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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    Picard takes a lot of liberties with Star Trek canon, but I just don't care. It's the most fun I've had with Star Trek in decades.
    The only issue I have is the talk of "money" with no real explanation behind it considering everyone has replicators and such still. But agreed it doesn't really cause any large issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    The only issue I have is the talk of "money" with no real explanation behind it considering everyone has replicators and such still. But agreed it doesn't really cause any large issues.
    It's always been a touchy thing, the economics of Star Trek.

    I've been greatly enjoying the series so far myself though, and I'm eager for more every week.
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    Default Re: Star Trek Picard

    Five bars of gold-pressed latinum says they never mention credits.
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    Ive always looked at the star trek economy as, the gubbamint provides the necessities, home, food, power, etc. Luxuries you have to earn for yourself. So there has to be some form of cash economy as well as the standard rations doled out to everyone automatically. Its not just ferengi gambling at quarks after all, plenty of humans go there too, so they have to get ahold of gold pressed latinum somehow.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Even with a post-scarcity society with nigh-magical technology underpinning it, it's not unreasonable that there'd be some form of currency as certain things - like land, for instance - aren't reproducible regardless. Presumably Picard owns his family vineyard, but how that works in terms of the Federation's economy is hazy at best. Though it can be reasonably assumed based on Trek dogma that Picard's not producing wine for the ultimate goal of acquiring further wealth but rather for the very pleasure of the work itself. Much like Ben Sisko's father presumably cooks Cajun food out of his own love for the craft but how his restaurant works in the broader Federation economy I have genuinely no idea.

    Although, from a canonical standpoint, the only power which has no stated monetary system is the Federation. Most of what we've seen thus far has been outside of that, which has generally been presented to be a more-or-less contemporary market economy.

    There's also the even more nebulous territory of Federation citizens possessing local currency, like on DS9. No idea how that works, or in the case of this show with Picard, what wealth is actually in his name.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Wow

    Spoiler
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    talk about a way to scrap a rather substantial portion of Voyager late seasons' character-based development.

    Icheb is tortured to death in the first 45 seconds of the episode. I am unsure if it works or not, but I feel it's a really cheap move.

    Also the Syndicate lady reminded me too much of Deanna Troi in her looks

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Star Trek Picard

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    Even with a post-scarcity society with nigh-magical technology underpinning it, it's not unreasonable that there'd be some form of currency as certain things - like land, for instance - aren't reproducible regardless. Presumably Picard owns his family vineyard, but how that works in terms of the Federation's economy is hazy at best. Though it can be reasonably assumed based on Trek dogma that Picard's not producing wine for the ultimate goal of acquiring further wealth but rather for the very pleasure of the work itself. Much like Ben Sisko's father presumably cooks Cajun food out of his own love for the craft but how his restaurant works in the broader Federation economy I have genuinely no idea.

    Although, from a canonical standpoint, the only power which has no stated monetary system is the Federation. Most of what we've seen thus far has been outside of that, which has generally been presented to be a more-or-less contemporary market economy.

    There's also the even more nebulous territory of Federation citizens possessing local currency, like on DS9. No idea how that works, or in the case of this show with Picard, what wealth is actually in his name.
    I generally head-canon away a lot of the "evolved human" elements of Trek. They're above racism, except they're perfectly happy to be prejudiced towards other species. They're above war, apart from the multiple wars we see them fight. They don't use money, except for all the times they do. There's an infinite supply of resources, except for when there isn't*. They don't have a standard jobs economy, but it's entirely possible to get drilled out of Starfleet. Etc. etc.

    It's easier to assume that they are like us unless otherwise noted. And even if we're told they are different, take that message with a grain of salt because there will be another episode along shortly to contradict it.

    The universe of Star Trek works best when you don't think about it too much. Hence why I'm much more forgiving when they bend the rules in favor of telling a good story.


    *A Matter of Perspective is a great example of a scientist needing funding and material from Starfleet and being terrified of not getting it. Also, he intends to SELL the research as a weapons system because it will get him more money

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodin View Post
    They don't have a standard jobs economy, but it's entirely possible to get drilled out of Starfleet. Etc. etc.
    That part makes sense though. The Federation still determines careers by merit, it's that you don't need to work to have that utopic standard of living that's the appeal. One clearly desires the status and responsibilities involved in more lucrative jobs, like being among the elite of Star Fleet.

    Julian Bashir's father for instance - in the episode where Julian was revealed to be genetically augmented - you discover that his father washed out of numerous careers due to a mix of lack of ability and some key personality issues. He's never going to fall below a pretty extravagant standard of living as a Federation citizen - even when he's sent to jail - but he's not particularly happy with his station in life either since everything is relative to your own context and he'll likely never find success in anything to his own satisfaction.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    That part makes sense though. The Federation still determines careers by merit, it's that you don't need to work to have that utopic standard of living that's the appeal. One clearly desires the status and responsibilities involved in more lucrative jobs, like being among the elite of Star Fleet.

    Julian Bashir's father for instance - in the episode where Julian was revealed to be genetically augmented - you discover that his father washed out of numerous careers due to a mix of lack of ability and some key personality issues. He's never going to fall below a pretty extravagant standard of living as a Federation citizen - even when he's sent to jail - but he's not particularly happy with his station in life either since everything is relative to your own context and he'll likely never find success in anything to his own satisfaction.
    Except his son.

    His son was the only way for him to create something that mattered. That had an impact on society.

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    Default Re: Star Trek Picard

    I wonder if they are going to try and link Nemesis and the final TNG episode together in this season.
    For example Data coming back and becoming a professor
    Picards degenerative neural disease which might be what gets hinted at in the second episode where the doctor hints that Picard has a very limited time left, which doesn't surprise Picard at all.
    The reason Picard doesn't want to drag the TNG crew in is because he knows he will need them for his final trip to fix the time hole.

    I have no idea if this is what they are actually building to but it would be interesting.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacewolf View Post
    I wonder if they are going to try and link Nemesis and the final TNG episode together in this season.
    For example Data coming back and becoming a professor
    Picards degenerative neural disease which might be what gets hinted at in the second episode where the doctor hints that Picard has a very limited time left, which doesn't surprise Picard at all.
    The reason Picard doesn't want to drag the TNG crew in is because he knows he will need them for his final trip to fix the time hole.

    I have no idea if this is what they are actually building to but it would be interesting.
    I think Picard is the only one who knows about the Time Paradox from All Good Things, because it was another test set up by Q. So it never happened. but it happened. As befits a paradox.

    Not to mention we've already seen that several people who were involved there have already left Starfleet.

    We also already know there's going to be a season 2, Stewart invited Whoopi Goldberg back to be Guinan for it and she accepted.

    As for economics, Starfleet itself, may not 'pay' its officers, but I'm willing to be the Federation has currency available, even if it's mainly for trade with other space-faring powers. Gotta remember that while Starfleet is part of the Federation, it doesn't represent the whole of the Federation.
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  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter Noventa View Post
    I think Picard is the only one who knows about the Time Paradox from All Good Things, because it was another test set up by Q. So it never happened. but it happened. As befits a paradox.
    Picard told his senior officers - that's what they're talking about during the card game before he shows up. Possibly, in the hope of averting any friendship problems between Worf and Riker, having seen how estranged they'd become in the Alternate Future.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    Picard told his senior officers - that's what they're talking about during the card game before he shows up. Possibly, in the hope of averting any friendship problems between Worf and Riker, having seen how estranged they'd become in the Alternate Future.
    Ah, you're right. It's been years since I've seen the episode after all. I still think that it's a...self-sealing paradox, because Q.

    Man, we never did find out what the heck a self-sealing stem bolt was, did we?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spacewolf View Post
    For example Data coming back and becoming a professor.
    Pretty unlikely. I remember reading that Brent Spiner only agreed to be in PIC on the condition that Data is absolutely never brought back; that he would only appear in flashbacks and dreams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JadedDM View Post
    Pretty unlikely. I remember reading that Brent Spiner only agreed to be in PIC on the condition that Data is absolutely never brought back; that he would only appear in flashbacks and dreams.
    IIRC, he loves the character but hates the idea or portraying an android that does not age while the actor visibly does, which hampers believability.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter Noventa View Post
    I think Picard is the only one who knows about the Time Paradox from All Good Things, because it was another test set up by Q. So it never happened. but it happened. As befits a paradox.

    Not to mention we've already seen that several people who were involved there have already left Starfleet.

    We also already know there's going to be a season 2, Stewart invited Whoopi Goldberg back to be Guinan for it and she accepted.

    As for economics, Starfleet itself, may not 'pay' its officers, but I'm willing to be the Federation has currency available, even if it's mainly for trade with other space-faring powers. Gotta remember that while Starfleet is part of the Federation, it doesn't represent the whole of the Federation.
    Yea did seem abit out there as an idea. Could have been interesting though.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter Noventa View Post
    Ah, you're right. It's been years since I've seen the episode after all. I still think that it's a...self-sealing paradox, because Q.

    Man, we never did find out what the heck a self-sealing stem bolt was, did we?
    A plot device

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter Noventa View Post
    I think Picard is the only one who knows about the Time Paradox from All Good Things, because it was another test set up by Q. So it never happened. but it happened. As befits a paradox.

    Not to mention we've already seen that several people who were involved there have already left Starfleet.

    We also already know there's going to be a season 2, Stewart invited Whoopi Goldberg back to be Guinan for it and she accepted.

    As for economics, Starfleet itself, may not 'pay' its officers, but I'm willing to be the Federation has currency available, even if it's mainly for trade with other space-faring powers. Gotta remember that while Starfleet is part of the Federation, it doesn't represent the whole of the Federation.
    I get the feeling that starfleet does in fact pay its officers and such. Again, ive always gotten the feeling that jobs are done for luxuries beyond the basic standard of living provided automatically. And there are plenty of scenes with starfleet members buying stuff or gambling or whatever. They have to get the money somehow. I kind of wish we could get an in depth official bit of real world building for the setting to cover this sort of thing rather than eternally glossing over it all, but that probably wont happen because as soon as you codify it, it gets torn apart by people analyzing it for all the flaws inherent in the system.
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  19. - Top - End - #79
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    Star Trek has always had a problem with writers (and producers and showrunners) that they don't just ''not get" Sci Fi, but even more so, "don't get" Star Trek. And that is if they don't outright hate Sci Fi or Star Trek.

    Most fictional shows keep the reality of our world, but Star Trek is one of the few that does not. A writer that is just randomly hired to write an episode forand any random action adventure show can write a classic ''Bank Heist" story easy enough. But it's not so easy with Star Trek...there is no money, no greed and no ''You must have money to live or you die".

    And you see this with tons of Star Trek episodes that simply make no sense in the set universe. All because the writer did not ''get it" or maybe just did not care.

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    The existence of money and how it works has always been contradictory in Star Trek. Indeed, in the very episode that we were discussing earlier, "Measure of a Man" it ends with Picard asking Louvois out to dinner and her answering with, "Are you buying?" in which he nods in agreement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    IIRC, he loves the character but hates the idea or portraying an android that does not age while the actor visibly does, which hampers believability.
    I know there'd be a ton of problems, but I do think it's a shame they can't give such actors a week of making a 'film bank', a couple of green screen chats/deaths etc..., partial plot expositions, some running through forests, generic corridors, a few Enterprise/Tardis bridge scenes would give something you could build a moderately complex plot with in ten years time. And if the bank is varied enough you probably should have (even with 70's technology) enough tricks to require a second viewing.

    I guess now we have the more disturbing deepfake option, and earlier you film was expensive. In addition to the whole morbid element of it, and the need to plan ahead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    IIRC, he loves the character but hates the idea or portraying an android that does not age while the actor visibly does, which hampers believability.
    I am not saying you are wrong, but I have heard many stories about Brett Ratner and his opinion of playing Data and since there are so many (and extremely contradictory) I am not sure it is possible to truly know Brett Ratner's opinion in a 2 degrees of separation or more knowledge sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    I am not saying you are wrong, but I have heard many stories about Brett Ratner and his opinion of playing Data and since there are so many (and extremely contradictory) I am not sure it is possible to truly know Brett Ratner's opinion in a 2 degrees of separation or more knowledge sense.
    Brent Spiner?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    Brent Spiner?
    Yes my brain farted reaching for a name and I pulled out the wrong one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    I am not saying you are wrong, but I have heard many stories about Brett Ratner and his opinion of playing Data and since there are so many (and extremely contradictory) I am not sure it is possible to truly know Brett Ratner's opinion in a 2 degrees of separation or more knowledge sense.
    Possibly. He has no objections to playing Dr. Soong, however, so other explanations (which in unaware of, so I can't speak too much for them) may not hold up as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Droid Tony View Post
    Star Trek has always had a problem with writers (and producers and showrunners) that they don't just ''not get" Sci Fi, but even more so, "don't get" Star Trek. And that is if they don't outright hate Sci Fi or Star Trek.

    Most fictional shows keep the reality of our world, but Star Trek is one of the few that does not. A writer that is just randomly hired to write an episode forand any random action adventure show can write a classic ''Bank Heist" story easy enough. But it's not so easy with Star Trek...there is no money, no greed and no ''You must have money to live or you die".

    And you see this with tons of Star Trek episodes that simply make no sense in the set universe. All because the writer did not ''get it" or maybe just did not care.
    Maybe we should focus on the rodenberry set of episodes. After all, he was the original visionary of the series and had, i think, a stranglehold on approval right up till a couple seasons into tng, were there any money related episodes of the original series or the first seasons of tng that would imply the federation, while providing all needed things for its people for free, also had a monetary system of some sort?

    Another thing to keep in mind that further muddies the waters are the comments that would seem anachronistic like the "You're buying" line. That could imply that yes going out to eat dinner as opposed to getting something from the replicator costs money, but this culture also has a fascination with the past, as evidenced by the love of holodeck adventures from robin hood, film noir, sherlock holmes, etc etc etc. So they as a culture would likely still be aware of such lines and their meaning even if they dont directly apply. Sort of like how if I said fit as a fiddle you would get the reference despite not owning a fiddle. You're buying could as easily be a joke as they wander back to the replicators or a notification that they see it as a date as a legit statement that picard needs to pay for the food somehow. So we should probably stick to episodes where something actually happens that implies money is being earned by the federation somehow rather than offhand comments that could just as easily be cultural references to the past that have stuck around for various reasons.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Maybe we should focus on the rodenberry set of episodes. After all, he was the original visionary of the series and had, i think, a stranglehold on approval right up till a couple seasons into tng, were there any money related episodes of the original series or the first seasons of tng that would imply the federation, while providing all needed things for its people for free, also had a monetary system of some sort?
    There are several other references of the same sort as the "You're buying" line. But that could very well be because Gene would not have been on set for every single episode nor review every single line in every script. I cannot remember any TOS or early TNG episodes where money was a central concept to the plot (except when it is portrayed as the root of all evil because the Ferengi crave it). Gene is also quoted by very indirectly by friends of other producers as having said that there is no money in the Federation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seppl View Post
    There are several other references of the same sort as the "You're buying" line. But that could very well be because Gene would not have been on set for every single episode nor review every single line in every script. I cannot remember any TOS or early TNG episodes where money was a central concept to the plot (except when it is portrayed as the root of all evil because the Ferengi crave it). Gene is also quoted by very indirectly by friends of other producers as having said that there is no money in the Federation.
    He was a bit more tyrannical in his executive decrees when he was removed from the directing role and became an executive producer after Season 2 ended.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Maybe we should focus on the rodenberry set of episodes. After all, he was the original visionary of the series and had, i think, a stranglehold on approval right up till a couple seasons into tng, were there any money related episodes of the original series or the first seasons of tng that would imply the federation, while providing all needed things for its people for free, also had a monetary system of some sort?
    You see this is where it gets complicated. What is Roddenberry vision when he has so many visions throughout the years? The Cage Pilot which was unreleased to 1986 is very different than The Original Series, NBC did not like it and thus they reworked Star Trek with new Characters (for example no Kirk), recasting, etc.

    Is it Roddenberry vision when he did not direct the episodes? After all film and tv are collaborative by their very nature.

    And Roddenberry stepped back in Season 3 due to the budget cuts and new time slot (due to lower ratings) he was angry for he blamed NBC for almost killing the show in Season 2.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Maybe we should focus on the rodenberry set of episodes. After all, he was the original visionary of the series and had, i think, a stranglehold on approval right up till a couple seasons into tng, were there any money related episodes of the original series or the first seasons of tng that would imply the federation, while providing all needed things for its people for free, also had a monetary system of some sort?
    In addition to the TOS examples of credit use , in I, Mudd, Kirk accused Mudd of not paying royalties (to the Vulcans, IIRC) on technology he was selling.
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