Hearthstone 24: Don't tell the others, but I'm rooting for you!

[Zevox]

Thanks for the friend-fight quest match earlier otakuryoga. Boy does that really reinforce my decision to quit playing normal Hearthstone, though - that questline thing seems ridiculous. Super easy to meet conditions, very powerful rewards, and it just keeps getting stronger and stronger over the course of the match. Definitely better off with Battlegrounds and (single-player) Mercenaries.

[Rynjin]

I think all of the Questlines besides the Warrior one are out of the meta right now, actually.

Once the post-expansion ****storm calmed down, I started to enjoy the meta again. Most of the combo decks have fallen out of favor, and there's quite a few fun decks at the moment. I've been playing Ping Mage, and that's been a ton of fun.

The game does, however, suffer a big issue of a lot of damage being unreactable. It's more of a big shift in the game than anything else. Where before, a few characters had a lot of damage from hand and it was problematic...almost every class does now. Board control is a minimal concern save against decks like the new Token Druid.

[Zevox]

I think all of the Questlines besides the Warrior one are out of the meta right now, actually.

Once the post-expansion ****storm calmed down, I started to enjoy the meta again. Most of the combo decks have fallen out of favor, and there's quite a few fun decks at the moment. I've been playing Ping Mage, and that's been a ton of fun.

The game does, however, suffer a big issue of a lot of damage being unreactable. It's more of a big shift in the game than anything else. Where before, a few characters had a lot of damage from hand and it was problematic...almost every class does now. Board control is a minimal concern save against decks like the new Token Druid.

Wait, how does "a lot of unreactable damage from hand" not equal "combo decks?" That's pretty much what a combo deck is. Well, that or some other weird OTK, like the old Paladin Death Knight's thing, but usually it's damage from hand that's so huge you'll just die if they get to do it.

[Rynjin]

Wait, how does "a lot of unreactable damage from hand" not equal "combo decks?" That's pretty much what a combo deck is. Well, that or some other weird OTK, like the old Paladin Death Knight's thing, but usually it's damage from hand that's so huge you'll just die if they get to do it.

There's a lot of burn over time, from spells, weapons, Charge minions, etc. Nothing in the realm of an OTK or combo.

[Seerow]

I mean the best deck in the meta right now is thief rogue, who is great in large part because of a disgusting early game board presence.

I've also been seeing a fair bit of ramp guff druid who is off board in the early game before crushing with big threats in the late game.

I hit legend last month with elemental shaman with a freeze package, that was all about board aggression

Buff/libram paladin is still out there.

It's actually one of the most diverse metas I can remember. I think I remember hearing there's something like 15 viable tier 2 or better decks out there. Lots of options for almost any style you enjoy.

[Rynjin]

I don't have much issues with Rogue as Ping Mage unless I get really, really bad draws. I see a lot of Rogue, a lot of Pirate Warrior, some Libram Paladin, some Hunter, and a smattering of other stuff.

I don't know if the meta becomes more diverse at Legend, I only play a couple matches a day at most and cap out at Diamond 5 not long after my bonus stars run out.

[zlefin]

Are there stability issues? I was having a problem wherein Hearthstone would hard crash my system (so hard it had to be rebooted); so I stopped playing for like a month. Though the meta was rather unfun anyways so no great loss.

I continue to dislike quests and hero cards due to it making the long game very wealth-dependent (ie owning the requisite legendaries).

[Zevox]

There's a lot of burn over time, from spells, weapons, Charge minions, etc. Nothing in the realm of an OTK or combo.

If we're just talking a spell or charge minion here and there though, that's nothing new, and it's not unreactable. You can heal in between their turns, or put up taunt to stop charge minions (granted that's preemptive rather than reactive, but still). Still not something I'd like, but it's not "the board doesn't matter" levels of bad.

Are there stability issues? I was having a problem wherein Hearthstone would hard crash my system (so hard it had to be rebooted); so I stopped playing for like a month.

I've had plenty of stability issues with it, though never anything that caused me to need to reboot my system to deal with it. Problems connecting to Battlegrounds games when it first matches you, or loading a stage in Mercenaries though, requiring me to close the game and reopen it, yeah. Not constantly, but more than frequently enough to be very irritating.

[Joran]

Big new Battlegrounds mechanic: Battle Buddies.

Each hero will also get an accompanying special minion. The first minion will be available depending on some kind of XP meter based on combat (need more info on this) and then the next two later. It can also triple.

Definitely interesting and another lever and design area that they can balance heroes with.

For me, I'm still playing, doing my dailies over two accounts. I have a standard account, where I spend all the gold buying current standard packs. The other account is my "alt" account, which used to be my wife's account, which is wild, mercs, and battlegrounds. Since Wild is a cheaper format, I find it easier to spend the gold there than my standard account.

[Zevox]

Big new Battlegrounds mechanic: Battle Buddies.

Each hero will also get an accompanying special minion. The first minion will be available depending on some kind of XP meter based on combat (need more info on this) and then the next two later. It can also triple.

Definitely interesting and another lever and design area that they can balance heroes with.

After getting a look at that mechanic and what all of the buddies are, I think it's an interesting idea, but oh god is going to be horrifically imbalanced at the moment. Because they based the buddies' abilities on the existing hero power abilities, a lot of the already-strong heroes got strong buddies, and the already-weak heroes got weak ones.

For example, one of the worst heroes in the game right now is Kurtrus (the guy who buffs things that he buys if he buys 3 in one turn). His buddy has the effect "After you you buy a minion, minions in Bob's tavern have +1/+1 this turn." So, very minor effect, doesn't do anything for you until you've bought at least two things that turn, and it's not even permanent. It's pretty sad.

Another bad example is A.F. Kay, whose buddy gives her tavern 3 minions +1/+1 at the end of her turn. Yeah, that might help her stabilize a bit in the mid-game, but it's such a minor effect that it doesn't accomplish much in the long run, and she'll still take a beating on those first turns where she can't act and start behind everyone else in tavern tiering.

Meanwhile, on the good end of things, a couple of the strongest heroes right now include Rafaam and Cookie. Rafaam got a buddy whose effect is that he also steals a copy of the second minion that he kills from the opponent's board, which is bonkers strong - more free gold at a minimum, and potentially very useful minions for him at best. And Cookie's buddy let's him use his hero power twice per turn instead of once. Meaning now instead of getting one free discovered minion from a pool of minion types he chooses every three turns, he can get one two out of three turns - or every turn once he goldens it. (Oh, and Cookie's buddy is a Murloc, so if he goes Murlocs or Menagerie, he can even scale it and keep it forever without its stats falling behind. Or if he can just get poison on it from Sefin he can still keep it forever because at that point its stats don't mean much.) Yeah, that's kind of going to matter a lot more than buddies that give you minor buffs like Kurtrus and A.F. Kay.

Oh, and did I mention that they're removing armor when this launches? Because they are. Apparently because they want to see how this affects hero balance before turning the armor system back on, but still. It means heroes like A.F. Kay and Kurtrus are losing even that little boon to help them while getting crappy buddies, while ones like Rafaam and Cookie are making out like bandits, getting amazing buddies while not having had any armor to lose.

[Rynjin]

What are they doing with Curator and N'zoth? Do they get two starter minions?

[The Glyphstone]

They dont get two starter minions, but their Battle Buddy has synergy with the starter minion. Battle Buddies don't appear on turn 1.

[Zevox]

What are they doing with Curator and N'zoth? Do they get two starter minions?

N'Zoth gets a buddy with Battlecry: Make a friendly deathrattle minion golden. So, potentially great with the right targets (mainly I'm thinking Gul'drin), and he can use it on his starter minion, but also still leaves him dependant on getting some great deathrattles to actually do anything with it, which won't always happen. Meaning his major flaw remains, it's just that his best-case scenario got stronger.

The Curator got an interesting one, actually. "Mishmash" - a 3/3 buddy with all minion types, and the effect "whenever your Amalgam gains stats, this gains them too." That one could actually be good, though as before you really want the game to include Murlocs and Mechs, so he can give his Amalgam and buddies divine shield and poison. And it does put him in a slightly awkward spot as far as whether or not to triple his buddy goes. Normally with an all minion types minion you don't want to triple it, since that means fewer minions you can get divine shield plus poison on, but because the second and third buddies come at the same time, you would have to sell your first buddy to not triple it, and by the time you get the second and third copies it will certainly have gained some buffs you'd rather not lose.

To be fair, like with the Curator, it is the case that some weaker heroes did get good buddies. Another good example is Elise, who has always been pretty weak except for that period where they let her maps cost 2 gold. She got a buddy who, at the start of her turns, gives her a map and reduces the cost of all maps in her hand by 1. Which is actually pretty crazy, and the only thing holding it back from being overpowered is that it's a typeless minion, so it'll be difficult to impossible to scale, so if you try to hold onto it forever it'll drag your board strength down. So an impressive buddy that might push a weak hero enough to make her actually good - that's the type of thing you'd hope to see for all the weak heroes. But then you look at some of the other weak heroes, and see things like Tamsin's buddy (a 0/12 typeless minion that gains attack from any friendly minion that dies... not even permanently...), and it's clear that all too many of them just didn't.

[Rodin]

I get the impression that Battlegrounds has two teams working on it, and those two teams don't talk to each other or share information.

On the one side we have the design team, who make things like the Avenge cards, new Heroes, and this new Buddy system. They have carte blanche and can put whatever they want into the game regardless of balance - as long as its cool, it's in.

Then there's the balance team, who aren't allowed to touch the game until a month after the design team has had their way. They have to spend the next several months sorting out the mess the design team made.

The effect is that Battlegrounds gets steadily better as the balance is refined, then becomes boring as the meta settles, then becomes unplayable as the new stuff is put in, then gets better again, rinse and repeat.

Seriously, it's plainly obvious to even a scrub like me that some of these buddies are Not Okay. They're going to break the game 10 ways from Sunday and require multiple nerfs/re-designs to bring them in line. In other cases it's clear that the Buddies don't serve their purpose - they're flavorful as heck, but they're weak cards attached to already weak heroes.

Buddies look like a great solution to one of Battlegrounds ongoing problems - the lack of granularity in adjusting hero powers. 1 mana Sneed is too good, 2 mana Sneed is terrible. Give him a buddy and you can adjust his power level by adjusting that instead.

Whoever designed them just doesn't understand Battlegrounds balance.

[Zevox]

So the patch is out and Battlegrounds' new buddy system is live. Played some with it this afternoon - and it's still kind of hard to judge what's good. I had instances where the buddy I was playing with felt strong, but I just didn't find a workable build, or instances where I crashed and burned because of high-roll opponents. Normal Battlegrounds stuff, sure, but it makes judging power levels a little hard initially here.

A couple of observations, though. The buddies kick in slower than I thought. The first one shows up around turn 5-6 (7-8 gold) on average, and the final two are much later - often after half the lobby is dead already, in my experience. It can actually be difficult to hold onto your initial buddy that long at all if it's not one you can scale. On that note, probably the most impressive one individually that I played with was Xyrella's, which gains +2/+2 whenever you play a minion whose attack and health are equal. Between her hero power and plenty of cards naturally having the same attack and health, it's easy to scale, and it's a tavern 2 buddy, so she gets it as early as anyone possibly can. I sadly only came in fourth that game, but that's because of not finding a viable build in a reasonable amount of time, the buddy itself was very potent.

Also, I think Jaraxxus' golden buddy might be bugged. Its deathrattle is supposed to give him two random demons when it dies, but in the five or so turns I had it, it always gave me two copies of the same random demon. Which can be nice if you find the third for a triple, but I think I'd usually rather have the extra chance to get a better demon rather than getting stuck with two of the tavern 1s.

Finally, and honestly the most important part: why the *expletive* did they increase the cost of going to tavern 5?! I was baffled when I saw that in the patch notes, and gods do I hate it in practice. The game doesn't get good until you get into the higher tavern tiers where real builds take off, why make that even harder to do? Ugh. I really hope they revert that change soon, otherwise all they're going to do is encourage people to abuse the tavern 4 avenge minions with token deathrattles that much more than they already do. (Also, it makes zero sense that tavern 5 is now more expensive to go to than tavern 6.)

[Rynjin]

TBH I've found games progressing to Tavern 5/6 a little too fast for my taste, so it sounds like a good change to me. Battlegrounds has become faster and faster over time, even with mechanics they've implemented to try and slow it down (eg. Armor, the damage cap), and I liked it better when it took a little longer for a good T5/6 highroll to make your next opponent insurmountably huge.

[Zevox]

TBH I've found games progressing to Tavern 5/6 a little too fast for my taste, so it sounds like a good change to me. Battlegrounds has become faster and faster over time, even with mechanics they've implemented to try and slow it down (eg. Armor, the damage cap), and I liked it better when it took a little longer for a good T5/6 highroll to make your next opponent insurmountably huge.

I think you're confused. People being able to go to tavern 5 and 6 consistently is a sign that the game is slower - when the game's faster, they're not able to do so except when high-rolling, for fear of taking too much damage. Because when you tavern up, that's a lot of gold you aren't spending on getting stronger that turn, so if other people aren't doing so, odds are you'll be at a disadvantage in combat that turn, and potentially for longer if you don't quickly find beneficial cards from that higher tavern tier you went to. Making it harder to go to higher tavern tiers will speed the game up, by making more people resort to builds that are powerful in the mid-game and only need tavern 4 or lower minions, like Juggler Demons, Birdie Buddie Beasts, any token deathrattles + Mechano Tank, etc, which will dish out a lot of damage sooner than if they instead were aiming for high tavern tiers.

Honestly, the Battlegrounds has been in an overall pretty good place balance-wise lately, and I've had plenty of games that were going much longer than they used to. I fear that this change will seriously set that back.

[Rynjin]

IME it's more like people get a decent midrange build and steamroll, then decide they can eat some damage to tier up if they want, since by that point you're still probably maxing 15.

Resorting to those midgame builds longterm though seems questionable. Juggler Demons have seemed very, very weak the last few times I've fiddled with it, and seem to fall off pretty fast when I play against it too. There's only so much shooting 6-12 damage can do when your enemy is like...Deathrattle Beasts who are all 100/100+ and pass off like 30/30 of those stats to another dude when they die, their Dragon or Elemental build took off and is full of 200+ HP creatures, etc.

[Seerow]

IME it's more like people get a decent midrange build and steamroll, then decide they can eat some damage to tier up if they want, since by that point you're still probably maxing 15.

Resorting to those midgame builds longterm though seems questionable. Juggler Demons have seemed very, very weak the last few times I've fiddled with it, and seem to fall off pretty fast when I play against it too. There's only so much shooting 6-12 damage can do when your enemy is like...Deathrattle Beasts who are all 100/100+ and pass off like 30/30 of those stats to another dude when they die, their Dragon or Elemental build took off and is full of 200+ HP creatures, etc.

The thing about those midrange builds is they are 100% intended to die when things get to that point.

What you're betting on is by the time builds get to that point, 4 other people in the lobby have already died. If you're playing Juggler Demons, or Divine Shield Refresh Mechs, you're either looking for a quick transition to something else, or shooting for 4th place to get the 'win'. Because while Juggler Demons or Avenge Cannon are very weak against super high health boards, they absolutely crush unoptimized boards in the midgame, and can potentially knock out players just a turn or two before they go galactic.

[Zevox]

IME it's more like people get a decent midrange build and steamroll, then decide they can eat some damage to tier up if they want, since by that point you're still probably maxing 15.

Resorting to those midgame builds longterm though seems questionable. Juggler Demons have seemed very, very weak the last few times I've fiddled with it, and seem to fall off pretty fast when I play against it too. There's only so much shooting 6-12 damage can do when your enemy is like...Deathrattle Beasts who are all 100/100+ and pass off like 30/30 of those stats to another dude when they die, their Dragon or Elemental build took off and is full of 200+ HP creatures, etc.

The 15 damage cap is sadly not so meaningful unless you've already been doing well early in the game, honestly. And even then it's dependant on there actually being eight people in the lobby. I don't know about you, but I find that a quarter or so of the time, it seems like someone drops out of the game immediately, presumably due to connection troubles (I've had that issue) or due to not getting a hero they wanted to play, and when that happens the damage cap is nonexistent.

And right, those midgame builds don't generally get first place for you, barring when absolutely nobody gets a late-game build going. But most people aren't playing just to get first place, they're playing to do as well as they can given the scenario they get. And if they get stuck on lower tavern tiers and don't feel they can reasonably go to the higher tiers, that's the kind of thing they're going to grab, because that's generally the strongest you can get without tavern 5 or 6 minions. And that'll lead to more people taking more damage early, and thus more games ending earlier. Hence, the game getting faster.

[Rynjin]

Maybe a difference in philosophy between me and the majority of players? I don't see any reason in not playing to win. It's not like BG rankings actually matter.

[Zevox]

Maybe a difference in philosophy between me and the majority of players? I don't see any reason in not playing to win. It's not like BG rankings actually matter.

True, but it also feels better to finish a game in 3rd than 7th. So, faced with a choice that has a small chance of getting you first but a large chance of killing you early, and another that means you're probably not getting a top rank but will probably fare reasonably well until other players' late-game build kick in, I think it's only natural that most people would choose the latter.

[Joran]

Played a few games; seems like a lot of people are playing for tempo harder (since tempo makes the buddies come online faster) so less time to greed and get value.

Tavish (hero power is deal 1 damage, upgrades each turn / buddy gives stats equal to the damage to adjacent minions): Uh, Tarecgosa makes the stats permanent, so no brainer if you get her. First game I tried hard rolling for it, but didn't get it and finished top 6. Probably could have finished top 4 if I actually played normally. Next game I had 300/300 and 150/150 Tarecs with divine shield + 2 Nadinas in a non-beast / non-murloc lobby, so pretty easy win. Note: Do not aim at divine shield minions, the crab will not give any stats if you do that.

Rafaam: Buddy comes online too late; don't think it's too good. I don't think the buddy is good, but the hero power still gets value + triples.

[Zevox]

Just had a match which illustrates my fears for what the tavern 5 cost increase will do. I wound up winning - playing as Rafaam I was able to tavern up fairly well, had a bit of luck that got me a couple of triples as I got to tavern 5, and ended up with a Quillboar Menagerie (two Charlga, a Great Boar, and a Thorncurse fueling scaling for themselves and a few other non-Quilboar minions). My final opponent was undefeated, at a full 40 hp, when it came down to just me and him. And he did not kill a single minion on my board over the two games we played.

Why? Because he was a Greybough with a Juggler Demons build. Not even a particularly impressive one - the only golden minion was his buddy. He had a single juggler, a single Mechano-tank, and a few taunted demons that spawned more demons (two Icky Imps, a Voidlord, and an Imprisoner), none of which were buffed past single-digit stats. And that guy was undefeated first place in that lobby. Everyone else in the lobby got run over by either me, the one player who got lucky enough to be able to tavern up and found a decent late-game build, or him.

Yeah, even as a game I won with a build that I very much enjoy, that's a bit less than satisfying to me.

Rafaam: Buddy comes online too late; don't think it's too good. I don't think the buddy is good, but the hero power still gets value + triples.

I think it's good, but not good enough to hang onto until the extra two come online. Each time I've played Rafaam (including the above-mentioned game), I found myself in a position where I felt I had to sell the buddy for the board space, and didn't regret doing so.

Fun fact, I got those golden minions on 5 I mentioned due to the buddy + hero power, though. I had a windfury Quillboar in the mid-game, and it stole me two Acolytes of C'Thun in one game, and two Imprisoners in another, when I just so happened to have one of each on my board at the time.

[Rynjin]

It feels a little weird that Buddies seem to be largely a "win more" mechanic, since you get your Buddy faster if you're winning.

[Zevox]

It feels a little weird that Buddies seem to be largely a "win more" mechanic, since you get your Buddy faster if you're winning.

Eh, you do get a buddy meter boost from each win, but it's not that big. The biggest part seems to be doing damage during the fight. Higher attack numbers = more buddy meter, pretty directly, from what I'm seeing. Which actually makes me think that the "stay on 1 for a long time" strategy is counter-productive to it, since so many tier 1 minions only have 1 or 2 attack. I've started to feel like I get my buddy faster by following the traditional tavern tiering pattern rather than trying to build a board up quickly, and I think that's because tier 2 minions do more damage than tier 1 minions, especially since they're also more likely to survive a hit and deal their damage a second time - especially if everyone else is staying on 1 and has more low-stat minions for you to hit with them.

On another topic, any thoughts on the new heroes? I haven't tried the one that copies attack/has a buddy with an avenge effect that boosts his board's attack (though my personal impression is that he's likely the worst of the four), but I've played the other 3.

Tavish seems decent and fun. It's kind of a trick each turn to try and guess which aiming option will be best, especially once you have to also take his buddy into account, since it won't give out buffs if you pop a divine shield instead of doing real damage to something. I know he can get crazy with Tarecgosa, but Dragons weren't in the one game I've gotten to play as him.

The health-oriented one is neat, and probably not bad, but probably not that good either. His hero power is handy, especially with poison minions, and his buddy is useful in the mid-game - though I suspect it's one you don't want to keep all the way to the end, even after you golden it. Didn't do so hot on the game I played as him, but I chalk that up to some poor luck in that case.

Bru'kan, meanwhile, seems busted. He's been quite popular, and after playing him, I can see why. His hero power is a huge advantage in the early game, making him very hard to beat in the first few turns when that lightning option will kill a lot of tier 1 minions, or the deathrattle option adds a lot of power to your board relative to how strong things are at the time. And his buddy is deceptively strong once loaded up with his powers and has strong synergies with Maccaw and Baron. I actually took 1st place with my first Bru'kan game, and I think I attribute it in large part to how strong he is in the early and mid game, plus me finding a Maccaw, allowing me to tavern up relatively safely. I actually wound up selling his buddy, but mostly because I got a build it was bad for (Gul'drin Beasts); I could absolutely see his golden buddy being one you would keep for the whole game (and have seen it be that by some of the Bru'kans that have killed me in previous games). I think he may well be in line for nerfs.

[Seerow]

I've gotten to play both Bru'kan and Tavish once, got second with each of them.

Tavish I actually highrolled the Dragon Build with him (had a golden primordial drake and 2 golden Tarecgosas along with golden Crabby), so had some really giant dragons, but never hit the tier 6 divine shield all dragons unit, and died to poisonous murlocs. I imagine Tavish in a lobby with Dragons and no Beasts or Murlocs is just unbeatable. Crabby's scaling is just outrageous if you have any way to keep it.

Bru'kan I started out REALLY strong. Like went undefeated first 12 rounds. Early game the HP alone is great tempo. Midgame mccaw+buddy carried.

I was aiming for a late game beast transition, to toss away the buddy and move into a beast deathrattle build, since they use a lot of the same key pieces (mccaw, baron), but never really hit enough of those pieces to quite make it work. Also the other player left at the end had a super highroll Elemental Build, so even had I transitioned I probably wouldn't have had enough stats. Would have needed more reborn poisons and I only ever found one spider. It really was a case of a great hero power carrying as hard as it could before everything collapsed because I didn't find any of the key things I was looking for.

[Rynjin]

I got to play Tavish and...Vann'Dar I think? The other dwarf, once each.

Tavish seems really solid. Not too hot on his buddy, but it's a good one to keep around for a couple of turns while you search for something better. I like that you can try to big brain your enemy and snipe their Juggler, Rivendare, etc. and they sort of have to play around you and maybe put some dudes out of position. Very cool.

Helf Dorf...seems like he sucks ass, really. That was my impression anyway.

[zlefin]

I find the battle buddies have an inherent synergy with tavern upgrades that counteracts the higher cost of going up to tier 5. In the past I've always liked to upgrade my tavern when I acquire a gold minion, so as to get to discover as high a tier minion as possible. Now, when you get your golden battle buddy, you can afford to even spend all your gold on an upgrade and still be able to get the discover. So I sometimes find myself going up to tier 5 on that turn, and then getting to discover a tier 6. Depending on what you get, a tier 5 or tier 6 discover can really setup your late game transition very well.

[Zevox]

I find the battle buddies have an inherent synergy with tavern upgrades that counteracts the higher cost of going up to tier 5. In the past I've always liked to upgrade my tavern when I acquire a gold minion, so as to get to discover as high a tier minion as possible. Now, when you get your golden battle buddy, you can afford to even spend all your gold on an upgrade and still be able to get the discover. So I sometimes find myself going up to tier 5 on that turn, and then getting to discover a tier 6. Depending on what you get, a tier 5 or tier 6 discover can really setup your late game transition very well.

Waiting for your golden buddy to go to tavern 5 is way too long of a wait. Those extra copies of your buddy just take too long to get - half of the lobby is usually dead by the time most people are getting them. Maybe someone with a tavern 2 buddy and a strong start could pull it off, but otherwise, that's no different from just staying on tavern 4 for a while and accepting that you're probably ending up in 3rd or 4th in my mind.

Also, not everyone wants to golden their buddy. Battlecry buddies like Zephrys' or Gallywix's are better sold and just using the second and third copies for more uses of the powerful battlecry, since they're just a liability if left on your board due to their poor stats.