective, 'no, go reread that, it doesn't say that.' This is something about which I keep trying to warn my employees (who otherwise will occasionally very very competently code a wonderful solution to a problem other than the one with which we've been tasked), so it's either apropos or sad that I make it.

Regardless, yes, visual recognition is certainly another way to do this. Particularly if we're trying to capture the 'non-nerd who has still seen/taken a kid to/bought toys as presents' for various comic book movies. I certainly do think switching between names and visuals will shake up the rankings (although Robin probably is pretty high there too). One thing that might do is increase the amount of Deadpool-Spiderman (/Spawn, depending on prominence of cape) confluence.

[Darth Credence]

Wow. I have no recollection of that [Silver Surfer cartoon]. Mind you, it is the sweet spot between when I stopped watching children's programming block cartoons and when I started caring for kids who did, but I would have thought I would have caught it through cultural osmosis. Anyone know if it was any good? Worth going on a lookback list?

I haven't seen it, but I have noticed that it is available on Disney+ if you are looking to watch.

[Mordar]

If it helps, I was sort of thinking of name recognition when I wrote that, but I suppose that's not the only kind of recognition. If anything, it might be interesting to discuss characters who are visually recognisable, but who do not enjoy name-recognition. Ronan definitely qualifies as this, while, say, Maelkith probably has neither.

As was I, but if I had say a collection of 25 or so trading cards/head shots/artwork to show people and they said "He's that guy from Guardians of the Galaxy that Chris Pratt tries to have a dance-off with" I'd probably take that as an acceptable answer for Ronan.

The problem I have is thinking of what pictures I would use for say, the X-Men, as they were not given their costumes in the films. I would much prefer to use comic book art and for most of the mainstream DC and MCU characters that would be fine...but some films shied away from costumes for some stupid reason or the other.

- M

[TeChameleon]

Wow. I have no recollection of that. Mind you, it is the sweet spot between when I stopped watching children's programming block cartoons and when I started caring for kids who did, but I would have thought I would have caught it through cultural osmosis. Anyone know if it was any good? Worth going on a lookback list?

Hmm... my extremely suspect memory is trying to tell me it was kind of awful, but I don't have any clear memory of actually watching the thing, so I'm really not sure. There were definitely a few duds in the 90s Animated-Marvel-verse. If you're in a superhero cartoon kind of mood, Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes is definitely worth a watch, at least for the first season and a half (at which point they changed showrunners and writers and the quality sorta tanked...).

[Kareeah_Indaga]

In response to the original question...I had to Google ‘whose symbol is that at the end of Infinity War’ and I wouldn’t know of her at all if not for the MCU. The same is not true of Daredevil, Morbius, Captain America, the Beyonder, Silvermane...and Moon Knight and Speedball. Until the media attention from the MCU movie I was also unaware the she was the source of Rogue’s flight and strength powers despite having seen several X-Men cartoons. Not sure how that happened.

[Peelee]

In response to the original question...I had to Google ‘whose symbol is that at the end of Infinity War’ and I wouldn’t know of her at all if not for the MCU. The same is not true of ... Morbius, the Beyonder, Silvermane...and Moon Knight

Who?

and Speedball.

Ok that one you're making up. Ain't no hero named "cocaine and heroine".

Until the media attention from the MCU movie I was also unaware the she was the source of Rogue’s flight and strength powers despite having seen several X-Men cartoons. Not sure how that happened.

Huh I was unaware of that until just now.

[GloatingSwine]

Ok that one you're making up. Ain't no hero named "cocaine and heroine".

No, he's called Snowflame. And yes, he literally gets superpowers from taking cocaine.

[Peelee]

No, he's called Snowflame. And yes, he literally gets superpowers from taking cocaine.

Note to self, read more comics. Because that's hilarious.

[The Glyphstone]

Speedball is actually a completely different character, which is the best part.