O-Chul could've talked Miko down

[Ionathus]

In anticipation of Book Final, I've been rereading How the Paladin Got His Scar, and it just keeps impressing me how badass O-Chul is, and how glad I am that he'll be present for the final chapter.

And on a different note, I appreciate how much of a foil he is for most of The Order, with his older years and greater emotional maturity.

The Miko/Roy fight Post-Fall has always bugged me a bit, mostly because of Roy's lack of compassion. If you watch, there are moments where Miko seems to be truly on the edge of repentance, but then Roy shows up and attacks, and especially gives her a verbal beatdown as well. By the time he's gotten her riled up, not even Hinjo can talk her down.

Now, I'm definitely happy with how the scene played out, and Roy isn't required to be a paragon of virtue in every situation of course. The scene was there for him to rant about Miko and finally best her in a duel, and it was satisfying in that regard. But if Durkon or especially O-Chul (both of whom Miko held in higher regard) had been there, they would have probably stopped her from going even more renegade and breaking the gemstone -- despite neither of them having much Charisma!

Like I said, not everybody has to have every strength, and I like stories where someone has to play to their weaknesses. It's been interesting to watch Roy's journey as a leader who's maybe 3rd or even 4th best amongst the Order for amount of empathy: many of the great leaders I've known in real life are much more tuned-in to others.

[Grey Watcher]

I don't know. I don't think she has any more respect for O-Chul than for Hinjo, so I don't know if that would give him any advantage. She seems to have a little bit of a classist streak to her, buying into the notion that noble birth counts for something in terms of moral authority (and responsibility, but that's beside the point for this discussion0. O-Chul is a commoner by birth, while Hinjo, as the literal heir to throne is above her in the social hierarchy.

If you want to use the backstory in the prequel books (which, admittedly was written years later), she's pretty openly contemptuous of O-Chul before he joins the Guard. She does come to him for exactly one piece of advice afterwards, but she misinterprets his answer and refuses to even listen to him when he tries to clarify. Yeah, being a fellow member of the Sapphire Guard means she gives him a certain degree of professional courtesy, but that's as far as it seems to go.

Both by her noble birth and the fact that she's been working with Guard longer than O-Chul (even if she wasn't a fully-fledged Paladin at the time), she considers O-Chul beneath her and I don't think would listen to much of anything he had to say. (Yes, Hinjo's been in the Guard even less time than either her or O-Chul, but I think, in her eyes, his noble birth offsets this deficiency, while O-Chul's common birth compounds it.)

I don't think Roy fighting her made any real difference. She was already convinced that he was part of all the bad stuff going on right now and has come to literal blows with him on two prior occasions, so I don't know if this tussle would really changer her assessment of the situation, even on an emotional level.

For Durkon, I don't know if "trusted him more than anyone else in the Order" translates to "trusted him above a fellow paladin and Sapphire Guardsperson (ie Hinjo)." And even if at some point she did, I think that ship sailed when Durkon refused to help her murder Belkar after the trial.

I think Hinjo got her as close to surrendering as was possible. She was clearly on the brink of doing so, but she let her pride get the better of her at the last second.

[Themrys]

It's been interesting to watch Roy's journey as a leader who's maybe 3rd or even 4th best amongst the Order for amount of empathy: many of the great leaders I've known in real life are much more tuned-in to others.

Really?

From what I have observed, empathy, compassion and the ability to see other people's point of view are extremely rare virtues.

If you really know a lot of leaders who are like that, you are truly blessed.


But I do think that O-Chul could have talked Miko down. Not by using his personal charms or status, but by using his wisdom and compassion.

[Ionathus]

I don't think Roy fighting her made any real difference. She was already convinced that he was part of all the bad stuff going on right now and has come to literal blows with him on two prior occasions, so I don't know if this tussle would really changer her assessment of the situation, even on an emotional level

I disagree. Check out these panels, immediately after her fall. Belkar's shouting in the background and Hinjo has run up to Shojo's corpse. Miko is alone, and in shock. She's got the "scared eyes" expression and is quietly questioning herself.

Enter Roy, the first person to interact with her, and his first words to her are "Here's a thought: who the hell cares?" followed by a sword to the face. Of course her only option is to turn and fight. Of course she sees no other way out than "everyone is corrupt". Roy has removed all other paths of least resistance (talking it out, etc).

I absolutely see this as a tipping point, and were circumstances different, someone else could have talked her down in that moment. Heck, even Hinjo might've been able to do it, right now, BEFORE Roy aggravated her further.

Miko is classist? I've never gotten that impression from her: her overwhelming trait in my eyes has always been keeping a moral high ground, rather than a social one. I can't think of any time she showed classist tendencies, and her more memorable moments stand out as upholding law over nobility. Remember that time Miko

Spoiler: How the Paladin Got His Scar

Show

killed still-a-noble Gin-Jun in cold blood for violating the rules of the duel

?

If you have other examples I'm not remembering I'd be happy to see them, but I think she would see O-Chul as a person of strong morals and might be willing to turn to him in this instance.

From what I have observed, empathy, compassion and the ability to see other people's point of view are extremely rare virtues.
If you really know a lot of leaders who are like that, you are truly blessed.

Not so much that I know a lot of leaders who were that great, but all the ones who HAVE been really good often have those virtues. In that regard, I do count myself lucky.

But I do think that O-Chul could have talked Miko down. Not by using his personal charms or status, but by using his wisdom and compassion.

Thank you, that's my thought too! Someone a little more patient or a little less trigger-happy might've succeeded here by means of careful negotiations with a potentially-hostile entity: something O-Chul has proven himself at multiple times.

[Synesthesy]

But if Durkon or especially O-Chul (both of whom Miko held in higher regard) had been there, they would have probably stopped her from going even more renegade and breaking the gemstone -- despite neither of them having much Charisma!

I don't care about stats, O-Chul is the most charismatic good character ever.

[Rogar Demonblud]

There's also the detail that O-Chul, being O-Chul, could tank anything she dished out.

[Themrys]

There's also the detail that O-Chul, being O-Chul, could tank anything she dished out.

I don't think she would have attacked. She clearly was horrified at having fallen.

Anyone offering a reasonable explanation for why that happened would have been able to get her attention for a while.

Attacking was really an extremely unwise course of action.


Heck, even V would have been able to defuse the situation better. V would have explained exactly what Miko did wrong, and how V was going to kill her ... possibly even to the point of unintentionally making Miko fall asleep.

[Riftwolf]

There's also the detail that O-Chul, being O-Chul, could tank anything she dished out.

O-Chul: he speaks quietly, and carries a big CON.

[Anymage]

I absolutely see this as a tipping point, and were circumstances different, someone else could have talked her down in that moment. Heck, even Hinjo might've been able to do it, right now, BEFORE Roy aggravated her further.

I'm not saying that couldn't happen, but you can't say that it would either. Miko was almost ready to stand down when Hinjo tried talking to her (who she likely held in at least as high regard as O-Chul), but then her megalomania kicked in and insisted that this was just another part in her grand destiny.

Things might've tipped the other way if Hinjo had stepped in immediately post-fall, but only in the sense that a key die roll might have gone the other way if made by someone else or at some other time. I really don't know that O-Chul stepping up at that point would've had any better odds than if Hinjo had done the same thing before Roy involved himself.

[NontheistCleric]

I don't care about stats, O-Chul is the most charismatic good character ever.

Or perhaps, he is simply so awesome it doesn't matter whether or not he is personally charismatic.

[Grey Watcher]

I disagree. Check out these panels, immediately after her fall. Belkar's shouting in the background and Hinjo has run up to Shojo's corpse. Miko is alone, and in shock. She's got the "scared eyes" expression and is quietly questioning herself.

To me, it reads that she's shocked and bewildered by the gods' reaction. She still seems (based on the bits of thinking-out-loud she does) to think she found all the clues, interpreted them correctly, and took the most appropriate course of action. What's confusing and scary is that, despite doing everything right, the gods punished her for it. The situation makes no sense to her, but I don't see any evidence she it's even occurred to her that she might be the problem. So she stands there in stunned confusion for a few panels.

Enter Roy, the first person to interact with her, and his first words to her are "Here's a thought: who the hell cares?" followed by a sword to the face. Of course her only option is to turn and fight. Of course she sees no other way out than "everyone is corrupt". Roy has removed all other paths of least resistance (talking it out, etc).

I absolutely see this as a tipping point, and were circumstances different, someone else could have talked her down in that moment. Heck, even Hinjo might've been able to do it, right now, BEFORE Roy aggravated her further.

Roy reminding her of her new favorite scapegoat (the Order) was probably a dumb move, yes. But I think all he did was speed up the transition from bewilderment to lashing out. The what and why wouldn't have changed, just the when.

Even if Hinjo had confronted her first instead of checking on his uncle, I don't think it would've gone any better. He DID talk her down. After all the sword swinging he got her back to "I'm so confused" and on the point of handing over her sword. If her tussle with Roy had been what prevented her from going through with it, I would expect her to shout something along the lines of "You're in league with them, too!" rather than the "tainted courts," line she gives. It's not about Roy. It's that she'd rather blame all of Azure City if she has to rather than herself.

Miko is classist? I've never gotten that impression from her: her overwhelming trait in my eyes has always been keeping a moral high ground, rather than a social one. I can't think of any time she showed classist tendencies, and her more memorable moments stand out as upholding law over nobility. Remember that time Miko

Spoiler: How the Paladin Got His Scar

Show

killed still-a-noble Gin-Jun in cold blood for violating the rules of the duel

?

If you have other examples I'm not remembering I'd be happy to see them, but I think she would see O-Chul as a person of strong morals and might be willing to turn to him in this instance.

I don't mean to say that she holds class above all other considerations, but I think it... colors her perceptions somewhat. Yes, once Gin-Jin breaks the law, that's the most important consideration for her. But up to that point, she's so much more respectful and deferential to him than she is to just about anybody else.

There's a bonus comic in War and XP where she's chewing out some of her colleagues over dining at a restaurant where she once observed gambling. I'll have to go and reread the page, but I thought that she cited noble station as well as Paladin piety as "Why you are obligated to set an example by avoiding the place." I have to double check that when I get home.

Plus she makes a point of loudly proclaiming her lineage when she introduces herself, alongside her status as a Paladin.

I'll concede the class thing might be me reading too much into things, though.

Even if she isn't as biased against him as I seem to think, I don't know that she necessarily recognizes him as more moral than any other Paladin. He did stand against the Guard in their fight against the hobgoblins. She never really learned that her side was in the wrong there, despite Gin-Jun's subsequent fall from grace.

O-Chul, for all his passion and persistence, I'd not a miracle worker. He can't persuade someone who's already made up their mind: Gin-Jin, the hobgoblin general, Redcloak... . Even with the old Supreme Leader, the best he could get was "no war just yet, but it's totally coming."

Maybe O-Chul would have done no worse, but I can't plausibly imagine him doing better, either (regardless of Roy's... enthusiasm). But it's a hypothetical within a fictional universe, so who can really say?

[CriticalFailure]

I agree Hinjo may have been able to if he'd talked to her before Roy attacked. Also I like the image of V logically explaining everything she did wrong at length :)

I don't really see her being more deferential to Hinjo as showing classism: she's served the Lord of Azure City since she was 13 and she's known that Hinjo would be the next Lord for a long time. I guess you could say that everyone who willfully participated in an aristocratic government is classist to some degree, but she doesn't really stick out from other Lawful Azurites in that regard.

O-Chul was able to win over the MitD because he had time and an audience that was willing to listen. His wisdom counts for a lot but I think that it is more helpful for leading by example, rather than straight up persuasion in the heat of the moment. I agree he would show more compassion than Roy, but Hinjo also showed more compassion.

[Ionathus]

O-Chul was able to win over the MitD because he had time and an audience that was willing to listen. His wisdom counts for a lot but I think that it is more helpful for leading by example, rather than straight up persuasion in the heat of the moment. I agree he would show more compassion than Roy, but Hinjo also showed more compassion.

That's a good point about having time vs. heat of the moment: O-Chul is a strong negotiator but I agree that he's not at first glance what you'd call a typical "Face" of the party for diplomacy.

I definitely think there was only a chance for a non-Roy character to succeed at this: hence the "could've" rather than "would've" in the thread's title. I'm presenting my best case for O-Chul but I concede that even he would've had a long shot vs. Miko's rationalizations.

If others are interested in that discussion, I'd love to also hear people's thoughts on Roy that I voiced originally. He's certainly a Good person and a Good leader and he cares about protecting innocents, but do others think he's below-average amongst the Order for ability to empathize with someone unlike him? Honestly only V and Belkar have less empathy, in my mind.

[JustinKase]

...
If others are interested in that discussion, I'd love to also hear people's thoughts on Roy that I voiced originally. He's certainly a Good person and a Good leader and he cares about protecting innocents, but do others think he's below-average amongst the Order for ability to empathize with someone unlike him? Honestly only V and Belkar have less empathy, in my mind.

Roy attacking Miko certainly didn't help - and his followup taunts and digs further drove her down the path.

If Roy had not gotten involved, I think Hinjo might have been able to prevail to her, with the added 'new evidence' of her judgement from the Gods. It actually seemed rather pointless for Roy to even get involved at that point (other than out of anger and long frustration with her), if anything, he should have taken a defensive posture and waited on Hinjo's move. But, you know how PCs are, the story revolves around them ;)

I think O-Chul could have talked her down, perhaps even calling back to how they first met or pointing to his scar and saying "Don't you think I know something about the danger of secrets?" Or something.

As to Roy's empathy, I think he is more empathetic than most of the rest of his Team. He at least makes efforts to take them into consideration and tends to be less egocentric than most of the others.

Durkon may be more self sacrificing, but I don't see him as very empathetic - he is doing good by his code and following the "Golden Rule" or trying to treat others with respect and kindness, but not necessarily empathy. Though that does come more when they delve into him in the later episodes.

Elan seems to show the most empathy and I think he often helps Roy along the path at times ;)

[King of Nowhere]

I disagree. Check out these panels, immediately after her fall. Belkar's shouting in the background and Hinjo has run up to Shojo's corpse. Miko is alone, and in shock. She's got the "scared eyes" expression and is quietly questioning herself.

but in the 6th panel, BEFORE roy got involved, she already picked up her sword again. and she's questioning the path the gods set her to.
so, while roy proved the first good scapegoat for her, it's entirely reasonable to assume that she was going to lash out at someone else anyway.

miko was in shock because she was punished (by the only authority figure she really sees as above her) and didn't understood why. But the problem is, she still didn't understood why, and she never said anything suggesting she was at fault. the gods should have dropped a note too.

[CriticalFailure]

As to Roy's empathy, I think he is more empathetic than most of the rest of his Team. He at least makes efforts to take them into consideration and tends to be less egocentric than most of the others.

Durkon may be more self sacrificing, but I don't see him as very empathetic - he is doing good by his code and following the "Golden Rule" or trying to treat others with respect and kindness, but not necessarily empathy. Though that does come more when they delve into him in the later episodes.

Elan seems to show the most empathy and I think he often helps Roy along the path at times ;)

Yeah I agree about Durkon, and Roy, Roy is usually pretty empathetic, just not towards Miko. It seems like Elan has the most general sympathy for people in that he feels sad when others feel sad or bad, but I think in terms of strictly empathy he has some problems understanding how/why people are feeling certain ways. Such as his sometimes inability to tell when people are annoyed at his antics. So I’d say he’s highly sympathetic more than highly empathetic.

[georgie_leech]

but in the 6th panel, BEFORE roy got involved, she already picked up her sword again. and she's questioning the path the gods set her to.
so, while roy proved the first good scapegoat for her, it's entirely reasonable to assume that she was going to lash out at someone else anyway.

miko was in shock because she was punished (by the only authority figure she really sees as above her) and didn't understood why. But the problem is, she still didn't understood why, and she never said anything suggesting she was at fault. the gods should have dropped a note too.

"We sent a bolt of divine blue lightning of judgement, what more do you want?!"

[Rogar Demonblud]

That's a good point about having time vs. heat of the moment: O-Chul is a strong negotiator but I agree that he's not at first glance what you'd call a typical "Face" of the party for diplomacy.

Hence my remark about being able to tank whatever Miko threw at him. O-Chul could sit on the defensive and let her wear herself down, politely chatting all the while. And they have history, so she understands where he stands on some issues.

[Themrys]

If others are interested in that discussion, I'd love to also hear people's thoughts on Roy that I voiced originally. He's certainly a Good person and a Good leader and he cares about protecting innocents, but do others think he's below-average amongst the Order for ability to empathize with someone unlike him? Honestly only V and Belkar have less empathy, in my mind.

Not sure. Durkon displayed extreme lack of empathy with Hilgya. So in terms of having empathy for women he is attracted to, he is no better than Roy. He might be better at empathizing with people he is not attracted to, though. Unlike Roy, he did understand that the whole pretending to be a king stunt would not impresss Miko the tiniest bit ... but that could also be due to Durkon not being that impressed himself. Then again, Roy is allegedly lawful, too ... or tries to be.

The only group members who have been shown to empathize with people of the other sex that they are attracted to are Haley and Elan. Elan lacks the intelligence to realize why Haley is angry at him for sleeping with other women, but he can see that she is angry, and he tends to feel bad when others feel bad ... if he notices. He also seemed concerned about Therkla, though I am not sure if he was attracted to her.

Haley is very consistent about protecting Elan's feelings, which requires understanding said feelings.


If we assume that, in the Mindflayer scene, empathy is the trait that sweetens people's brains, it makes sense. Elan is diet coke (sweetness, without calories = empathy without intelligence) while Haley is icecream (empathy plus intelligence). Durkon is something that could be porridge, and might be sweetened with honey or sugar ... or not.

[CriticalFailure]

Miko was significantly more powerful than O-Chul and had beaten him before. He’d last longer than average against him but he couldn’t just keep tanking her.

Also, I think that stuff with Elan above points to him being more sympathetic than empathetic. He feels bad when other people are upset but he doesn’t necessarily understand why they feel or quite how they feel.

[Vinyadan]

O-Chul has bad charisma. Talking wouldn't have done anything.

However, he is convincing because he asks people to do as they saw him do.

The question is, what heroic action did she see him perform that could convince Miko to do as he did and accept... that she just murdered her liege as samurai and leader as a paladin, and that she has been jumping to conclusions?

[Themrys]

Miko was significantly more powerful than O-Chul and had beaten him before. He’d last longer than average against him but he couldn’t just keep tanking her.

Also, I think that stuff with Elan above points to him being more sympathetic than empathetic. He feels bad when other people are upset but he doesn’t necessarily understand why they feel or quite how they feel.

I was under the impression that empathy means "feeling bad when other people feel bad". Psychopaths are said to lack empathy, and they're extremely good at telling when and why other people feel bad - it just doesn't make them feel bad.

Anyway, someone feeling bad because she feels bad would have done more to make Miko listen than Roy telling her that he doesn't care about how she feels. (Elan might also have been able to talk Miko down. He would have been qualified to explain exactly what happened - a tragic misunderstanding - and why the gods let it happen - because it makes a good story. He could also have told Miko what to do next to get a cool redemption arc.)

[Ionathus]

Not sure. Durkon displayed extreme lack of empathy with Hilgya. So in terms of having empathy for women he is attracted to, he is no better than Roy. He might be better at empathizing with people he is not attracted to, though.

That's a good point: I didn't really consider this scenario (or Durkon's treatment of Hilgya) in terms of it being with a prior romantic interest. In that capacity I agree: both Durkon and Roy handled it poorly and didn't show lots of empathy to what their counterparts (Hilgya and Miko) were feeling in the moment.

I also really like the observation of Elan as sympathetic rather than empathetic: doesn't know how to process others' emotions, but he knows enough to feel bad when they do.

I see Haley as more empathetic because she's got lots of "street smarts" and has a good read on people. She was the one who called out Redcloak's Shell Game, and Girard's desert bluffs. She was immediately keyed into Tarquin's true nature, she talked Crystal down, she...well, she found somewhat successful ways of controlling Belkar.

To me, empathy is being able to take a measure of a person, and see things from their point of view. Be able to "think like them," as it were and figure out what they need from an interaction. O-Chul demonstrates that, as does Haley, and Durkon definitely has it in spades thanks to his upbringing (though he's got blinders on when it comes to Hilgya, and he's not proactive or Charismatic enough to make good use of it normally).

Though Roy is a good person, a strong leader, and he makes good decisions, he seems to more frequently project his own desires onto others rather than actually reading the situation. For example, thoughts like

• "I want Belkar to be wrong about Durkon",
• "Vamp Durkon is helping because nothing has changed",
• "Miko and I are definitely compatible", and
• "Belkar will always be a pain in the ass so I can ignore his Character Development(TM)"

are all more-or-less passable conclusions, but maybe not the best conclusions based on available information.

I was under the impression that empathy means "feeling bad when other people feel bad". Psychopaths are said to lack empathy, and they're extremely good at telling when and why other people feel bad - it just doesn't make them feel bad.

Anyway, someone feeling bad because she feels bad would have done more to make Miko listen than Roy telling her that he doesn't care about how she feels. (Elan might also have been able to talk Miko down. He would have been qualified to explain exactly what happened - a tragic misunderstanding - and why the gods let it happen - because it makes a good story. He could also have told Miko what to do next to get a cool redemption arc.)

Regarding people labeled psychopaths in pop culture: the scariest thing about those characters IS their profound sense of empathy coupled with an absolute lack of sympathy. They know exactly how to make you hurt and it won't hurt them to do so at all.

I've always understood sympathy as feeling the same feelings as another person, and empathy as understanding the feelings and viewpoint of another person. I like the idea that Elan simply being there and being a neutral/benign voice rather than a potential opponent could have helped Miko.

[HorizonWalker]

I was under the impression that empathy means "feeling bad when other people feel bad". Psychopaths are said to lack empathy, and they're extremely good at telling when and why other people feel bad - it just doesn't make them feel bad.

No, empathy really is defined as understanding how people feel. Feeling bad when other people feel bad is sympathy, and is something plenty of low-empathy people manage all the time... once they do, in fact, realize that other people feel bad, which they have trouble with. But, of course, neither empathy nor sympathy really amount to much of use- for the act of trying to help when someone feels bad, the word you want is compassion.

[Themrys]

No, empathy really is defined as understanding how people feel. Feeling bad when other people feel bad is sympathy, and is something plenty of low-empathy people manage all the time... once they do, in fact, realize that other people feel bad, which they have trouble with. But, of course, neither empathy nor sympathy really amount to much of use- for the act of trying to help when someone feels bad, the word you want is compassion.

So you would call the ability to look at a person and feel what they feel (and that way figure out WHAT they feel) sympathy rather than empathy?

I am bad at seeing on people's faces what they feel (OotS is an exception, as even I can see the lines around Miko's eyes after her murder of Shojo and subsequent fall), but I can, rationally, recognize why they feel like that, to some extent, or even make reasonably accurate guesses as to how they feel just from knowing the circumstances. Heck, I might actually be good at it,compared to some other people, but I only ever notice that when talking to people on the internet. In real life, I'm the kind of person who doesn't notice when others are bored by what I say.

Compassion ... is actually what you call sympathy. It translates to German "Mitleid" which re-translates to "with" and "suffering". Not saying you are wrong with what it is defined as meaning today, as non-native speaker, I can't be sure, but that's the literal meaning.
In German, there's no specific word for "trying to help people because you feel bad that they feel bad" that I could think of right now. Of course, compassion pretty much implies that you will do something, because no one likes to feel bad.

[Dion]

No, empathy really is defined as understanding how people feel. Feeling bad when other people feel bad is sympathy,

Two broad classifications of empathy are “cognitive empathy” and “emotional empathy”.

Cognitive empathy is the ability to know what other people are feeling (and more broadly, the ability to manipulate the feelings of others). People on the autistic spectrum seem to have very little cognitive empathy. What we think of as the “cinematic” psychopaths have a lot of it.

Emotional empathy is the ability to feel the same thing someone else feels (you are happy when others are happy, sad when others are sad, and uncomfortable when others are uncomfortable). Psychopaths have very little emotional empathy. Many people on the autistic spectrum have a lot of it.

There are other types of empathy (for example, somatic empathy and compassionate empathy) but cognitive and emotional empathy are the two big ones.

The most important thing to remember is “empathy” isn’t just one thing. Most people have both emotional empathy and cognitive empathy. Some people have a lot of one and none of the other.

[JustinKase]

Yeah I agree about Durkon, and Roy, Roy is usually pretty empathetic, just not towards Miko. It seems like Elan has the most general sympathy for people in that he feels sad when others feel sad or bad, but I think in terms of strictly empathy he has some problems understanding how/why people are feeling certain ways. Such as his sometimes inability to tell when people are annoyed at his antics. So I’d say he’s highly sympathetic more than highly empathetic.

I totally agree with Elan being a more sympathetic person - very good point :) So, by default, this may make Roy the most empathetic of the group at that time . . . even if not in that situation :P

[King of Nowhere]

"We sent a bolt of divine blue lightning of judgement, what more do you want?!"

surprisingly enough, that's not as clear a message as it's supposed to be.
what does it mean? sojo was right and miko was wrong? sojo was wrong but miko took a wrong stance? shojo was right but he was tricked by someone else? yeah, must be that one...

I was under the impression that empathy means "feeling bad when other people feel bad". Psychopaths are said to lack empathy, and they're extremely good at telling when and why other people feel bad - it just doesn't make them feel bad.

under that definition, i don't think durkon can be said to lack empathy. he takes the suffering of others at least as seriously as his own, if not more seriously.
of course that's because he's so stoic, he doesn't pay any mind to his own suffering in the face of duty and obligation. and he expects it to hold for everyone else. and he is pretty bad at understanding motivations other than duty, obligation and honor.

[CriticalFailure]

I agree with the person who said Haley might have decent empathy especially cognitive as a form of street smarts.

Shouldn’t cognitive empathy or general ability to understand what someone is feeling correlate to Wisdom and Sense Motive in terms of D&D stats? Durkon has the highest wisdom but since it relates to so many things it seems likely he has that due to other factors based on some of his interactions like people have pointed out.

[Dion]

Shouldn’t cognitive empathy or general ability to understand what someone is feeling correlate to Wisdom and Sense Motive in terms of D&D stats?

In "real life", the trait that psychologists label cognitive empathy is probably most closely related to charisma.

Cognitive empathy might be described as an intuitive understanding of the emotional state of others, and is strongly correlated with the skill to manipulate the emotional state of others.

Wisdom might gives you the ability to intellectually understand someone's emotions, and make decisions based on that understanding. Cognitive empathy gives you the ability to read and redirect those emotions in real time.

(Elan is probably a poor model for how cognitive empathy works. If I had to come up with an explanation that matched what we know about him, I'd say: Elan's high charisma makes him very good at intuitively reading and manipulating the emotions of others in real time, but his low wisdom makes it difficult for him to understand or make reasonable decisions based on the emotions of others.)