Star Trek Picard

[Hopeless]

Oh god they are aren't they!

Spoiler

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Nothing is clearly sacred to them!

[Ramza00]

Question for people who play video games, from a person who mostly stopped from 05 to 10ish?

Spoiler: Aka other franchises outside Picard and Star Trek

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Explain to me how the Mass Effect reapers are inherently different than Lovecraftian Old Gods? They are mainly synthetic, they cull, and try to digitize the things they cull like this is the DC Animated universe version of Brainiac?

From the outside the Reapers merely look like Old Gods with some aesthetics changed.

[Yora]

They are, except that they aren't really aesthetically different either.

[Ramza00]

They are, except that they aren't really aesthetically different either.

On that subject

Spoiler: Story Telling Devices and how it modifies the subjective user experience of the reader.

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To my understanding Mass Effect and much of Lovecraft is often info dropping things via Diaries, Flashbacks, etc aka you are removed from the experience and this removal from the experiences triggers feelings of horror, lack of control, and loss of agency.

Dracula the Bram Stoker Novel is creepy precisely because it is a series of diary entries, letters, etc. People are not affecting the experience first hand and thus they felt swept into a larger greater conflict beyond that of human agency. The monsters in said stories are in many ways like sublime weather phenomena. Sure the storyteller may survive, but person X or Y that is important to the storyteller may not survive and we the reader feel a lack of control for the subjective experience is not first hand but somehow removed. We are trapped in the experience and thus we must watch in awe while something bigger than us like a volcano suddenly errupts and we see the power of nature's wrath.

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Picard has lots of this, it is always doing flashbacks to events of 14 years ago or whenever the F8 android and his co-conspirators attacked Mars. Likewise we the audience are trying to figure out what Dahj and Soji Asha know via things like Dreams, and Guided Meditation once again experiences we as the audience and the Protagonist Picard has little control.

Furthermore there are knowledges sources external to Picard such as Computer Records (the heuristic scene in Episode 2), or the Borg Cube, and so on where the experience is alien, non personal, technical and it similar to a Victorian novel of finding a long lost journal.

Even the characters themselves are guarded with secret pasts they do not want to share, much like how in such novels the protagonist may have a guide but the guide themselves is a mystery to the protagonist, until they eat after something scary and then they share backstories next to a fire.

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All of this is me saying that Picard is a very different Star Trek experience than many previous seasons. There is very little action, very little negotiation and merging of two world views, instead it is the opposite wondering if we can truly understand one another.

Of course there are exceptions to all of this and the show still feels like Star Trek in some things.

[Hunter Noventa]

Spoiler

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*insert image of history channel aliens guy here, but instead of aliens it says 'Iconians'*

That's who I'm betting on, for being the mysterious anti-synth civilization from 200,000 years ago.

[Cikomyr2]

Spoiler

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*insert image of history channel aliens guy here, but instead of aliens it says 'Iconians'*

That's who I'm betting on, for being the mysterious anti-synth civilization from 200,000 years ago.

That would be cool.

I mean, why the **** not guys? Expand the lore of the universe. Star Trek has always had a suspicious absence of any AI prior to Discovery. Data was extremely self contained. The Doctor was too. The M5 Supercomputer started killing everyone.

Theres gotta be a reason why there was no more ai in Starfleet. Control and this plot line explains it. It wasn't even a plot hole, merely a plot thread to be exploited.

[Peelee]

That would be cool.

I mean, why the **** not guys? Expand the lore of the universe. Star Trek has always had a suspicious absence of any AI prior to Discovery.

Enterprise had the deep-space repair station that, while not explicitly AI, was incredibly advanced.

[Hunter Noventa]

That would be cool.

I mean, why the **** not guys? Expand the lore of the universe. Star Trek has always had a suspicious absence of any AI prior to Discovery. Data was extremely self contained. The Doctor was too. The M5 Supercomputer started killing everyone.

Theres gotta be a reason why there was no more ai in Starfleet. Control and this plot line explains it. It wasn't even a plot hole, merely a plot thread to be exploited.

They got expanded on in STO, but not in this direction.

But you're right about the AI in general. Or Sapient AI at least, as no one is going to argue that the ship computer or the holodeck isn't an AI.

[Rodin]

They got expanded on in STO, but not in this direction.

But you're right about the AI in general. Or Sapient AI at least, as no one is going to argue that the ship computer or the holodeck isn't an AI.

That's one of the things that bothered me a bit on my re-watch of TNG. Data is supposed to be a totally unique artificial sentience, yet in one episode the ship's computer creates an artificial sentience with the same level of intelligence as Data along with a full emotional range. Granted it took a much larger processor to do it, but that's still sentient machine life created effortlessly once someone told a big enough computer to do it. Said computer then proceeds to have a baby a few years later, which flies off into space never to be mentioned again. It turns Data from a unique and beautiful creation into a success in miniaturization.

[Yora]

Something that I started to really realize while doing in depth examinations of every single Deep Space Nine episode last years was that Star Trek never seemed to have had any actual intentions to create a consistent universe and explore the implications and interactions between the various elements they invented. The focus has always been on telling singular stories that feel dramatic within their own context. Consistency and believablity has never been a concern. It just has to feel appropriately dramatic in the moment while watching.

I wouldn't go so far to say "it's not a bug, it's a feature", but inconsistency. lack of continuity, and contradiction was just never something that was seen as a problem or something worth making efforts to avoid. Which is why so many seemingly hugely important things fly off into space, and why the Prime Directive means whatever a writer wants it to mean to make a dramatic story.

Continuity and consistency is something only some viewers are trying to find, but if it exists at all it's purely by chance and not the result of any great plan.

[Ramza00]

Something that I started to really realize while doing in depth examinations of every single Deep Space Nine episode last years was that Star Trek never seemed to have had any actual intentions to create a consistent universe and explore the implications and interactions between the various elements they invented. The focus has always been on telling singular stories that feel dramatic within their own context. Consistency and believablity has never been a concern. It just has to feel appropriately dramatic in the moment while watching.

I wouldn't go so far to say "it's not a bug, it's a feature", but inconsistency. lack of continuity, and contradiction was just never something that was seen as a problem or something worth making efforts to avoid. Which is why so many seemingly hugely important things fly off into space, and why the Prime Directive means whatever a writer wants it to mean to make a dramatic story.

Continuity and consistency is something only some viewers are trying to find, but if it exists at all it's purely by chance and not the result of any great plan.

*Nods* Star Trek wanted to explore "spaces" as in telling stories that are liminal, and between two spaces. You entered a new space, a space that is a boundary between two other spaces and you learn how it is alike and different from what is familiar. Then you repeat it again and again. There is a reason why until DS9 you are exploring outside / on the edge of the Federation and you experience all these alien cultures.

Space the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Enterprise. Its five-year mission: to explore strange new worlds. To seek out new life and new civilizations. To boldly go where no man has gone before!

And the whole metaphor of the ship, the enterprise ship, is also a similar space, that is not a constant thing but a thing that is unmoored to other spaces and thus is a thing onto itself.

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In DS9 we start to explore "Time" aka how Spaces interact with other Spaces for longer periods and how they change in response to these interactions. We see how Bajor changes due to its relationship with the Cardassians and being on the edge of Federation Space. Will it join the Federation? Then the space is violated / expanded once again with the Wormhole to the Gamma Quadrant being open. And then later on after the Season 3 Finale we have a rivalry with the Dominion so on and so on. The space is constantly changing, the place is changing, and this is the unfolding of time.

Compare and contrast how DS9 tells stories about relationships changing over time, vs time travel episodes in TOS, TNG, DS9, etc. Time Travel episodes treat past places as a space moored in a specific moment in space and time. It is different than Major Kira explaining she is the same person yet a different person than her previous self, the terrorist, so on and so on.

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Voyager is a blend of DS9 and TNG. By constantly entering new space each season you get new variety of places like TOS or TNG, but you also allow the crew to change with stories such as Seven becoming an individual, the Doctor becoming an individual, Tom and B'elanna learning how to trust, date, get married, pregnancy, etc.

But 9/11 changed how people saw spaces and we became far more skeptical of new spaces after this traumatic world event. (Though it felt more traumatic in the US.) Thus Enterprise, Discovery, and the Reboot movies have a different style than TNG, DS9, and Voy.

[Cikomyr2]

That's one of the things that bothered me a bit on my re-watch of TNG. Data is supposed to be a totally unique artificial sentience, yet in one episode the ship's computer creates an artificial sentience with the same level of intelligence as Data along with a full emotional range. Granted it took a much larger processor to do it, but that's still sentient machine life created effortlessly once someone told a big enough computer to do it. Said computer then proceeds to have a baby a few years later, which flies off into space never to be mentioned again. It turns Data from a unique and beautiful creation into a success in miniaturization.

Of Mother of Spock.

Man. I always wondered why Starfleet never, ever did anything to help Moriarty.

I guess we know ****ing why

Wow guys we wrapped up one of the saddest plot thread of TNG

[Peelee]

So this is a remarkably late comment, but I'm watching Mudd's Women at the moment, and one of the offenses in his police record is "Purchase of Space Vessel with Counterfeit Currency." Just to throw a bit more of a kink into "is there money in the Federation" thing. It seems any episode with ol' Harcourt can't resist having some sort of financial crime tossed in there.

[Ramza00]

New episode, it is Weird, I love it?

[gallardoiq]

noticed that only those who expected action and received a philosophical film speak negatively about this series...

[Kantaki]

So this is a remarkably late comment, but I'm watching Mudd's Women at the moment, and one of the offenses in his police record is "Purchase of Space Vessel with Counterfeit Currency." Just to throw a bit more of a kink into "is there money in the Federation" thing. It seems any episode with ol' Harcourt can't resist having some sort of financial crime tossed in there.

Might've been alien currency.
Did they state who he got the ship from?

[Peelee]

noticed that only those who expected action and received a philosophical film speak negatively about this series...

Which is a weird thing to expect for a Star Trek series.

Might've been alien currency.
Did they state who he got the ship from?

No, but I got the implication it was a Federation charge, much like how in his second episode Kirk accuses him of not paying the Vulcans royalties.

[Xyril]

Which is a weird thing to expect for a Star Trek series.

I wonder if the complaints mostly come from people who were brought into the fandom by the reboot movies?

I thought the reboot movies were pretty fun action movies that managed to capture the sense of adventure of the original series while even sneaking in some of the more idealistic themes, but I can absolutely see a lot of new fans who liked those movies being disappointed with the pace of Picard or even TNG.

[Ramza00]

Which is a weird thing to expect for a Star Trek series.

Seriously take the most recent episode of Picard for an example. It references a character from the 1817 story The Sandman (Coppelius which in Picard is the name of a place.) This story being one of the first stories about robots / dolls.

And the same episode show title is Et in Arcadia Ego, Part 1. Et in Arcadia Ego being a baroque painting in the 1600s (Link to wikipedia below). Two different versions by the same artist, then another artist doing their own version, and then another artist making it into a scultpure. Et in Arcadia ego is also known as Les bergers d'Arcadie or The Arcadian Shepherds, but the actual title trans literally means Even in Arcadia, there am I. Arcadia being an idyllic place in Greece, a place for shepherds away from the sea. But sometimes Arcadia also means an Eden paradise in Greek thought as a metaphor of a higher existence. Well even in Arcadia death / I / ego exists with the Shepherds being next to a tomb of someone else that came prior.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Et_in_Arcadia_ego

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Picard like Star Trek before this is exploring these themes and people are disappointed that it does not have enough action scenes?

I wonder if the complaints mostly come from people who were brought into the fandom by the reboot movies?

I thought the reboot movies were pretty fun action movies that managed to capture the sense of adventure of the original series while even sneaking in some of the more idealistic themes, but I can absolutely see a lot of new fans who liked those movies being disappointed with the pace of Picard or even TNG.

I guess, it is due to the Reboot movies that people are disappointed. *Shrugs*

I adored the first of the 3 reboot movies (2009), but at the same time Star Trek is also supposed to have a core that challenges your idea of how the world is organized (to explore new worlds), even if part of the show is still Flash Gordon at the same time. These two energies constantly colliding with one another.

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One last thought since I am thinking Reboot. JJ Abrams the director doing "Citizen, what is your name? [Young Kirk :] My name is James Tiberius Kirk!" in the desert works so much better in 09 in the Star Trek Reboot than 19 with Rey Skywalker in the Star Wars movies as the conclusion of the saga.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeRghYqi090

[Traab]

Too be fair, star trek had a LOT of action alongside the philosophical themes. Virtually every episode had some action related to said theme being explored. In fact, I would go so far as to claim that tng had far more episodes that had combat in some form than didnt have any at all. Voyager had tons of combat, with a few moral and ethical dilemmas tossed in, ds9 had plenty of moral conundrums but they were in relation to a freaking WAR in which most of the cast was taking part. So you cant claim star trek is some cerebral think piece of a setting where combat is rare as combat is a significant portion of it across all settings.

[Ramza00]

Too be fair, star trek had a LOT of action alongside the philosophical themes. Virtually every episode had some action related to said theme being explored. In fact, I would go so far as to claim that tng had far more episodes that had combat in some form than didnt have any at all. Voyager had tons of combat, with a few moral and ethical dilemmas tossed in, ds9 had plenty of moral conundrums but they were in relation to a freaking WAR in which most of the cast was taking part. So you cant claim star trek is some cerebral think piece of a setting where combat is rare as combat is a significant portion of it across all settings.

Yept. I recommend movies with mikey part 1 video about Star Trek which explores this subject with the original series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA7OTFp_kDI

That video came out 30 days ago and there is going to be a future video. But yeah the quick summary of a 27 minute video is Star Trek is a collaboration piece mixing multiple ideas, and multiple talents and it does not belong to a specific person like Gene Roddenberry. The original pilot "the cage" which did not air till the 1980s was a very different show. No Kirk, Pike as a Captain, a different first officer (Spock was present but not FO). Well that idea was more cerebral but it was boring so the studios gave them money to do a 2nd pilot and try again.

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So yeah there was always some action / Flash Gordon / Captain Proton inside the original star trek, but also TNG, DS9, and Voyager. Just like life itself is a mixture of things and it is not just one energy.

[Peelee]

The original pilot "the cage" which did not air till the 1980s was a very different show. No Kirk, Pike as a Captain, a different first officer (Spock was present but not FO)

I actually don't recall Spock ever being called First Officer at all. I know in The Cage the FO was a woman (which surprised me, and I'm a bit surprised they didn't stick with that), and I looked into it a little - Spock actually refers to himself as Second Officer in a log entry:

Captain's Log, stardate 1673.1. Entry made by Second Officer Spock. Captain Kirk retains command of this vessel, but his force of will rapidly fading. Condition of landing party critical. Transporter unit still under repair.

And Spock is unmistakably the Science Officer, which I assume is a separate posting that he can occupy simultaneously. When Kirk is absent, Spock is the one to take command over others, though, which would indicate First Officer. So my best guess is they consider the Captain to be "First" Officer, and the normal rank of First Officer is reclassified as Second Officer? Either that or Spock gets promoted offscreen with a different FO before the episode with Spock's log entry as acting captain.

[hamishspence]

It isn't just Spock - Data's had description issues as well:

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Second_officer

A certain amount of confusion when it comes to "second officer" and "second in command" seems to be an occasional thing.

I actually don't recall Spock ever being called First Officer at all.

TOS: The Enterprise Incident:

TAL: Who is that beside you?
KIRK: My first officer, Commander Spock.

[Ramza00]

It isn't just Spock - Data's had description issues as well:

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Second_officer

A certain amount of confusion when it comes to "second officer" and "second in command" seems to be an occasional thing.

All I want to know is Nog, Wesley, or Harry higher on their respective commands on their specific ships. Who outranks the other not in a literal rank sense but instead which ship has a larger chain of command.

[Peelee]

TOS: The Enterprise Incident:

TAL: Who is that beside you?
KIRK: My first officer, Commander Spock.

Would you believe I had that episode on just post night? Shame on myself, I say!

[Rodin]

I actually don't recall Spock ever being called First Officer at all. I know in The Cage the FO was a woman (which surprised me, and I'm a bit surprised they didn't stick with that), and I looked into it a little - Spock actually refers to himself as Second Officer in a log entry: And Spock is unmistakably the Science Officer, which I assume is a separate posting that he can occupy simultaneously. When Kirk is absent, Spock is the one to take command over others, though, which would indicate First Officer. So my best guess is they consider the Captain to be "First" Officer, and the normal rank of First Officer is reclassified as Second Officer? Either that or Spock gets promoted offscreen with a different FO before the episode with Spock's log entry as acting captain.

IIRC, the original pilot was supposed to have Majel Barrett as the first officer. Spock was the science officer, but he wasn't a Vulcan - he was a sort of demon looking thing with red skin and horns.

The executives blanched at the idea of having a devil as a major character because they knew it would lose them the religious crowd. They were even more horrified at the idea of a woman in a command role, which would lose them EVERYBODY.

So Spock got a promotion and a re-design, and it would take over 30 years before we saw a female character in a command role (outside of one-shot guest stars).

[Yora]

But they did a full episode with Spock looking like Spock with Number One as his superior.

[Xyril]

But they did a full episode with Spock looking like Spock with Number One as his superior.

If you're referring to "The Cage," that was one of those not-really-canon pilots that was never officially released in its form. There was a lot that they wanted changed before it went to series, something that happens in other shows. For some series, the pilot is rewritten or reshot to reflect the changes that the network wanted--I can't think of any off hand, but I remember finding out a few of my favorite shows basically redid the original pilot faithfully, but with one character changed and that actor replaced. Others require such a radical shift that the original pilot never really makes it into the series, existing as a largely forgotten rough draft. It seems like "The Cage" started with way, with it's different leading man and female first officer, but the footage was used to create "The Menagerie," an episode which made those events (in some form) canon.

To reconcile the differences, they explained that Captain Pike commanded the Enterprise in the past (one or two "five year missions" ago) and that Spock--earlier in his career--had a lower rank at the time and thus naturally wouldn't be the First Officer. "The Menagerie" basically retold that episode as an extended flashback, which is why Number One was gone.

As for why Spock looked like Spock, I would guess that "The Cage" as filmed that time around was in fact one of several revisions of an original pilot, or that Spock-as-Hellboy never made of past a sketch or maybe a makeup demonstration and into a full-length pilot.

[Bartmanhomer]

I think Picard alignment is Lawful Good or maybe Neutral Good. He seems to follow the rules and regulations of the Enterprise.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

If you're referring to "The Cage," that was one of those not-really-canon pilots that was never officially released in its form. There was a lot that they wanted changed before it went to series, something that happens in other shows. For some series, the pilot is rewritten or reshot to reflect the changes that the network wanted--I can't think of any off hand, but I remember finding out a few of my favorite shows basically redid the original pilot faithfully, but with one character changed and that actor replaced. Others require such a radical shift that the original pilot never really makes it into the series, existing as a largely forgotten rough draft. It seems like "The Cage" started with way, with it's different leading man and female first officer, but the footage was used to create "The Menagerie," an episode which made those events (in some form) canon.

To reconcile the differences, they explained that Captain Pike commanded the Enterprise in the past (one or two "five year missions" ago) and that Spock--earlier in his career--had a lower rank at the time and thus naturally wouldn't be the First Officer. "The Menagerie" basically retold that episode as an extended flashback, which is why Number One was gone.

As for why Spock looked like Spock, I would guess that "The Cage" as filmed that time around was in fact one of several revisions of an original pilot, or that Spock-as-Hellboy never made of past a sketch or maybe a makeup demonstration and into a full-length pilot.

It wasn't that Spock was red with horns, it was just that he had pointy ears and swept-up eyebrows. That was apparently devilish enough! Goodness knows what they'd have made of his Mirror, Mirror episode goatee!
Another reason for losing Number One was apparently that - as Gene's sort-of-secret girl-friend (they were having an affair, IIRC) - the studio was reluctant to give Majel Barret such a prominent part as a lead cast member.

BTW, if you watch the whole of The Cage, you'll see that Vulcans hadn't been written as the logical species they became (it was Number One who did all the logical thinking). Nimoy does some crazy emoting as Spock in that episode, by the standards of regular Spock's behaviour.