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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oerlaf View Post
    However, if one has no other choice left and has the power to fix it, why not?
    I think the issue here is that they do have another choice left - they can get on with their own life and not reconcile with Inkyrius.
    If Dr.Zero is correct they shouldn't want to reconcile.

    The children complicate things but if Vaarsuvius has trusted Inkyrius to mind them for years then they have already conceeded that Inkyrius is a suitable parent and so no action is needed on that front.

    On the other hand if Inkyrius is not an abusive spouse and Vaarsuvius wants to reconcile they should likely leave it until after the world is saved (or destroyed) and then devote the time that such would need, a sending should likely be to flee the plane and warn the elven authorities to evacuate as many people as possible - and it likely should not go to Inkyrius.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oerlaf View Post
    It's not that easy. It takes a DC 25 Sense Motive check to discern that Inky behaved under the influence of an enchantment spell
    Irrelevant. Inky doesn't need to know they were enchanted, they just have to not be under the effect of the spell anymore. "Wait, why am I back with spouse, after all they did? What in the nine hells was I thinking?! Divorce!"

    Ignoring the large bonuses Inky would likely get on that Sense Motive check, of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oerlaf View Post
    I acknowledge that this kind of mind control is an evil act. However, if one has no other choice left and has the power to fix it, why not?
    Because we've already had one Tarquin in the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    Actually I didn't shove away any actual event, mind you.
    It's the interpretation that, somehow, I'm supposed to give to those events that clearly clashes with the interpretation I'd give it in real life.
    If you have problem with it, imagine V being not a genderless fantasy-powerful-wizard, but a female successful surgeon, who needs to go to operate someone; or a very successful policewoman expert in terrorism, who needs to go to talk about hostages. Shouting and clenching tightly her fists in rage and frustation at the the start, then giving up at the end. And leave Ink's speeches exactly as they are. If you cannot see the psychological manipulative attitude, fine, because that's the most clear explanation I can give.
    That's a shame, because that that explanation is really biased and poor.

    Did the surgeon agree to do plastic surgery for some cartel leaders in order to gain control over a paramilitary? Because V sold their soul for power. That's not just "V is a wizard, so compare that to other impressive jobs." Any real-world analog you want to bring out for that has to be equally weighty and, well, terrifying. Your examples are clearly not. For example, you say V is doing the equivalent of a police officer clenching a fist, when it's more the equivalent of that officer pointing their gun at their own family. You're stacking the deck against Inky and then saying "see? They're terrible at cards!"
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-01-19 at 09:43 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Your bread looks like a rotary phone.
    This right here, is some prime quality culinary critique.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    "You were an arrogant fool. Uninterested to how many people I could help with those powers. I will save the world then kick your ass."
    I wish this Forum had a "thanks" or "like" button.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Pilgrim View Post
    I wish this Forum had a "thanks" or "like" button.
    It's too bad he was serious - if you read it as a joke it's pretty funny. I'm guessing it's roughly what Belkar would send if he was V.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Holy crap. "I'd just mind control my spouse into taking me back, since in my judgment I'm sufficiently remorseful for what I previously did that they should forgive me" manages to be even worse than Dr. Zero's "shove away the actual events of the comic and impose something else in their place" approach.
    This is a comment legitimately worth a like, and pretty much my response when I opened this thread a few minutes ago.
    Spoiler: Read this if I've posted a theory in the post above
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    "A sufficiently big wedge of cheese is indistinguishable from an aircraft."

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    It's too bad he was serious - if you read it as a joke it's pretty funny. I'm guessing it's roughly what Belkar would send if he was V.
    I dunno, I'm not sure Belkar is quite at the point of wanting to express a desire to help a lot of people at (unknown at the time) cost to himself

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    I dunno, I'm not sure Belkar is quite at the point of wanting to express a desire to help a lot of people at (unknown at the time) cost to himself
    That's a good point, although "turning into V" would certainly qualify as character development for him.

    On an unrelated note, I can't believe anyone is considering bringing up Mindrape as a possibility to be used for anything. There's a reason that spell's in the Book of Vile Darkness, people. There are very, very few discussions improved by bringing spells like that into the mix.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    How many times can my free soul be sold
    while we still can meet in our bed?
    The answer, my mate, is fewer than sixteen
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    On an unrelated note, I can't believe anyone is considering bringing up Mindrape as a possibility to be used for anything. There's a reason that spell's in the Book of Vile Darkness, people. There are very, very few discussions improved by bringing spells like that into the mix.
    You've been here for almost 13 years and you're surprised at this? I've learned to accept stuff like it at this point and I've only been here for less than half a year.
    Spoiler: Read this if I've posted a theory in the post above
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    "A sufficiently big wedge of cheese is indistinguishable from an aircraft."

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    Don't know much about courtesy
    so I've given up custody
    In spite of what's in the book
    We aren't monsters, you're a cook

    But I do know that I love you
    And I know that if you love me, too
    What a wonderful world this would be
    Quote Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien, 1955
    I thought Tom Bombadil dreadful — but worse still was the announcer's preliminary remarks that Goldberry was his daughter (!), and that Willowman was an ally of Mordor (!!).

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    "You were an arrogant fool. Uninterested to how many people I could help with those powers. I will save the world then kick your ass."
    This does, by the way, not sound like something a victim of abuse would say.

    Anyone who does talk like this and thinks they are in an abusive relationship ... is likely to actually be the abuser.


    Therefore I do not think Vaarsuvius would say something like this. Vaarsuvius has been terribly inconsiderate a number of times, but V's action do not show a pattern typical of abuse.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Even more heinously, the programmed amnesia spell does more or less the exact same thing but isn't flagged evil.

    But then I think the only really ethical way to use enchantment magic in this situation would begin and end at getting them to listen to and let you make your case without it, then accept whatever the decision may be. Even that probably goes a bit too far though, I think.
    Sometimes I wonder if any thought at all was put into the decisions of which spells got alignment descriptors. I'm personally not a fan of the alignment spell descriptors (I'd rather decide which spells are evil to cast based on what they do and how they are used), but given that they are in the game, Programmed Amnesia definitely deserves the Evil tag.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Holy crap. "I'd just mind control my spouse into taking me back, since in my judgment I'm sufficiently remorseful for what I previously did that they should forgive me" manages to be even worse than Dr. Zero's "shove away the actual events of the comic and impose something else in their place" approach.
    Exactly what I was thinking.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    Actually I didn't shove away any actual event, mind you.
    It's the interpretation that, somehow, I'm supposed to give to those events that clearly clashes with the interpretation I'd give it in real life.
    If you have problem with it, imagine V being not a genderless fantasy-powerful-wizard, but a female successful surgeon, who needs to go to operate someone; or a very successful policewoman expert in terrorism, who needs to go to talk about hostages. Shouting and clenching tightly her fists in rage and frustation at the the start, then giving up at the end. And leave Ink's speeches exactly as they are. If you cannot see the psychological manipulative attitude, fine, because that's the most clear explanation I can give.

    Said that, I don't want another "slaves must stay slave, if fighting for freedom means hurting other people", "gods don't consider their followers like cattle, because they are not literally cattle" and so on endless debate, so I'll stop to derail the thread and won't reply anymore.
    So, if V and Inky were in completely different situations and did completely different things, and Inky was abusive, then Inky would be abusive and V would be in the right? Is that really your argument?

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    You've been here for almost 13 years and you're surprised at this? I've learned to accept stuff like it at this point and I've only been here for less than half a year.
    Yeah, I'm not actually surprised (although most of the people whom I'd expect to have brought up this sort of thing in the past don't seem to be around anymore). Usually when I say "I can't believe it," I mean "I can totally believe it, but I really wish I couldn't."

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    I owe The Pilgrim 20 quatloos if the Sphinx Pox turns out not to have a further story role beyond "passing commentary" - and vice versa.
    So.

    Who won?
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Genuinely unsure. Under my understanding of “passing commentary,” I would say that I won, because I consider “explicit, on-panel resolution” a step up from that. (My original reasoning at the time, after all, was “this is too big of a deal to not get resolved or otherwise dealt with.”) However, at least one other person at the time seemed to think that The Pilgrim won, and I admit that the phrasing was ambiguous. Perhaps we should have had a more rigorously defined bet.
    Last edited by Emanick; 2020-01-20 at 03:45 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    What does the sphinx pox have to do with V's relationship to Inkyrius other than having appeared in the same comic as V casting a sending spell?

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    What does the sphinx pox have to do with V's relationship to Inkyrius other than having appeared in the same comic as V casting a sending spell?
    Dunno. Maybe Inky is part Sphinx?

    You could see why a half-Sphinx and a half-camel might fall for one another.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    It doesn't matters who wins or loses, as long as everybody involved had fun.

    Last edited by The Pilgrim; 2020-01-20 at 10:38 AM.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    "You were an arrogant fool. Uninterested to how many people I could help with those powers. I will save the world then kick your ass."
    Laughed out loud, I did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    Because, come on, Ink's behaviour is clearly an example of guilty feeling manipulation. And egocentrism, of course.
    Interesting take on that conversation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    If you have problem with it, imagine V being not a genderless fantasy-powerful-wizard, but a female successful surgeon, who needs to go to operate someone; or a very successful policewoman expert in terrorism, who needs to go to talk about hostages. Shouting and clenching tightly her fists in rage and frustation at the the start, then giving up at the end. And leave Ink's speeches exactly as they are. If you cannot see the psychological manipulative attitude, fine, because that's the most clear explanation I can give.
    I have some RL observations that I cannot share, so I'll say again: interesting take.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vinyadan View Post
    Don't know much about courtesy
    so I've given up custody
    In spite of what's in the book
    We aren't monsters, you're a cook

    But I do know that I love you
    And I know that if you love me, too
    What a wonderful world this would be
    Nicely played.

    Spoiler: What was actually in V's sending spell
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    Two pepperoni, mushroom, and onion large pizzas; thin crust. One large vegetarian special, original crust. Delivery address is Mechane, port cabin. Sunflower seeds; large bag.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-01-21 at 05:10 PM.
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  20. - Top - End - #50
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    You'll leave our adopted progeny into my custody, or else I'll destroy you and everything related to you by blood! This is the last warning!

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    Well, looks like, thanks to Julia, this won't be a problem in the near future.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    Only if she's right about being able to make it work without the blood oath. Making a more powerful version of a spell while simultaneously lowering its spell level strikes me as a tad ambitious for an apprentice wizard.

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    Only if she's right about being able to make it work without the blood oath. Making a more powerful version of a spell while simultaneously lowering its spell level strikes me as a tad ambitious for an apprentice wizard.
    The blood oath and Familicide both indicate that in TOotS universe, "related" is significant for spell-targetting.

    I might believe she can lower the spell level by adding a "closely related" requirement.

    Note that she's not all that apprentice-like, she was casting level 2 spells a year ago, and is casting what may well be a level 3 here, apprentice wizards cast cantrips (those are supposed to be spells invented for apprentices to study while they learn how to cast after all). She's presumably a fairly advanced student.
    Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2020-02-26 at 12:52 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Fish's Avatar

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    Default Re: Suppose Vaarsuvius' 25-word Sending was to Inkyrius. What would it be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That's a shame, because that that explanation is really biased and poor.
    Agreed 1000%.

    “What if V were a Lawful Good paladin who was trying to save a basket of kittens from a burning kitten factory? Huh? What then?”

    As my dad used to say, “If we had some bacon, we could have some bacon and eggs, if we had some eggs.”

    What V actually was at that moment was an arrogant True Neutral wizard, wracked by guilt and failure, invested with terrifying power, desperate with fear and the desire not to waste the resources they had been lent temporarily from an ill-advised deal with literal devils. On their way to attempt to destroy the unthinkably powerful undead sorcerer who had already killed their leader and broken their party. Alone. With the same kind of arcane power that had failed before, just more of it. Because V cannot admit to being wrong.

    I think that’s a much more accurate picture:

    Not a good-hearted cop on the way to give a talk on crosswalk safety to orphans. Not a prominent surgeon be route to life-saving vascular surgery for the president of the Global Happy Puppy Club.
    Last edited by Fish; 2020-02-26 at 03:58 PM.

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