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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    OGDojo's Avatar

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    Question Optimizing a class using this build

    so i built a race called a Ruhk (crow type race that has a high intelligence, built using the Advanced race guide from Pathfinder) here are its stats

    Ruhk:
    Str +2
    Dex +2
    Con +2
    Int +8

    and with this i started looking for feats that will let me add my int modifier to my AC and came across a book called "Egyptian Adventures Hamunatra: Book 1: Book of Days" with a feat called "Ptah's Cunning"
    and a feat called "Tufnut's Endurance"

    Ptah's cunning adds your intelligence modifier to your AC as a dodge bonus
    Tufnut's Endurance adds your Con modifier as natural armor

    so i thought... how far can i take this?? so i went through some LA+1 templates and found 5 races that give bonuses to con, int, and Cha, and here they are

    Chaosborne
    Dunesage
    Savant
    Advanced
    Inviegler

    and together they give these stat bonuses
    Str +0
    Dex -6
    Con +14
    Wis -2
    Int +34
    Cha +16

    you also get a Miriad of different abilities on top of these (you should go check it out cuz some of them are pretty cool.)

    so i was wondering... what kind of bad ass characters can you make out of these?? i wanna hear suggestions to make it better.

    if your going to build a full character:
    please make it readable (either an online character sheet at ECL 20 or a orderly text typed out below will work)
    please use all of the templates above (i have 5 of them so you can still prestige class if you want to)
    the two feats listed above, you must have an Int and Con of 11 to take AND you must have a BAB of +1

    if you have suggestions for classes please write the class and tell me why you think it would work well using these stats, and if you have any feat suggestions please add why you think they should be used.
    Check me out on TikTok @OGDojo also check out my Youtube @ObscureGamingDojo
    All Martial Arts Begin with Imitation.
    Factotums are the weakest yet most powerful class, if built properly

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    Kaiwen's Avatar

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    Default Re: Optimizing a class using this build

    What's the rule that lets you be Ruhk and five other races all at once? Anyways, races are value positive, so of course stacking races will get you insane benefits. Even if a race is only net +1 (and most are +2), adding 5 more is enough for +6 total stats, more than any printed Pathfinder race.

    Anyways, characters you could make are literally anything that doesn't use dex. There is no character in existence that would say no to +7 fort save and 100+ skill points. If you're talking about things that could capitalize on the stat modifiers, Path of War (and Tome of Battle if you allow 3.5 content) has some effects that depend on skill checks, and Snake Style lets you block attacks as an immediate action with a Sense Motive check. And then there's the obvious Wizard/Sorcerer/Paladin/Psion/Warder/literally anything with int or cha as a casting/manifesting/initiating stat.

    Edit: By race, did you mean template? If so, I don't know the details of most of the names you listed and I'm too sleepy to look them up, but most templates don't have listed ways to acquire them (like the Advanced template), so you'd need to ask your DM and get their permission to trade 5 class levels for +30 int or what the heck.
    Last edited by Kaiwen; 2020-01-19 at 08:08 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Optimizing a class using this build

    What's the point of this thread? To find out how broken a PC can become with unlimited access to anything ever published for the d20 system, including PF and GM guidelines/systems not even intended to be used by players? In that case I suggest you google "Pun-Pun".

    Does this have any practical or even theoretical value or application?

    Quote Originally Posted by OGDojo View Post
    built using the Advanced race guide from
    Which isn't intended to be used unsupervised by players, and is more importantly infamously poorly balanced. Honestly, you'd probably even have an easier time convincing people that whatever silly broken race you've created is fine by not mentioning you used the Race Creation system.

    Ptah's cunning adds your intelligence modifier to your AC as a dodge bonus
    Tufnut's Endurance adds your Con modifier as natural armor
    Wait... Are you saying one of the goals here is, of all things, to maximize AC?!

    so i was wondering... what kind of bad ass characters can you make out of these?? i wanna hear suggestions to make it better.
    Considering there are obviously no limitations on which material you can use, and you use a starting point already utterly broken in any game even remotely close to "normal", you can make it into practically anything you can imagine, and a virtually infinite number of stuff you most likely can't imagine...

    I'm sorry, but I have a very hard time taking this seriously without more info.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: Optimizing a class using this build

    This sounds like a homebrew race to me.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Optimizing a class using this build

    as stated above Ruhk is a race built using the race builder from pathfinder. its a 25RP race built using the race builder in the back of the Advanced Race Guide.

    the 5 other "Races" are actually templates and they dont change the Ruhk race, they add to it so as long as i am willing to take the hits to my class levels its allowed.

    the point of this isnt to build another pun-pun, everyone on this thread has heard of pun pun and im sick of it being the epitome of what you can do as a player! it relies too heavily on the DM saying "Yeah you can totally do that before game starts" whereas this a completely legal way of breaking the character, granted it uses pathfinder (d20 system) and D&D 3.5 (d20 system) it is still all player built with no need to ask the DM to okay it.

    i hate pun pun. pun pun is like watching a DM build an unbeatable character for his little brother for a campaign that the older brother is running. pun pun isnt cool, its broken and stupid. even with these huge boosts to everything this character is still beatable, and alot easier to beat than you think. i mean hell a breath weapon or AOE spells can easily defeat this race without any issues, my purpose isnt to build another punpun, the reason i put this thread here is to see what kind of characters you can build using these options as a base.
    Check me out on TikTok @OGDojo also check out my Youtube @ObscureGamingDojo
    All Martial Arts Begin with Imitation.
    Factotums are the weakest yet most powerful class, if built properly

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Optimizing a class using this build

    It's a completely legal way of breaking a character... If you take a full 5 levels of level adjustment. You're wondering why an ecl 6 character is more powerful than an ecl 1 character. It's not really that surprising. Optimizing AC of all things isn't even that great either, anyone capable of magic has a about half a dozen tricks that don't target AC and even a lot of martials have ways around it.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Optimizing a class using this build

    Quote Originally Posted by OGDojo View Post
    the point of this isnt to build another pun-pun, everyone on this thread has heard of pun pun and im sick of it being the epitome of what you can do as a player!
    OK. Unfortunately I still find it very hard to tell what kind of advice you're looking for, since it still appears to me that you can use any player option or GM guideline/subsystem ever published for any d20 rules system, even if they're explicitly designed to be mutually exclusive, and you've so far only said you'd like build ideas using your race and advice on how to make it "better". And I'm afraid that's not nearly enough of a framework for me to give you advice and tips you'll actually find useful, as with no rules limitations, no level/party/game style/power level info, and not even any preferences on which kind of build you'd prefer, for all practical intents and purposes you can do absolutely anything based on that race/template combo.

    Btw, I think very few people regard Pun-Pun as "the epitome of what you can do as a player". Most people who have at least have some idea of who/what Pun-Pun is probably regard him as a symbol of RPG char-op culture in general and its largest and nerdiest 3.5 subculture in particular, and as an effective warning sign illustrating how broken 3.5 PCs can be even when built strictly according to RAW and without homebrew or 3PP options or any special GM permissions. A lot of people probably also still regard him as an amusing and quite brilliant piece of TO (myself included).

    it relies too heavily on the DM saying "Yeah you can totally do that before game starts"
    Pun-Pun is actually not dependent on any notable pre-game preps or anything else requiring special DM permission. On the contrary, he only uses what any 1st level PC at the time could expect to have access to in a rather typical game, and only options which were written for the same game and published by that game's IP rights owner (WotC). And as far as we can tell all those options were also intended by the publisher to play nicely together as written in a 3.5 game. Otherwise, Pun-Pun never would've become even remotely as (in)famous as he is, since likely none of the COB regulars on the old Gleemax forums would've found him particularly noteworthy or surprising in the first place if he had relied on say different explicitly setting-specific or 3PP material or DM fiat/permission.

    i hate pun pun. pun pun is like watching a DM build an unbeatable character for his little brother for a campaign that the older brother is running. pun pun isnt cool, its broken and stupid.
    It seems you may have misunderstood the intent behind Pun-Pun; it's a purely theoretical build which of course never was intended to be played in a real game. Think of it as an experiment to find out just how ridiculously powerful the player options allowed in many/most 3.5 games at the time could make a PC strictly according to RAW.

    whereas this a completely legal way of breaking the character, granted it uses pathfinder (d20 system) and D&D 3.5 (d20 system) it is still all player built with no need to ask the DM to okay it.
    It seems to me it's actually quite the opposite, since unlike Pun-Pun, this build relies on rules and options which typically and/or explicitly:
    1. requires special DM permission: uses PF and highly setting-specific 3PP material in a game using the 3.5 core rules and a different setting (I assume).
    2. are not intended to be used by players without special DM permission and supervision: "The following rules allow GMs, or even players with GM oversight, to...".
    3. were not designed to be used together: PF's Race Creation system is designed to be used instead of PF's "Monsters as PCs" guidelines, and certainly not with 3.5 templates (or any 3.5 LA/RHD rules).
    4. were not published by the same IP rights owner: WotC, Paizo and Green Ronin are three different companies, in this case writing material for two (three?) different d20 rule sets.
    5. were not written for the same specific rules system: the PF (and AFAICT Egyptian Adventures) rules are based on - and on the whole very similar to - those of 3.5, but they're far from identical, and neither one of these three sources were designed to be used together with either of the other two.

    If you intend to use this build in a real game, I recommend you first make certain your DM is actually both fully aware of and fine with you using as disparate sources, and with your homebrew race created with an infamously poorly balanced subsystem (not designed to be used by players without special DM permission and oversight).

    as stated above Ruhk is a race built using the race builder from pathfinder. its a 25RP race built using the race builder in the back of the Advanced Race Guide.
    Just in case you happened to miss this, note that a race with 25 RP is considered "monstrous" and therefore adds the equivalent of (typically) +2 LA at ECL 1-5, reduced to +1 LA at ECL 6-10 and then to 0 at ECL 11+.

    even with these huge boosts to everything this character is still beatable, and alot easier to beat than you think. i mean hell a breath weapon or AOE spells can easily defeat this race without any issues,
    Of course, but if you meant "greater mechanical power" when you asked for advice on how to make it "better", the answer is again that there are absolutely no limits since the apparent "anything and everything goes" lack of rules and material limitations can make your base into anything of any power.

    my purpose isnt to build another punpun, the reason i put this thread here is to see what kind of characters you can build using these options as a base.
    I suspected as much. Then maybe you could help me out a bit, for example by defining what you meant by "better" in the OP, and giving me whatever other details I may have missed or misunderstood?

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    It's a completely legal way of breaking a character... If you take a full 5 levels of level adjustment.
    Unfortunately it's actually quite far from "completely legal" (see above). And because of the base race's many RP adding an additional +1 LA, this build wouldn't be able to start before ECL 7 (with one class level/RHD).

    You're wondering why an ecl 6 character is more powerful than an ecl 1 character. It's not really that surprising. Optimizing AC of all things isn't even that great either, anyone capable of magic has a about half a dozen tricks that don't target AC and even a lot of martials have ways around it.
    This.
    Last edited by upho; 2020-01-22 at 01:37 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Optimizing a class using this build

    I'll start by saying that you should check with your DM before playing that build, as it seems like it could cause some pretty big interparty issues unless your party is playing similarly broken builds. Even then, your DM probably spent a lot of effort building a world and balancing it and if you use a build like this it could sour the game -- My rule of thumb is I imagine playing a standard build at whatever level (e.g. Wizard 10, Fighter 10, Cleric 10) and compare it to what your build would look like at the same level, and I think "Would I think it was fair if my DM sent as many of these as there are players against us?". If the answer is no, your build isn't really comparable to the power level it should be.

    The DM has final veto over any build, regardless of whether it is legal or not -- some DMs choose to ban wizards, or uberchargers, and although in an ideal world they would do all that before game, no DM is perfect and can fix EVERY exploit a player can think of, so sometimes they have to ban things mid game.

    Assuming you have some very permissive DM that ALLOWS your custom race and weird template combo, I believe what you are looking for can be found by googling "Getting X to Y - A Pathfinder guide to using your ability scores" to leverage your Int score into useful boosts. Off the top of my head, assuming you play with 3.5 material as well, there's another 3.5 guide, but Factotum 3 (Brain over Brawn) and Marshal 1 (Minor Aura) might be a good place to start.
    My Homebrew:
    WIP
    The Fortunar Base Class: A Fortuneteller wielding a minor Deck of Many Things. Mid T3.

    Completed Classes
    The Grandmaster : A master of animated stattuettes and tactical magic. High tier 3.
    The Hidden Word: An infiltrator with a wide range of abilities that works best in small teams. Tier 2-3
    Web-Spinner: A martial class based around using webs. Mid T3.
    The True Warrior: A swift mundane martial combat class that can dodge and slice their way to victory. Low Tier 3.

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