Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

[zlefin]

Probably it's because I just haven't played in so long that I'm playing weak opponents or something; and hence whatever I'm finding won't be representative.

One thing they really should change is to make it easier to see what your battle buddy will do at golden. Because it's not always obvious what they'd get, and there's a lot of heroes.

[Zevox]

So, we're almost a week since Buddies dropped, and I've been playing a lot. Some thoughts on where it feels like some of the heroes stand now:

Spoiler: Spoilered for space.

Show

Probably need nerfs: Bru'kan, Illidan.
- Bru'kan's hero power lets him easily dominate the early game, catapulting him to get his buddy quickly (especially since it also happens to be tavern 2), and his buddy is quite powerful, being among those that you may well keep the entire game. I feel like he's one of the few heroes that is probably going to be in such good shape by the time he hits tavern 4 that he'll just shrug, pay 10 gold to go to 5, and not have any issues, which is a big advantage at the moment. And Illidan, I would hope I needn't explain if you've ever seen his buddy, but if you haven't, it's absolutely busted with poisonous minions. Immunity for two attacks from the golden buddy, combined with existing ways to eke out more value from poison like Amalgadon's divine shield or a reborn on Maexna, can easily put him in a position where he'll kill half of his opponent's board with just one minion, and it's near-impossible to counter since only having a source of a lot of divine shields can protect you from it.

Weren't good, got a lot better: The Curator, Xyrella, Sindragosa, Y'shaarj, Zephrys.
- Each of these feels pretty strong to me now (the Curator and Zephrys especially, with Y'shaarj bringing up the rear) thanks to their buddies. The Curator's buddy gets huge easily, especially once tripled. Xyrella's does as well to an extent - though word of warning, probably don't want to try going Murlocs with Warleader during the early game if you're playing her, since the Warleader's attack buff messes up her buddy's buffs. Sindragosa still has his early game strength from the free buffs to frozen minions, but now he can also just get free minions from his buddy, with a +2/+1 buff, using his hero power - I even managed to keep mine around for most of the game once due to having Quillboars around to buff it with blood gems. Zephrys' ability to just pick and choose what he goldens with his buddy battlecry and hero power, while requiring a little finagling, is insanely potent. And Y'shaarj's buddy just dropping a big buff on everything he plays from his tavern tier lets him tavern up quickly quite well. All five of these have quickly become tempting to me whenever I see them.

Made out like a bandit: Cookie, Malygos.
- Cookie was already good enough not have armor before, and Malygos to have very little, and oh boy did they get very good buddies. Cookie's is especially so when Murlocs are in, since you can give it poison, but even if they're out you can potentially scale it in a menagerie build - and even if you end up needing to sell it, by the time you do it'll have given you so much value it's insane. Malygos' is even better, basically turning him into a much better version of Galakrond, held back only by his buddy not having an easy way to scale it. I wonder if these might end up needing nerfs, though at this point I'm at least less sure they do than I am for Illidan and Bru'kan.

Were good, still are: Rafaam, Jandice, Ysera, Galewing.
- All of these got buddies that help them in the mid-game, but you'll probably sell after tripling, if not sooner if you find yourself pressed for board space. Good, but not pushing them into potentially OP territory, I think.

Seems fine: Gallywix, Rakanishu, Tavish.
- Gallywix and Rakanishu weren't that good before, but they weren't terrible either, and their buddies are kind of the same. Gallywix's is nice for giving a big buff to select minions - obviously target cleave or divine shield minions with it if you can - but doesn't carry him up to top-tier status or anything, at least from what I've seen so far. And Rakanishu's is just a sold middle of the road buddy I feel, which fits with him feeling like a solid, middle of the road hero. Tavish is probably better than either of them, but mostly due to the Tarecgosa synergy. Without Dragons, he's probably at about their power level; with them, he's strong, but not one of the absolute best, and he has to worry about there being a Ysera in the game to gobble up all of the Tarecgosas he's seeking.

Were good, but their buddy isn't great, so probably net weaker now than before: Captain Hooktusk, Master Nguyen, George, Omu, Scabbs.
- Pretty straightforward here. Hooktusk and Nguyen are in a similar situation of getting more discover options from their buddy, which is kind of nice for a bit, but their buddy's stats suck and they're typeless and thus hard to scale, and really the extra discover options aren't that big of a help most of the time. I've struggled to justify even keeping them long enough to get the triple, personally. George's buddy isn't that bad if you're playing with Mechs and other minions that start with divine shield, but it's not doing that much to help him either I think. Omu's feels neutered by being a tavern 4 buddy to me; by the time it comes online, I struggle to justify keeping it around for more than a couple of turns due to board space issues and it being typeless and thus hard to scale. And Scabbs' buddy giving him copies of other heroes' buddies usually kind of sucks, since most other heroes' buddies are build around their hero power, and Scabbs obviously doesn't have that; plus it's a tier 4 buddy and thus takes forever to even get, and is typeless and hard to scale. Each of these I feel like will usually sell their buddies after having gotten just a little use out of them. Which isn't to say any of them are bad now, their hero powers are still just as good as ever, but not benefiting as much from the buddies probably slides them down the overall power scale of the game compared to other strong heroes who got better buddies.

Bad hero, bad buddy: Tess, Edwin.
- Like Scabbs, Tess' buddy is a typeless, tier 4 buddy that gives her copies of her opponents' buddies, which is often bad due to her not having their hero powers. Unlike Scabbs, she wasn't good to begin with. May be one of the bigger losers of this update. Edwin, meanwhile, got a buddy that scales... barely. It'll help him in the mid-game I guess, but ultimately it won't push his power level up much, and that power level is already at "eh, I guess he can throw decent buffs on cleave and divine shield minions?"

High-Risk, High Reward: Ragnaros
- I want to give a special mention to Rag, because his buddy can actually be very potent with the right builds. I pulled off a menagerie with it earlier that got insane scaling, because his buddy works with things like Lightfang and Charlga, not just his hero power. But if you don't get things like those and are just using it to double/triple his hero power, it'll be good for a while, but you'll probably need to sell it before the end, likely not long after tripling it. Still strong though. Honestly, at this point he feels mainly held back by how hard it is to activate his hero power. My first attempt to use him post-buddies I was near death before his hero power activated and so didn't last long after it finally did, and even on my more successful runs with him I still got his buddy (a tavern 4 one, mind you) before his hero power came online, and was taking a bit of a beating in the turns leading up to it finally happening. Still, if he gets a strong start and some other things that can benefit from his buddy, he could be very strong now, so he feels like a high-risk/high-reward hero at this point.

Finley
- Just an observation about our mulligan hero: his buddy, which gives him a copy of the buddy for the hero whose power he copied, is always a tavern 3 buddy. This means that he's best off aiming to take the power of a hero with a (good) tavern 4 buddy, since he'll get it earlier than the actual hero would have; while he's actually nerfing himself if he takes the power of a hero with a tavern 2 buddy, since he'll have to wait longer for it than the real hero would. Something to take into account with him. I actually think this probably makes him a bit worse on the net, since tavern 4 buddies strong enough to warrant being tavern 4 buddies seem kind of rare (I'd say Ragnaros and Kragg probably qualify, but I'm not sure if there are any others), while there seems to be plenty of good tavern 2 buddies. That's something that could always change in the future though.

Other heroes I either haven't played yet, or don't feel like I got a particularly good idea of how well they/their buddy were working out when I did. In particular I really wish the game would give me more chances to try Elise. I like the look of her buddy, but the one time I got to play her, I crashed and burned due to a poor start and bad mid-game luck.

Probably it's because I just haven't played in so long that I'm playing weak opponents or something; and hence whatever I'm finding won't be representative.

One thing they really should change is to make it easier to see what your battle buddy will do at golden. Because it's not always obvious what they'd get, and there's a lot of heroes.

What hero isn't it obvious with? In my experience, they're all obvious. Just double the stats and effect.

[The Glyphstone]

Looking at the list, Lich Bah'ziel looks insane:

Lich Baz'hial - Unearthed Underling. Whenever your hero would take damage, this minion gains +2/+2 instead. (upgrades to +4/+4 when golden)

Maybe not enough to make her a top tier, but free +1 gold every turn on a scaling buff is crazy. Though I guess being Tier 3 means the damage is already done that matters, she's most fragile in the early game.

[Rynjin]

Yeah. TBH I always though Baz'hial was pretty decent; I consistently get 1st with her. That's just gravy.

[Zevox]

Looking at the list, Lich Bah'ziel looks insane:



Maybe not enough to make her a top tier, but free +1 gold every turn on a scaling buff is crazy. Though I guess being Tier 3 means the damage is already done that matters, she's most fragile in the early game.

She's a lot better now, I think, but yeah, I'd guess likely still not a top tier hero. You're correct that she still takes self-damage in the early game, and honestly from my one game with her, I don't think her buddy will get all that big unless demons are in the game so that she can get Wrathweavers to also trigger it. And even with a Wrathweaver, mine at least didn't grow to the kind of crazy sizes that the Curator or Xyrella's can.

Also, something that's unintuitive but worth noting: if you have the demon that makes your hero immune on your board, the buddy's effect won't trigger. Since something else is stopping the damage. Took me a couple of turns to notice that when I was playing that game, which likely cost me in the long run. So it has a conflict with a demon that you'd normally probably want when playing mid-game demons, since it's good with the tokens.

[Joran]

She's a lot better now, I think, but yeah, I'd guess likely still not a top tier hero. You're correct that she still takes self-damage in the early game, and honestly from my one game with her, I don't think her buddy will get all that big unless demons are in the game so that she can get Wrathweavers to also trigger it. And even with a Wrathweaver, mine at least didn't grow to the kind of crazy sizes that the Curator or Xyrella's can.

Also, something that's unintuitive but worth noting: if you have the demon that makes your hero immune on your board, the buddy's effect won't trigger. Since something else is stopping the damage. Took me a couple of turns to notice that when I was playing that game, which likely cost me in the long run. So it has a conflict with a demon that you'd normally probably want when playing mid-game demons, since it's good with the tokens.

I think with Lich and Demons, the strat would be to just stay on tier 1 and gather Wrathweavers and play Demons and triple into Selfless Heroes. You do no damage to anyone, but you should outstat a ton of people.

Played two more games with Tempo Hero Powers: C'thun and Yogg.

After these games, I can definitely tell why people think this patch feels a bit stale. The buddies are cool, but the end game comps feel the same, especially divine shield murlocs, since no changes were made to minions. Tempo heroes + buddies makes it worse, since the buddy doesn't provide lasting value (or even an interesting direction). I guess next major patch, they'll mix up the minions.


C'Thun's: Tier 2 buddy, after a minion gains stats, give this minion +1/+1 until your next turn. Not a great buddy, but since it comes so early, it gives a good amount of stats for tempo, so gave me space to level and find a comp. I thought I was going Pirates (got two Salty Looters), but tripled into a SI:Fin and then rolled into a Brann, so did big poison murlocs and won. I leveled higher than I usually do with C'Thun (where I usually tried to stay on Tier 3, find Divine Shield and hero power on them), but buddy gave me enough tempo to level.

Yogg: Tier 3 Buddy (spin da wheel!)

Spoiler: Yoggs Wheel

Show

Yoggs Wheel (19%)
-Hp triggers an extra time rest of game
-3 random dark moon prizes
-minions +3/+3 and shuffle stats
-consume bobs tavern and refresh
-steal bobs tavern and refresh
-Rod of Roasting (5%) - Cast pyrobuff +4/+4 to all units until one hits your Bartender or hero

Standard curve and I got the minions +3/+3, which is among the strongest tempo Yogg buddy. Again, gave me the space to power level and find a comp (Malygos Dragons + a golden Mythrax). Final boss was a Squirrel Bomb Milicent, so as long as I killed the Baron, I outstated the bombs. Random Dark Moon Prizes wasn't great (got Double Attack, +5/+5 Taunt, and one other one I forgot) and the double hero wasn't great either.

Definitely need to keep the Tavern full to get full value out of the buddy.

Edit: Win with Lich King: Frogger Beasts.

Arfus is very cute, but very hard to use. Your other Reborn minions summon an extra copy after dying; golden gives you two. I did Frogger Beasts, but kept running out of space for my reborns. Lobby was low Elo, so nobody got Zapp.

[Zevox]

Found another good tavern 4 buddy: Flurgl's. "Battlecry: Transform minions in Bob's tavern into Murlocs of the same tavern tier." That last part is important, as for tavern 4+, there are only 1 or 2 Murlocs per tier. For tavern 4, it is only Primalfin Lookout - so today, I was able to use my first buddy from Flurgl to get a guaranteed golden Primalfin. For tavern 5, there is only Bagurgle and SI:Sefin. And for tavern 6, there is only Amalgadon.

Basically, these days, I think all that Flurgl will need to be guaranteed one of the top spots (barring abysmal luck) is going to be to fare decently in the early and mid game, and find a Bran. He'll be able to switch to Murlocs and get them going in no time with proper use of these buddies even if he doesn't start with them.

After these games, I can definitely tell why people think this patch feels a bit stale. The buddies are cool, but the end game comps feel the same, especially divine shield murlocs, since no changes were made to minions. Tempo heroes + buddies makes it worse, since the buddy doesn't provide lasting value (or even an interesting direction). I guess next major patch, they'll mix up the minions.

That's a perspective I can't understand at all. The buddies system adds so many new possibilities to try, I have no idea how it could ever be seen as "stale."

Then again, I'm also someone who doesn't like them to change things just for the sake of changing things. When there's a balance issue that needs addressing, or there's something they think they can do that will improve the game as a whole (like the armor system or buddies), cool. Swapping some minions out just so that there's a change? No, don't.

C'Thun's: Tier 2 buddy, after a minion gains stats, give this minion +1/+1 until your next turn. Not a great buddy, but since it comes so early, it gives a good amount of stats for tempo, so gave me space to level and find a comp. I thought I was going Pirates (got two Salty Looters), but tripled into a SI:Fin and then rolled into a Brann, so did big poison murlocs and won. I leveled higher than I usually do with C'Thun (where I usually tried to stay on Tier 3, find Divine Shield and hero power on them), but buddy gave me enough tempo to level.

I also played C'Thun today, to rather less success. Though I've never done too well with him - hitting 4th is usually about it. His buddy seems better than I initially thought, but that's not saying much, honestly. Don't think it'll push him into being much better than he already was.

Yogg: Tier 3 Buddy (spin da wheel!)

Spoiler: Yoggs Wheel

Show

Yoggs Wheel (19%)
-Hp triggers an extra time rest of game
-3 random dark moon prizes
-minions +3/+3 and shuffle stats
-consume bobs tavern and refresh
-steal bobs tavern and refresh
-Rod of Roasting (5%) - Cast pyrobuff +4/+4 to all units until one hits your Bartender or hero

Thank you for that - I tried to find a breakdown of everything the wheel does back when the mode first came out, and never did find one. (Why the hells can't Blizzard provide one on their own site when you view the buddy?)

All seems pretty good, which was my impression playing it a couple of times today. And the buddy is a Murloc, so you can potentially keep it around and use it, too. Though if you don't, not a huge deal, since with it being a battlecry buddy the only difference between goldening it and not is losing the discover of a tavern+1 minion. That said, it is a one-time effect, not something that'll catapult him in power and definitely be kept forever like the best buddies seem to be. He probably got a fair bit better, but is still only middling at best, is my guess.

Definitely need to keep the Tavern full to get full value out of the buddy.

Win with Lich King: Frogger Beasts.

Arfus is very cute, but very hard to use. Your other Reborn minions summon an extra copy after dying; golden gives you two. I did Frogger Beasts, but kept running out of space for my reborns. Lobby was low Elo, so nobody got Zapp.

I also played Lich King today, and seemed like I was on track to do the same, as I got practically handed all of the pieces... only to get beaten down by other people high-rolling even harder than I was. Still, yeah, that seems like the way that Lich King gets use out of his buddy. Without beasts in the pool, there's just too few reborns to benefit from it all that much (just Acolyte of C'Thun, Micro Mummy, and Bronze Warden), so in that case it probably becomes one of the buddies that eventually gets sold.

[Rynjin]

That's a perspective I can't understand at all. The buddies system adds so many new possibilities to try, I have no idea how it could ever be seen as "stale."

It's because so many Buddies don't actually change how you play, on top of many of the ones that do being very weak (eg. Edwin getting jebaited into actually trying to grow his Buddy instead of just treating it as an extra gold).

That last bit I think is the most important part. So many Buddies are just...an extra gold. They're barely worth putting into play.

[Zevox]

It's because so many Buddies don't actually change how you play, on top of many of the ones that do being very weak (eg. Edwin getting jebaited into actually trying to grow his Buddy instead of just treating it as an extra gold).

That last bit I think is the most important part. So many Buddies are just...an extra gold. They're barely worth putting into play.

There aren't any buddies that are that bad. Even ones like Scabbs, Edwin, or Aranna will use theirs for a little while in the mid-game, maybe even long enough to get them tripled if they're doing okay.

Also, Edwin seems like a terrible example for a buddy that would change how you play, since his just triggers off of buying minions. Honestly, most of the buddies that would change how you play seem to be the good ones, the ones that open up new avenues for how their heroes get stronger, like Xyrella, Y'shaarj, etc.

(Aside: had to look up "jebaited." Wasn't aware that Jebailey had become a meme. Kind of neat to see an FGC personality being referenced outside of fighting games though, I guess.)

[Joran]

That's a perspective I can't understand at all. The buddies system adds so many new possibilities to try, I have no idea how it could ever be seen as "stale."

Then again, I'm also someone who doesn't like them to change things just for the sake of changing things. When there's a balance issue that needs addressing, or there's something they think they can do that will improve the game as a whole (like the armor system or buddies), cool. Swapping some minions out just so that there's a change? No, don't.

As a primarily Spike type player (someone who finds the joy in winning and getting better at the game), I agree; I enjoy trying to figure out ways I can improve and having the same minions for awhile means that I can refine my play and get better.

For Timmys (someone who wants to make giant minions) or Johnnys (someone who wants to express creativity in the game), I can see how seeing Reborn Maxenna or Divine Shield Poisons taking out their 1000/1000 minion being annoying or how the best minion is a Divine Shield, Poison Amalgadon.

I also played Lich King today, and seemed like I was on track to do the same, as I got practically handed all of the pieces... only to get beaten down by other people high-rolling even harder than I was. Still, yeah, that seems like the way that Lich King gets use out of his buddy. Without beasts in the pool, there's just too few reborns to benefit from it all that much (just Acolyte of C'Thun, Micro Mummy, and Bronze Warden), so in that case it probably becomes one of the buddies that eventually gets sold.

I could see maybe in a Scallywag / Eliza Pirate build where you have the buddy instead of a Khadgar or Baron? Otherwise, the initial buddy is useful, I can see it useful in either giving tempo or if you get an Avenge minion some more value out of the Avenge, but yeah, seems like a difficult buddy to play with, since you need board space and it's difficult to generate that.

[Zevox]

As a primarily Spike type player (someone who finds the joy in winning and getting better at the game), I agree; I enjoy trying to figure out ways I can improve and having the same minions for awhile means that I can refine my play and get better.

For Timmys (someone who wants to make giant minions) or Johnnys (someone who wants to express creativity in the game), I can see how seeing Reborn Maxenna or Divine Shield Poisons taking out their 1000/1000 minion being annoying or how the best minion is a Divine Shield, Poison Amalgadon.

I don't know that my position at least has anything to do with those silly categories. I'd probably be considered primarily a "Timmy" myself - I'm just also someone who doesn't see change, in and of itself, as a desirable outcome. Change something when you have a good reason to believe the change will be for the better, absolutely. But doing so just for the sake of change itself, to "shake things up," I see as foolish - risking making something worse for no real reason.

Case in point, this update. There's an obvious reason to implement the buddy system: it adds a fresh new dynamic to the game, and gives them another way to balance heroes, something they've obviously struggled with. We can already see it bearing some fruit with heroes like The Curator, Xyrella, etc getting notably better thanks to it. On the flip side, there is not an obvious reason to increase the cost of tavern 5, nor did they give any rationale in the patch notes where it was announced, and in my opinion, that change is having only negative effects on the game.

I could see maybe in a Scallywag / Eliza Pirate build where you have the buddy instead of a Khadgar or Baron?

I suppose that could perhaps work. Although personally I hate that build and still wish they'd kill it somehow - that'd be a change for the better in my mind.

[Rynjin]

There aren't any buddies that are that bad. Even ones like Scabbs, Edwin, or Aranna will use theirs for a little while in the mid-game, maybe even long enough to get them tripled if they're doing okay.

Also, Edwin seems like a terrible example for a buddy that would change how you play, since his just triggers off of buying minions. Honestly, most of the buddies that would change how you play seem to be the good ones, the ones that open up new avenues for how their heroes get stronger, like Xyrella, Y'shaarj, etc.

It's a potential playstyle changer, in that it theoretically opens up a "build" where your plan is to buy and sell as many monster in a turn as you can just to grow this otherwise neutral minion, and shuffles into a number of other potential builds. In practice, it's just nto strong enough to build around because nothing except Poison Murlocs actually matters.

(Aside: had to look up "jebaited." Wasn't aware that Jebailey had become a meme. Kind of neat to see an FGC personality being referenced outside of fighting games though, I guess.)

Yeah, jebaited has been in the lexicon for...a while. At least since I was playing TF2. I find it more fun to say than simply "baited", the extra syllable adds a lot of punch.

[Joran]

Hotfix out for Battlegrounds:

Tarecgosa to Tier 4.
Drakonid Enforcer to Tier 3, stats changed to 2/4 (Dragon that gains stats every time a divine shield pops)
Milllicent Manastorm's buddy changed to Tier 4.

[Zevox]

It's a potential playstyle changer, in that it theoretically opens up a "build" where your plan is to buy and sell as many monster in a turn as you can just to grow this otherwise neutral minion, and shuffles into a number of other potential builds. In practice, it's just nto strong enough to build around because nothing except Poison Murlocs actually matters.

That would never be a new playstyle, since just scaling one minion is never going to be successful - even Majordomo + windfury elemental builds need to supplement with some other source of scaling.

Though now that you got me thinking about it, there is one build where Edwin's buddy would be fantastic: Hogger Pirates. Too bad that's just about the rarest build in the game to actually pull off successfully.

Hotfix out for Battlegrounds:

Tarecgosa to Tier 4.
Drakonid Enforcer to Tier 3, stats changed to 2/4 (Dragon that gains stats every time a divine shield pops)
Milllicent Manastorm's buddy changed to Tier 4.

...really? That's what they think needed to be done for balance? Nerf Tarecgosa and Millificent Manastorm? Not Illidan? And they didn't even buff Tarecgosa's starting stats to help make up for the tier increase?

Okay, I am now starting to wonder what happened to the guys who were supposed to be balancing Battlegrounds. It was in great shape prior to the buddies update, but between some of the buddy disparities that were obvious even before we got to play with them, the cost increase to tavern 5, and this, things are not looking promising at the moment.

[Joran]

...really? That's what they think needed to be done for balance? Nerf Tarecgosa and Millificent Manastorm? Not Illidan? And they didn't even buff Tarecgosa's starting stats to help make up for the tier increase?

Okay, I am now starting to wonder what happened to the guys who were supposed to be balancing Battlegrounds. It was in great shape prior to the buddies update, but between some of the buddy disparities that were obvious even before we got to play with them, the cost increase to tavern 5, and this, things are not looking promising at the moment.

Per a developer on Twitter:

More changes are coming. Today's changes are minimal because of the issue with displaying them in-game correctly in a server-only hotfix. Millificent is a step above the others in power, but more nerfs are planned including Illidan.

https://twitter.com/DCalkosz/status/...Hzv5HFROg&s=19

They're definitely aware, but technically, they can't push out more nerfs/buffs than these until the next client side update.

Also, I'm fine with Tarecgosa remaining a 4/4; it's in-line with the other self-buffing cards like Champion of Y'sharrj and Goldgrubber.

[Zevox]

Per a developer on Twitter:



https://twitter.com/DCalkosz/status/...Hzv5HFROg&s=19

They're definitely aware, but technically, they can't push out more nerfs/buffs than these until the next client side update.

Also, I'm fine with Tarecgosa remaining a 4/4; it's in-line with the other self-buffing cards like Champion of Y'sharrj and Goldgrubber.

You'd think they could say things like that in the official announcement of the hotfix, rather than on random social media platforms where less of the player base will see it.

Still, I'm kind of baffled by the notion that it's Millificent that was "a step above the others in power." Granted, I haven't played her yet, but I also haven't seen her much, and when I have... eh. I mean, I've died once or twice to a nasty bombing from her buddy, but it never felt like it was insanely OP, just annoying. And I've definitely out-statted her ability to win by bombing a couple of times as well.

Meanwhile, Illidan just feels like cheating. I've seen him a lot, and played him myself, and he just seems head and shoulders above anyone else due to the free immunity being that powerful. When I've lost with him, it's because I low-rolled, but I was still carried to at least third by how potent that buddy is. Hell, he even gets his buddy faster than anyone else too, because it's not only tier 2, but his hero power gives an attack bonus to his minions, which significantly ups his buddy meter gain in the early turns.

As for Tarecgosa, I don't think you can compare it to the likes of Champion of Y'Sharrj or Goldgrubber. It's not self-buffing, it's buffed by another, very specific card, the Promo-Drake. (Yes, technically it can be buffed by other effects too, but aside from Tavish's hero-specific buddy, none of them give it enough stats to really be a minion you'd keep long-term besides the Promo-Drake.) And while Champion of Y'Sharrj and Goldgrubber require other cards to trigger their self-buffing, they require only cards from broad categories (anything with taunt and anything golden), not particularly specific cards. Making it harder to find Tarecgosa due to an increased tavern tier will likely have a more substantial impact than you might at first think simply due to how specific the combo is there.

[zlefin]

One other thing that can significantly buff tarecgosa, in very select situations, is the tier 1 max hp transfer imp. I had one in a game where I was Guff; so the imp had grown quite a bit over time from Guff's power. I think my tarecgosa gained 150 or 200 max hp from that imp over the turns.

I'm fine with tarecgosa nerfs; in fact I wonder if it might be best to just remove it entirely. The basic problem with a card like that is it significantly constrains the design of all other cards/heroes, by introducing such a unique interaction.

At any rate, I won't be able to figure out more about battlegrounds, the accursed hard crash bug is apparently still present. And I really hate having to reboot my computer, so I'm going on another hearthstone hiatus.

[Rynjin]

Yeah, the nerf to Tarecgosa was very justified. It's a fun minion, but it's absurd how fast it can grow...and unlike Goldgrubber and Champion, it not only grows fast, it can permanently gain Divine Shield with any pilot.

[Zevox]

One other thing that can significantly buff tarecgosa, in very select situations, is the tier 1 max hp transfer imp. I had one in a game where I was Guff; so the imp had grown quite a bit over time from Guff's power. I think my tarecgosa gained 150 or 200 max hp from that imp over the turns.

Without a significant source of attack buffs alongside it, though, all you're doing there is turning it into the equivalent of Annihilan Battlemaster. High health but low attack can be good at times, but ultimately only gets you so far.

If the Tarecgosa nerf impacts it too much, they're going to need to consider what else they can do to keep Dragons viable. Tarecgosa and Promo-Drake were the answer to the problem that Dragons had since they launched, where they only became an actual build if you got ahold of exactly Kalecgos. If that answer goes away, that problem returns.

[Rynjin]

On the flipside, it's absolutely bizarre that a T3 and T4 minion completely obsoleted the T6 "powerhouse" minion. They should honestly probably just give Kalecgos the boot at this point and replace it with something else that fits into the Tarecgosa build, since it feels waaaay too slow these days. Same with the T5 scaling guy for that matter.

[Zevox]

On the flipside, it's absolutely bizarre that a T3 and T4 minion completely obsoleted the T6 "powerhouse" minion. They should honestly probably just give Kalecgos the boot at this point and replace it with something else that fits into the Tarecgosa build, since it feels waaaay too slow these days. Same with the T5 scaling guy for that matter.

I've both pulled off Kalecgos builds and seen them done by others successfully in recent times (yes, I mean since the buddies patch). It's rare, since opportunities to get a build started when you find a tavern 6 minion are rare, but it can happen, and it's still viable. Especially in combination with Whelp Smuggler, who turns Kalecgos' buff from +1/+1 to +1/+2 (or +1/+3 if she's golden), getting you half the effect of a second Kalecgos on a much easier to acquire card, which also makes for a convenient "sell this when you find a Nadina" slot.

And you mean Razorgore for that last? Hell no, he needs to stay. Tarecgosa builds need him in order to not just have the 1-2 Tarecgosas that are big and nothing else of notable size, and of course he's good if you manage to get a Kalecgos build going too.

[The Glyphstone]

I've never figured out how to make Kalecgos work, myself. He wants Battlecries but Dragons have very few good Battlecry minions - the 4/4 Taunt, and that's about it I can remember.

[Rynjin]

I've never figured out how to make Kalecgos work, myself. He wants Battlecries but Dragons have very few good Battlecry minions - the 4/4 Taunt, and that's about it I can remember.

The answer is: buy EVERY BATTLECRY, not just ones that are good for dragons. Everything that says Battlecry on it becomes "Battlecry: give all your Dragons +1/+1".

[Zevox]

I've never figured out how to make Kalecgos work, myself. He wants Battlecries but Dragons have very few good Battlecry minions - the 4/4 Taunt, and that's about it I can remember.

The answer is: buy EVERY BATTLECRY, not just ones that are good for dragons. Everything that says Battlecry on it becomes "Battlecry: give all your Dragons +1/+1".

Yes, that. If you have a choice between a battlecry that buffs a Dragon and one that doesn't and can't afford both, go for the one that does, of course, but otherwise, you literally don't care what the battlecry is supposed to do, you just buy it and play it, getting +1/+1 to your entire board.

This actually makes Millhouse in particular great with Kalecgos: he can buy more battlecries per turn than any other hero, and needs to do less refreshing of the tavern when all he's looking for is literally anything with a battlecry.

[Rynjin]

Yeah. Like, by all means prioritize the 4/4 dragon and the punch cup/jug, but those are just nice extras. +1/+1 to your whole board is just default good. Try to end on the 4/4 if you can, since ending with a 5/5 with Taunt is typically better than the alternatives.

[Joran]

Big Hearthstone buddy patch.

Too much to summarize, but lots of buddies going up and down tiers. I wonder if Illidan's golden buddy still does the same thing.

[Zevox]

Big Hearthstone buddy patch.

Too much to summarize, but lots of buddies going up and down tiers. I wonder if Illidan's golden buddy still does the same thing.

Challenge accepted.

Summary: Mostly changes that don't seem big enough to matter, because the power difference between these buddies is just too big. Moving some buddies up a tavern tier will typically just delay them entering play by a turn, maybe two if the hero isn't faring well in the early game. Moving most of buddies down a tavern tier doesn't matter because their problem isn't how late they come in, it's how weak their effect is. Minor adjustments to stats won't matter because most buddies don't matter for their stats, and those that do can scale, and pretty quickly. There might be an exception or two in there, but overall, I'm not impressed. (Also: for ****'s sake Blizzard, undo the tavern 5 cost increase! That is part of the problem here, gating the actual end-game to only heroes who are either already powerful enough to be comfortable taverning up at that point, or those lucky enough to be very powerful when they get to that point.)

More specific reactions:

Spoiler

Show

Changes that I don't think will matter: Illidan, AF Kay, Cariel, Tavish, Karl, Xyrella, Curator, Vol'jin, Lich King, Patches, Gallywix, Flurgl, Deryl, Millhouse, Lich, Tess, Scabbs, Galewing, Deathwing, Aranna, Sneed, Reno, Omu.
- A few standouts to comment on specifically:
-- EDIT: Illidan's change matters more than I thought at first, because at first I thought they'd just changed its tavern tier. But now it only grants immunity to the first attacker, not both of those affected by his hero power. That does matter... but only so much. It's still crazy abusable with poison minions, and if we're honest, usually his second wingman didn't even get its second immunity from the golden buddy, since the match ended or it died before it got to attack again, it being on the far right and all. So he's lost some power, but is still very strong and potentially still busted, I think. I still suspect they'll eventually need to change what his buddy does entirely, because immunity attacks on top of things like divine shield amalgadon or reborn maexxna is just that ridiculous.
-- Flurgl is an absolute joke change. His buddy has slightly lower stats, and that doesn't mean a damn thing because what's so potent about it isn't its stats at all. He'll likely still have the most powerful tavern 4 buddy.
-- Xyrella and the Curator might be impacted slightly by starting to scale their buddies a turn later, but they're still fast-scaling, powerful buddies, so they're likely to remain quite strong. And frankly, they should, since they suck without them; the problem is how many other heroes have neither a hero power nor a buddy that puts them on the same level as those two with these buddies.
-- Tess, Scabbs, Aranna, Deathwing, and Reno don't need their buddies sooner, they need them to do something different, because as-is, their effects suck. Reno's is especially a joke with the huge stat nerf it ate in the process.
-- Omu is one of the few heroes who might actually benefit significantly from lowering the tavern tier of his buddy so he gets it sooner... and instead they just gave it a few extra stats. As someone who likes Omu, I must say, that's so disappointing.


Changes that might matter: Millificent, Tickatus, Shudderwock, Ysera, Guff, Bigglesworth, Elise, Galakrond.
- Millificent's new nerf is more meaningful than the tavern tier nerf. But she'll still likely be just as annoying as before, since her best build involves getting that 5 minion that re-spawns your first two dead mechs to multiply her buddy. The break point for having more stats than she can bomb down will move down, though; I just wonder by how much when all's said and done.
- Tickatus I have not played, so I'm quite unsure about where he even stands, but that change does look like it could be a big deal on the surface. Might be interesting to see.
- Shudderwock's change makes him more powerful in the mid-game, which I think he needed, so I think it has a chance of making a difference on him.
- Ysera will be more impacted by Tarecgosa moving to tavern 4 than her buddy moving to tavern 4, I think. But the combination of the two certainly hurts her. And she was already weaker after the buddies patch than before, so I'm starting to worry she might return to the days of just sucking.
- Guff is another of those rare heroes who might benefit from just getting his buddy earlier, since it spawns high-tavern tier minions for him to buy. Still makes him high-rolly, but might make going for that high roll more practical.
- Bigglesworth is perhaps an odd one to include here, but the extra health on his buddy, which is already tavern 2, could help him fare better early on, and he obviously benefits greatly from doing well early so he survives longer than others. I don't know, maybe this is just me being overly optimistic.
- Elise could entirely be me just being overly optimistic, since I want her to be good, but I am inclined to think that getting her value-generating buddy earlier might matter. I've had some decent results with her as-is, and will be eager to try her again after this buff.
- Galakrond I also haven't played, so it's hard for me to be sure about him one way or the other, but earlier access to higher-tier minions might matter, I would think. Could just be me being unfamiliar with the buddy though - if it only gives minions of +1 tavern tier (it's worded as if it could be any tavern tier above where you're at), then it's much less of a big deal to get it early, since you'll probably just want to save it until it can give you 5s or 6s.

Edit: Didn't notice that Illidan had been changed outside of the tavern tier shift.

[Joran]

Challenge accepted.

Summary: Mostly changes that don't seem big enough to matter, because the power difference between these buddies is just too big. Moving some buddies up a tavern tier will typically just delay them entering play by a turn, maybe two if the hero isn't faring well in the early game. Moving most of buddies down a tavern tier doesn't matter because their problem isn't how late they come in, it's how weak their effect is. Minor adjustments to stats won't matter because most buddies don't matter for their stats, and those that do can scale, and pretty quickly. There might be an exception or two in there, but overall, I'm not impressed. (Also: for ****'s sake Blizzard, undo the tavern 5 cost increase! That is part of the problem here, gating the actual end-game to only heroes who are either already powerful enough to be comfortable taverning up at that point, or those lucky enough to be very powerful when they get to that point.)

More specific reactions:

Spoiler

Show

Changes that I don't think will matter: Illidan, AF Kay, Cariel, Tavish, Karl, Xyrella, Curator, Vol'jin, Lich King, Patches, Gallywix, Flurgl, Deryl, Millhouse, Lich, Tess, Scabbs, Galewing, Deathwing, Aranna, Sneed, Reno, Omu.
- A few standouts to comment on specifically:
-- EDIT: Illidan's change matters more than I thought at first, because at first I thought they'd just changed its tavern tier. But now it only grants immunity to the first attacker, not both of those affected by his hero power. That does matter... but only so much. It's still crazy abusable with poison minions, and if we're honest, usually his second wingman didn't even get its second immunity from the golden buddy, since the match ended or it died before it got to attack again, it being on the far right and all. So he's lost some power, but is still very strong and potentially still busted, I think. I still suspect they'll eventually need to change what his buddy does entirely, because immunity attacks on top of things like divine shield amalgadon or reborn maexxna is just that ridiculous.
-- Flurgl is an absolute joke change. His buddy has slightly lower stats, and that doesn't mean a damn thing because what's so potent about it isn't its stats at all. He'll likely still have the most powerful tavern 4 buddy.
-- Xyrella and the Curator might be impacted slightly by starting to scale their buddies a turn later, but they're still fast-scaling, powerful buddies, so they're likely to remain quite strong. And frankly, they should, since they suck without them; the problem is how many other heroes have neither a hero power nor a buddy that puts them on the same level as those two with these buddies.
-- Tess, Scabbs, Aranna, Deathwing, and Reno don't need their buddies sooner, they need them to do something different, because as-is, their effects suck. Reno's is especially a joke with the huge stat nerf it ate in the process.
-- Omu is one of the few heroes who might actually benefit significantly from lowering the tavern tier of his buddy so he gets it sooner... and instead they just gave it a few extra stats. As someone who likes Omu, I must say, that's so disappointing.


Changes that might matter: Millificent, Tickatus, Shudderwock, Ysera, Guff, Bigglesworth, Elise, Galakrond.
- Millificent's new nerf is more meaningful than the tavern tier nerf. But she'll still likely be just as annoying as before, since her best build involves getting that 5 minion that re-spawns your first two dead mechs to multiply her buddy. The break point for having more stats than she can bomb down will move down, though; I just wonder by how much when all's said and done.
- Tickatus I have not played, so I'm quite unsure about where he even stands, but that change does look like it could be a big deal on the surface. Might be interesting to see.
- Shudderwock's change makes him more powerful in the mid-game, which I think he needed, so I think it has a chance of making a difference on him.
- Ysera will be more impacted by Tarecgosa moving to tavern 4 than her buddy moving to tavern 4, I think. But the combination of the two certainly hurts her. And she was already weaker after the buddies patch than before, so I'm starting to worry she might return to the days of just sucking.
- Guff is another of those rare heroes who might benefit from just getting his buddy earlier, since it spawns high-tavern tier minions for him to buy. Still makes him high-rolly, but might make going for that high roll more practical.
- Bigglesworth is perhaps an odd one to include here, but the extra health on his buddy, which is already tavern 2, could help him fare better early on, and he obviously benefits greatly from doing well early so he survives longer than others. I don't know, maybe this is just me being overly optimistic.
- Elise could entirely be me just being overly optimistic, since I want her to be good, but I am inclined to think that getting her value-generating buddy earlier might matter. I've had some decent results with her as-is, and will be eager to try her again after this buff.
- Galakrond I also haven't played, so it's hard for me to be sure about him one way or the other, but earlier access to higher-tier minions might matter, I would think. Could just be me being unfamiliar with the buddy though - if it only gives minions of +1 tavern tier (it's worded as if it could be any tavern tier above where you're at), then it's much less of a big deal to get it early, since you'll probably just want to save it until it can give you 5s or 6s.

Edit: Didn't notice that Illidan had been changed outside of the tavern tier shift.

I wonder how much the cost increase to tier 5 is to prevent tier 2 buddy users to triple into a tier 6 before everybody else. Currently, it feels like I get my golden tier 3 buddy at around the point that the tier up to 5 is around 7-8 gold, so feels about right.

Been playing around a little (10-14 games per week) and buddies definitely added a bit of fresh air to Battlegrounds. It also feels great to come up with a truly ridiculous strat based on a buddy.
I was Ragnaros, got hit down to 8 hp, but the HP came online just before I died, then Rag's Buddy (end of turn actions happen twice) the next turn. Picked up 2 Majordomo and a bunch of Sellamentals and I was putting +40/40 per turn with Golden Buddy on Hydras and won the lobby.

[Zevox]

I wonder how much the cost increase to tier 5 is to prevent tier 2 buddy users to triple into a tier 6 before everybody else. Currently, it feels like I get my golden tier 3 buddy at around the point that the tier up to 5 is around 7-8 gold, so feels about right.

Preventing it? It's encouraging that. If you triple your buddy, it costs you nothing to play that triple and get the discover, which makes it more practical for heroes with a tier 2 buddy to tavern to 5 if it happens while the cost is still high, because even though you don't buy anything, you get that tavern 6 discover.

Been playing around a little (10-14 games per week) and buddies definitely added a bit of fresh air to Battlegrounds. It also feels great to come up with a truly ridiculous strat based on a buddy.

I felt that way at first, but the more I've been playing it, the more the ridiculous imbalance is killing my fun. The power spikes that happen nowadays feel worse than when Darkmoon Prizes were universal. I've had entire games where it feels like I'm finding good minions and building a strong board, but I can't win a match because everybody else is somehow doing even better, so I end up in 6th-8th. Something really needs to be done to reign things in, and the minor adjustments they just made did not do nearly enough.

I was Ragnaros, got hit down to 8 hp, but the HP came online just before I died, then Rag's Buddy (end of turn actions happen twice) the next turn. Picked up 2 Majordomo and a bunch of Sellamentals and I was putting +40/40 per turn with Golden Buddy on Hydras and won the lobby.

Yeah, Ragnaros' buddy is pretty cool. I had one run where I got a golden Lightfang with it, and oh boy was that nice. But he still tends to suffer badly before his hero power comes online, and it's depressing when you get his buddy before his hero power has activated (which has happened to me every time I've played him).

[Zevox]

New Battlegrounds heroes dropped today, and I actually got to play four games in a row with some of them, so, some impressions.

Varden: Hero power causes the rightmost minion in the tavern to be copied and the copy to be frozen whenever the tavern refreshes. This includes at the start of a turn, but only if at least one new minion is added to the board - if you freeze a full board, you will not get an extra copy of the rightmost minion. His buddy is a tavern 2 Elemental, 3/5 stats, whose effect is that the frozen copy his hero power creates also gets stats equal to your tavern tier.
- I played three games with this guy, and I think he has potential. Getting a double on every board makes it easier for him to assemble triples, and his buddy gives him a mid-game stat boost. However, he's not amazing, and I did not fare that well in any of my games with him, taking 4th once and 5th twice. I feel like he's behind the current power curve of the game, but if they were to do something to slow things down, he'd get better.

Rokara: Hero power causes any of her minions that kills an enemy minion to gain +1 attack permanently (works even if her minion dies doing so). Buddy is a tavern 4 Beast, 5/2 stats, whose effect is that whenever one of her minions kills an enemy minion, it (her buddy, not the minion that killed something) gains +1 health permanently.
- She's probably good in the current meta, but I find her boring, frankly. Simply put, that hero power pushes her to collect Divine Shield minions, so she'll end up with a high attack/low health divine shield build most of the time, which I find unappealing. Her buddy's not bad, but unless she's running a menagerie, she probably can't keep it forever. Even being a Beast, well, Beasts builds want some very specific beasts - Macaws, Gul'drin/Leaper, a couple of Hydras/Rats, Maexxna, and Baron. Hard to find a free spot for it. And Beast buffers outside of the Gul'drin/Leaper deathrattles are not plentiful.

Onyxia: Hero power is Avenge 4: Summon a 2/1 Whelp that attacks immediately. Buddy is a a tavern 2 Dragon, 4/2 stats, that gains +2/+2 permanently whenever you summon a Whelp.
- I haven't played her, but saw a couple of people play her, and personally, I think she's terrible. That hero power will help her in the very early game when 2 extra damage can turn the tides, but it's quickly outpaced as minions grow bigger, and it's going to be hard to summon more than one Whelp before her buddy is killed when the Avenge count needed is so high, so her prospects in the mid and late game look terrible to me. Honestly it feels like they did not think this hero through.

Also, the three heroes that were disabled due to bugs when Buddies launched are back in the pool - Chenvala, Silas, and Kael'thas. Haven't played them yet, but my impression from seeing what their buddies are was that Chenvala's would likely help him quite a bit, Silas' might be good (though now I'm leaning against it after seeing how fast the meta has gotten), and Kae'thas' looks pretty unimpressive, personally.

Sadly, no balance changes coming with these guys, so we have to continue waiting for Blizzard to actually address the horrible imbalances the Buddies patch introduced. (Also, I'd say my guesses on how last week's patch would go were pretty close to reality. It seems to have blunted Xyrella, the Curator, and Illidan's power levels a bit (though not rendered them bad), while the buffs probably only helped Tickatus, and to a lesser extent Guff, but otherwise, things are largely unchanged.)