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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevesciguy View Post
    I disagree with that statement. I've been saving my gold for maybe a week, and already have enough for one of the wings. Add into that that I have almost two more weeks before the adventure actually releases, and a week between each of the wings going live, and I won't need to do anything more than complete daily quests to afford them.

    That seems entirely reasonable to me.
    One wing is the same cost as seven packs. In total, you're giving up 35 packs worth of gold from the current expansion (or saving towards the next) for this adventure. I find that completely unreasonable if this is in addition to the regular expansions, rather than in place of one of them as these adventures were the last time they gave out new cards.

    Even looking at the numbers you have, if it takes around a week to save up for a wing, that's a month and a week worth of gameplay in gold - and I'm assuming that's in gold that you get if you do every quest, nevermind if you aren't active enough and miss some. That, too, looks completely unreasonable to me for anyone who is relying mainly or entirely on gold to acquire their cards.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    One wing is the same cost as seven packs. In total, you're giving up 35 packs worth of gold from the current expansion (or saving towards the next) for this adventure. I find that completely unreasonable if this is in addition to the regular expansions, rather than in place of one of them as these adventures were the last time they gave out new cards.

    Even looking at the numbers you have, if it takes around a week to save up for a wing, that's a month and a week worth of gameplay in gold - and I'm assuming that's in gold that you get if you do every quest, nevermind if you aren't active enough and miss some. That, too, looks completely unreasonable to me for anyone who is relying mainly or entirely on gold to acquire their cards.
    4 wings, not 5.

    I think we'll have to agree to disagree. As someone who does mainly rely on gold to get my cards, I think it's fine and am quite excited to see more cards

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevesciguy View Post
    4 wings, not 5.
    No, it's 5. Read the news article about it - only the League of EVIL's version of the first wing is free, you need to pay for the League of Explorers' version.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    One wing is the same cost as seven packs. In total, you're giving up 35 packs worth of gold from the current expansion (or saving towards the next) for this adventure. I find that completely unreasonable if this is in addition to the regular expansions, rather than in place of one of them as these adventures were the last time they gave out new cards.

    Even looking at the numbers you have, if it takes around a week to save up for a wing, that's a month and a week worth of gameplay in gold - and I'm assuming that's in gold that you get if you do every quest, nevermind if you aren't active enough and miss some. That, too, looks completely unreasonable to me for anyone who is relying mainly or entirely on gold to acquire their cards.
    Smaller card infusions with reasonable costs is something we want to encourage. 35 set cards for 20 bucks or 2800 gold is a good deal. Imagine if 80 bucks or 10k gold (or some combination of the two) got you everything in a standard 135 card expansion. To keep up a full collection you have to pay more than that combined.

    I'm right there with you about the game being too expensive. But the solution there is reducing the costs of the regular expansions. Making the mid expansion pve stuff more rewarding and by far the most efficient use of gold/money in the game is not a bad thing.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    One wing is the same cost as seven packs. In total, you're giving up 35 packs worth of gold from the current expansion (or saving towards the next) for this adventure. I find that completely unreasonable if this is in addition to the regular expansions, rather than in place of one of them as these adventures were the last time they gave out new cards.

    Even looking at the numbers you have, if it takes around a week to save up for a wing, that's a month and a week worth of gameplay in gold - and I'm assuming that's in gold that you get if you do every quest, nevermind if you aren't active enough and miss some. That, too, looks completely unreasonable to me for anyone who is relying mainly or entirely on gold to acquire their cards.
    You also get specific cards, as far as I can tell, like One Night in Karazhan and such.

    That means that while you're giving up "28 packs worth of gold", roughly, you're getting 4 guaranteed Legendaries (the Hero cards) and I assume a number of epics.

    Going by the conversion that 1 pack = 100 gold which in turn = 100 dust (the average dust you get per pack past your first 20 packs or so), you're "giving up" 2800 dust/gold for a minimum guaranteed 6400 dust/gold value; and that's if the ONLY FOUR CARDS you get are the Hero cards.

    This doesn't include the inherent value of the adventure itself, which a lot of people (myself included) find enjoyable on its own merits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    No, it's 5. Read the news article about it - only the League of EVIL's version of the first wing is free, you need to pay for the League of Explorers' version.

    That still adds up to 4, my dude.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2020-01-09 at 07:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    No, it's 5. Read the news article about it - only the League of EVIL's version of the first wing is free, you need to pay for the League of Explorers' version.
    Yes, and then there are three chapters beyond that.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    35 packs worth of gold, but with a guarantee of X/Y/Z legendaries/epics/rares/. Looking at One Night in Karazhan it was 2800 gold (4x700) but gave 2930 dust not counting the free introductory wing. Which puts it at 1.0464 dust per gold compared to the average 1.0271 dust per gold from an average pack. That's just nominal disenchant values not the amount you save by getting the card you actually want instead of crafting it.

    Values from https://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Card_pack_statistics so they might be off, but I think your undervaluing expansion/ overvaluing packs.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Smaller card infusions with reasonable costs is something we want to encourage.
    You might - I certainly don't. I quite like card infusions being at the rate they've been at for as long as the game has existed, thanks. (Also, still disagree about the "reasonable cost" part.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    I'm right there with you about the game being too expensive. But the solution there is reducing the costs of the regular expansions.
    And if they ever do that, that may matter to me. I see no reason to believe they will though. Instead, they're effectively just making it more expensive by charging for the adventures, and now making those of us who could pass on them out of disinterest in single-player before pay for them anyway by putting new cards into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    You also get specific cards, as far as I can tell, like One Night in Karazhan and such.

    That means that while you're giving up "28 packs worth of gold", roughly, you're getting 4 guaranteed Legendaries (the Hero cards) and I assume a number of epics.

    Going by the conversion that 1 pack = 100 gold which in turn = 100 dust (the average dust you get per pack past your first 20 packs or so), you're "giving up" 2800 dust/gold for a minimum guaranteed 6400 dust/gold value; and that's if the ONLY FOUR CARDS you get are the Hero cards.
    Rarity and dust values mean nothing with cards you're guaranteed to get. They only matter when you need to either get the cards from a pack, where they determine the odds of doing so, or spend dust on them, where they determine the cost of making them. Moreover, all that gold value that you're giving up you wouldn't need to give up if there weren't new cards in this mid-expansion adventure. It just amounts to less cards from the expansion that you can afford to buy over time. And if it goes over well, which it probably will, it will become a regular thing, and thus you'll just have fewer cards from every expansion going forward. If you're like me and weren't ever accumulating all of the cards you'd like to to begin with, that looks pretty darned awful and unreasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    This doesn't include the inherent value of the adventure itself, which a lot of people (myself included) find enjoyable on its own merits.
    I don't. I got at least some enjoyment out of the old style of adventures, where the bosses were more like a puzzle you designed decks around, but Dungeon Run-style gameplay lost my interest very quickly. That's why I've been happily passing on the other new adventures since they started charging for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevesciguy View Post
    Yes, and then there are three chapters beyond that.
    *double-checks* Huh, it is only four wings, rather than the five it's pretty much always been before. Alright, my mistake there, but doesn't really help much to my mind. Twenty eight packs/a month of play time is still absurd to just be told you don't get towards the expansions anymore because they want to add this now.
    Last edited by Zevox; 2020-01-09 at 08:24 PM.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post

    Rarity and dust values mean nothing with cards you're guaranteed to get. They only matter when you need to either get the cards from a pack, where they determine the odds of doing so, or spend dust on them, where they determine the cost of making them. Moreover, all that gold value that you're giving up you wouldn't need to give up if there weren't new cards in this mid-expansion adventure. It just amounts to less cards from the expansion that you can afford to buy over time. And if it goes over well, which it probably will, it will become a regular thing, and thus you'll just have fewer cards from every expansion going forward. If you're like me and weren't ever accumulating all of the cards you'd like to to begin with, that looks pretty darned awful and unreasonable.
    Alternatively, if there are 5+ cards I want in an adventure, at least 1 of which is legendary and 1 (2 copies) is epic, it is SIGNIFICANTLY easier for me to get them with adventure than by buying packs from the expansion. I'm guaranteed them and bunch of extras, which I may or may not want. If I spent the gold on packs the odds are that I wouldn't get the specific cards I want and instead got a collection of dust to craft with. This would leave me with 400 dust for the same amount of gold, if I wanted two copies of another epic I would be down 400 dust.

    I would personally prefer it if EVERY expansion was just an adventure because then I'd actually get the stupid cards I want. For example, despite all the classic packs I've bought or be given over the life of the game, I still don't have the Black Knight, Ysera, Antonidas, or Tirion. All cards I want but have never pulled because the chance of me getting the cards I actually want from packs is so absurdly low. I do have Gruul, Lorewalker Cho, The Beast, King Mukka, and Deathwing because those are the useless legendaries I've gotten in packs but refuse to dust. If if I dusted all of the stupid legionaries, I'd get ... 1... card I actually wanted.

    There's basically no difference between this adventure and releasing more cards in the initial expansion. But even if you started saving just when the expansion dropped after 4 weeks you'd have 1400g for doing dailies (4*7*50). That leaves you needing 1400 gold to buy everything, or 14 packs worth of opportunity cost that you didn't get to buy in advance if you saved up. Essentially the opportunity cost is that you don't buy packs for month in advance. Alternatively, you wait a month after the adventure drops to get everything just like if it was a new expansion and you didn't get the cards you wanted in your initial pull. Realistically far less time than that because you should be winning games, getting the free 80g from friends occasionally, and rerolling for higher value quests.
    Last edited by Thomas Cardew; 2020-01-10 at 12:02 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Cardew View Post
    I would personally prefer it if EVERY expansion was just an adventure because then I'd actually get the stupid cards I want.
    I'd agree, but that's not going to happen. They've never made things cheaper and easier to get ahold of, and never will. They made it more expensive once before, when they stopped doing adventures altogether and replaced them with regular expansions, since adventures on the whole are less costly than an entire expansion. And right now, they're making them more expensive again, by adding an extra set of cards midway through an expansion that you need to buy in addition to the normal expansion, which costs a month worth of gold at one player's rough estimate. Because more things that you need to spend money or gold on inherently means either less gold for the regular content, or that you have to spend more real money.

    You all are clearly okay with that here. I am not. As a result, after this adventure hits, I will be sticking to Battlegrounds. Maybe if Control Warrior continues to be strong enough for use I'll keep playing that until rotation, but once that happens, I'm done with standard, because at this point, keeping up with their releases no longer looks reasonable to me.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Rarity and dust values mean nothing with cards you're guaranteed to get. They only matter when you need to either get the cards from a pack, where they determine the odds of doing so, or spend dust on them, where they determine the cost of making them. Moreover, all that gold value that you're giving up you wouldn't need to give up if there weren't new cards in this mid-expansion adventure. It just amounts to less cards from the expansion that you can afford to buy over time. And if it goes over well, which it probably will, it will become a regular thing, and thus you'll just have fewer cards from every expansion going forward. If you're like me and weren't ever accumulating all of the cards you'd like to to begin with, that looks pretty darned awful and unreasonable.
    It absolutely matters. If nothing else, cards from Adventures are disenchantable. Even if you like ZERO of the cards from the Adventure you can dust them for half their crafting value.

    So you get 3200 dust just form the 4 Legendary Hero cards alone. any way you slice it, it's better value than 2800 dust normally grants, or even $20, which usually gives you 15 packs, or a 1500 dust equivalent.

    There is no way you can value the Adventure that it does not come out as more cost effective (by an absolutely MINIMUM of more than double the value) than buying an equivalent cost in packs.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    I don't. I got at least some enjoyment out of the old style of adventures, where the bosses were more like a puzzle you designed decks around, but Dungeon Run-style gameplay lost my interest very quickly. That's why I've been happily passing on the other new adventures since they started charging for them.
    ...But this is exactly the kind of Adventure this is.

    I really don't think any of your complaints are based on anything rational here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Cardew
    For example, despite all the classic packs I've bought or be given over the life of the game, I still don't have the Black Knight, Ysera, Antonidas, or Tirion. All cards I want but have never pulled because the chance of me getting the cards I actually want from packs is so absurdly low. I do have Gruul, Lorewalker Cho, The Beast, King Mukka, and Deathwing because those are the useless legendaries I've gotten in packs but refuse to dust. If if I dusted all of the stupid legionaries, I'd get ... 1... card I actually wanted.
    ...So do that? Consistently do that, even, and craft all the cards you want. I left the F2P train behind ~6 months ago when it became part of my job to report on this game, but that's what I did back when I never paid a single red cent for cards.

    I still end up dusting just about every Golden card I open up.

    There is SOME value in sitting on Legendaries you don't want because you can't get duplicate Legendaries, but unless you plan on opening a bajillion Classic packs any time soon, you're better off dusting all of the above except Deathwing (which is actually used in some Tier 2 decks RIGHT NOW and has intermittent uses over time) and crafting Antonidas, Tirion, or Ysera (depending on whether you play Mage, Paladin, or neither more).

    Edit: Well, apparently Deathwing isn't in any decks ANY MORE (it was in both HL Dragon Paladin and Hunter for a while), but the point stands; it's the best card to hang onto of those 5)
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2020-01-10 at 12:57 AM. Reason: you'r is the worst of both worlds

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post

    ...So do that? Consistently do that, even, and craft all the cards you want. I left the F2P train behind ~6 months ago when it became part of my job to report on this game, but that's what I did back when I never paid a single red cent for cards.

    I still end up dusting just about every Golden card I open up.

    There is SOME value in sitting on Legendaries you don't want because you can't get duplicate Legendaries, but unless you plan on opening a bajillion Classic packs any time soon, you're better off dusting all of the above except Deathwing (which is actually used in some Tier 2 decks RIGHT NOW and has intermittent uses over time) and crafting Antonidas, Tirion, or Ysera (depending on whether you play Mage, Paladin, or neither more).

    Edit: Well, apparently Deathwing isn't in any decks ANY MORE (it was in both HL Dragon Paladin and Hunter for a while), but the point stands; it's the best card to hang onto of those 5)
    One, because getting a legendary you already dusted feels HORRIBLE. Thanks Gruul! Two, because some day I'd like to have a complete f2p classic set? So it would be inefficient to dust them. And the dust return just feels so bad. EDIT: This is also why I hate the nerfs to the classic set. I take a lot of breaks from this game so I really liked the idea of a permanent set of mostly good enough cards that I'd always have. Blizzards constant meddling there is even more annoying than the blatant power creep. I've no real desire to rehash that discussion, just mentioning the rationale.

    Three, other than Antodias the others don't open new deck options, they are more efficient/good tech cards/ alternative win conditions which I can live without. Would my decks be strictly better with those some of the time, yes. Although it's been awhile since Black Knight was needed, pardon me as I relive some Naxx flashbacks. And the only Paladin deck I ever played was Odd paladin which didn't run Tirion.

    Four, I don't find I need to. I don't play enough or even bother to try to keep up with the meta decks. I mostly derp around on the Golden Whizzbang I made, I like the variety and at the bottom end of the ranked pool (for the free dust) you mostly run into other Whizzbangs which actually make for interesting games since everyone's deck is lacking in some way, particularly the general absence of silence or polymorph. Other than that, I'll make 1-3 FOTM netdecks to grind with if I ever feel the need. Right now it is Galakrond Shaman and Warrior which got me rank 18 from to 10 in about 15 ish games loses to other shamans. Well shaman did, I made the warrior after I hit 10 since I only need 4 epics for it. Launch riginal shaman was so broken I'm glad they nerfed it as fast as they did.

    I've got about 5000 dust without going through for extra goldens right now, but no real desire to craft any deck.
    Last edited by Thomas Cardew; 2020-01-10 at 02:24 AM.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    *scratches head*

    So your complaint is that you can't get cards that you have more than enough dust to craft? And you don't have anything else you actually need to spend the dust on, but refuse to because...?

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    *scratches head*

    So your complaint is that you can't get cards that you have more than enough dust to craft? And you don't have anything else you actually need to spend the dust on, but refuse to because...?
    I wasn't complaining?

    At first I was addressing Zevox, who does 'want' specific cards. I just used first person for the examples instead of second. In the second case where I talked about my own legendaries, I should have said useful instead of wanted. It would have been more accurate. But the point I was trying to make is that the adventures are superior because they give you specific cards while the equivalent number of packs is unlikely to give you any specific card. Hence 4 specific cards I 'want' versus the ones I got.

    I have general complaints in that I 'WANT' a full collection. And I'd prefer to be able to buy it directly for x amount of gold instead of buying RNG boxes hoping to get lucky.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Warning for anyone playing Arena: Dragonmaw Poacher is back.

    Apparently they adjusted the appearance rates of cards to lower the win rates of Paladin, Druid, and Hunter. In the process, they reset Dragonmaw Poacher to its default appearance rate.

    So until they patch it, Dragonmaw Poacher is going to be appearing in Arena decks. And even after they patch it those decks will stay around unless Blizzard refunds Arena tickets, which I can't see them doing. So we're probably going to be seeing Poachers in Arena for at least a week, maybe two.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Warning for anyone playing Arena: Dragonmaw Poacher is back.

    Apparently they adjusted the appearance rates of cards to lower the win rates of Paladin, Druid, and Hunter. In the process, they reset Dragonmaw Poacher to its default appearance rate.

    So until they patch it, Dragonmaw Poacher is going to be appearing in Arena decks. And even after they patch it those decks will stay around unless Blizzard refunds Arena tickets, which I can't see them doing. So we're probably going to be seeing Poachers in Arena for at least a week, maybe two.
    Wait they finally micro adjusted?

    Looks like I may need to go do some arena this weekend. Dragonmaw Poacher isn't even that bad honestly. It's a feel bad card, and that got it removed, but in terms of value it wasn't even in top 10 in the expansion from what I remember.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Wait they finally micro adjusted?

    Looks like I may need to go do some arena this weekend. Dragonmaw Poacher isn't even that bad honestly. It's a feel bad card, and that got it removed, but in terms of value it wasn't even in top 10 in the expansion from what I remember.
    That's because it was actually warping the Arena meta. After the first day or so of Arena, people straight up stopped drafting dragons. There are a couple that are still worth it (Tyrant is too good to pass up even with Poacher around, and Alexstrasza is still an "I win" button), but for the most part you played around Poacher to an extreme degree. I picked up two Poachers in my Paladin deck that I drafted this morning, and every game I've played them they have been crushing. A lot of Arena decks just can't come back from a turn 4 8/8 Rush. Or a turn 8 16/16 Rush.

    The change being accidental makes it a lot worse - anyone who drafted a deck from before the change is utterly screwed, because their deck is going to be full of dragons. Anyone still drafting but not seeing a Poacher is also screwed, because the change wasn't announced and so people won't know about it.

    Taking Poacher out made an immediate and noticeable improvement in Arena. You could actually draft dragons again. I've had a LOT more fun since it was taken out.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    It absolutely matters. If nothing else, cards from Adventures are disenchantable. Even if you like ZERO of the cards from the Adventure you can dust them for half their crafting value.
    Aside from the Hunter cards, I never disenchant adventure cards. Because the only way to get them back is by crafting them again, which costs far more dust than you got for disenchanting them, and you never know when even one that looks bad might get a new card printed that makes it more playable, because Blizzard designs things to do that intentionally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    There is no way you can value the Adventure that it does not come out as more cost effective (by an absolutely MINIMUM of more than double the value) than buying an equivalent cost in packs.
    Which is utterly irrelevant. The point is the impact that it has on the game's overall economy for a player who is mostly (not entirely, mind you, I do spend a small amount every second expansion) relying on gold for his cards. A month worth of gold is a full quarter of the time we have with any given expansion - one-quarter of the packs that I'd otherwise buy from an expansion that I won't get if I buy the mid-expansion adventure. That's a lot of cards lost, for the sake of a bunch of cards that, previously, wouldn't have existed at all. Dust value is completely meaningless in the face of that - this will make it harder for me to collect all of the cards I want over time and make it more costly to keep up with the meta, and that is just a hard fact. That's how it works when you add more expenses to the game's economy but leave the amount of gold the same: there's less gold for the things you were spending it on previously. That's just basic math.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    ...But this is exactly the kind of Adventure this is.
    *double-checks this* ...okay, wow, I must admit that genuinely shocks me. When I looked over that announcement earlier, I skipped straight to the cost and the information about the new cards, because I've known I would have this problem with it ever since they indicated it would have new cards back when Descent of Dragons launched, and wanted to see if there was any surprises there. I fully assumed it would just be more Dungeon Run, since that's been the only kind of single-player they've done for so long (aside from Boom Labratories' puzzles, which I personally liked a lot more than Dungeon Run, but seems to have been a one-off), and I was not expecting a change in that regard. Admittedly, it is nice to see that this will be more like the old adventures and not just another Dungeon Run variant. Still, that doesn't excite me or anything, and certainly doesn't make up for the core problem of introducing a new set of cards in between expansions and charging for it like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    I really don't think any of your complaints are based on anything rational here.
    There is little more rational than mathematics, which is the basis of my complaint. Again, more things to spend gold on, but no more gold to spend on them, equals less gold to spend on what we were already getting before anyway. Which means it's harder to collect everything you might want. And frankly, they've been making the game harder to play casually for a long time now, between switching from the expansion-adventure-expansion cycle to all expansions and the nerfs to the Classic set causing decks to rely ever more on expansion cards over time. This is just the straw that's finally breaking the camel's back there for me.
    Last edited by Zevox; 2020-01-10 at 06:32 PM.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    The issue I think is you're really focused on the top level mathematics but are completely dismissing second order or deeper thinking on the subject.

    Yes, from a top level view, you are spending more gold per expansion. But, as mentioned, Dust is exactly equivalent in terms of value to Gold.

    If you get more Dust value, you by that same token get more Gold value. Sure it may not "feel good" to disenchant cards...but that's not really relevant. We're talking about mathematical value. If you Dust a card you want from an Expansion then regret it later, you're in the same boat, especially if it's an Epic card. Sure, you have "other options" than crafting the card to get it, but tell me truthfully: are you statistically likely to get the EXACT Epic card you want within 4 packs (400 Gold, or 400 Dust equivalent, the same as crafting it)? The answer is a resounding no. The average statistic for getting AN Epic is 1 per 5 packs; and there's no guarantee it's the one you even want. Taking Descent of Dragons into account, that is a 1 in 5 chance of getting 1 of 27 Epic cards. I'm no master of statistics, but that seems like way, way lower than a 1 in 4 chance of getting the exact Epic you want, making the point about crafting being the "only way" to get a card back pretty much moot.

    Go even deeper and Adventure cards, at least in my experience, tended to be stronger on average than Expansion cards. Almost every single card form One Night in Karazhan saw play in a competitively viable deck at one point or another, and many were DECK DEFINING (like Barnes and Silverware Golem).

    So they are worth even more than the sum of their Dust, which is in turn guaranteed to be more than the sum of the Gold cost required to get them. Presumably. If all the cards end up sucking, I'll retract this.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    The issue I think is you're really focused on the top level mathematics but are completely dismissing second order or deeper thinking on the subject.

    Yes, from a top level view, you are spending more gold per expansion. But, as mentioned, Dust is exactly equivalent in terms of value to Gold.
    No, actually, I'm not spending more gold per expansion. Because I already spend all of my gold, all the time, except when I'm saving up for the next expansion. I'd just be getting less of the expansion outright, because now some of that gold would have to go towards the adventure instead. That is the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    If you get more Dust value, you by that same token get more Gold value. Sure it may not "feel good" to disenchant cards...but that's not really relevant.
    I didn't say a thing about it feeling good - I said I just don't do it, because I can never be sure that I won't regret it later, and unlike cards from regular expansions I have no chance to get them back any way besides re-crafting them. That will not change. These new cards are not dust to me and never will be (aside from the Hunter ones).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Go even deeper and Adventure cards, at least in my experience, tended to be stronger on average than Expansion cards. Almost every single card form One Night in Karazhan saw play in a competitively viable deck at one point or another, and many were DECK DEFINING (like Barnes and Silverware Golem).
    That's nice. Doesn't change the negative effect that I believe releasing these in this way has on the game's overall economy. Doesn't make me want them any more. Hell, in the sense that I don't want the game's meta constantly "shaken up" like others do, the simple fact that they are new cards getting released outside of the normal expansion periods is, in and of itself, undesirable to me. Much less of a problem than the economy thing, but still.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    *shrugs*

    Then like I said, it's clear your complaints aren't based on mathematics, but feelings.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    *shrugs*

    Then like I said, it's clear your complaints aren't based on mathematics, but feelings.
    Sure, if you ignore everything I've said.
    Last edited by Zevox; 2020-01-10 at 07:45 PM.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zevox View Post
    Sure, if you ignore everything I've said.
    It's not ignoring what you said, it's taking it into account; you are artificially excluding values from the calculation based on your own biases.

    To be clear, this is fine. There is no reason you should keep paying for (or even playing) a game you no longer enjoy, and a lot of things to do with money do not inspire RATIONAL feelings, which is fine. Just because it is mathematically a good idea to buy the Adventure if you're already inclined to keep playing does not mean it's a good idea to do so if you're not already invested in the product enough TO do so.
    Last edited by Rynjin; 2020-01-10 at 07:50 PM. Reason: Edited to edit in an edited edit from the quote's editing

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    It's not ignoring what you said, it's taking it into account; you are artificially excluding values from the calculation based on your own biases.
    No, I'm not. I'm looking at the impact that this addition to the game will have on my ability to continue playing the game in the casual manner that I do objectively, and seeing an additional burden that will cause me to have less of the game's cards. That I am unwilling to put up with that burden is a personal decision based on my own biases; that it exists is not.
    Last edited by Zevox; 2020-01-10 at 07:57 PM.
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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    So...

    Uh...

    They revealed Reno's Hero Power.

    What Does This Do? - Passive Hero Power. At the start of your turn, cast a random spell.
    Last edited by Stevesciguy; 2020-01-10 at 08:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    YAY 400 dust!

    Seriously, that's "destroy all minions and lose your hero power for the rest of the game"

    Edit: Oh wait it's passive, that's even worse, given that it will feel like it's actively screwing you over even though it's just RNG.
    Last edited by Thomas Cardew; 2020-01-10 at 10:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Cardew View Post
    YAY 400 dust!

    Seriously, that's "destroy all minions and lose your hero power for the rest of the game"

    Edit: Oh wait it's passive, that's even worse, given that it will feel like it's actively screwing you over even though it's just RNG.
    It's not that bad. People totally play yoggs puzzle box and deck of wonders.

    Still... Yeah probably not worth.
    If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?


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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    I don't think I've ever seen a deck of wonders that wasn't generated. And Yogg's puzzle box is generally a Hail Mary attempt at getting out of a losing situation, but it's a one time effect. It either works and you survive, or it doesn't and you lose but doesn't repeatedly screw you over for the rest of the game. This can/will.

    But yeah, someone will inevitably make a meme deck out of it.

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    Are you rrrrready for a Clllloooooownnn Fiestaaaaa!?!?!

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    Default Re: Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

    I kind of wish Reno's hero power interacted with the minions he poofed somehow. Like a 2 mana hero power, make a minion "reappear" on your side. A random minion that got poofed comes back when used (with any buffs it had) and then can't be summoned again. Once there are no minions left you get a poof of dust or something similar to shadow of nothing when ever you use your hero power (Only maybe 1/1 or a 0/1 with taunt so your hero power isn't useless once all the minions you got in your hero power come back). T
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