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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Quote Originally Posted by TalonOfAnathrax View Post
    I allowed earning the Saint Template, not taking it instead of a level. If you want Divine Minion, you'll have to find a way to get it (and also find a friendly God).

    EDIT : by the way, I don't know why everyone is taking Wild Shape Ranger. Clearly the best class with Wild Shape is Wild Monk. It's the same Tier, but you can also take Invisible Fist and that substitution level that grants Darkvision, and you get Wis to AC while in all other forms. This seems better than Ranger for the purposes of that build.
    I have zero problem qualifying for the Saint template, as the qualifications listed in the BoED are less stringent than the ones I am already living. All I'd need to add are three exalted feats, and be 6th level.

    I also have no problem at all wearing six flaws to get extra feats, just taking credit for laws and strictures I am already living.

    So, Saint template is qualified for in that first year.

    With that in mind, I'd actually be better off taking 6 levels of Aristocrat as my first year, with Obtain Familiar and Leadership as feats (and exalted familiar as one of the three exalted feats I'd need) - take as my cohort a Factotum, so between myself, my exalted familiar, and my factotum cohort we have three minds with maxed out Knowledge skills (all three of us will max out Knowledge Arcana), with the factotum's Cunning Knowledge boost, to do the work on coming up with the research to handle some of the rituals in Savage Species.

    I will work first with plants. Then, at an animal shelter, using pets that are unwanted and therefore scheduled to be terminated in order to get live examples to test out the race changing rituals of SS. I will do this so I can progress our little group's knowledge far enough so that we can then work up to working at VA hospitals or hospices, with next-of-kin's permission, transforming at first coma patients about to have their plugs pulled, then crippled vets, into trolls so they can regenerate all of the parts they need to live full, healthy lives, then back again.

    At each stage I will be producing useful byproducts. As I transform plants I will be making several examples of those things that my group's Knowledge Arcana tell me are useful for alchemy and other item creation uses.

    With the pets, I will start with simple changes, recreating extinct species like passenger pigeons and dodos, then going on to create more species suitable for alchemy and magical item creation - and anything I transform we will have saved the life of, as not enough people want stray cats, but nobody would turn down their own unicorn.

    Lastly, with the vets, transform anyone who wants to into paladins of appropriate alignment. I suspect freedom-loving American vets to create a lot of Paladins of Freedom.

    Now I can properly use rituals to trade away my Saint template to get Divine Minion (and, yes, I already have a friendly God - He died for me, you know), and ironically, I qualify for Saint all over again. I could trade that away several times to get some interesting template cheese going on. Half-Fey and some others have some interesting SLAs.

    Not to mention, Warlocks are created via contracts to Fey, and that's the type the Half-Fey template gives you. So I could ritually create fey-based warlocks at this point, in addition to the Paladins of Freedom.

    I can, at that time, ritual away all six levels of aristocrat to get Master of Many Forms levels and regain my Animorph card.

    Next year, I'll be plotting to get another six levels of Aristocrat.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    If the Animorphs team are onboard with abusing Leadership to bypass the "Tier X = X levels" limitations, might as well go for Aristocrat 6 too, and I see no reason why my cohort can't be something like Marshal 1 / Binder 1 / Incarnate 1 / Warlock 1

    Even without much optimization, the Diplomacy check is easily 30 (take 10 from Naberius + 7 ranks + 3 Skill Focus + 4 invested Silvertongue Mask + 6 Beguiling Influence). This makes it easier for the Animorphs team to get to the right people, places, and resources to help us with the research.

    Furthermore, a 60ft radius Motivate Intelligence should allow our friends to use Aid Another for the required Knowledge checks, since even mundane people that are untrained would still be able to make untrained Knowledge checks at DC10. I'd say a strategically placed Marshal with a range of 60ft radius could include a couple of hundred people in its effect, for a decent bonus. Masterwork tools for an additional +2 would be helpful in beating that DC10 check. Even if 50% fail the check, getting 100+ in our aided Knowledge checks isn't so bad.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Regarding gp : note that a gp is "a lot of money" for the purposes of this thread. Using goods to calculate the $ value of 1gp seems like a poor idea because of how crazy the prices of goods and services are in 3.5, so we'll be working off the "50 gp for a pound of gold", which brings us to "0.02 pounds of gold = 1 gp". Seeing as today's gold price is over 1500$ for 1 Troy ounce ounce of gold, and as there are about 14.5 troy ounces in a pound, 1 gp is worth over 400$.
    This weakens item crafting, and therefore works as intended.
    However, this does make it difficult to qualify for Item Familiar. Poor Truenamers.

    By the way, everyone, am I crazy or is the best healing class the Dragon Shaman? Very fast leveling means quick access to its normally mid-level healing, and it can easily remove a whole bunch of conditions and heal an awful lot of HP damage.
    The only other contenders I can think of are Binders (either using Naberius + Stigmata or Tenebrous + Sacred Healing) but they can only really heal hit points, with a condition removal at high levels using SLAs from Zceryll. Still, they can Raise Dead.
    Truenamer can replicate that a small number of times per day. Their only limitation is the number of times they can successfully activate Gate to summon creatures with healing SLAs. Sadly it seems very difficult to pump Truenaming checks, and the DC increases every time they do this. They do have a few other Healing abilities, but they're not great either. AFAIK their highest(level one is still worse than Panacea. Truenamers are very strong (because even a small number of Gates per day that don't cost XP is amazing, even though most of their other abilities are disappointing) but their effectiveness as Healers really depends on somehow finding a way to pump Truenaming checks without much gear, without the Paragnostic Assembly, and probably without an Item Familiar too.
    Healers slowly get SLAs for everything which work even without being able to cast spells, and have a useful mount. However they can't do much else...

    Incarnates have decent healing, actually. Not sure if they can remove conditions though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    So, I find this thread's concept of "Knowledge" to possess internal consistency, and to be as reasonable as one could expect (because bolting the abstraction back onto reality just isn't going to be seamless). And I actively like the use of Knowledge for qualifying for knowing forms (although I would contend that several other methods should qualify, too). So kudos! I may be a ****, and poke things hard, but I'd like to acknowledge when people do things well (I can't say "right", because there's not a single "right" answer here).
    Nice of you to say so, thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    I, however, may have misinterpreted something, so, to double-check: when our stats get "replaced", I took that to mean our 6 attributes, but does that include skills, training, knowledge, etc, too?
    Stats are Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis and Cha. Those are replaced. However you keep your existing skills, and you can still learn things the normal way if you put in the time and effort despite having new skills "downloaded" into your brain as you level up.
    Basically your D&D stuff is an extra boost, but the "real you" still exists underneath and can keep doing whatever it did before. The only things that really replace parts of the "real you" are HP and stats.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Really, "identifying proper components" sounds like something Knowledge would be ideal for. (And I'd more likely use something like "cobwebs collected from the shadows of a comma patient's room", "near-death experience clippings / body fluids” - things that represent that balance between life and death, rather than the things so focused on death that you would apparently use)
    Exactly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Also, I'm not seeing any distinction between your definitions of "cohort" and "ally". I plan on having lots of allies, if possible, but a cohort ought to be, you know, better.
    It's been years since I read the 3.5 DMG, but AFAIK a cohort isn't a slave. It's a close, loyal and dependable person who respects your leadership. Leadership gives you an instant powerful ally willing to follow your orders, but not a brainwashed slave. A cohort can leave if you make it violate its morals and whatnot (however a cohort will probably die for you if it fits their character, and will certainly fight for you just like any loyal minion would).
    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    I'm guessing this is 3.5 only? Otherwise alchemist is still technically a valid choice, I think.
    Yes, 3.5 Only. This is also a response to Vasilidor - no Spheres of Power, sorry.
    Quote Originally Posted by TotallyNotEvil View Post
    Oh yeah, question: can we change race?
    You can change race if you can find a way to do so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    I just double-checked Complete Arcane, and it says that invocations cannot fulfill "able to cast X-level spell" requirements. So I'm just not seeing how Soulcaster, Anima Mage, or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil are possible with Warlock or Dragonfire Adept.
    Huh, you're right. I was clearly completely misremembering how Warlock multiclassing works, thanks.
    Actually, this sounds like something Sinner's Garden should explain, not me. This seems like a build you can't take, sorry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    Healer 15 / Hierophant 5, can get Mass Heal as a spell-like ability 10 times per day.
    Spontaneous Cleric 10 / Thaumaturgist 5 / Hierophant 5 can get Miracle as a spell-like ability 6 times per day, and can have an Astral Deva with a mostly-finished savage progression as a Planar Cohort.
    How does this work? I was thinking about something similar using Archmage for the same reason, but I can't see how you can qualify. You can't cast spells, after all.
    Or is there some way to count as casting spells without actually having to cast them? Because the premise here is that spellcasting doesn't work.
    Actually, this is also a valid reason for Sinner's build to not work.
    Quote Originally Posted by TotallyNotEvil View Post
    The fact that you automatically end up at 20th helps a ton with what I was thinking: Factotum 19/Exemplar 1.
    What are you using Exemplar for, here? Diplomacy?
    And you're correct about the Planar Cohort. Description says you have to call it, but you can't actually cast spells...
    Quote Originally Posted by Skysaber View Post
    With that in mind, I'd actually be better off taking 6 levels of Aristocrat as my first year, with Obtain Familiar and Leadership as feats
    Damn, I was hoping that nobody would think of that. I was going to disappoint Quertus in the reveal of "things happen", because one of those things is that major world leaders instantly become people's cohorts. There are thousands of people leveling, after all, and it seems likely that a small number of them would think to rush Leadership and grab a country.
    Quote Originally Posted by Skysaber View Post
    I can, at that time, ritual away all six levels of aristocrat to get Master of Many Forms levels and regain my Animorph card.
    Are you planning on using a ritual to level drain yourself, and then another to use Restoration to take different levels the second time? That's the only way to rebuild levels that I can think of (in the other thread, troaccid gave good reasons for normal rebuilding rules being unavailable IRL).

    Note that researching rituals takes a long time, so it isn't actually a valid way to speed-level yourself (this is a basic balance factor to avoid making the entire thread irrelevant). It likely won't be much slower to just level normally without taking the risks of ritual use. However if you want to rush Leadership and eventually have a good class, it is a valid strategy.
    Last edited by TalonOfAnathrax; 2020-01-08 at 04:18 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    Even without much optimization, the Diplomacy check is easily 30 (take 10 from Naberius + 7 ranks + 3 Skill Focus + 4 invested Silvertongue Mask + 6 Beguiling Influence). This makes it easier for the Animorphs team to get to the right people, places, and resources to help us with the research.

    Furthermore, a 60ft radius Motivate Intelligence should allow our friends to use Aid Another for the required Knowledge checks, since even mundane people that are untrained would still be able to make untrained Knowledge checks at DC10. I'd say a strategically placed Marshal with a range of 60ft radius could include a couple of hundred people in its effect, for a decent bonus. Masterwork tools for an additional +2 would be helpful in beating that DC10 check. Even if 50% fail the check, getting 100+ in our aided Knowledge checks isn't so bad.
    This (plus the high number of people who can "aid another" on scientific endeavors IRL) is one of the reasons why I wasn't worried about the "crazy high DCs". And, once they collectively know the DC 100 knowledge (you know, 6 seconds later), they think about something else, and know something that takes DC 200. Repeat until they know whatever arbitrary DC.

    Quote Originally Posted by TalonOfAnathrax View Post
    Stats are Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis and Cha. Those are replaced. However you keep your existing skills, and you can still learn things the normal way if you put in the time and effort despite having new skills "downloaded" into your brain as you level up.
    Basically your D&D stuff is an extra boost, but the "real you" still exists underneath and can keep doing whatever it did before. The only things that really replace parts of the "real you" are HP and stats.
    That will still result in reduced programming skill (etc) from lost Intelligence. So, it's subtractive in that regard. (Actually, one could argue that I'm fairly "optimized" to do nearly everything through brute force intellect, and that I would be hit, hard, by this)

    Quote Originally Posted by TalonOfAnathrax View Post
    It's been years since I read the 3.5 DMG, but AFAIK a cohort isn't a slave. It's a close, loyal and dependable person who respects your leadership. Leadership gives you an instant powerful ally willing to follow your orders, but not a brainwashed slave. A cohort can leave if you make it violate its morals and whatnot (however a cohort will probably die for you if it fits their character, and will certainly fight for you just like any loyal minion would).
    Just as a good slave might respect a good master. Dang. Just as a well-trained slave might respect and be dependable to (and even self-sacrificing for) a powerful master who treats them well.

    In some cases, empowering the slave strengthens that bond; in others, it could lead to a desire for freedom (regardless of whether they remain a cohort).

    Although this does bring up an interesting optimization opportunity - perhaps we could grow our numbers through recruiting and "freeing" cohorts.

    Quote Originally Posted by TalonOfAnathrax View Post
    Damn, I was hoping that nobody would think of that. I was going to disappoint Quertus in the reveal of "things happen", because one of those things is that major world leaders instantly become people's cohorts. There are thousands of people leveling, after all, and it seems likely that a small number of them would think to rush Leadership and grab a country.
    Go ahead, ask your non-gamer friends, who have never heard of D&D (or as close to that as exists in your area), what they would do in this scenario. Then tell me how many would "take 6 levels in 'bad' classes to take leadership to take over a country asap" without… (was it Plato, Socrates, Aristotle… whoever would ask leading questions to get their desired answer)… without that level of leading questions (and without the intuitive interface that I already established does not exist, so they cannot just ask, "can I get a country somehow?"). Go ahead. I'll wait. I'd say safe money is on zero to 1 of the "randoms" coming up with this plan on their own… and we can always try to ally with them later anyway. I'm feeling fairly safe that my plan of coordinated Leadership is achievable.

    This is ignoring Evil, and just… "replacing"… any world leaders we cannot Cohort in year 2, and, if we cannot position their successor, simply taking their replacement with the "year 3" batch. (Note: this "Evil" plan would be based on the notion, "is he one of yours? No? Then he must have been taken by the enemy (whatever that vague threat is, maybe it can get cohorts).". Granted, this is assuming that we can - and others are willing to -work as a coordinated whole against this unknown threat.)

    (EDIT: mind you, I have exactly zero cares for "world domination" - for me, everything is simply a means to an end; namely, "protect what I care about from whatever vague 'bad stuff' is coming")
    Last edited by Quertus; 2020-01-08 at 05:20 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Questus, your "we can pump Knowledge sky-high" plan replies on two things :
    - finding people with Knowledge and aura builds to coordinate with. They're rather absent from this thread so far. This isn't impossible, but it'll take some effort.
    - "leapfrogging" actually working. If you can make a Knowledge check, that doesn't mean that future DCs get easier because "you already know the first bit". If a group could pump their Knowledge and auto-pass all DC 100 or less checks they'd know an awful lot of stuff, but to know more they'd have to conduct research and experimentation like everybody else. And some things always require research and experimentation : a good example of this is spell research, which by RAW is always uncertain no matter how many Knowledge or Spellcraft ranks you have until you actually sit down and research it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Go ahead, ask your non-gamer friends, who have never heard of D&D (or as close to that as exists in your area), what they would do in this scenario.
    It's been established that it's possible to ask "is this possible" before picking a build. There's absolutely nothing stopping a cautious person asking questions all night long, and only making a final choice at dawn. Therefore although bad builds will be plentiful, so too will rather good ones, or at least ones with a strong gimmick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    This is ignoring Evil, and just… "replacing"… any world leaders we cannot Cohort in year 2, and, if we cannot position their successor, simply taking their replacement with the "year 3" batch.
    This works fine.
    However you can't just "fire" a cohort to give levels to someone else. If your cohort abandons you (mind control, utterly irreconcilable differences, etc), your just don't have a cohort until it dies and you can take Leadership again.

    The best way to really spread levels all around would be to take a cohort, have your cohort take a cohort, and then kill and replace your first cohort. This wouldn't get rid of the second cohort! Make sure you have Diplomacy to get all these people working with you, of course, and be aware of the fact that replacing a cohort takes a fair amount of time by RAW.
    Geez, this is a really grim way of gathering powerful people.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Quote Originally Posted by TalonOfAnathrax View Post
    Actually, this sounds like something Sinner's Garden should explain, not me. This seems like a build you can't take, sorry.
    How does this work? I was thinking about something similar using Archmage for the same reason, but I can't see how you can qualify. You can't cast spells, after all.
    Or is there some way to count as casting spells without actually having to cast them? Because the premise here is that spellcasting doesn't work.
    Actually, this is also a valid reason for Sinner's build to not work.
    Pretty sure Initiate still works because Invocations can make requirements on specific spells, although he is right that I accidentally applied a houserule on Anima Mage. It's possible to smooth it over by taking Magical Training and Sanctum Spell for a little bit, but if spellcasting doesn't work at all, then it is impossible to enter here. Which is a real pain, but would mean I might have to drop out my binding dual-focus.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Question: You mentioned on the first page taking Wedded to History for immortality, but I have seen contention on the boards that this doesn't actually make you immortal, just gives you one of the backgrounds commonly found on the immortal beings mentioned in the article from which the feat comes. Are you ruling that Wedded to History does, in fact, grant some form of immortality?

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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Quote Originally Posted by TalonOfAnathrax View Post
    Questus, your "we can pump Knowledge sky-high" plan replies on two things :
    - finding people with Knowledge and aura builds to coordinate with. They're rather absent from this thread so far. This isn't impossible, but it'll take some effort.
    - "leapfrogging" actually working. If you can make a Knowledge check, that doesn't mean that future DCs get easier because "you already know the first bit". If a group could pump their Knowledge and auto-pass all DC 100 or less checks they'd know an awful lot of stuff, but to know more they'd have to conduct research and experimentation like everybody else.
    My "crazy knowledge scheme, part 7" only requires leapfrogging to work, not aura builds or anyone with knowledge skills to begin with. "Hey, Bob, what do you know about transformational hyperdrive modulation? Nothing? OK, answer me these DC 10 questions about it (to act a sounding board, to Aid Another my roll). So, here's what I think…”. A small crowd of idiots occasionally making DC 10 checks will grant me knowledge that I did not have. Which, honestly, matches my experience IRL.

    Leapfrogging works off the dysfunction inherent in the concept of Knowledge skills. If Knowledge skills represent knowledge, then, by making the rolls, and gaining the knowledge, shouldn't the Knowledge skills go up, to represent that newly-gained knowledge?

    Or, to put it more simply, "if I cannot know the Ritual of Elan without being able to make a DC 200 Dungeoning check, by virtue of knowing the Ritual of Elan, does it not stand to reason that I have the Knowledge necessary to make a DC 200 Dungeoning check?".

    BTW, I come into play with the knowledge to become a Lich, as that ritual was published, should anyone be simultaneously dumb enough to take nonfunctional caster levels, smart enough to nonetheless qualify for the race, Evil enough to enact the ritual, and palatable to my sensibilities. What does that make my inherent Knowledge: Arcana & Religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TalonOfAnathrax View Post
    And some things always require research and experimentation : a good example of this is spell research, which by RAW is always uncertain no matter how many Knowledge or Spellcraft ranks you have until you actually sit down and research it.
    Well, sadly, it probably would after my lobotomy. Until then, I'm a genius who can often "just see" these things that other people have to "study".

    Quote Originally Posted by TalonOfAnathrax View Post
    It's been established that it's possible to ask "is this possible" before picking a build. There's absolutely nothing stopping a cautious person asking questions all night long, and only making a final choice at dawn. Therefore although bad builds will be plentiful, so too will rather good ones, or at least ones with a strong gimmick.
    I mean, all night, with the books in front of me? We'll pretend that I might get a build similar to whatever I finally go with.

    Random people who are new to the system, with the books in front of them? … OK, sure, they could read "Leadership", see what it does, and hatch this plan.

    People who do not know D&D, who are handed the opening post, and allowed to ask questions of a non-prompting AI?

    Quote Originally Posted by TalonOfAnathrax View Post
    However you can't just "fire" a cohort to give levels to someone else. If your cohort abandons you (mind control, utterly irreconcilable differences, etc), your just don't have a cohort until it dies and you can take Leadership again.

    The best way to really spread levels all around would be to take a cohort, have your cohort take a cohort, and then kill and replace your first cohort. This wouldn't get rid of the second cohort! Make sure you have Diplomacy to get all these people working with you, of course, and be aware of the fact that replacing a cohort takes a fair amount of time by RAW.
    I think that Thrullherders would be optimal for this, as they do not suffer a penalty for their cohort dieing. And it doesn't take time - 24h later, a new cohort (who suicidally agrees with your mindset) appears. (Which, if anyone can come up with a trick to make that build possible given the current restrictions, my cohort's cohort will likely be prompted to go that route).

    And, well, my goal doesn't necessitate them being my friends - they just need to sign on to defeating "the threat".

    Quote Originally Posted by TalonOfAnathrax View Post
    Geez, this is a really grim way of gathering powerful people.
    Thus the "remove my conscience, that might prevent me from doing what was necessary to protect that which I love". Starting to see why that was my first thought for a first step?
    Last edited by Quertus; 2020-01-08 at 08:24 AM.

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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    I am now thinking I should shift my build to WS Ranger 5 > MoMF 2 > Warshaper 5 > MoMF 8. I will probably need to be able to Wildshape more than once a day much more than I need the benefits of Warshaper. I'm not sure if that's actually better or if I should just finish off MoMF first, given that it gives a lot more benefits.

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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Quote Originally Posted by TotallyNotEvil View Post
    And interesting way out for VoP, given the ruling, is having a rich spouse and just constantly live in (preferably nice) hotels.

    Oh yeah, question: can we change race?
    This isn’t really “getting around” VoP, because it’s how the vow functions in an actual game. Like your party members are perpetually rich friends who take you from place to place, cover your inn stays, and stuff like that.
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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Does anyone have a solution for the lack of magical items? Without spellcasting levels or access to the appropriate spells, we are kind of in a bit of a pickle assuming the "bad stuff" we're up against runs on D&D rules too, since afaik we'd be unable to craft any of the items.

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    Quote Originally Posted by White Blade View Post
    This isn’t really “getting around” VoP, because it’s how the vow functions in an actual game. Like your party members are perpetually rich friends who take you from place to place, cover your inn stays, and stuff like that.
    So, you are telling me a simple trick to dodge most of the restrictions of VoP while still keeping the benefits isn't "getting around" VoP? Sure man, whatever you say.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    Does anyone have a solution for the lack of magical items? Without spellcasting levels or access to the appropriate spells, we are kind of in a bit of a pickle assuming the "bad stuff" we're up against runs on D&D rules too, since afaik we'd be unable to craft any of the items.
    Craft stuff with SLAs. Factotums could do it.

    While items that grant spells x/day don't work, things like, say, a Cloak of Elvenkind of Flaming Swords seem to work fine, right Talon?

    Also, is the forum sucking horribly yesterday and today, or is it just me?
    Last edited by TotallyNotEvil; 2020-01-08 at 10:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Quote Originally Posted by TalonOfAnathrax View Post
    Regarding gp : note that a gp is "a lot of money" for the purposes of this thread. Using goods to calculate the $ value of 1gp seems like a poor idea because of how crazy the prices of goods and services are in 3.5, so we'll be working off the "50 gp for a pound of gold", which brings us to "0.02 pounds of gold = 1 gp". Seeing as today's gold price is over 1500$ for 1 Troy ounce ounce of gold, and as there are about 14.5 troy ounces in a pound, 1 gp is worth over 400$.
    This weakens item crafting, and therefore works as intended.
    However, this does make it difficult to qualify for Item Familiar. Poor Truenamers.
    As noted by a response in this thread

    https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questi...ld-coins-in-dd

    Historically gold coins have not been pure gold. And even though most DND settings have high magic to easily produce and mint pure gold coins, there are a few that do not, yet the gold in those settings have the same value as in others.

    Also with the comparison of coin weight of gp to real coins supports this supposition.

    In all the % of gold used in gold coins is likely half the coins volume, or less. This would drastically change gold coin to Dollar conversions.

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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    What is your ruling on the slightly more official settings books? Kingdom's of Kalamar, Ravenloft, and Dragonlance? Heck, full on third party in general, I haven't seen a restriction as of yet, not even on edition: d20 Modern/GURPS/PF/D&D 3.5 or 3.0.

    Edit: Sans said restrictions, Gramarist ported to PF. It has massive building potential, but little to no combat ability. Doing one thing well, but their constructions can(eventually) build a wide versatility. Probably T4, maybe T3? Scientist is probably a T4, they can craft to T2, but that's not a class feature. Very limited spell selection and meh on other class abilities.

    Spoiler: Crunch
    Show
    Human: Gramarist(GEOC) 9/Scientist 7/Gramerist 1/Scientist 3
    Str 8, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 17, Wis 12, Cha 13

    Flaw: University EducationUltF
    Flaw: Basic Magical Training
    Fisrt: Adept Practitioner Progression
    Human: Advanced Magical Training

    Class: Skill Focus(Knowledge: Engineering)
    Bonus: Arcane Current
    Seventh: Create Device(Wondrous)
    Bonus: Advanced Placement(YGGD 241)
    Taint: Extra Credit, Extra Combat Talent, Craft Permanent Gadget
    Fifteenth: Extra Credit

    GEOC 101(Anima), BIOY 101(A), ARCD 101(A), HEUR 101, GEOC 117(A), GEOC 235(A), GEOC 291(A), YGGD 101(Linguistics), YGGD 212, YGGD 241
    Wyrd Wetlands, Transient Poles

    Technomancer Unified Tradition
    TechnomancyBMT, Tech, Drone, Collapsible Vehicle, Techmaniac
    Incompatible Energies, Techno-Miraculous, Skilled(Craft Mechanical), Easy Focus

    Signal Attenuator
    Automator
    Turret
    Efficient Drones x2
    Battery
    Repairable Drone
    Improved User Interface
    Emergency Gear
    Camera
    Load Bearer
    Gravity Clip
    Firefighter Equipment
    Robot
    Generator
    Strength Of A Million And Seventy


    Well nevermind, no gramaric spaceships for me.
    Last edited by Ruethgar; 2020-01-08 at 03:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Quote Originally Posted by TotallyNotEvil View Post
    So, you are telling me a simple trick to dodge most of the restrictions of VoP while still keeping the benefits isn't "getting around" VoP? Sure man, whatever you say.

    Craft stuff with SLAs. Factotums could do it.

    While items that grant spells x/day don't work, things like, say, a Cloak of Elvenkind of Flaming Swords seem to work fine, right Talon?

    Also, is the forum sucking horribly yesterday and today, or is it just me?
    I'm not the only artificer, so +x gear will be around at least. I'll even make meat shield constructs for people.

    Mmm. +5 AA12 shotguns with flechette/dragonsbreath rounds for EVERYONE!

    Also, I suspect at least one person will find a way into the Lantan artificer prc sooner or later.
    ,,,,^..^,,,,


    Quote Originally Posted by Haldir View Post
    Edit- I understand it now, Fighters are like a status symbol. If you're well off enough to own a living Fighter, you must be pretty well off!

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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Quote Originally Posted by TotallyNotEvil View Post
    So, you are telling me a simple trick to dodge most of the restrictions of VoP while still keeping the benefits isn't "getting around" VoP? Sure man, whatever you say.
    Lol, I mean if you totally ignore both the real life ways vows of poverty functioned among medieval mendicants and the way that the Vow of Poverty restricts players, then I guess you could say that it’s getting around VoP. Voluntarily poor people are often patronized by charitable giving and even specific donors. Both Buddhist and Christian mendicants had a broad array of monasteries where they were able to stay. And vow of poverty is clearly intended to subtract from characters all their gadgets, not to make the PC physically uncomfortable. Now, there are some extreme forms of self-mortification that might have that purpose but none of them are tied to an exalted feat. Your wife supporting getting you a nice bed to sleep in and an okay breakfast isn’t somehow breaking a Vow of Poverty. The purpose of such vows is to forgo attachments and to foster dependency on others, which the method you described would do just fine.

    Also, is the forum sucking horribly yesterday and today, or is it just me?
    Oh it’s slow.
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    Bandwagon Leader of the Hinjo Fanclub

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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    Question: You mentioned on the first page taking Wedded to History for immortality, but I have seen contention on the boards that this doesn't actually make you immortal, just gives you one of the backgrounds commonly found on the immortal beings mentioned in the article from which the feat comes. Are you ruling that Wedded to History does, in fact, grant some form of immortality?
    It makes you ageless (the RAI seems very clear, as does the fluff). If someone blows you to pieces, you still die.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Random people who are new to the system, with the books in front of them? … OK, sure, they could read "Leadership", see what it does, and hatch this plan.
    People who do not know D&D, who are handed the opening post, and allowed to ask questions of a non-prompting AI?
    If you ask "what are the ways of controlling people" or "what are the ways of controlling a head of state", Leadership will be one of the options. Examine the others, and you'll quickly see that it's a good one.
    Whatever happens, people are meant to be able to make builds. If it were impossible for people who don't play D&D, they wouldn't have been chosen in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by TotallyNotEvil View Post
    So, you are telling me a simple trick to dodge most of the restrictions of VoP while still keeping the benefits isn't "getting around" VoP? Sure man, whatever you say.
    I know that it's stupid, but that's exactly how it works. Of course if they "loan you things in perpetuity" any GM will balk, but regularly borrowing stuff from the same people seems to be fine. As long as it doesn't begin to feel like you own it, I'm ruling that it doesn't break the vow. This is an annoyance (you can't have your own stuff, clothes fitted to you that they own just for you, and always living in the same house tends to create a feeling of ownership...).
    Quote Originally Posted by TotallyNotEvil View Post
    Craft stuff with SLAs. Factotums could do it.
    I'm uncertain as to the rules on crafting with SLAs. If it's possible by RAW, then fine (keeping in mind that 1 gp is expensive here of course, and that you'll have to source your crafting supplies which may sometimes be weird).
    Quote Originally Posted by TotallyNotEvil View Post
    While items that grant spells x/day don't work, things like, say, a Cloak of Elvenkind of Flaming Swords seem to work fine, right Talon?
    Those are fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruethgar View Post
    What is your ruling on the slightly more official settings books? Kingdom's of Kalamar, Ravenloft, and Dragonlance? Heck, full on third party in general, I haven't seen a restriction as of yet, not even on edition: d20 Modern/GURPS/PF/D&D 3.5 or 3.0.
    I would prefer to stick to 3.5 material. 3.0 is fine if it hasn't been updated, I guess. No to those specific settings if they don't qualify as official 3.5 books. In any case literally the only things I know about them are either cool but weak choices people won't take, or wildly OP things that would break this challenge (doesn't Ravenloft have magic items that work without magic, and that could probably get around my crafting limitations?).

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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Quote Originally Posted by TalonOfAnathrax View Post
    I would prefer to stick to 3.5 material. 3.0 is fine if it hasn't been updated, I guess. No to those specific settings if they don't qualify as official 3.5 books. In any case literally the only things I know about them are either cool but weak choices people won't take, or wildly OP things that would break this challenge (doesn't Ravenloft have magic items that work without magic, and that could probably get around my crafting limitations?).
    PF gets around the XP reqs. Ravenloft wouldn't get around the requirements, but would get around the 'no spellcasting' in a manner of speaking, but it would also give a cooldown to the "magic" you tried to use and be extraordinarily expensive. Kalamar and Dragonlance I get mixed up, but the big ones there, in my mind, are Loyalty's Reward for a design your own feat, and the Master class for the potential to make/buy Legendary quality items(mostly a big deal for instruments and skill boosting items).

    Edit: Legacy of the Blood and KoK Player's Guide appear to be under official WotC license, as opposed to just mentioning the OGL like all of Mongoose Publishing, Legends&Lairs, and AEG. Is that official enough to count? Also you did not specify a solid boundary. Would PF be allowed and if so would 3PP be permitted through it such as Spheres of Power and Might?
    Last edited by Ruethgar; 2020-01-08 at 04:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    I'm thinking I could just go straight druid. Sure the spells won't work, but it seems all the other stuff like animal companion, wild shape, timeless body and thousand faces all would, and those all are incredibly useful on their own.

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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    That aristocrat to leadership build looks good. I think I'll do the same, except I'll take Expert. That way I get more skill points and can choose any ten class skills. That way I can get Lucid Dreaming, and join the research team.

    After all, what better way to do research than to tap into the collective unconscious of mankind? If nothing else, I can go into the dreams of people who we've been testing rituals on and learn what they know of it from their perspective. That probably doubles the knowledge learned from each experiment.

    Also I'll take as my cohort an Artificier. He's 4th level now, so he'll have Craft Wondrous, and can take Create Construct as his bonus feat. I'll have him create a homuculus or two for each member of the research team. A normal one to be a body servant, doing fetching and cleaning and so on, and perhaps a dedicated wright to help in rituals. Each one, knowing what their master knows, gives them another roll on each knowledge check, or at least a +2 out of aid another. Then one or two shield guardians apiece to protect us.

    He can also make items to grant competence bonuses to our skill checks, to make research go faster.

    In year 2, when he gets Craft Rod, he can make a few of those things that boost our warlocks eldritch blasts.

    In year 3, when I get high enough level for him to be 14th, he'll get Forge Ring, then we can all have Rings of Sustenance.

    Hey anybody, would it be a good idea if I were to take truespeak as one of my skills? I don't know anything about it except people here keep talking about truenamers winning at level 20.

    Edit: Oh! and make each of us one of those hand coral things. They sound useful.
    Last edited by Blue Wizard; 2020-01-08 at 05:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruethgar View Post
    PF gets around the XP reqs. Ravenloft wouldn't get around the requirements, but would get around the 'no spellcasting' in a manner of speaking, but it would also give a cooldown to the "magic" you tried to use and be extraordinarily expensive. Kalamar and Dragonlance I get mixed up, but the big ones there, in my mind, are Loyalty's Reward for a design your own feat, and the Master class for the potential to make/buy Legendary quality items(mostly a big deal for instruments and skill boosting items).

    Edit: Legacy of the Blood and KoK Player's Guide appear to be under official WotC license, as opposed to just mentioning the OGL like all of Mongoose Publishing, Legends&Lairs, and AEG. Is that official enough to count? Also you did not specify a solid boundary. Would PF be allowed and if so would 3PP be permitted through it such as Spheres of Power and Might?
    Thanks for the explanation. I've looked at it, and for the purpose of this thread I'd prefer if we didn't use PF, didn't use 3PP, and didn't use Ravenloft or KoK.
    3.5 is already a large pile of splats. I'm sure you can find something good in all of that!
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Wizard View Post
    That aristocrat to leadership build looks good. I think I'll do the same, except I'll take Expert.
    Good thought. However Expert is Tier 5, while Aristocrat is Tier 6 - so it takes one extra year to get started with Expert.
    Truespeak alone isn't that good - AFAIK you need the Truenamer class to get Gate, which is the reason why Truenamers are strong at level 20. Well, they can only use Gate if they can hit a DC 45 Truespeak check (+2 per previous activation today), which is actually rather hard without magical boosts, the Paragnostic Assembly, and Item Familiar. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying that they don't really get Gate at-will : they'll run out of uses fairly quickly. Still, seven or eight Gates a day is rather good!

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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Quote Originally Posted by TalonOfAnathrax View Post
    AFAIK their highest(level one is still worse than Panacea. Truenamers are very strong (because even a small number of Gates per day that don't cost XP is amazing, even though most of their other abilities are disappointing) but their effectiveness as Healers really depends on somehow finding a way to pump Truenaming checks without much gear, without the Paragnostic Assembly, and probably without an Item Familiar too.
    They have the equivalent to a cobbled-together Greater Restoration, plus the ability to end anything that's a spell effect, on-tap too, by the by, and a few other nifty things.

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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    I'm thinking I could just go straight druid. Sure the spells won't work, but it seems all the other stuff like animal companion, wild shape, timeless body and thousand faces all would, and those all are incredibly useful on their own.
    So do you want to join the Animorphs?

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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    Does anyone have a solution for the lack of magical items? Without spellcasting levels or access to the appropriate spells, we are kind of in a bit of a pickle assuming the "bad stuff" we're up against runs on D&D rules too, since afaik we'd be unable to craft any of the items.
    Artificers, 12th+ level Warlocks, or just take the Sculpt Self feat and get whatever magic item benefits you were jonesing for as innate powers.

    My clawlock enlightened fist will be going the Sculpt Self route, I figure the fact that it's thematically appropriate for my supernatural martial artist outweighs the cheese factor.

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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Spoiler: OP Build
    Show
    Human
    Generic Expert 4/Generic Warrior 16
    Str 8, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 16

    Flaw: Sculpt Self
    Flaw: Magical Training
    First: Silent Spell
    Human: Still Spell
    Generic: Quicken Spell
    Class: Innate Spell(Extended Shades)
    Generic: Innate Spell(Extended Greater Shadow Evocation)
    Third: Innate Spell(Extended Planar Bubble)
    Generic: Innate Spell(Mass Heal)

    Taint: Fell Animate, Innate Spell(Create Undead), Innate Spell(Fell Animate Mass Harm)
    Generic: Turning
    Class: Innate Spell(Extended Gate)
    Generic: Innate Spell(Extended Command Undead)
    Sixth: Leadership
    Generic: Innate Spell(Extended Shadow Guardians)

    Ninth: Rulership
    Generic: Innate Spell(Widen Extended Shadow Landscape)
    Twelfth: Extra Followers
    Generic: Innate Spell(Fabricate)

    Generic: Innate Spell(Polymorph Any Object)
    Fifteenth: Undead LeadershipLM
    Generic: Innate Spell(Polymorph)

    Generic: Innate Spell(Widen Locate City)
    Eighteenth: Undead Leadership
    Generic: Innate Spell(Bestow Curse)

    Lucid Dream in a Legendary Master Library of Arcana, Psionics, Spellcraft and Psicraft(+60), or Rune Circle of the Omnisipher, doesn't really matter the method. Rune Circle of Time Stop(not reliant on spells since warlocks and artificers can cheat) for whatever arbitrary years of study you require and True Creation for materials. Use that knowledge to Sculpt Self for all spells lower than 0 at will, known and bonus spells per day(Extra slot for 15k per, but Bonus Spells in item creation is more ideal).

    Similar method to become a necropilitan(next year) and add Shirt of Gentle Repose and Dark Metamorphosis(Dark Template) in the sculpt. Sculpt on Widen, Extend and Innate Spell(Restoration and Remove Curse).


    Really wanted to go thematic and decently potent, but cut off from my usual routes, so OP it is.
    Last edited by Ruethgar; 2020-01-09 at 12:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    So do you want to join the Animorphs?
    Honestly it's the thousand faces that appeals to me most, but being able to turn into a t-rex at will is pretty neat too.

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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Honestly it's the thousand faces that appeals to me most, but being able to turn into a t-rex at will is pretty neat too.
    Yeah, Thousand Faces is pretty nifty. You can sort of do it with MoMF 1 though, because you can Wildshape into a humanoid.

    I for one welcome all shapeshifters to the Animorphs.

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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Elricaltovilla View Post
    Yeah, Thousand Faces is pretty nifty. You can sort of do it with MoMF 1 though, because you can Wildshape into a humanoid.

    I for one welcome all shapeshifters to the Animorphs.
    Ah but see, that would still have a limited duration. Still, I need to figure out a few ACFs, and I could still take 1 level of MoMF since I don't benefit from spellcasting anyway and I don't particularly care about turning into a huge elemental when I can whip out the aforementioned T-Rex form.
    Last edited by RatElemental; 2020-01-08 at 08:14 PM.

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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Ah but see, that would still have a limited duration. Still, I need to figure out a few ACFs, and I could still take 1 level of MoMF since I don't benefit from spellcasting anyway and I don't particularly care about turning into a huge elemental when I can whip out the aforementioned T-Rex form.
    Elemental wildshape is actually a rather important landmark, because that's the one that grants you all of the extraordinary, supernatural and spell-like abilities of the form you wildshape into. Thus, once paired with something like MoMFs, or the feat Aberrant Wildshape, you could become, say, a Beholder and get all of its eye rays.

    Edit: And thus why Divine Minion is so important a template, as it starts you off wildshaping as an 11th level druid, and stacks. So you only need 5 more levels to get that vital elemental form.
    Last edited by Skysaber; 2020-01-08 at 08:40 PM.

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    Default Re: Class levels in real life, no spellcasting edition

    Quote Originally Posted by Skysaber View Post
    Elemental wildshape is actually a rather important landmark, because that's the one that grants you all of the extraordinary, supernatural and spell-like abilities of the form you wildshape into. Thus, once paired with something like MoMFs, or the feat Aberrant Wildshape, you could become, say, a Beholder and get all of its eye rays.

    Edit: And thus why Divine Minion is so important a template, as it starts you off wildshaping as an 11th level druid, and stacks. So you only need 5 more levels to get that vital elemental form.
    Oh I wouldn't be giving up elemental wildshape, just the capstone of being able to turn into huge ones.

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