Bring back Draketooth

[Schroeswald]

Durkon observes in 849 he's been dead twenty years or more. It's possible he handed effective control of the clan over to his heir before he died, and that heir instigated the child abduction program, but that's a weak hypothesis.

Actually 846. But I'm confused by your second sentence, more than twenty years, that leaves 5+ years between the earliest baby stealing we know of and his death, plenty of time for this scheme to be instituted (I'm not saying that Girard didn't start it, I'm just saying that whoever the heir was instituting it isn't a weak hypothesis).

[Riftwolf]

OK weak hypothesis was a wrong choice of words. Looking at evidence (the family tree in the pyramid), the children may have been a more recent invention (as Girards extended family realised if they wanted to prevent inbreeding, they couldn't rely on persuading outsiders into their cult to raise the next generation.) as the number of children accelerates on the lower lines. However, it could still be a Girard invention; just because the first documented case was likely after his death, we shouldnt assume it was the first or last (it has something to do with tank numbers?). If the reason for claiming the child abduction began after Girards death is to somehow vindicate Girard of wrongdoing, that's the weak part for me.

[factotum]

OK weak hypothesis was a wrong choice of words. Looking at evidence (the family tree in the pyramid), the children may have been a more recent invention

V says in #843 that "The Draketooth Clan spent 60 years propagating itself by mating with random outsiders and then disappearing with the child". So, *he* certainly believes they've been doing this since before Girard died.

[Mike Havran]

OK weak hypothesis was a wrong choice of words. Looking at evidence (the family tree in the pyramid), the children may have been a more recent invention (as Girards extended family realised if they wanted to prevent inbreeding, they couldn't rely on persuading outsiders into their cult to raise the next generation.) as the number of children accelerates on the lower lines. However, it could still be a Girard invention; just because the first documented case was likely after his death, we shouldnt assume it was the first or last (it has something to do with tank numbers?). If the reason for claiming the child abduction began after Girards death is to somehow vindicate Girard of wrongdoing, that's the weak part for me.

My original point contested the poster who fit the child abduction & robbery scheme with Girard's confirmed Chaotic Neutral alignment (IMO, it doesn't fit very well). In dubio pro reo, I say.

In fact, the only thing that points towards Girard is V's statement and we have no idea if it's based on anything tangible (I kinda doubt the abduction strategy was inscribed somewhere on the murals). The flashback panels with the murders did happen, but in is quite uncertain whether those people were victims of child abduction scheme, or merely lovers or distant family of the Draketooths.

It is also possible the only abductor was Orrin and he was a maverick in this. it explains why Penelope hasn't met anyone else who had been wronged by a Draketooth despite searching for her child for years, and why Tarquin and his buddies haven't moved against what they would inevitably perceive as a well-orgainzed competitive group of villains.

[factotum]

It is also possible the only abductor was Orrin and he was a maverick in this. it explains why Penelope hasn't met anyone else who had been wronged by a Draketooth despite searching for her child for years, and why Tarquin and his buddies haven't moved against what they would inevitably perceive as a well-orgainzed competitive group of villains.

Possible, but not supported by any evidence in the comic--there were quite a few children dead in the pyramid, were they all Orrin's? Also, I think you're overestimating just how big the Draketooth clan are. At a rough estimate, given how many of them there were and how many children we saw in the pyramid, they were doing child abductions maybe once a year--twice a year at most. And they have millions of humans spread across the entire Western Continent to choose from when picking their targets. It could be decades between them visiting the same town or city for a second time, so Penelope not finding anyone else who'd had the same experience doesn't really mean anything.

Also, where does "a well-organised competitive group of villains" come from? Even if Tarquin et al. had noticed an unusually large number of abducted children--which seems unlikely in the extreme, given the numbers--why would they assume this is an organised gang of villains and move against them, when the only evidence they would have is that the kidnapper has red hair? How would they even know where to look for said villains? You'll note from strip #821 that Nale was only able to narrow down the location to Windy Canyon after months of divinations, with more information available to him about the Draketooths than Tarquin ever had.

[The Aboleth]

Possible, but not supported by any evidence in the comic--there were quite a few children dead in the pyramid, were they all Orrin's? Also, I think you're overestimating just how big the Draketooth clan are. At a rough estimate, given how many of them there were and how many children we saw in the pyramid, they were doing child abductions maybe once a year--twice a year at most. And they have millions of humans spread across the entire Western Continent to choose from when picking their targets. It could be decades between them visiting the same town or city for a second time, so Penelope not finding anyone else who'd had the same experience doesn't really mean anything.

Also, where does "a well-organised competitive group of villains" come from? Even if Tarquin et al. had noticed an unusually large number of abducted children--which seems unlikely in the extreme, given the numbers--why would they assume this is an organised gang of villains and move against them, when the only evidence they would have is that the kidnapper has red hair? How would they even know where to look for said villains? You'll note from strip #821 that Nale was only able to narrow down the location to Windy Canyon after months of divinations, with more information available to him about the Draketooths than Tarquin ever had.

I think it's also important to note that the Western Continent is an extremely volatile environment politically, with new empires regularly rising and falling. It's possible, and I would hypothesize quite likely, that many of the abducted children were written off as war casualties--either because it was assumed they and/or the Draketooth parent "died," or because a few abductees would barely register in an environment that regularly sees violence and instability.

[DaOldeWolf]

I kind of wonder how cooperative a member of such a paranoid family would be even if they could be revived. Would they believe what happened while they were dead? Would they believe the people who revived them to be part of the good side?

[factotum]

I kind of wonder how cooperative a member of such a paranoid family would be even if they could be revived. Would they believe what happened while they were dead? Would they believe the people who revived them to be part of the good side?

The person being resurrected knows the alignment of the person resurrecting them, but that would make them *less* likely to trust them in this case, because they'd just assume the Lawful Good person doing the resurrection was associated with Soon and his paladins.

[Aquillion]

Worth pointing out that Durkon and Hilgya both have Plane Shift, which means they could shift to their afterlife and talk to them personally before going for a resurrection.

[Peelee]

Worth pointing out that Durkon and Hilgya both have Plane Shift, which means they could shift to their afterlife and talk to them personally before going for a resurrection.

In much the same way that I have a car, so I could drive to California and talk to Arnold Schwarzenegger.

It being possible and it being feasible are two very different things.

[factotum]

Worth pointing out that Durkon and Hilgya both have Plane Shift, which means they could shift to their afterlife and talk to them personally before going for a resurrection.

Even assuming that happens--and as Peelee points out, it's not quite as simple as you're making out here--why would the dead Draketooth clan have any more reason to trust Durkon and Hilgya if they spoke to them directly? These are guys who were convinced that a *paladin* (of all people) would break their oath, they're not going to believe anything anyone tells them.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Draketooth may have died of old age, which means nothing can bring him back.

The comic didn't show what happened to the body, but presumably the order removed it from the casket when they hid in it. Three and a half people is a lot for a one person casket already. The explosion may have disintegrated or fractured the bones, but it definitely would have scattered them.

Locating a piece of the body would require having specifically Durkon (the only living caster to have seen Girard's corpse) cast locate object. Assuming any piece survived the explosion, the snarl, and the sweaters.

[MReav]

I am NOT saying this is a plot hole
There are plenty of reasons why this wouldn't work and the characters might not even think of this at this point.



But regardless, during the pyramid investigation, Durkon couldn't bring back any of the Draketooth clan to life. They said because Durkon is Lawful Good, the Draketooth clan would assume he's a paladin and ignore him.

But... What about Hilga? She's clearly not "lawful good" and most likely the Draktooth will return if she called.
Haley kept saying that Gerard was like her father and we know the thieves are pretty close to clerics of Loki in general.


It's possible not enough of the bodies is left after the explosion, or after Tarquin was done with the place (maybe the Snarl too) so it's surely not a plot hole or anything. Plus Hilga isn't likely to agree to go anywhere near Tarquin and her face was on the posters there.

But I find it funny just to think "what if" someone would have suggested that Hilga would do a small sidestep to bring back someone who knows a lot more about the gates.

I would say the problems with this idea are threefold:

1. Why would they trust Hilgya? Just because they don't trust paladins doesn't mean they would automatically trust people on the opposite side. They might view paladins as jack-booted authoritarians who try to run roughshod over your rights for the greater good, but they would likely view clerics of Loki as selfish, backstabbing exploiters who will ditch you to a horrible fate the moment it becomes convenient to them.

2. The explosion probably scattered their remains far and wide what wasn't vaporized. It was difficult enough to find a pyramid in a random desert, now imagine bits and pieces that scavengers would be happy to eat.

3. There's a Snarl in the vicinity. Hanging around the area where the god-killing abomination is is going to end badly. And they can scout the area via divinations, so even if they don't know now, they can easily enough.

[Quizatzhaderac]

they're not going to believe anything anyone tells them.

Durkon: Hello, I'm here today...
Draketooth: I don't believe you!
Durkon: I haven't said anything yet!
Draketooth: You might be a projection and not really here. Or maybe there's some time delay thing and you were here yesterday, and I'm only seeing/hearing you now. Also, "hello" is derived from "halouen" which detonates shouting, whereas you actually greeted me in a moderate tone...