Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

[Zevox]

It wasn't even Boomsday cards that got changed though. It was stuff like Power Word Shield no longer drawing a card, or Holy Smith dealing 3 damage instead of 2. The puzzles were so specific that these micro changes invalidated the solution.

Well, yeah, they almost always did more nerfing to Classic cards than to expansion ones. That wasn't new either .

Edit: Okay, so it does look like at least some of the Boomsday puzzles are still broken (final puzzle of the first boss on the second row). Just came across one where Holy Smite doing 3 damage instead of 2 seems to be preventing me from getting the solution, because it's clear what the solution would be if it dealt 2, but I can't seem to fine one with it doing 3.

Also, I had one just kind of refuse to load on me - the third boss of the first row just doesn't spawn the cards or minions for its fourth puzzle. I have to close the game entirely to even leave the screen, it gets completely stuck. Damn it, Blizzard...

[The Glyphstone]

So Quillboar are now in Battlegrounds. And they seem...really, really powerful. Bristleback Brute and Bonker in particular are just nuts in how fast they can grow.

[Zevox]

So Quillboar are now in Battlegrounds. And they seem...really, really powerful. Bristleback Brute and Bonker in particular are just nuts in how fast they can grow.

I played just a couple of games with them today, and yeah, already agree. They seem far more worrisome than any of the other new tribes did when they launched. Instead of having internal synergies to make them work, they just get to pass out buffs to whoever as they please, but get extra bonuses on top when used together. Often major ones, like gaining divine shield, or getting a much bigger buff.

And their tavern 6 minions when used together are just crazy: one automatically plays a blood gem on all of your minions at the end of the turn, and the other causes all of your blood gems to give an extra +1/+1. So having both at once is +2/+2 to everything, automatically, plus triggers all of the bonus effects your Quillboar get from having Blood Gems played on them. Have two/a golden of either bumps that up substantially too - having both golden means two gems to everything, each giving +3/+3 and triggering all bonus effects. And even without the one that makes the gems stronger, one or two of that "blood gem to everything at the end of your turn" one is already nuts alongside the taunt one whose synergy is that it gains +1/+1 for each blood gem played on any other Quillboar - and that's a low tavern tier one.

Did I mention the tavern 3 2/5 that automatically plays a blood gem on each adjacent minion if they're Quillboar? Because if you have two other Quillboar, it's basically better Iron Sensei. Also, that windfury one that gives you a blood gem every time it attacks is a pretty big deal too...

Yeah, I think nerfs are going to be happening, and it probably won't even take all that long. These guys just feel strong at almost all stages of the game. Maybe not the very earliest few turns, but start finding their synergy stuff on tavern 2 and 3, and they can certainly get going and be a threat faster than most other tribes, and they've got a lot more late game power than the other fast tribes. Maybe (and I emphasize maybe, I'm not sure) a full Kalecgos + Nadina Dragons team will still defeat them in the late-game, or possibly a strong enough Elementals high-roll, but most other things feel like they're going to seriously struggle to compete - and those will struggle not to die before the late-game if something as strong in the mid and late game as Quillboar are around.

[Hamste]

My main problem with them is their divine shields. Specifically tough tusk and Bristleback knight. I'm cool with a build that needs to either combine in other minions with divine shield or deal with poison somehow but having a minion group that is high growth and divine shields seems brutal even if they have no other effects. For example dragons late game are high growth but they have only one minion with divine shield or a tier 6 minion that has to die to give it. Quillboars just seem like better dragons to be honest when instead I would rather them be a mixed comp with other minions that are better to buff.

Though I am curious how Voljin and Necrolyte interact. Can you destroy your own minion with it by putting a bunch of gems on a minion, exchanging the stats with Voljin's power then steal the stats with the Necrolyte. What happens? I believe these are the first two minutes who can lower stats so interesting to see what happens.

[Psionic Dog]

The divine shield's aren't much of a problem: they seem to be fair and in line with Mech divine shield options.

My complaint is the Quillboars are all objectively a tiny bit better than the existing tribes, but worst of all is the Dynamic Duo.

Bannerboar is like iron sensi with +3 health: not too unreasonably, but objectively better.

The brute scales faster and a little more consistently than the Hangry Dragon. Not too unreasonable, but again objectively better.

Dynamic Duo... is just broken. It is easier to scale than a Bigfernal and comes with decent starting stats. It needs to get nerfed up to Tavern Tier-5.

[Divayth Fyr]

And their tavern 6 minions when used together are just crazy: one automatically plays a blood gem on all of your minions at the end of the turn, and the other causes all of your blood gems to give an extra +1/+1.

The latter one is actually Tavern 5 - the other Tavern 6 Quillboar gives you a blood gem for every 3 gold you spend in the Tavern (2 if golden). Which only makes it easier to golden up...

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, Quillboar are going to get nerfed so hard. I just took 1st in a match where 6 people were all forcing Quillboar, it was absurd. The only exception was Chenvalla Elementals, and their Garr got demolished.

[Seerow]

Yeah, Quillboar are going to get nerfed so hard. I just took 1st in a match where 6 people were all forcing Quillboar, it was absurd. The only exception was Chenvalla Elementals, and their Garr got demolished.

I am sure they're going to get nerfed, patch is coming tomorrow. But I had a spectacular game the other day where I took a player who was just defeating me away from getting spicy pretzel mustard with a high roll quillboar board, and turned it around on him with dragons.

[Rynjin]

Yeah...I'm not a real Battlegrounds connoisseur, but my forays into trying out the new patch led me to believe that Quillboars obsoleted literally every other tribe...and also Menagerie.

[Zevox]

Yeah...I'm not a real Battlegrounds connoisseur, but my forays into trying out the new patch led me to believe that Quillboars obsoleted literally every other tribe...and also Menagerie.

Well, not quite - from what I can tell, Dragons are still the kings of the endgame, if you can get the high-roll necessary to really get them going (early Kalecgos, preferably multiple of him, and a Nadina or two for your final fights). Problem being that's no easier to do than it ever was, of course. And as far as Menagerie goes they've actually made it better than it's been in a long time, since one of their tier 5 units is basically a better Lightfang as long as you have a steady supply of Blood Gems to feed it (still don't know most of the names, but it's a 3/6 Quillboar with the effect of giving +1/+1 to a friendly minion of every type each time you play a Blood Gem on it). Still, barring a serious high-roll or the occasional oddity (i.e. play George and get poisonous Murlocs), the game has mostly become full Quillboars vs Quillboar-based Menagerie at this point, so yeah, they obviously need a nerf.

I'd definitely say move the Great Boar (the one that makes Blood Gems give an extra +1/+1) up to tavern 6. I actually assumed it was tavern 6 when I first saw it day 1, and was shocked to see it was only tavern 5 later. How the heck does a minion with that kind of effect not end up on tavern 6? Beyond that, I don't know, there's a lot of possibilities for how to nerf them, and I'm not sure which would be the most effective ways to do it.

I am definitely disappointed in Blizzard's quality control on this one though, this faction is clearly overpowered and should not have launched like this. They've been pretty good at not doing things like that in Battlegrounds so far: Dragons and Pirates were underpowered at launch, and while they did nerf Elementals after their release, I think the only change they really needed was moving Lil' Rag to tier 6, which I'd argue is borne out by the fact that many of their other nerfs have since been reverted (I think the only one that hasn't is the Genie's reduced starting stats), plus they got a buff to Majordomo to push him into usability. Quillboars meanwhile I think need more than just moving Great Boar up a tier, they're just too good all around, far more so than Elementals ever were.

[Rynjin]

The 3/6 guy is what I meant by "obsoleteing Menagerie", though that was probably poor wording. My main meaning is more "even Menagerie is incentivized to keep 2/3 (the Windfury+Add a Blood Gem guy, maybe Dynamic Duo, and the 3/6) Quillboars on the squad".

[Zevox]

The 3/6 guy is what I meant by "obsoleteing Menagerie", though that was probably poor wording. My main meaning is more "even Menagerie is incentivized to keep 2/3 (the Windfury+Add a Blood Gem guy, maybe Dynamic Duo, and the 3/6) Quillboars on the squad".

True, although personally I rather like the idea of including explicit synergy with Menagerie on some minions from specific factions. It's overtuned at the moment, though I think that's more because Quillboars themselves are, since Menagerie hasn't exactly been one of the top builds even after they un-nerfed Lightfang Enforcer. I don't know, I'd rather see things like Dynamic Duo, Great Boar, or Bannerboar get hit than the menagerie guy, but maybe it's just hard to tell that he's actually too potent too when everything else in the faction also looks so strong. Or maybe they could just hit his stats? It is rather silly that he has so much higher stats than Lightfang despite the fact that, with the right support, he can definitely give more scaling than Lightfang per turn.

[The Glyphstone]

And there we have it. Pretty much every Quillboar above tier 2 got a nerf. Dynamic Duo is now 3/4 baseline. Banner-Herald lost 1 health, Bonker lost 1 attack. Brute gets +2/+2 instead of +3/+3. Charlga and Ground Stompers don't buff themselves anymore.

[otakuryoga]

And there we have it. Pretty much every Quillboar above tier 2 got a nerf. Dynamic Duo is now 3/4 baseline. Banner-Herald lost 1 health, Bonker lost 1 attack. Brute gets +2/+2 instead of +3/+3. Charlga and Ground Stompers don't buff themselves anymore.

duo nerf..meh..he scales so hard(assuming you have steady gem supply) it barely matters
banner boar losing a health is no big deal..their work is done in the tavern not in battle
attack on bonker is irrelevant..taking a point of health would have been far more impactful..he does his job by attacking 2-3 times a match
brute feels about right
charlga..about the same as banner boar..but not buffing self will slow the insanity of late duos

have they put quillboars into rotation? or are they still in every match?

[Zevox]

Quillboar nerfs mostly being to stats does make me question just how much impact they'll have, since their biggest advantage is their scaling, for sure. And I am dumbfounded that Great Boar was not moved up to tavern 6. But I haven't played post-nerfs as yet, so can't speak from experience as to the impact. Maybe weakening them early makes them enough of a risk to make their late-game payoff seem more reasonable?

(Also, I'm irrationally slightly annoyed that one of the nerfs was Charlga no longer buffing itself. I can't see that making much difference, and I kinda liked that he was the only auto-scaling engine minion who also self-buffed.)

have they put quillboars into rotation? or are they still in every match?

They're in every match until the next major update. That's how things always work after a new faction release. So probably a couple of months, if my memory of the past releases isn't failing me.

[The Glyphstone]

The two matches I played post nerf still had Quillboar comps in all of the top 4. So not much has changed.

[otakuryoga]

as said above its the scaling that makes boars such an autopick tribe
if they want to slow that down they should have took health instead of attack from Bonker
or limit his gem generation only to 1st attack

i would not be shocked to see them move bannerboar up to t4
though what i think would be a good solution is to make her like the cleaving fire elemental
normal one gives a gem to right or left randomly-- golden can give a gem on both sides

[Rodin]

Worth noting that Bonker also lost the ability to get 4 Blood Gems in a turn when Golden. That said, the results of the nerfs make it apparent that only nerfing the golden version was insufficient.

Moving a few minions up a tier might be the fix. Agamaggan to 6, move Bonker to 5 and restore the Golden double dip to reflect the higher rarirty of Tier 5 minions. That makes it so Quilboars are weaker in the midgame while still being an extremely powerful late game force if they can survive that long. If they're too weak in the midgame maybe drop the stats of the Knight and move him to Tier 4 to reward going in on Blood Gems to buff him up to a level that helps them survive.

[zlefin]

Been playing a lot of the Duels mode lately; starting to get a bit tired/frustrated of it though. A lot of the matches come down to luck: who draws more of their BS cards; and who got better luck in their card pools. A number of deck plans are based off a certain mechanic, and how many card buckets you get that support that make a huge difference in how well the deck runs. eg the Discard based deck, sometimes I played one and just didn't get offered card buckets that support discard, so the deck did poorly.

It reminds me of one of the downsides of playing vs another person; you can't just win, when you win someone else loses, so someone has to lose. If you're playing a Dungeon run and you get a super awesome deck, then you win and that's fun; but in Duels if you do that then someone has to face a super-unfair deck that they may find unfun.

I'm also finding the degree of 'synergy focus' to be too high; that is the effect on a card of whether or not it synergizes with your deck is so great as to overshadow everything else about the card. Like if I build a battlecry based deck, I often end up with battlecries cost 1 less and activate twice. An effect that powerful means the value of a card depends less on the inherent utility of the card or whether it in some larger sense 'fits' my deck or its curve; the value of a card mostly comes down to 'does it have battlecry or not'. Or the Warrior defensive deck; I got unlocked potential (which can be very silly) and the reduce taunt costs by 2. So it basically turns every suitable card into a special grade card; like a 7/7 taunt for 2. Regular cards that fit the 'theme' end up almost as good as a treasure card.

[otakuryoga]

Been playing a lot of the Duels mode lately; starting to get a bit tired/frustrated of it though. A lot of the matches come down to luck: who draws more of their BS cards; and who got better luck in their card pools. A number of deck plans are based off a certain mechanic, and how many card buckets you get that support that make a huge difference in how well the deck runs. eg the Discard based deck, sometimes I played one and just didn't get offered card buckets that support discard, so the deck did poorly.

It reminds me of one of the downsides of playing vs another person; you can't just win, when you win someone else loses, so someone has to lose. If you're playing a Dungeon run and you get a super awesome deck, then you win and that's fun; but in Duels if you do that then someone has to face a super-unfair deck that they may find unfun.

I'm also finding the degree of 'synergy focus' to be too high; that is the effect on a card of whether or not it synergizes with your deck is so great as to overshadow everything else about the card. Like if I build a battlecry based deck, I often end up with battlecries cost 1 less and activate twice. An effect that powerful means the value of a card depends less on the inherent utility of the card or whether it in some larger sense 'fits' my deck or its curve; the value of a card mostly comes down to 'does it have battlecry or not'. Or the Warrior defensive deck; I got unlocked potential (which can be very silly) and the reduce taunt costs by 2. So it basically turns every suitable card into a special grade card; like a 7/7 taunt for 2. Regular cards that fit the 'theme' end up almost as good as a treasure card.

what i find silly is getting offered a C'thun bucket
without C'thun in it
when i am not playing old C'thun

if the bucket had C'thun it could possibly be worth considering

or the opposite.. playing C'thun and never getting offered a C'thun bucket
--------

as far as silly op decks i recently ran into a nearly 100% guarantee 12 win deck
Demon Hunter with call the illidari power
1st treasure was potion of sparking.. rush minions cleave
3rd treasure was band of bees.. minions under 2cost(or 2 and under?) have poison

any minions you put out die to the hero power.. period
you can fill your board..and 6 of them die to the hero power (barring taunts on the edges only)

[Kish]

(Also, I'm irrationally slightly annoyed that one of the nerfs was Charlga no longer buffing itself. I can't see that making much difference, and I kinda liked that he was the only auto-scaling engine minion who also self-buffed.)

Charlga is female.

[zlefin]

what i find silly is getting offered a C'thun bucket
without C'thun in it
when i am not playing old C'thun

if the bucket had C'thun it could possibly be worth considering

or the opposite.. playing C'thun and never getting offered a C'thun bucket
--------

as far as silly op decks i recently ran into a nearly 100% guarantee 12 win deck
Demon Hunter with call the illidari power
1st treasure was potion of sparking.. rush minions cleave
3rd treasure was band of bees.. minions under 2cost(or 2 and under?) have poison

any minions you put out die to the hero power.. period
you can fill your board..and 6 of them die to the hero power (barring taunts on the edges only)

that hasn't happened to me much, but it's indeed annoying when it does. It's annoying how rare c'thun itself seems to be. When I'm playing an old c'thun deck, in a way it kinda gets weaker over time if I've only got just one c'thun; the decks end up 30+ cards later on, and without drawing a c'thun I miss out on a lot of the point of the deck.

That definitely sounds like an obnoxious combo. There's a bunch of rare comboes that let people steamroll because of the rare treasures they let stay in, rather than simply removing them entirely. There's still a fair number of decks it might lose to, depending on what else is in the deck for value generation. In particular I see far too many spell-Illucia decks, which have few/no creatures and rely on the passive, plus masses of removal and draw/filtering. More generally speaking, there's a fair number of decks which rely less on creatures and have a lot of reach (that is ways to damage a player other than minion attacks), especially at the higher win matchups where you face tough decks. They're really quite annoying; one of the problems when you play Duels more is that, like constructed, there's a few 'best' decks which show up a lot and it gets kinda annoying/repetitive. I wish there was a way for it to measure a decks 'typicalness' and let you more often face interesting/different decks if you have one of your own. It's a bit sad that trying out an interesting idea often results in just getting steamrolled by the standard optimized builds; especially in the early matches where you have a lot of control over what's in your deck.

They could definitely use some rebalancing on the passive treasures; there's some stark differences between them, and a number that are weak because they just don't work with enough cards/buckets. The more cards in your deck a treasure can effect makes a big difference.

[The Glyphstone]

So with Paladin getting dragged out into the alley and beaten with the nerf bat, what other midrange or control decks are floating around the ladder right now? I need something new to get my obligated 5 wins/month with.

[Geno9999]

So with Paladin getting dragged out into the alley and beaten with the nerf bat, what other midrange or control decks are floating around the ladder right now? I need something new to get my obligated 5 wins/month with.

Elemental Shaman is looking good now, with their Dungeoneer being Swindle on a body. You can either go board/minion-centric, or Two-Punch Man/Doomhammer route, both having pretty good winrates.

Deathrattle Demon Hunter had been floating about in low Tier 2 before, but with N'zoth being 1 mana cheaper, and the miniset adding two more 3-drop Deathrattles, it's become a rather powerful deck.
I have a somewhat budget friendlier list, mostly because I don't have N'zoth, so it leans slightly more towards aggro with Fury and Sigil of Summoning.

Spoiler: DR DH

Show

### Angry Boars
# Class: Demon Hunter
# Format: Standard
# Year of the Gryphon
#
# 2x (1) Fury (Rank 1)
# 2x (1) Illidari Studies
# 2x (1) Tuskpiercer
# 2x (2) Razorboar
# 2x (2) Sigil of Summoning
# 2x (3) Devouring Ectoplasm
# 2x (3) Felrattler
# 2x (3) Felsteel Executioner
# 1x (3) Mankrik
# 2x (3) Razorfen Beastmaster
# 2x (4) Fishy Flyer
# 1x (4) Kurtrus Ashfallen
# 2x (4) Renowned Performer
# 1x (5) Taelan Fordring
# 2x (6) Skull of Gul'dan
# 1x (7) Death Speaker Blackthorn
# 2x (8) Illidari Inquisitor
#
AAECAaarBAS/7QOc7gPn8AOoigQN2cYDh9QDyd0D194D8+MDu+0DvO0D/e0DoO4DqO8Dr+8DwvEDgIUEAA==
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone

[The Glyphstone]

I crafted Fireheart for the Elemental Shaman, since that would be the cheapest deck option. Seems to flow decently well, beating two mirror match Shamans and three hand-buff aggro hunters, but losing to spell Druid.

[zlefin]

The auto deckbuilder is quite nice. I had some play as quests to do, and was feeling undecided about what to make; and I didn't want to use my older deck for that hero as it hadn't been updated in awhile. So I did something I've done before at times, just pick the hero and use the "finish my deck" option without having picked anything. It just makes me a deck, and it often includes some good synergy packages. The decks it makes are quite decent (I usually only play ladder for the 5 wins/week, so the decks are ok but nothing truly optimized I face, at least not that often). It's just kinda fun playing a 'whatever reasonable deck it gives you' deck. At least as long as you have a solid card pool it give syou something good.

[otakuryoga]

well, surprise surprise, they are unable to start a game or make/change decks atm

mixed bag on my packs/bundles
bad: got both legendaries that you get diamond of on reward track..so thats 2 wasted legendaries 8(
good: two golden questlines(paladin and warlock)((and i re-iterate how bleeping stoopid it is that they don't show the reward when you look at a quest in your collection tab))

[Seerow]

bad: got both legendaries that you get diamond of on reward track..so thats 2 wasted legendaries 8(

You only get one diamond from the Reward track (Varian), Diamond Benedictus comes from getting a full collection (which requires a regular benedictus to qualify). There is a free regular Katrina Prestor from the rewards track though.



But if you pulled a legendary from a pack that you get for free, you can DE it for 100% dust value for next few days. I pulled a Golden Prestor and regular Varian, DEd them both for 4800 dust. They basically become wildcard "choose your own legendary" cards.

[zlefin]

I'm trying Arena some, which I haven't done much of in years.
I'm not enjoying it as much; it might just be because I'm losing. But it seems like it's more luck-based than it used to be. In particular, due to the games power-creep over time, it seems even more dependent on how many of the strong modern cards you're offered; especially given how some of hte modern bomb-level cards are just crazy.

[Rynjin]

New Paladin deck is a laugh and a half. Playing against some Priest who looks like he teched his deck specifically against mine. Down to my last 3 cards, Priest has removed like everything I've played the whole game. Broke my weapons, silenced all my handbuffing stuff (eg. Runthak, Fordragon). He's still at 30.

Unfortunately, he doesn't have quite enough juice to remove a 2/2 and a 3/2 from the board after I shoved the last of my stuff out last turn.

Conviction twice, 5/5 give Windfury minion in the middle. GG Priest, clocked for 34 out of nowhere.

Can't imagine how mad he must have been.

Giving Paladin access to Windfury was a mistake.