Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

[The Glyphstone]

Good news: changes to the rewards system are happening (at an unspecified time later this month). The biggest one being that Tavern Brawl and Battlegrounds will now count for all quests where they theoretically could. There'll still be some where Battlegrounds won't work - "play X games with X classes" comes to mind, for instance - but otherwise, if it's possible it would work, it should.

Other changes that are happening: a reduction to the amount of experience needed to level up (roughly 20% overall they say), removal of some quests that were considered too hard (apparently some involving legendary cards or arena), small tweaks to the numbers on other quests, increase the reward for 800 xp daily quests to 900 xp, changing how the level 51+ rewards work (there's now more levels that you'll gain faster but they give less gold each), and... an extra 50 gold added to the rewards on levels 27 and 30, for some reason. Yeah, that's a weirdly tiny and precise one that I don't entirely get, but it's there.

Also, that weekly quest to win ranked games... goes from 7 wins to 5. No mention of allowing it to be re-rolled, though, so those of us who don't play ranked will presumably still have it just collecting dust until they decide to allow that.

Also, one-time bonus for logging in starting on December 15th of 5 Darkmoon packs and 500 gold.

So yeah, Battlegrounds counting for quests at long last, hallelujah! That's the best news this game's had since Battlegrounds launched last year, as far as I'm concerned.

Hallelujah indeed, though for me its Brawls as I already noted. Happy news for everyone!

[zlefin]

Are they putting in a thing that auto-progresses your exp line? I hate having to manually click on each reward to get it.

sounds like good QoL improvements;

[Zevox]

Are they putting in a thing that auto-progresses your exp line? I hate having to manually click on each reward to get it.

No mention of it, though I agree that they should. I have no idea why they designed it like that in the first place, they've never had a system like that in the game before. Same for the achievements, actually - while I don't care about them, I find the little icon that's supposed to alert you that you've completed some annoying, so I keep going in there to "claim" ones that I complete anyway in order to get rid of that icon, and it would be nice if that could change.

[Eurus]

Trying to beat late run warlocks in duels feels like an exercise in futility. Did they draw their pumping lifesteal demon? Do they have half a dozen felosophies? Have fun with that!

[Rynjin]

It's why I've completely begged off Heroic Duels. Warlock isn't unbeatable, but you have to try a whole lot harder than they do.

Duels is a really fun concept, but they really need to balance the classes against each other properly. The "cyclic balance" Blizzard loves so much doesn't work for a game mode like this.

[Zevox]

It's why I've completely begged off Heroic Duels. Warlock isn't unbeatable, but you have to try a whole lot harder than they do.

Duels is a really fun concept, but they really need to balance the classes against each other properly. The "cyclic balance" Blizzard loves so much doesn't work for a game mode like this.

I wouldn't bet on "balance" ever working for a game mode like that, given it's explicitly based on giving you ludicrously OP things to play around with. Something will always end up being more OP than the other OP things.

[Eurus]

I wouldn't bet on "balance" ever working for a game mode like that, given it's explicitly based on giving you ludicrously OP things to play around with. Something will always end up being more OP than the other OP things.

True enough. I'd probably mind less if it weren't for the fact that I can't even play the OP thing because the only good Warlock treasure requires 20 epic scholomance cards and I am unlikely to ever get that many because I didn't play during that set.

[Rynjin]

I wouldn't bet on "balance" ever working for a game mode like that, given it's explicitly based on giving you ludicrously OP things to play around with. Something will always end up being more OP than the other OP things.

The issue isn't so much every OPTION needs to be balanced; part of the Dungeon Run modes' fun is because of the variety of things with varying usefulness.

It's specifically that Warlock, the class, has built-in synergies that trump what most other people are able to get. They can coast on the basic hero power synergies to 12 wins with relative ease, and essentially completely bypass the game of juggling the cards and treasures you get during the run.

Extraordinarily OP things should be relatively rare, making them memorable. If they can be achieved just from the basic 16 card deck and hero power you get, something fundamentally breaks.

[Zevox]

So, that Tavern Rewards update is out, along with a big Battlegrounds update. Oh, and some balance changes for those of you still playing the actual card game parts of the game.

The rewards update does appear to be working out for Battlegrounds - I completed the "Play 30 Minions" and "Play 10 Deathrattle Minions" quests doing just Battlegrounds today. So, hurrah!

The Battlegrounds update added three new heroes - the Old Gods besides Yog, since he was already in the game. Quick summary of them:
- C'Thun: 2 gold. At the end of your turn give a random minion +1/+1. Repeat for each time you've used this hero power previously.
- Y'shaarj: 2 gold. At the start of the fight, summon a random minion of your tavern tier. Keep it after the fight.
- N'Zoth: Start the game with a 1/1 Fish who gains the Deathrattles from any friendly deathrattle minion that dies.

I've played with Y'shaarj and C'Thun... and am iffy about both of them. Y'shaarj can definitely high-roll sometimes, and could be great if things go well enough for you to take him to tier 6 early, but the fact that many minions in Battlegrounds are valuable for battlecries and he can never let you benefit from those is a big problem for him. C'Thun, meanwhile, feels like he really needs to push the button every turn, but the random nature of his buffs means I was finding that doing so just wasn't letting me keep up in the mid-game. He can do well if you find a bunch of divine shield minions, but otherwise, doesn't seem great.

N'Zoth I haven't played with, but at a glance, he seems like the weakest of the bunch. That Fish of his needs other deathrattle minions to die before it in order to get its benefit, and unless I'm badly mistaken he doesn't keep those deathrattles between battles. That feels like a benefit that's very hard to build around in a way that will win you games, unless you high-roll into exactly Gol'drin (the Fish is a beast). It might be able to do okay in the mid-game copying Spawn or Bomb deathrattles, maybe even Mechano-Egg, but I feel like if you don't end up on beasts, you'll end up selling it - in which case, wouldn't you rather just play some other hero?

They also added a bunch of new minions to the game, the names of which I have not memorized and I don't feel like going over right now. There is one, though, that I think is probably so OP it'll have to be removed: a tavern 4 minion that I believe starts as a 2/2, but has the effect "Whenever a friendly Taunt minion is attacked, gain +1/+1 permanently." So, yeah, if you find that, take it, buy a bunch of taunts, and it'll scale into the stratosphere naturally off buffs that you don't need to pay anything for - and as a bonus, you can take advantage of the tavern 5 taunt-buffer. I don't know what made them think that gaining permanent buffs from an in-battle trigger that could happen many times over the course of a battle was a good idea, but oh boy do I think it was not.

[Rodin]

So, that Tavern Rewards update is out, along with a big Battlegrounds update. Oh, and some balance changes for those of you still playing the actual card game parts of the game.

The rewards update does appear to be working out for Battlegrounds - I completed the "Play 30 Minions" and "Play 10 Deathrattle Minions" quests doing just Battlegrounds today. So, hurrah!

The Battlegrounds update added three new heroes - the Old Gods besides Yog, since he was already in the game. Quick summary of them:
- C'Thun: 2 gold. At the end of your turn give a random minion +1/+1. Repeat for each time you've used this hero power previously.
- Y'shaarj: 2 gold. At the start of the fight, summon a random minion of your tavern tier. Keep it after the fight.
- N'Zoth: Start the game with a 1/1 Fish who gains the Deathrattles from any friendly deathrattle minion that dies.

I've played with Y'shaarj and C'Thun... and am iffy about both of them. Y'shaarj can definitely high-roll sometimes, and could be great if things go well enough for you to take him to tier 6 early, but the fact that many minions in Battlegrounds are valuable for battlecries and he can never let you benefit from those is a big problem for him. C'Thun, meanwhile, feels like he really needs to push the button every turn, but the random nature of his buffs means I was finding that doing so just wasn't letting me keep up in the mid-game. He can do well if you find a bunch of divine shield minions, but otherwise, doesn't seem great.

N'Zoth I haven't played with, but at a glance, he seems like the weakest of the bunch. That Fish of his needs other deathrattle minions to die before it in order to get its benefit, and unless I'm badly mistaken he doesn't keep those deathrattles between battles. That feels like a benefit that's very hard to build around in a way that will win you games, unless you high-roll into exactly Gol'drin (the Fish is a beast). It might be able to do okay in the mid-game copying Spawn or Bomb deathrattles, maybe even Mechano-Egg, but I feel like if you don't end up on beasts, you'll end up selling it - in which case, wouldn't you rather just play some other hero?

They also added a bunch of new minions to the game, the names of which I have not memorized and I don't feel like going over right now. There is one, though, that I think is probably so OP it'll have to be removed: a tavern 4 minion that I believe starts as a 2/2, but has the effect "Whenever a friendly Taunt minion is attacked, gain +1/+1 permanently." So, yeah, if you find that, take it, buy a bunch of taunts, and it'll scale into the stratosphere naturally off buffs that you don't need to pay anything for - and as a bonus, you can take advantage of the tavern 5 taunt-buffer. I don't know what made them think that gaining permanent buffs from an in-battle trigger that could happen many times over the course of a battle was a good idea, but oh boy do I think it was not.

C'Thun is supposedly really powerful if you grab minions you're going to keep and never, ever sell them. If you push the button from turn 2 then you reach the point where you're getting the same stat bonuses as Ragnaros at about the same time as he activates his hero power, and the scaling just goes up from there. I haven't played him myself to see it in action, but both Kripp and Firebat seem convinced he's really strong.

N'Zoth indeed seems pretty trash. Best way to play him I've heard is to use the fish like you use the Curator's Amalgam - as an early unit that prevents you from taking chip damage. Eventually you sell it once you find your real comp.

The tavern 4 minion is a big bundle of stats, but it's not too far out there. You need a lot of taunts to make it scale well, and you need to get it early as well. I've tried transitioning into Taunts when I find him and most of the time I just die before his scaling takes off. I'd put it in about the same class as Goldgrubber and Wrathweaver - not OP because Poisonous exists. The card that's a much bigger concern is Elistra. Soaking 4 attacks and dealing 28 damage is devastating, and it only gets worse if you somehow buff it.

[Zevox]

C'Thun is supposedly really powerful if you grab minions you're going to keep and never, ever sell them. If you push the button from turn 2 then you reach the point where you're getting the same stat bonuses as Ragnaros at about the same time as he activates his hero power, and the scaling just goes up from there. I haven't played him myself to see it in action, but both Kripp and Firebat seem convinced he's really strong.

I've seen Kripp's videos of it, and maybe there's something there, but I was trying to play him in much the same way, and getting much worse results, so I'm really not sure about him. Haven't gotten offered him lately to try any further though.

N'Zoth indeed seems pretty trash. Best way to play him I've heard is to use the fish like you use the Curator's Amalgam - as an early unit that prevents you from taking chip damage. Eventually you sell it once you find your real comp.

Who sells Curator's Amalgam? Unless you're desperate, that thing's a divine shield poisonous minion waiting to happen, no matter what your comp is. Unless you picked curator despite Murlocs and/or Mechs being banned, anyway, in which case, well, that was your mistake. If Amalgam weren't so universally useful I wouldn't want to play Curator, either, personally.

The tavern 4 minion is a big bundle of stats, but it's not too far out there. You need a lot of taunts to make it scale well, and you need to get it early as well. I've tried transitioning into Taunts when I find him and most of the time I just die before his scaling takes off. I'd put it in about the same class as Goldgrubber and Wrathweaver - not OP because Poisonous exists. The card that's a much bigger concern is Elistra. Soaking 4 attacks and dealing 28 damage is devastating, and it only gets worse if you somehow buff it.

Eh, maybe. I saw him get pretty out of control a few times back on that first day of playing, so I was worried, but he hasn't been as nuts since. I disagree about Elistra though, she's perfect as a tavern 6 tech card, just the type of new card I enjoy seeing and using. Doesn't go into everything, and more useful against some builds than others, but a solid pickup without needing to be buffed (especially important given she has no minion type and is thus extremely hard to buff). Love her.

One I'm becoming more iffy about is the new Faceless Taverngoer. Forget if it's tavern 4 or 5, but it's the one that transforms into a copy of a minion in Bob's tavern when you play it. If you can afford to float one or two, they lead to extremely easy triples. I just played a game as Omu where I grabbed a couple as I was taverning up, then found a Kalecgos on my first roll after reaching tavern 6. Instant golden Kalecgos - who also discovered me another Kalecgos. And I already had a couple of Dragons in my comp, and there was also a Nadina in that tavern. Yeah, pretty sure that was my best Dragon run ever. The funny part was that two other players who wound up in the top 4 also went Dragons, but they only had a single Kalecgos each, so, yeah, it was no contest when we fought.

But anyway, yeah, enabling super powerful triples that easily might just be a big problem in itself. We'll see how things play out over time I suppose, but for now, I'm going to be pretty eager to grab those Faceless Taverngoers whenever I can.

[The Glyphstone]

Since you are the local Battleground expert, Zevox, where does one go to learn the intricacies of Battlegrounds strategy for dummies? I know how it works, but not how to actually be good at it - the top-4 players who end up with giant walls of 80/80 Poisonous Divine Shield Windfury Taunting Reborn whatevers are clearly doing something above and beyond the base mechanics. Preferably a written/text guide over a video, but if video is all that's available so be it.

[Zevox]

Since you are the local Battleground expert, Zevox, where does one go to learn the intricacies of Battlegrounds strategy for dummies? I know how it works, but not how to actually be good at it - the top-4 players who end up with giant walls of 80/80 Poisonous Divine Shield Windfury Taunting Reborn whatevers are clearly doing something above and beyond the base mechanics. Preferably a written/text guide over a video, but if video is all that's available so be it.

Eh, "expert" is certainly taking it too far. Battlegrounds might be the only part of the game I still play (and thank heavens for that recent quests change, as it does seem to be making that entirely practical), but I still play a lot less than a lot of people. I'm more of an occasionally opinionated enthusiast.

And unfortunately I can't point you to anything like that. What I know about playing Battlegrounds I learned from doing so, and from watching others do so in Youtube videos. For what it's worth, I'd say that I found Kripparian's the most helpful of those for learning new things and interesting intricacies or hero-specific strategies, since he tends to break down whatever part of the game he wants to highlight at the start of each of his videos and explain his reasoning behind odd decisions during the game, but they're still not exactly generalized tutorials, and you'd be watching a whole lot of them to learn things if you tried to use them strictly for that purpose.

I can say that in general, I think a lot of it comes down to finding the units that you can build a team comp around, and going from there. You're always just sort of taking whatever the best minions you're offered are at first, except maybe with a select few heroes like Ysera, but you need to end up in something coherent to have a chance of winning. A lot of those are tavern 5 cards (Brann, Lightfang, Mama Bear, Hogger, Nomi), so either getting a triple on tavern 4 or going to tavern 5 as quickly as you can will often help you find that direction. There are ones to watch for earlier than that though - mostly Mechs (Deflect-o-Bot and Iron Sensei on 3) and Demons (Wrathweaver on 1, Juggler on 3), though those are teams that only tend to get you to top 4, not often to first place. Getting exactly Iron Sensei and one other mech early can be used to carry you for a while even if you don't go full Mechs though (in fact, it's generally probably better that way), possibly forming the foundation of a later Menagerie comp, or just to fuel a Divine Shield + Taunt minion you'll use for a while and maybe eventually ditch, maybe not, depending on what you go for and how things go.

Also, a lot of it can be in developing an understanding for how strong you are versus how strong you should be at a given stage of the game. If you're stronger than average and understand that, that can let you tavern up faster, which makes it easier to end up finding the pieces to make a strong team.

[Rynjin]

Since you are the local Battleground expert, Zevox, where does one go to learn the intricacies of Battlegrounds strategy for dummies? I know how it works, but not how to actually be good at it - the top-4 players who end up with giant walls of 80/80 Poisonous Divine Shield Windfury Taunting Reborn whatevers are clearly doing something above and beyond the base mechanics. Preferably a written/text guide over a video, but if video is all that's available so be it.

WHAT you get is largely up to luck, but knowing how to make the most use of what you happen to find is the skill that takes the most tuning for Battlegrounds. A good first step is knowing what every card in the game does (so you can grab them quickly, as turns can get very complex and time consuming later), and how your hero might lend you toward certain synergies rather than others. Eg. Jandice Barov is excellent at using Battlecry minions to get repeated value over time, while Ragnaros can basically coast on generally good minions that get passively buffed by +3/+3 every turn with his hero power.

From what I understand, Tier 6 is actually the "power tier" again after the last few patches bolstered out the roster with minions like Elistra and Amalgodon, whereas before getting to T6 was more a luxury than anything.

[The Glyphstone]

Thats a big part of what I'd have to learn, stuff like when to push tavern upgrades or when to sell minions versus keeping them, etc. There just seems to be so much intricacy between 'able to Play' and 'good'.

[Resileaf]

It's also sometimes about accepting that the game just doesn't want you to win this particular match. Like when you decide to play beast since you got an early gold hyena, but the tavern just doesn't have any beasts in it even though you're the only person with beasts on your board.

No I'm not bitter, you're bitter!

[Hamste]

The leveling is the really hard part. It is important to remember who you are playing as. For example your goal as Reno is to get a tier 5 minion as soon as possible (They have the most build definers and such if you get to 4 and then triple into a 5 it basically dictates your build) while others like the demon hunter who are rewarded for staying on tier 2 for awhile trying to gather elementals because their ability is better there. It is also somewhat common to skip leveling on 2 for specific heroes (Millhouse obviously but also heroes like Rag who need to kill early)

You also need to pay attention to who you are fighting and how well you are doing. If you fight a ghost you almost always level and if you have won a few in a row or have a set up triple trying to level is generally a good idea.

Also when going for a build consider what tier you need for it and if you need for rush it. Mechs will probably consistently get you 4th or 3rd place and you won't have tier up above 4 until later (At which point you are aiming for an elemental mix with rag. Rag fits in just about anything that likes buffs but the divine shields of mechs just go so well with Rag). Murlocs like tier 5 (Almost entirely because of brann) and tier 3 but tier 6 is almost useless and tier 4 is only a marginal increase in power on the turn you get it (seeing you probably are not grabbing toxfins until later and while Primalfin is amazing it's real power isn't unlocked until you get brann). Elementals love tier 2, 3 and 6, if you are going for a rag you have to level aggressively as it is scooped up for a multitude of builds. There are others but those are the really big ones I could think of off the top of my head. You generally want to get to the important tiers for your build before the other person also going for that build does particularly if those minions aren't resold).

If you don't know what you are doing yet, tier 5 is just a good tier to aim for.

[Zevox]

Thats a big part of what I'd have to learn, stuff like when to push tavern upgrades or when to sell minions versus keeping them, etc. There just seems to be so much intricacy between 'able to Play' and 'good'.

Yeah, there is, for sure. And it's something where you need to be responsive to the current game conditions, so there's few easy answers to offer. There's plenty of tips that could be given for individual heroes' varying play styles - why it's best to stay on tavern 1 until turn 4 with Rafaam or Maev, versus the more rapid taverning rate of Omu, or why Aranna may prefer to just stay on tavern 2 for a very long time, for instance - but little that's always applicable.

Trying to think of general advice on that, well, most heroes do have a set time they want to tavern up during the initial period at least. Tavern 2 on turn 2 (4 gold), tavern 3 on turn 5 (7 gold), tavern 4 on turn 7 (9 gold), because those curve out nicely with your gold amounts (you'll have 3 gold exactly left over to buy something with when you go to tavern 3 and 4). Some will want to vary from this, such as the ones I mentioned earlier, but most go this way most of the time. When to go to tavern 5 and 6 is more of a judgment call, because at that point in the game, taverning up is more of a risk as people may be starting to get strong. So you want to be confident you're strong enough to not get murdered in the coming match, since taverning up is a big gold commitment, so you probably won't get much stronger that turn than you were. And it's an important judgment call, since a lot of build-defining minions are on those tiers.

Another more general bit of advice: if you think you can manage it, try to save early triple opportunities for the turn you go to tavern 4 (i.e. freeze the third and buy the other minions on offer instead), so that you can discover a tavern 5 minion. Obviously this may not always be possible, but you should seriously consider whether it is when you get the opportunity, because discovering a minion from tavern 5 is typically a lot more powerful than discovering one from lower tavern tiers, as you're a lot more likely to stumble across something that will define your build.

It's also sometimes about accepting that the game just doesn't want you to win this particular match. Like when you decide to play beast since you got an early gold hyena, but the tavern just doesn't have any beasts in it even though you're the only person with beasts on your board.

No I'm not bitter, you're bitter!

Eh, to be fair, you really shouldn't commit to Beasts just off a gold Hyena. Leverage it for early power if at all possible, certainly, but odds are that even if you end on Beasts, you'll want to sell it. Late-game Beasts really needs to be a bunch of Mama Bear-buffed minions at a minimum to compete, and probably at least part of the Macaw + Gol'drinn + Baron combo to have a shot at 1st.

Really, aside from Wrath Weaver demons or hero-specific builds like Aranna Elementals, there's little you should truly commit to before getting to tavern 4+ and seeing what you get offered up there. Maybe if you've just gotten the god-roll of early Murlocs or something, but even then if you don't find Brann or Bagurgles within a couple of turns once you get to 5, it might be worth seeing what you do get and trying a transition of some sort.

[The Glyphstone]

In a mildly amusing Brawl moment, my Cenarion Ward gave me a Turalyon the Tenured. Turns out the 5/85 Pinata boss is not immune to being transformed into a 3/3.

[Zevox]

So I'm curious, what's everyone think of the Darkmoon Prizes in Battlegrounds, now that we've had a while with them? Both asking which you think are good/bad, and a broader "do you like them?" sort of thing.

As far as quality goes, I think I'll put my thoughts on that in spoiler, since I'm sure it'll be long.

Spoiler: Prizes Analysis

Show

Tier 1 Prizes (Turn 4): Probably the most important of the bunch, since it's the one set you're guaranteed to see unless you concede out. In general, I think the best here is Might of Stormwind, the one that gives your board +1/+1. It's immediate power, a much bigger power boost than its competitors in that area, works great with tokens, and if you think it puts you enough ahead it can facilitate more rapid taverning up. When I'm offered that one, I have a very hard time coming up with a reason not to take it.

Its best competition I think are New Recruit (add a minion to the tavern for the rest of the game) and Pocket Change (2 coins). New Recruit is for when you're comfortable with how your early game is going and are playing the long game, while Pocket Change is flexible, but its best use is likely facilitating more rapid taverning, by letting you tavern + buy on a turn when you otherwise couldn't.

For the rest, I like The Good Stuff (+1 health to all minions in Bob's tavern for the rest of the game) in the short term, but it's a small enough effect that it quickly ends up feeling like it isn't making a big difference, so I'm unsure of just how good it is. Gacha Gift (discover a tier 1 minion) and Big Banana (+2/+2 to one minion) are for when you need an immediate power boost but didn't get Might of Stormwind, and I think Gacha Gift is much better - I'd honestly call Big Banana the worst of the tier 1 prizes, I don't know if I've ever taken it. The last one is Rocking and Rolling (3 free refreshes), which honestly only looks appealing to me over many of the others with Millhouse, but at least it has that niche.

Tier 2 Prizes (Turn 8): Also pretty important since you'll usually see this turn unless you've just crashed and burned completely, and I think there's some clear winners and losers here. Personally, I usually most want to see Gruul Rules (+2/+2 to a minion per turn), The Bouncer (+5/+5 and taunt to a minion), or On The House (discover a minion of your tavern tier). The buffs are fairly self-explanatory I think - slap Gruul Rules on a divine shield or cleave minion, throw The Bouncer on whatever if you need a quick power boost to survive (or really need a taunt and haven't found a good one), they're just good. On the House is great because turn 8 is when you've just hit tavern 4 or 5 usually, and getting that makes it a lot less painful to tavern up again, grabbing a hopefully good tavern 5 or 6 minion right away at no additional cost.

Beyond them, The Unlimited Coin is always a solid, reasonable pick. Great Deal (reduce the cost of taverning by 2 per turn) is great if you're behind on taverning and/or don't think you can afford to just tavern up now, since it means your cost to tavern will drop by 3 per turn total, so in just a couple of turns it'll be dirt cheap, but is kind of pointless if you're already on tavern 5. Brann's Blessing (double your battlecries for a turn) is okay, I guess, depending on your build, but generally if you want that effect you're probably looking for a Brann anyway, and it'll feel really wasteful to pick it, then find him before you get a chance to use it.

The two real losers, I feel, are Time Thief (discover a minion from your last opponent's warband) and Evolving Tavern (replace all minions with ones 1 tier higher), with Evolving Tavern being the absolute worst. Time Thief basically has the problem of timing - turn 8 is just as people are starting to get coherent comps together, so the odds that your last opponent had something you really want to steal right then are not good. You could hold onto it for a few turns in the hopes of running into someone you will want to steal from, but that's a risk you don't need to take when you could just get a more generally useful option. And Evolving Tavern is just not good - too random since you first need a tavern with a bunch of minions from your current tier, and then you have to pay gold for the minions if you do evolve into anything you want. You're jumping through hoops just to make it maybe as good as On the House, if you're lucky, and you need to get really lucky for it to be better.

Tier 3 Prizes (Turn 12): You probably only see these if you're in the top 4 of the lobby (sometimes the top 2), so analysis of them matters less, but on the plus side, it doesn't feel like there's any losers here, though I do think there's a usually-clear best: Buy the Holy Light (give a minion Divine Shield). Which feels self-explanatory to me - Divine Shield is one of the most impactful things in Battlegrounds, so getting to put it on a minion you normally can't is a big deal, especially a cleave or poisonous one. You really need a very good reason to take any other prize over that one.

Beyond that, Top Shelf (discover a tier 6 minion), All that Glitters (make a random minion in Bob's tavern golden), and the Bananas are generally solid. Though I think that you take Top Shelf over All that Glitters most of the time, since All that Glitters being random means that you're usually just getting a discovered minion from it rather than hitting a minion you want the golden version of, which makes All that Glitters effectively a Top Shelf that costs you 2 gold (or 1 if you're Millhouse). Training Session (discover a new hero power) is great if you're a hero whose power is either a non-power (The Curator, N'Zoth), used up (Reno, AF Kay, Alexstraza, etc), or drops off heavily (Yogg, Lich Baz'hiel, Deathwing, etc) in the late-game - especially since if you discover George's hero power, it's perhaps the one thing that is actually better than just getting Buy the Holy Light in the first place. But it's also probably a bad choice if you're someone whose hero power is still good in the late-game, like Ragnaros, C'Thun, The Lich King, etc.

The other three are more niche, but good at what they do. Rat in a Cage (double a minion's attack) is for cleave minions, or secondarily divine shield ones. Repeat Customer (return a non-golden minion to your hand, give it +2/+2) is for re-using powerful battlecries (especially with a Brann), such as Primalfin or Annihilan Battlemaster. And Ice Block is for when you're pretty sure you're going to lose, but living an extra turn might mean you place higher.

Tier 4 Prizes (Turn 16): You very often don't even see these... which actually plays into why the few of them that aren't so appealing are that way. Because they're all very strong, but Open Bar (5 free refreshes per turn) and Discount (all minions cost 1 less gold) look a lot less appealing if you're probably expecting the game to end the very turn you get them. I don't think you ever take those two over the others as a result.

Otherwise, Give a Dog a Bone (+10/+10, divine shield, and windfury to one minion) is probably the default best for obvious reasons. Raise the Stakes (make a friendly minion Golden and return it to your hand) is amazing if you have a board that would benefit enough from it (Beasts are a big one here, since it can instantly golden a Gul'drin or Baron). Big Winner (discover another prize of all prior tiers) could get you another Buy the Holy Light or Training Session that might get you George's hero power, so that can be worth a shot. Fresh Tab (refresh your gold) is your best choice for just getting more refreshes/minions bought, beating out Open Bar and Discount since it's not intended to give you its value over time. And Argent Braggart... eh, admittedly a lot of comps probably don't need him, but hey, maybe you've somehow made it to turn 16 with a Big Demons or Goldgrubber comp, didn't get Give a Dog a Bone or Big Winner, and just want another giant dude. Hard to call him bad, but he is probably the least appealing option outside of of the two loser choices.

As for opinion on them on the whole, I'm kind of turn, personally. On the one hand, I like the extra dynamic and I like that a number of them do help players who are in a bad spot catch up (Great Deal if you're behind on taverning, for instance) - but on the other, I can't help but suspect that they're contributing to a pattern I'm noticing, of people just seeming to be able to tavern up much faster and then high-roll and start murdering people quickly, which I don't think is good for the game. It sucks when you feel like you're doing quite well, but then someone comes at you with a nearly-complete Beast build on turn 8 or 9 and knocks you out in 6th place, so maybe that extra power they're providing is sometimes too much help to those who are doing well already.

Or maybe they could just do something to reduce the damage people take so you don't die so fast if someone high-rolls like that. Yeah, I'm coming to agree with Kripp that that's probably a thing that they ought to do.

[Eurus]

Honestly, Gacha Gift is one of my favorites, I'd usually take it over anything except Stormwind. Also, I will say that Ice Block almost always directly improves my end standing and I'll usually grab it if offered unless there's something really good. But then, I'm bad.

I agree that the potential to get whacked for 15-25 damage out of nowhere seems to add a lot of randomness, and maybe should be toned down. I've had a few games where it seems like my success or lack thereof is due to fighting the one crazy highroll comp at a bad time, or managing to avoid them until the end.

[Joran]

So I'm curious, what's everyone think of the Darkmoon Prizes in Battlegrounds, now that we've had a while with them? Both asking which you think are good/bad, and a broader "do you like them?" sort of thing.

As far as quality goes, I think I'll put my thoughts on that in spoiler, since I'm sure it'll be long.

Spoiler: Prizes Analysis

Show

Tier 1 Prizes (Turn 4): Probably the most important of the bunch, since it's the one set you're guaranteed to see unless you concede out. In general, I think the best here is Might of Stormwind, the one that gives your board +1/+1. It's immediate power, a much bigger power boost than its competitors in that area, works great with tokens, and if you think it puts you enough ahead it can facilitate more rapid taverning up. When I'm offered that one, I have a very hard time coming up with a reason not to take it.

Its best competition I think are New Recruit (add a minion to the tavern for the rest of the game) and Pocket Change (2 coins). New Recruit is for when you're comfortable with how your early game is going and are playing the long game, while Pocket Change is flexible, but its best use is likely facilitating more rapid taverning, by letting you tavern + buy on a turn when you otherwise couldn't.

For the rest, I like The Good Stuff (+1 health to all minions in Bob's tavern for the rest of the game) in the short term, but it's a small enough effect that it quickly ends up feeling like it isn't making a big difference, so I'm unsure of just how good it is. Gacha Gift (discover a tier 1 minion) and Big Banana (+2/+2 to one minion) are for when you need an immediate power boost but didn't get Might of Stormwind, and I think Gacha Gift is much better - I'd honestly call Big Banana the worst of the tier 1 prizes, I don't know if I've ever taken it. The last one is Rocking and Rolling (3 free refreshes), which honestly only looks appealing to me over many of the others with Millhouse, but at least it has that niche.

Tier 2 Prizes (Turn 8): Also pretty important since you'll usually see this turn unless you've just crashed and burned completely, and I think there's some clear winners and losers here. Personally, I usually most want to see Gruul Rules (+2/+2 to a minion per turn), The Bouncer (+5/+5 and taunt to a minion), or On The House (discover a minion of your tavern tier). The buffs are fairly self-explanatory I think - slap Gruul Rules on a divine shield or cleave minion, throw The Bouncer on whatever if you need a quick power boost to survive (or really need a taunt and haven't found a good one), they're just good. On the House is great because turn 8 is when you've just hit tavern 4 or 5 usually, and getting that makes it a lot less painful to tavern up again, grabbing a hopefully good tavern 5 or 6 minion right away at no additional cost.

Beyond them, The Unlimited Coin is always a solid, reasonable pick. Great Deal (reduce the cost of taverning by 2 per turn) is great if you're behind on taverning and/or don't think you can afford to just tavern up now, since it means your cost to tavern will drop by 3 per turn total, so in just a couple of turns it'll be dirt cheap, but is kind of pointless if you're already on tavern 5. Brann's Blessing (double your battlecries for a turn) is okay, I guess, depending on your build, but generally if you want that effect you're probably looking for a Brann anyway, and it'll feel really wasteful to pick it, then find him before you get a chance to use it.

The two real losers, I feel, are Time Thief (discover a minion from your last opponent's warband) and Evolving Tavern (replace all minions with ones 1 tier higher), with Evolving Tavern being the absolute worst. Time Thief basically has the problem of timing - turn 8 is just as people are starting to get coherent comps together, so the odds that your last opponent had something you really want to steal right then are not good. You could hold onto it for a few turns in the hopes of running into someone you will want to steal from, but that's a risk you don't need to take when you could just get a more generally useful option. And Evolving Tavern is just not good - too random since you first need a tavern with a bunch of minions from your current tier, and then you have to pay gold for the minions if you do evolve into anything you want. You're jumping through hoops just to make it maybe as good as On the House, if you're lucky, and you need to get really lucky for it to be better.

Tier 3 Prizes (Turn 12): You probably only see these if you're in the top 4 of the lobby (sometimes the top 2), so analysis of them matters less, but on the plus side, it doesn't feel like there's any losers here, though I do think there's a usually-clear best: Buy the Holy Light (give a minion Divine Shield). Which feels self-explanatory to me - Divine Shield is one of the most impactful things in Battlegrounds, so getting to put it on a minion you normally can't is a big deal, especially a cleave or poisonous one. You really need a very good reason to take any other prize over that one.

Beyond that, Top Shelf (discover a tier 6 minion), All that Glitters (make a random minion in Bob's tavern golden), and the Bananas are generally solid. Though I think that you take Top Shelf over All that Glitters most of the time, since All that Glitters being random means that you're usually just getting a discovered minion from it rather than hitting a minion you want the golden version of, which makes All that Glitters effectively a Top Shelf that costs you 2 gold (or 1 if you're Millhouse). Training Session (discover a new hero power) is great if you're a hero whose power is either a non-power (The Curator, N'Zoth), used up (Reno, AF Kay, Alexstraza, etc), or drops off heavily (Yogg, Lich Baz'hiel, Deathwing, etc) in the late-game - especially since if you discover George's hero power, it's perhaps the one thing that is actually better than just getting Buy the Holy Light in the first place. But it's also probably a bad choice if you're someone whose hero power is still good in the late-game, like Ragnaros, C'Thun, The Lich King, etc.

The other three are more niche, but good at what they do. Rat in a Cage (double a minion's attack) is for cleave minions, or secondarily divine shield ones. Repeat Customer (return a non-golden minion to your hand, give it +2/+2) is for re-using powerful battlecries (especially with a Brann), such as Primalfin or Annihilan Battlemaster. And Ice Block is for when you're pretty sure you're going to lose, but living an extra turn might mean you place higher.

Tier 4 Prizes (Turn 16): You very often don't even see these... which actually plays into why the few of them that aren't so appealing are that way. Because they're all very strong, but Open Bar (5 free refreshes per turn) and Discount (all minions cost 1 less gold) look a lot less appealing if you're probably expecting the game to end the very turn you get them. I don't think you ever take those two over the others as a result.

Otherwise, Give a Dog a Bone (+10/+10, divine shield, and windfury to one minion) is probably the default best for obvious reasons. Raise the Stakes (make a friendly minion Golden and return it to your hand) is amazing if you have a board that would benefit enough from it (Beasts are a big one here, since it can instantly golden a Gul'drin or Baron). Big Winner (discover another prize of all prior tiers) could get you another Buy the Holy Light or Training Session that might get you George's hero power, so that can be worth a shot. Fresh Tab (refresh your gold) is your best choice for just getting more refreshes/minions bought, beating out Open Bar and Discount since it's not intended to give you its value over time. And Argent Braggart... eh, admittedly a lot of comps probably don't need him, but hey, maybe you've somehow made it to turn 16 with a Big Demons or Goldgrubber comp, didn't get Give a Dog a Bone or Big Winner, and just want another giant dude. Hard to call him bad, but he is probably the least appealing option outside of of the two loser choices.

As for opinion on them on the whole, I'm kind of turn, personally. On the one hand, I like the extra dynamic and I like that a number of them do help players who are in a bad spot catch up (Great Deal if you're behind on taverning, for instance) - but on the other, I can't help but suspect that they're contributing to a pattern I'm noticing, of people just seeming to be able to tavern up much faster and then high-roll and start murdering people quickly, which I don't think is good for the game. It sucks when you feel like you're doing quite well, but then someone comes at you with a nearly-complete Beast build on turn 8 or 9 and knocks you out in 6th place, so maybe that extra power they're providing is sometimes too much help to those who are doing well already.

Or maybe they could just do something to reduce the damage people take so you don't die so fast if someone high-rolls like that. Yeah, I'm coming to agree with Kripp that that's probably a thing that they ought to do.

I greatly enjoy Battlegrounds completing quests. I had a play 10 Murlocs quest and knocked it out in 3 Battlegrounds games, which was also what it took to complete the finish top 4 + deal 1500 damage to enemy minions in Battlegrounds weekly quest.

Round 1:

The Good Stuff (+1 health permanently): I thought it'd be good too, but it's the worst, never pick it. Doesn't help your current tempo by enough compared to the others, and poor value.
Big Banana (+2/+2): Yeah, never needed to pick it. I can see edge cases like AFK hitting a Divine Shield Minion you know you're keeping, but haven't encountered a time to use it yet.

The rest are dependent on what you need: tempo (stats on the board ASAP) or value, but all are pretty good as you covered.

I like Gacha Gift (discover tier 1 minion), especially if my board isn't full yet or if I had to tier up on turn 3 (5 gold turn) because my shop was terrible; also great to hit a triple. Rocking and Rolling (3 free rolls) is great if you're offered a terrible shop and also to roll into a tier 3 minion on turn 5 (7 gold turn, usual tier up to 3 and buy a tier 2 minion). It's worth 3 gold of value if you use it well.

Round 2:

Covered them well, outside of undervaluing Brann's blessing. Brann's blessing is the most skill testing of the treasures, since you need to decide whether to pick it, what minions are worth it to pick, and how long to hold (can you save it for Amalgam?). It also makes Token + Khadgar transition strats one of the dominant strats in high elo Battlegrounds, since you can do it without tripling into Brann or leveling into 5.

I was able to pick up a Brann's Blessing + Khadgar + token when I had no direction and low on health. I then did a transition into 4 tier 5 minions to get a Brann + Burgurgle to save my run and finish 2nd.

I pick Gruul's (+2/+2 per turn) a lot because it's simple: I have a Divine Shield minion that I want to keep for a few turns and it takes the least amount of thinking on my slow computer.

I can't remember my opponent's board half the time, so Time Thief is not helpful (also makes Tess' hero power annoying to use, there are add-ons that show you, but I refuse to use them).

Evolving Tavern is the ultimate hail mary, but I agree, it's mostly a trap.

[The Glyphstone]

So I think I'm getting bored with Libram Paladin as my ladder deck. It's still giving me solid wins, since I only do my five required Ranked matches per month and I just barely hit Silver, but I think I'd like to mix it up. What is going to play very differently, style-wise, while not bankrupting me in terms of dust?

[Geno9999]

So I think I'm getting bored with Libram Paladin as my ladder deck. It's still giving me solid wins, since I only do my five required Ranked matches per month and I just barely hit Silver, but I think I'd like to mix it up. What is going to play very differently, style-wise, while not bankrupting me in terms of dust?

For cheap decks, Aggro has always been the name of the game:
Aggro Demon Hunter still sports a good winrate despite the previous nerfs.

Face Hunter boasts an even better winrate, and that list doesn't even have epics or legendaries to speak of. For an idea of how to upgrade it tho, most Face Hunters I've run into started running Rinling's Rifle and Knife Vendors.

Secret Mage finally gets to be a thing in Standard with Darkmoon Faire, though that does mean it'll demand getting copies of Occult Conjurers, Rigged Faire Game, and Sayge. In Wild, Secret Mage has always been powerful, Darkmoon Faire only made it even better. This version is slightly cheaper, needing only the copies of Occult Conjurers and Faire Game, but Sayge is still highly recommended.

Stealth Aggro Rogue is still strong, this list only needing Secret Passage and Greyheart Sage. Also now it doesn't have to worry as much about a 8/8 or 10/10 Edwin in the mirror as much.

[Zevox]

New patch apparently dropped today. There's something for everybody, it would appear. The Battlegrounds stuff isn't too big, but should have some impact:

- Two new heroes: Tickatus and Greybough (appears to be a Treant).
-- Tickatus' hero power is Darkmoon Prizes, exactly as we're familiar with. Guess he's where that mechanic is going once they turn it off as a general thing (they haven't yet). In the meantime, I assume he gets two prizes every time while it's still active for everyone, which could be kind of nuts. Very hard to guess how good he'll be once the prizes are no longer universal, though, but my gut says at least not bad.
-- Greybough's hero power is that he gives +1/+2 and taunt to any minions you summon mid-combat. So, he's a "make tokens ridiculous" hero, kind of like Deathwing. I think that'll be very strong in the early game (as long as you get minions that it works with, anyway), but fall off later - again, like Deathwing. Hard to say whether he's better or worse than Deathwing though.

- Two new minions: Soul Devourer and Ring Matron.
-- Soul Devourer is a tier 3 3/3 Demon with Battlecry: choose a friendly Demon. Remove it to gain its stats and 3 gold.
-- Ring Matron is, IIRC, an actual card, but for the sake of it: tier 4, 6/4 Demon with taunt and Deathrattle: summon two 3/2 Imps.

- Removed one minion: Floating Watcher.

So, the new heroes aside, they're mostly reworking Demons here. Not a bad idea, but hard to say how this'll work out. Watcher was one of their big guys, and while they might well like no longer being incentivized to keep inflicting self-damage via Wrathweaver when they could get a Mal'ganis, lack of that big guy might be a big blow. Soul Devourer might be able to replace it, but it's hard to say how much that'll actually do to boost the faction's power level, since we haven't seen anything quite like it before. I guess they do have Bigfernal now too, and Ring Matron has some obvious synergy there, but those are generally harder to grow than Watchers were. I don't know, we'll see how it pans out I suppose.

As far as the new heroes go, can't say I like Greybough (I've never liked Deathwing), but I guess it'll be nice to have Tickatus around once the Darkmoon Prizes leave. In the meantime though I feel like it'd be kind of boring to just get a second prize when you could have another hero power instead, personally, even if it may be powerful.

[Seerow]

Floating Watcher's been basically a bad pick since it got moved up a tier, because you're so unlikely to be able to get it while still having enough health to take advantage of it. Bigfernal basically completely replaced it in demon builds when it got introduced.

These two new demons are interesting, I hope they are together able to make the demon comp work again. Ring Matron I feel like is better than the 5 star demon that drops 3 1/3 demons, and the Soul Devourer seems like it will do pretty well if you have any medium-ish demons around. I expect Golden Soul Devourers to be pretty enormous.

[Resileaf]

I'm not a fan of the new cards released in the pack... Maybe it's just me, but they kind of feel like power creep.

[Rynjin]

Trump seems to think most of them are garbage, and I'm inclined to agree. None of them really excited me, save as being potentially good after the rotation.

[Geno9999]

Nitroboost oil is easily my favorite of the set, so easy to Corrupt and use for Weapon Rogue. Conjurer Biscuit is also reviving Cyclone Mage, and opens the door for combos. Though recently I have been trying a variation of Kiber's Spell Damage Shaman, and Ras Frostwhisper and the new Landslide gets crazy with Imprisoned Phoenix.

[Rynjin]

I'm primarily a Paladin/Hunter player, and they didn't get anything exciting. Paladin got one really GOOD card, but I'm already bored of Libram Paladin in its current state.