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  1. - Top - End - #421
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    I primarily watch Firebat on Youtube. He, uh, certainly doesn't just upload the wins, that's for sure.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    I primarily watch Firebat on Youtube. He, uh, certainly doesn't just upload the wins, that's for sure.
    I watch some (though not all) of his videos as well, but I certainly can't recall him uploading losses. Unless you're assuming that by wins I meant 1st-place finishes only? Because I don't, 2nd-4th is still a win in Battlegrounds. Though granted 1st-place finishes are still the majority of what any Hearthstone streamer seems to put on Youtube, and I wouldn't say Firebat's an exception to that, though he's perhaps a bit more prone to including lower-placed wins than others that I've watched.
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  3. - Top - End - #423
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Even if that's true and every streamer only uploads wins and nothing else, don't you think it's telling that more than half of those wins involve a Murloc pivot?

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Even if that's true and every streamer only uploads wins and nothing else, don't you think it's telling that more than half of those wins involve a Murloc pivot?
    They don't, though. Again, while I don't watch all of his videos, I'm pretty confident that's not even true of Firebat's. The only Hearthstone streamer I've seen who might go Murlocs that often is Kripp, and he's not usually pivoting, he's usually playing Murlocs start to finish. Which he openly admits often gets him killed, and he just does it because he finds it fun to play that way. And even for him I'd almost want to go take a sample of his videos to find out if he's actually doing Murlocs quite that frequently in them.

    Moreover, the point here being that Youtube videos of Battlegrounds just aren't ever going to be a representative sample of how the matches overall go. They're highlights, the matches that streamer has decided were entertaining enough to put on Youtube from their stream, and usually involve some kind of high-roll, or possibly a low-roll they were surprised they recovered from, or something unusual about the lobby overall - just something that makes them more entertaining than the average match. You don't see videos of them going Murlocs and end up in 7th, or try to transition into Murlocs only to fall flat on their face because their Megasaur didn't give them Divine Shield + Poisonous (or only gave one or the other), leaving their new board of small Murlocs to get demolished by whatever their opponent has. And that's not because those things don't happen or even only happen rarely, but because they're anti-climactic or otherwise not fun to watch and thus don't get put up on Youtube.
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  5. - Top - End - #425
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Got my first win on my first game with Mr. Bigglesworth. Fun game; I played a strong mid-game comp and intentionally didn't level as aggressively as I would normally to put more damage into a Reno and build up a strong board so I would survive until people started dying.

    One fun thing with Mr. Bigglesworth is that any golden minion you pick still gets the discover. I ended up transitioning when I got a golden Deflecto-Bot + golden large divine shield Mechano-Egg and then got an Amalgon + Brann to make a pretty strong comp. First two minions with really lackluster though, so I can see getting absolutely murdered as Cat if you don't get use out of your hero power.

    And if you think people in the 9000's can't make mistakes, I turbo-stomped the 2nd place Lich King because he was running a Macaw + Goldrinn Comp and he placed the Goldrinn next to his taunt when he knew I had a cleave. He also greedily put his hero power on the Golden Macaw instead of the Goldrinn, so the Goldrinn died and then all his stuff died into my Mechano-Egg.

    P.S. My previous win was with Murlocs. Murlocs still feel strong, but you don't get to just win the game off of a Brann + Megasaur.
    Last edited by Joran; 2020-09-01 at 07:49 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #426
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    My favorite part of the new Battlegrounds meta is that Pogohoppers are a legitimate comp. Without the threat of Divine Shield Poisonous Murlocs, heroes like Brann and Aranna can sit on two for most of the game and build up some monstrous Pogos. Grab some Selfless Heroes for Divine Shield, then when the field narrows level up to 4 to grab Annoy-o-Module and maybe a Goldgrubber. Then try for Rivendare, Amalgadon, and possibly Ghoul if your opponent also has Divine Shield.

  7. - Top - End - #427
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Joran View Post
    P.S. My previous win was with Murlocs. Murlocs still feel strong, but you don't get to just win the game off of a Brann + Megasaur.
    I would have to pretty strongly disagree. Murlocs currently feel like they're one if not the weakest tribe in Battlegrounds. You can high-roll and get Brann plus enough Bagurgles to compete on mass stats, but that is very much a high-roll, and you're much more likely to just die trying to set it up than you are to get it. I'm pretty confident at this point that the changes to Primalfin were a net wash - getting it earlier just doesn't help much when you don't have Brann for it and it can't get you its best pulls then.

    I'd say Murlocs and Dragons are the two that feel like they need some help. Dragons not by much though - obviously they haven't changed, they're just still a lesser version of what Murlocs used to be, with a sometimes-strong early game (via Whelps and/or Waxrider), a sky-high potential late-game (Kalecgos + Nadina), but a very hard time in between. But it really feels like going Dragons necessarily means gambling on tripling (or Zerus-ing) into a Kalecgos, because without him, you'll just get stomped and come in somewhere in 4th-6th at best. And while it's not necessarily bad to have a tribe that has that mid-game weakness in exchange for late-game strength (like I said, I liked Murlocs before they removed Megasaur for that reason), the fact that they're so dependent on a single tier 6 minion feels pretty bad.

    By contrast, Beasts could use a touch of nerfing. The sum changes that they got seem to have made them just good at all phases of the game - pick up Pack Leader early and all of your beasts are just good early on, then the combination of the now-more-common Pack Leaders with Hydras in the mid-game and Mama Bear having been lowered to tier 5 makes the tribe strong then, and of course their late game is strong with either Mama Bear + tokens or, at the high-roll end, Macaw + Goldrin builds. I think they could stand to keep the Mama Bear change, but revert the tiers of Rat Pack and Pack Leader, making the tribe a bit harder to get going in the early game, personally.

    Yeah, it's kind of hard for me to say how the last patch worked out in whole. Removal of Arcane Cannon was a big win, and some of the Beast buffs were necessary, but it feels like the Beast buffs went too far on the whole, and the Murloc changes weren't for the better.
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  8. - Top - End - #428
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    I would have to pretty strongly disagree. Murlocs currently feel like they're one if not the weakest tribe in Battlegrounds. You can high-roll and get Brann plus enough Bagurgles to compete on mass stats, but that is very much a high-roll, and you're much more likely to just die trying to set it up than you are to get it. I'm pretty confident at this point that the changes to Primalfin were a net wash - getting it earlier just doesn't help much when you don't have Brann for it and it can't get you its best pulls then.

    I'd say Murlocs and Dragons are the two that feel like they need some help. Dragons not by much though - obviously they haven't changed, they're just still a lesser version of what Murlocs used to be, with a sometimes-strong early game (via Whelps and/or Waxrider), a sky-high potential late-game (Kalecgos + Nadina), but a very hard time in between. But it really feels like going Dragons necessarily means gambling on tripling (or Zerus-ing) into a Kalecgos, because without him, you'll just get stomped and come in somewhere in 4th-6th at best. And while it's not necessarily bad to have a tribe that has that mid-game weakness in exchange for late-game strength (like I said, I liked Murlocs before they removed Megasaur for that reason), the fact that they're so dependent on a single tier 6 minion feels pretty bad.

    By contrast, Beasts could use a touch of nerfing. The sum changes that they got seem to have made them just good at all phases of the game - pick up Pack Leader early and all of your beasts are just good early on, then the combination of the now-more-common Pack Leaders with Hydras in the mid-game and Mama Bear having been lowered to tier 5 makes the tribe strong then, and of course their late game is strong with either Mama Bear + tokens or, at the high-roll end, Macaw + Goldrin builds. I think they could stand to keep the Mama Bear change, but revert the tiers of Rat Pack and Pack Leader, making the tribe a bit harder to get going in the early game, personally.

    Yeah, it's kind of hard for me to say how the last patch worked out in whole. Removal of Arcane Cannon was a big win, and some of the Beast buffs were necessary, but it feels like the Beast buffs went too far on the whole, and the Murloc changes weren't for the better.
    Pirates are the weakest tribe by far. Every other tribe has a build-around where you think "okay, I can build towards something and win the game." Mechs are really good since they're consistent and you can stay on tier 4 and just roll to get a top 4; they're super strong mid-game especially if you hit the early Deflecto-Bot and Annoy-o-modules. Dragons is a "okay, I early tripled into Kalecgos, time to go all dragons"; otherwise, you need to start pivoting. Beasts is early tripling into Mama Bear, but has a really strong mid-game core as well.

    Murlocs is mostly Brann or bust, but if you have a board of murlocs and you pick up an early Brann (like I did yesterday with Rafaam with frozen lookout), you just win the game. The Lookout change feels like it improved murloc mid-game, since before there was an incentive for you to level up rapidly to 5, since you triple into Megasaur or roll into lookout/Bagurgle. It's that early level to 5 which would lead into a bunch of damage and maybe kill you if you miss your triples.

    With Lookout at 4, you can feel a little more comfortable rolling at 4 (assuming again that you tripled into a Brann or Bagurgle), since there's nothing at 6 that Murlocs want. Then when you're comfortable with your stats and exhaust your triples, you can level to 5 to get the Bagurgles and Brann if you missed out on the triples. Murlocs also feels very strong with the Brann hero power since there's so many Murloc battlecry minions.

    The high-roll for Pirates is just not as good, since hitting an early Hogger or Eliza doesn't scale you as hard as the early Kalecgos or Brann.

  9. - Top - End - #429
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Joran View Post
    Pirates are the weakest tribe by far.
    [...]
    The high-roll for Pirates is just not as good, since hitting an early Hogger or Eliza doesn't scale you as hard as the early Kalecgos or Brann.
    Pirates are in an odd place compared to the other tribes. If you just get one of their important pieces and try to build around it but don't hit the others, yeah, they won't work out so hot. One Hogger or Ripsnarl Captain only does so much, and even Eliza needs other important pieces supporting her. When their important pieces do come together though, and you get that 2-3x Hogger + golden Salty Looter, or golden Rispnarl plus Eliza, and especially if you get both and/or can throw in Goldgrubber, they become utterly devastating and will dominate the mid-game and probably early portion of the late-game completely, dealing massive damage to every foe as they only have 0-2 minions die per fight thanks to all of the buffs they pass out in battle. That makes improving them beyond where they're at without reducing the power of that high-roll extremely dangerous. Arguably that might be a bad design, but it is at least a unique take on a higher-risk/reward faction, so I'm not necessarily looking for them to change Pirates personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joran View Post
    Murlocs is mostly Brann or bust, but if you have a board of murlocs and you pick up an early Brann (like I did yesterday with Rafaam with frozen lookout), you just win the game. The Lookout change feels like it improved murloc mid-game, since before there was an incentive for you to level up rapidly to 5, since you triple into Megasaur or roll into lookout/Bagurgle. It's that early level to 5 which would lead into a bunch of damage and maybe kill you if you miss your triples.

    With Lookout at 4, you can feel a little more comfortable rolling at 4 (assuming again that you tripled into a Brann or Bagurgle), since there's nothing at 6 that Murlocs want. Then when you're comfortable with your stats and exhaust your triples, you can level to 5 to get the Bagurgles and Brann if you missed out on the triples. Murlocs also feels very strong with the Brann hero power since there's so many Murloc battlecry minions.
    I think all of that is quite wrong, honestly. To address each in turn:

    - If you get an early Brann, you most definitely do not "just win." You can compete, and you will probably get top 2-3, assuming you don't low-roll on finding buff Murlocs, but you are still going to need more than that to get 1st. This does, however, assume that you go to tavern tier 5 relatively soon afterward, as you will struggle more if you stay on 4.
    -- If you get Brann not early but just on time (shortly after going to 5 if you do that within a couple of turns of going to 4), all you get to do is actually compete. You have a decent shot at finding enough buffs to be in the top 4, but you still might very well get steamrolled while trying to find them, depending on timing and your opponents' builds, since most other builds will still stomp you in the mid-game if they've started to come together.
    - Going to tavern 5 earlier alone is not the sole reason Murlocs were weak in the mid-game, at all. Their minions start small and need a lot of buffs to compete - even if they find a few Seers or Felfin Navigators, that doesn't give them the ability to beat builds that power spike around that time, such as Juggler Demons or Deflect-o-Bot Mechs, or nowadays Pack Leader/Mama Bear + tokens Beasts. They basically just get stomped on by the most common other tribes in the mid-game, and need to find a big power spike to stay alive. Hence the importance of Brann and Bagurgle.
    - Staying on tavern 4 is little or no smarter now than it was before. There is very much something a Murloc build wants on tavern 6: Amalgadon. They're actually the mono-type build best suited to using that, since they take Brann by default, and four adapts gives him a decent shot at getting divine shield or poison, and you can always add on the one you don't get (assuming mechs aren't banned and thus Annoy-o-Module is available). Meanwhile, without Brann, Seer and Navigator just don't give potent enough buffs to let Murlocs compete, and you're less likely to find Brann when depending on tripling into him than you are by actually going to tavern 5. If you find Brann specifically (not Bagurgle, who is much better off being used to give you a chance to go to tier 5, since he's a brief one-time power boost), you might be okay staying on 4 a little longer if you need to, but you're still a lot better off going to 5 if you can, because Bagurgle and the ability to triple into Amalgadon are a big deal.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    I think all of that is quite wrong, honestly. To address each in turn:

    - If you get an early Brann, you most definitely do not "just win." You can compete, and you will probably get top 2-3, assuming you don't low-roll on finding buff Murlocs, but you are still going to need more than that to get 1st. This does, however, assume that you go to tavern tier 5 relatively soon afterward, as you will struggle more if you stay on 4.
    -- If you get Brann not early but just on time (shortly after going to 5 if you do that within a couple of turns of going to 4), all you get to do is actually compete. You have a decent shot at finding enough buffs to be in the top 4, but you still might very well get steamrolled while trying to find them, depending on timing and your opponents' builds, since most other builds will still stomp you in the mid-game if they've started to come together.
    - Going to tavern 5 earlier alone is not the sole reason Murlocs were weak in the mid-game, at all. Their minions start small and need a lot of buffs to compete - even if they find a few Seers or Felfin Navigators, that doesn't give them the ability to beat builds that power spike around that time, such as Juggler Demons or Deflect-o-Bot Mechs, or nowadays Pack Leader/Mama Bear + tokens Beasts. They basically just get stomped on by the most common other tribes in the mid-game, and need to find a big power spike to stay alive. Hence the importance of Brann and Bagurgle.
    - Staying on tavern 4 is little or no smarter now than it was before. There is very much something a Murloc build wants on tavern 6: Amalgadon. They're actually the mono-type build best suited to using that, since they take Brann by default, and four adapts gives him a decent shot at getting divine shield or poison, and you can always add on the one you don't get (assuming mechs aren't banned and thus Annoy-o-Module is available). Meanwhile, without Brann, Seer and Navigator just don't give potent enough buffs to let Murlocs compete, and you're less likely to find Brann when depending on tripling into him than you are by actually going to tavern 5. If you find Brann specifically (not Bagurgle, who is much better off being used to give you a chance to go to tier 5, since he's a brief one-time power boost), you might be okay staying on 4 a little longer if you need to, but you're still a lot better off going to 5 if you can, because Bagurgle and the ability to triple into Amalgadon are a big deal.
    I agree that Brann's crucial for the staying on tier 4 longer strat; without Brann, a full Murloc comp will get you killed, but 1-2 Murlocs is an easy to way to get poisonous if you need to murder something huge.

    I just won a game where I hit Brann relatively early with no Murlocs on the board on the 10 gold turn, but had rolled into Coldlight Seer + Lookout. I took a bunch of damage while I pivoted by buying the Coldlight Seer + Lookout, holding for a turn (which was scary as heck), and then found the tokens for the base murlocs and buffed them up by staying on Tier 4 for 3 turns, before leveling to Tier 5 when it was pretty cheap. I probably should have lost to the 2nd place Lich King player who got two Divine Shield + Poisonous Amalgadons but I countered with a Ravaging Ghoul, which meant my huge Murlocs traded evenly with them. He should have won but he didn't realize that he needed to keep his Baron and then start looking for Selfless Heroes to Divine Shield the Amalgadons.

    It still feels easier to get those 30-40+ hp murlocs than before just because Lookout is at tier 4. Murlocs still feel strong with the early Brann and my last two wins were with Murlocs. That's probably because they're the most brainless comp once you survive the midgame; just roll, pick the buffing Murlocs, play them and keep going. It takes more skill to beat the giant Murlocs and even at 9700 it seems like people aren't finding those counters.

    Previous game was an absolute tragedy where I got the Macaw + Goldrinn combo, and rolled into the last Macaw and another Goldrinn, but without the gold to buy them. I died by 1 hp.
    Last edited by Joran; 2020-09-02 at 10:29 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #431
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Joran View Post
    I agree that Brann's crucial for the staying on tier 4 longer strat; without Brann, a full Murloc comp will get you killed, but 1-2 Murlocs is an easy to way to get poisonous if you need to murder something huge.
    In which case, you would agree then that Murlocs are little if at all stronger on tier 4 than before, logically. Because if you tripled into Brann on 4 early enough for it to matter, you've already high-rolled. Sure, in the event of that high-roll you're not as heavily incentivized to go to 5 as before, since Primalfin is on 4 and Megasaur no longer exists, but you're still pretty strongly incentivized to do it since doing so gets you access to Bagurgle and Amalgadon as a triple target. And if you don't hit exactly that high-roll, you still absolutely need to go to 5.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joran View Post
    I just won a game where I hit Brann relatively early with no Murlocs on the board on the 10 gold turn, but had rolled into Coldlight Seer + Lookout. I took a bunch of damage while I pivoted by buying the Coldlight Seer + Lookout, holding for a turn (which was scary as heck), and then found the tokens for the base murlocs and buffed them up by staying on Tier 4 for 3 turns, before leveling to Tier 5 when it was pretty cheap. I probably should have lost to the 2nd place Lich King player who got two Divine Shield + Poisonous Amalgadons but I countered with a Ravaging Ghoul, which meant my huge Murlocs traded evenly with them. He should have won but he didn't realize that he needed to keep his Baron and then start looking for Selfless Heroes to Divine Shield the Amalgadons.

    It still feels easier to get those 30-40+ hp murlocs than before just because Lookout is at tier 4. Murlocs still feel strong with the early Brann and my last two wins were with Murlocs. That's probably because they're the most brainless comp once you survive the midgame; just roll, pick the buffing Murlocs, play them and keep going. It takes more skill to beat the giant Murlocs and even at 9700 it seems like people aren't finding those counters.
    Well, congrats on your win - but what you're describing is very much you getting quite lucky. Pulling off a transition on turn 8+ into Murlocs when you had none before just because you found a Brann means that you found a whole lot of the buff Murlocs in a very short period of time. With ordinary luck, you'd be dead for making the attempt, as just a buff minion or two per turn is not going to cut it even with Brann, so you'd spend a few turns getting pounded for a lot of damage, which at that point in the game would be hard to survive even if you still had 40 health beforehand.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Well, congrats on your win - but what you're describing is very much you getting quite lucky. Pulling off a transition on turn 8+ into Murlocs when you had none before just because you found a Brann means that you found a whole lot of the buff Murlocs in a very short period of time. With ordinary luck, you'd be dead for making the attempt, as just a buff minion or two per turn is not going to cut it even with Brann, so you'd spend a few turns getting pounded for a lot of damage, which at that point in the game would be hard to survive even if you still had 40 health beforehand.
    Brann + Frozen Lookout and Coldlight Seer (honestly, the play might have been not to buy the Seer and to roll for tokens + Lookouts instead).

    There is no chance I'd risk that transition that early without the Lookout + Brann. I'm not sure how lucky it was considering I'm rolling for 3 key minions (Seer, Lookout, and Navigator) and Lookout refunds itself and offers a high chance of tripling, which can land Bagurgle.

    My point is that Big Murlocs are still a great end game comp (but not the checkmate, I win comp) and it feels like the Lookout change makes the buffing to large minions + transition easier; it no longer feels like early level to 5 and Megasaur or bust. Murlocs are definitely weaker in the end game without easy access to Divine Shield and Poisonous, and they can't be transitioned into a winning comp with nothing but a Brann + Khadgar + tokens, but Murlocs feel like they're in a good place. They could use a tier 6 capstone minion.

    I asked Victor a 13K-14K Battlegrounds streamer what are the weakest tribes and his answer was Pirates and then Demons, but at that MMR, he needs to prioritize winning and top 3 finishes.

    Demon Juggler is a good comp for a top 4, which is why I love it so and will smack people in the mid game, but fall off fast. Big Demons needs a hard commit early with an early Wrath Weaver and then Floating Watcher.

    Pirates lost their early game dominance with Cannon being removed. The high rolls require at least 2 Hoggers and I'm not picking up a first Hogger unless I have a board of Pirates and Pirates are too weak early game/mid-game for me to have a board of Pirates. If you hit the nuts, you can still win (and thankfully the lack of divine shield + poisonous murlocs means you don't just hard lose if you get infinite pirates), but Pirates need some help.
    Last edited by Joran; 2020-09-03 at 10:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Joran View Post
    Brann + Frozen Lookout and Coldlight Seer (honestly, the play might have been not to buy the Seer and to roll for tokens + Lookouts instead).

    There is no chance I'd risk that transition that early without the Lookout + Brann. I'm not sure how lucky it was considering I'm rolling for 3 key minions (Seer, Lookout, and Navigator) and Lookout refunds itself and offers a high chance of tripling, which can land Bagurgle.
    Yes, and finding several of those quickly, especially the Lookout specifically that is best on gold, is pretty lucky. On average if you're rolling like that you'll find one or two useful minions per turn to buy. That alone isn't going to be enough when you need to both fill a board and lay down a lot of buffs within the span of a turn or two in order to not die. Very definitely a big high-roll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joran View Post
    My point is that Big Murlocs are still a great end game comp (but not the checkmate, I win comp) and it feels like the Lookout change makes the buffing to large minions + transition easier; it no longer feels like early level to 5 and Megasaur or bust. Murlocs are definitely weaker in the end game without easy access to Divine Shield and Poisonous, and they can't be transitioned into a winning comp with nothing but a Brann + Khadgar + tokens, but Murlocs feel like they're in a good place. They could use a tier 6 capstone minion.
    It wasn't Megasaur or bust before, either - unless you were trying to transition from something else entirely, anyway, and that's something should be very risky. Megasaur was just the biggest payoff if you managed to get late enough into the game to find it.

    And while Big Murlocs can do well if you get there, I still disagree that this makes them a great comp. The risk-reward is still heavily askew - other late-game comps very much can beat them if they're high-rolling similarly to what the Murlocs need to be in order to actually get there, but the Murlocs have a much bigger danger of just dying before they can get there, and no longer have the bigger reward from Megasaur as the payoff.

    Aside from those of us who just like doing it, why go Murlocs when Beasts exist and are generally stronger at all stages of the game? Why go Murlocs instead of Mechs or Demons, which will pretty consistently get you into the top 4 even if they won't take 1st often? Even Pirates and Dragons, despite also being high-risk, might look more appealing depending on what you get, since their minions are bigger from the start, Dragons' payoff is bigger if they do get their high-roll and endgame going, and Pirates' payoff comes online quicker and is more devastating to your enemies if they high-roll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joran View Post
    I asked Victor a 13K-14K Battlegrounds streamer what are the weakest tribes and his answer was Pirates and then Demons, but at that MMR, he needs to prioritize winning and top 3 finishes.

    Demon Juggler is a good comp for a top 4, which is why I love it so and will smack people in the mid game, but fall off fast. Big Demons needs a hard commit early with an early Wrath Weaver and then Floating Watcher.

    Pirates lost their early game dominance with Cannon being removed. The high rolls require at least 2 Hoggers and I'm not picking up a first Hogger unless I have a board of Pirates and Pirates are too weak early game/mid-game for me to have a board of Pirates. If you hit the nuts, you can still win (and thankfully the lack of divine shield + poisonous murlocs means you don't just hard lose if you get infinite pirates), but Pirates need some help.
    Demons are indeed a good comp for top 4 - which is precisely why I'd take issue with calling them one of the weakest tribes. They're quite consistent and can get you where you want to go. Just because they can only take 1st if nobody else gets a serious endgame comp going doesn't mean they're weak, just that they're a mid-game tribe.

    As for Pirates, I can only repeat what I already said. Sure, they're inconsistent, and need a high-roll to get going. But when they do get that a high-roll, it's devastating. A strong mid-game or early late-game Pirate team will be hitting people for 20+ damage consistently, which makes games end a lot earlier. Making them more consistent without doing something about that is an extremely risky proposition. I don't know exactly how much help they'd need to get there, but it seems pretty obvious to me that you could risk making them into the most dominant tribe since Bagurgle's addition made Battlegrounds all Murlocs, all the time until they nerfed Seer and Lookout.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    And while Big Murlocs can do well if you get there, I still disagree that this makes them a great comp. The risk-reward is still heavily askew - other late-game comps very much can beat them if they're high-rolling similarly to what the Murlocs need to be in order to actually get there, but the Murlocs have a much bigger danger of just dying before they can get there, and no longer have the bigger reward from Megasaur as the payoff.

    Aside from those of us who just like doing it, why go Murlocs when Beasts exist and are generally stronger at all stages of the game? Why go Murlocs instead of Mechs or Demons, which will pretty consistently get you into the top 4 even if they won't take 1st often? Even Pirates and Dragons, despite also being high-risk, might look more appealing depending on what you get, since their minions are bigger from the start, Dragons' payoff is bigger if they do get their high-roll and endgame going, and Pirates' payoff comes online quicker and is more devastating to your enemies if they high-roll.
    The reason to go Murlocs is that Murlocs are still a great end-game comp. Brann + Murlocs outscale almost anything but the highest of high rolls and unlike end game Beast + Dragon builds, doesn't need a tier 6 minion. The player should generally know on the tier 4 to tier 5 transition turns whether Murlocs are viable. Sometimes the early game is rough and the player needs to turtle with a strong midgame comp of Mechs or Demons and minimize MMR loss. Other times, the player rocks the early game, hits an early Brann, and has the health and resources to transition to Murlocs.

    For high-level streamers, they have to go for higher placements to maintain their MMR; that's why they value scaling end-game tribes. They only gain MMR at 3rd place and an 8th place loses twice the MMR as a win. An example would be if they have a good mid-game comp of Juggler + demons and high health and triple into a tier 5 and get offered Voidlord (which makes their comp immediately stronger) or Brann (gives them a scaling win condition), they'll probably choose Brann. Then they'll take small wins or losses while amassing the pieces to make the transition, rather than waiting to get outscaled.

    If they're at low health and struggling, they'll take the immediate power to clutch out a better placement.

    Pirates feel really bad at the moment; the days of them smacking for 20 in the midgame are gone since there's no Cannon and they changed Nat Pagle's ability. I went Pirates twice last night, lost 120 MMR and I'm never playing them again.

    P.S. Had a really fun last game; the last 3 players was a battle between Godzilla, Mothra, and King Kong. Two full dragon end-game builds (one Golden Kalecgos and one Golden Razorgore (100+ attack/defense), most of the other minions were in the 50 attack/defense, the other had two Amalgadons with poison and divine shield and their own Kalecgoes with smaller dragons) and I hit the absolute nuts End Game Beast build (Golden Macaw, Golden Goldrin and another Goldrin, golden Baron, two Hydras and a Maxenna). I ended up barely beating the Amagadon player (Massive Hydra hit to the adjacent minion to the poison) and then dodged a Zapp to beat the last guy.

    Then there are those weird games where you have a garage sale of Mechs and somehow win.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Speaking of mechs, they're finally getting rid of Mecharoo! The worst minion in Battlegrounds has finally been removed. It's been replaced with Micro Mummy.

    Micro Mummy still doesn't beat most other tier 1 minions, but it does draw with a lot more of them. The bonus attack it provides adds much needed early scaling to mechs to allow them to get some decent attack on minions other than Deflect-o-Bot. It's also a unit that is actually good to Golden, instead of the whopping +1/+1 bonus the Mecharoo got.

    I don't think it will be enough to make Mechs competitive late game, but it solidifies their position as a 4th place midgame comp.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Oh thank goodness, Mecharoo is such hot garbage. Every other t1 minion has at least some potential use...
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Joran View Post
    The reason to go Murlocs is that Murlocs are still a great end-game comp. Brann + Murlocs outscale almost anything but the highest of high rolls and unlike end game Beast + Dragon builds, doesn't need a tier 6 minion. The player should generally know on the tier 4 to tier 5 transition turns whether Murlocs are viable. Sometimes the early game is rough and the player needs to turtle with a strong midgame comp of Mechs or Demons and minimize MMR loss. Other times, the player rocks the early game, hits an early Brann, and has the health and resources to transition to Murlocs.
    Transitioning to Murlocs if you weren't already using at least some is rarely a good idea. That requires a serious high-roll, starting with having already found Brann, as we've covered before.

    As for Murlocs outscaling other comps? Only when they get enough buffs, and even if they find Brann, it's always an open question of whether they will. They need a lot to deal with strong Beast comps or high-roll Dragons/Pirates, and for the first couple of turns after starting on that path are still going to be vulnerable to death by Mechs/Demons. And the highest high-rolls still don't favor them. Top-end high-roll Beasts will be running Macaw/Goldrin/Baron/Hydras, which without Divine Shields will beat Murlocs. Top-end high-roll Dragons will be massively buffed by Kalecgos and have divine shields off Nadina. Top-end high-roll Murlocs have big stats and a couple of Amalgadons, which are great but less effective than the mass divine shields of Nadina and vulnerable to the beasts' Macaws popping their divine shields (since they probably also have taunt).

    And this is on top of the fact that Murlocs are a much less secure build to be using before they get their late-game going than Beasts, and even a little less secure than Dragons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joran View Post
    For high-level streamers, they have to go for higher placements to maintain their MMR; that's why they value scaling end-game tribes. They only gain MMR at 3rd place and an 8th place loses twice the MMR as a win. An example would be if they have a good mid-game comp of Juggler + demons and high health and triple into a tier 5 and get offered Voidlord (which makes their comp immediately stronger) or Brann (gives them a scaling win condition), they'll probably choose Brann. Then they'll take small wins or losses while amassing the pieces to make the transition, rather than waiting to get outscaled.
    This is the precise opposite of everything I've ever heard about how high-ranked play, which is that they almost always go for midrange comps unless they've high-rolled. Because if you value rank, getting a team that will secure you a top 4 finish is far more important than taking any risks to try and get to 1st, because they can backfire and result in lost rank. Also doesn't seem to represent the kind of play I see in the ~8.5k range (which my understanding is should be indistinguishable from higher rank games due to the small player pool meaning that everyone above at 7-8k rank gets paired with each other pretty indiscriminately), where most teams that wind up in the top 4 are Beasts, Mechs, or Demons. Ocassionally something else crops up, and none of the other tribes (nor Menagerie) are completely unheard of, but they're certainly noticeably rarer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joran View Post
    Pirates feel really bad at the moment; the days of them smacking for 20 in the midgame are gone since there's no Cannon and they changed Nat Pagle's ability.
    Cannon had nothing to do with Pirates. It worked with everything, not just them, and its synergy with the tier-1 deathrattle Pirate was only particularly potent earlier on. I'm referring to once they've put together a team including multiple in-battle buff minions (Ripsnarl Captain and Dread Admiral Eliza) and a few bigger pirates (Salty Looter, Goldgrubber, a buff-up Goliath or Hogger, etc), and suddenly their opponents can't kill most of their minions because they keep gaining health. Combined with the fact that most of the pirates that they're using at that point are higher tavern tier, they hit crazy hard once that comes together, and while it's a high-roll it can and does come together earlier than the late-game comps. Hell, I pulled that off myself just a week or so ago: playing Reno I tripled something into a Hogger the turn I went to tavern 4. Immediately hero powered on it, transitioned into Pirates, and proceeded to stomp on people for the next few turns until I won the game on turn 12 or 13 because of how badly I'd been destroying people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Speaking of mechs, they're finally getting rid of Mecharoo! The worst minion in Battlegrounds has finally been removed. It's been replaced with Micro Mummy.

    Micro Mummy still doesn't beat most other tier 1 minions, but it does draw with a lot more of them. The bonus attack it provides adds much needed early scaling to mechs to allow them to get some decent attack on minions other than Deflect-o-Bot. It's also a unit that is actually good to Golden, instead of the whopping +1/+1 bonus the Mecharoo got.

    I don't think it will be enough to make Mechs competitive late game, but it solidifies their position as a 4th place midgame comp.
    For any unaware, this patch, scheduled for the 8th, is what this is referring to. Battlegrounds changes are:

    - New "Battlegrounds parties" option, allowing you to que up for ranked with up to 4 friends, or have a private Battlegrounds match with 5-8 friends.
    - Micro Mummy replaces Mecharoo as a tier 1 minion.
    - Pack Leader nerfed: now a 2/3 that gives Beasts you play +2 attack (so loses 1 attack and gives 1 less attack).
    - Three new heroes being introduced.
    --- Lord Barov: Hero power is 1 gold. Guess which player will win their next combat. If they win, get three Coins.
    --- Jandice Barov: Hero power is 0 gold. Swap a friendly non-golden minion with a random one in Bob's tavern.
    --- Forest Warden Omu: Passive hero power. After you upgrade Bob's tavern, gain 2 gold this turn only.

    Personally, like the Micro Mummy for Mecharoo swap, although I don't know how much it'll matter since Micro Mummy is still a pretty low-impact minion, not that much better than Mecharoo. Pack Leader nerf... eh, I kind of wish they'd just reverted the tier swap of him and Rat Pack, but okay, we'll see if this nerfs Beasts enough that they're no longer clearly the top tribe.

    As far as the new heroes go, I'm pretty wary of Lord Barov personally, but it's hard to say how good he is without being totally clear on how that power works (are you guessing from all eight players? You and your opponent? A random set of 3?). Jandice looks pretty good, she can re-use battlecries by using that hero power on one that she's found, which is particularly great with Menagerie Mug/Jug or mass Murloc buffs - or just swap a bad minion she had to take earlier in the game for a better one to help stabilize a bit better in the early game. Omu basically seems like better Bartendotron - so, kind of dull, but probably decent.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    I believe Lord Barov's hero power gives you a prompt, akin to the Discover one, with three players to place bets on. Then you select one to place your bet.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by heronbpv View Post
    I believe Lord Barov's hero power gives you a prompt, akin to the Discover one, with three players to place bets on. Then you select one to place your bet.
    If that turns out to be the case, I would strongly suspect that he's terrible. Getting three random people out of eight means it's entirely possible that none of your options will be people who win their games, much less anybody you have reason to think will win. With ties being a thing there's not even a guarantee of four winners and four losers per round, much less you being able to predict who the winner will be out of the options given. And in order to even try you need to spend a gold. Yeah, doesn't sound worth it to me. Sure, sometimes you'll be offered the obviously-OP early game hero (Lich King) at a stage where they're a safe bet, or maybe you'll be offered someone who you can check and see is on a major winstreak and thus a safer bet, but outside of that, it'd be a risk with no guarantee that a payoff will even be possible.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    This is the precise opposite of everything I've ever heard about how high-ranked play, which is that they almost always go for midrange comps unless they've high-rolled. Because if you value rank, getting a team that will secure you a top 4 finish is far more important than taking any risks to try and get to 1st, because they can backfire and result in lost rank. Also doesn't seem to represent the kind of play I see in the ~8.5k range (which my understanding is should be indistinguishable from higher rank games due to the small player pool meaning that everyone above at 7-8k rank gets paired with each other pretty indiscriminately), where most teams that wind up in the top 4 are Beasts, Mechs, or Demons. Ocassionally something else crops up, and none of the other tribes (nor Menagerie) are completely unheard of, but they're certainly noticeably rarer.
    High-level MMR players do mostly play the early 3-8 gold turns building the most stats and not trying to force a comp; one of the mistakes they say for early players is rolling too much early to try to fit their composition, rather than making the biggest stats.

    High-ranked play is a balancing act between tempo plays (trying to maximize your stats now) and scaling plays (trying to maximize your stats later). So, they'll play for stats most of the time, but are using that time to find a direction that the comp can transition to a late game build. Sometimes the direction doesn't come together or they're so low that they instead play for maximum survival and minimize the MMR loss.

    Asking the question "What's the worst tribe?" at least answered by Victor seemed to be "What comp do I see win the least?" When he was answering with Pirates, he said they could still win with Golden Hogger, but otherwise seemed weak. For Demons, I'd assume it's because Juggler Demon doesn't scale as well and Big Demons is harder to build and can't be transitioned into later.

    It also helps the Beasts and Dragons have the "I'm forcing this" in Mama Bear and Kalecgos. If you get them early enough, you're dropping your comp and going either straight beasts or straight dragons. For Murlocs, it's Brann. It helps for Murlocs that the early tier 1 and 2 Murlocs are strong, so that a lot of players will have at least 1 Murloc for that really early Brann, then they can evaluate if they want to go Menagerie or Murlocs. The tier 5 and 6 Pirates aren't good enough for me to want to pick over most choices, unless I already have Pirates.

    Cannon had nothing to do with Pirates. It worked with everything, not just them, and its synergy with the tier-1 deathrattle Pirate was only particularly potent earlier on. I'm referring to once they've put together a team including multiple in-battle buff minions (Ripsnarl Captain and Dread Admiral Eliza) and a few bigger pirates (Salty Looter, Goldgrubber, a buff-up Goliath or Hogger, etc), and suddenly their opponents can't kill most of their minions because they keep gaining health. Combined with the fact that most of the pirates that they're using at that point are higher tavern tier, they hit crazy hard once that comes together, and while it's a high-roll it can and does come together earlier than the late-game comps. Hell, I pulled that off myself just a week or so ago: playing Reno I tripled something into a Hogger the turn I went to tavern 4. Immediately hero powered on it, transitioned into Pirates, and proceeded to stomp on people for the next few turns until I won the game on turn 12 or 13 because of how badly I'd been destroying people.
    Scallywag (the 2/1 deathrattle Pirate) + Cannon was a very strong early game. The Ogre (2/8 taunt) also had some synergy with the cannon. Scallywags + Cannon felt like a won early game a lot of the time.

    Sure, I've taken a ton of damage from a Ripsnarl + pirates bunch, but it does seem to be happening less than before. Maybe because Pirates used to be locked in, that more people would high-roll Pirates more often. Pack Leader + Mama Bear being a tier down may mean people are more willing to roll over Pirates and buy more Beasts and the Beasts are larger and harder to value trade.

    I may also still be salty about that time I had two buffed Goliaths, a golden Ripsnarl and an Eliza and felt like king of the world, up until my Goliaths ran into a Divine Shielded Amalgadon and I placed 6th.

    For any unaware, this patch, scheduled for the 8th, is what this is referring to. Battlegrounds changes are:
    - New "Battlegrounds parties" option, allowing you to que up for ranked with up to 4 friends, or have a private Battlegrounds match with 5-8 friends.
    I wonder what this change is going to do to high-level Battlegrounds. There already some talk about people trying to join a group of 4 and coordinating with each other to try to maximize each other's placement at the expense of the other people in the lobby. It seems like it's going to be much harder for a single person to maintain a top ranking.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    If that turns out to be the case, I would strongly suspect that he's terrible. Getting three random people out of eight means it's entirely possible that none of your options will be people who win their games, much less anybody you have reason to think will win. With ties being a thing there's not even a guarantee of four winners and four losers per round, much less you being able to predict who the winner will be out of the options given. And in order to even try you need to spend a gold. Yeah, doesn't sound worth it to me. Sure, sometimes you'll be offered the obviously-OP early game hero (Lich King) at a stage where they're a safe bet, or maybe you'll be offered someone who you can check and see is on a major winstreak and thus a safer bet, but outside of that, it'd be a risk with no guarantee that a payoff will even be possible.
    Depends on how good the payoff is. If you get 3 coins that work like Lich Bazwhatever's, so you can spend them immediately or on later turns, that's a pretty significant boon. Is it worth the risk and cost to try it early? Mmmmaybe, I'm not sure, but it's definitely not a useless prize.
    Last edited by Eurus; 2020-09-08 at 11:42 AM.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Note: For those playing now, don't triple Micro Mummy, it will only lead to pain, suffering, and crashes.

    Jandice is apparently putting tokens into the pool, but maybe they'll fix that.

    Also, Jandice Barov when she swaps a minion into the tavern, the minion keeps the buffs. That means Pogos, Battlemasters, Amalgadons are going to be able to get their battlecries off every turn, which seems kind of broken.

    Edit: RIP Micro Mummy for now; they're removing it and waiting for a fix.
    Last edited by Joran; 2020-09-08 at 02:52 PM.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Yeeeah, this Jandice Pogo-Hoppers thing seems a little busted.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    Yeeeah, this Jandice Pogo-Hoppers thing seems a little busted.
    I quite like it personally. Though I've only gotten it once (3 times offered Jandice, first two times mechs were banned. I was very sad).

    But then I also enjoyed Bran pogo shenanigans. I just like anything that lets me reliably end up with a minion bigger than 100/100. My one nice Jandice run, I goldened my pair of pogos on the very last turn for a 300/300 pogo that solod my opponent's kalecgos board. It was wonderful.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    I don't like Jandice pogohoppers. It is cool they always have a space open and you can use battle cries over and over (The card generators with brann actually has such interesting possibilities with you making money and having 4 chances to get a triple) but 2 mana +15/+15 on a pogohopper seems absurd and that might actually be conservative depending on your luck and if you get brann.

    Just about any other card it would be ok in my eyes if it kept the buffs except pogohoppers (At least beast buffs are limited in their bonus and Amalgams are actually not that good to play over and over once you get all the important evolutions).

    For now it is not common enough to really be boring to see at least so there is some joy in seeing a pogohopper build being used.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    I quite like it personally. Though I've only gotten it once (3 times offered Jandice, first two times mechs were banned. I was very sad).

    But then I also enjoyed Bran pogo shenanigans. I just like anything that lets me reliably end up with a minion bigger than 100/100. My one nice Jandice run, I goldened my pair of pogos on the very last turn for a 300/300 pogo that solod my opponent's kalecgos board. It was wonderful.
    I would say that's pretty OP, considering that Janice is pretty much guaranteed to get a 100+ hopper with very little effort if Mechs are available.

    EDIT: Lord Barov is pretty fun, by the way. He picks two heroes who are going to fight each other next round, and you pick one of them. If you win, you get three coin cards that you can play whenever. There's a decent chance that the victor will be obvious, either because it's someone OP or they're up against a dead player, and worst case it's still a 50/50 guess. (Okay, they could tie, but you win 3 coins for paying 1 so the expected return still isn't bad)
    Last edited by Eurus; 2020-09-12 at 02:02 PM.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    So for the past 2 weeks or so, Hearthstone has become completely unplayable for me due to random connection drops. Even with a stable, solid wireless connection I am losing connection every 10-15 seconds, then reconnecting, then dropping a few seconds later, then reconnecting. ON the rare opportunity I last through a match without simply dropping entirely, it's still taking 3 times as long and I always lose from lack of responsiveness. What is going on and how can I fix it?

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Ragnaros in battlegrounds is insane

    i have gotten him 3 times and gotten 3 1st place with him

    make that 5 for 5 now(though i admit i got lucky vs a god stats pogo barov by buying 2 poison spores)
    Last edited by otakuryoga; 2020-10-01 at 12:07 AM.
    Ponies not only make ME want to be a better person than I was before they entered my life, they make me want to HELP OTHERS be better people too.

    And that is a GOOD thing by any definition.

    full size avatar

  29. - Top - End - #449
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    ElfRogueGirl

    Join Date
    Jun 2018

    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    The poison minions that have been added to the battleground are a lifesaver. It's so good to have a counter to boards with unstoppable 100 HP-strong taunters.
    Last edited by Resileaf; 2020-10-01 at 01:52 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #450
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Eurus's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Elementals seem interesting. When I've been playing them they seem pretty dependent on early luck with party elementals or a golden molten rock or something, to build up a snowball over time. I haven't had much success with trying an elementals pivot later game, but maybe I'm doing it wrong.

    Jandice is still OP.
    Avatar by araveugnitsuga.

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