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    BardGuy

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    Default Charm Person, Twice?

    So what would happen if two opposing people both cast charm person or dominate on the same target, with the target failing both saves.

    Would the result just be confusion, or does one overlap the other?

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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    Charm adds alliances, it doesn't delete old ones, there is no conflict
    However, you can't be affected by the same effect twice. Unless the first casting is somehow more potent, only the latest is in effect as long as their durations overlap.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals get loose.

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    However, you can't be affected by the same effect twice. Unless the first casting is somehow more potent, only the latest is in effect as long as their durations overlap.
    That must be either new with 5e or else a questionable interpretation. Even as stated above by you I reckon that they are not the same effect even though they are the same spell, the first spells effect is to make the tarbet friendly to the first caster and the second spell's effect is to make them friendly to the second cancer

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    However, you can't be affected by the same effect twice. Unless the first casting is somehow more potent, only the latest is in effect as long as their durations overlap.
    That must be either new with 5e or else a questionable interpretation. Even as stated above by you I reckon that they are not the same effect even though they are the same spell, the first spells effect is to make the tarbet friendly to the first caster and the second spell's effect is to make them friendly to the second cancer
    See below,

    Quote Originally Posted by Basic Rules/Player's Handbook
    Combining Magical Effects
    The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times donít combine, however. Instead, the most potent effectósuch as the highest bonusófrom those castings applies while their durations overlap.

    For example, if two clerics cast bless on the same target, that character gains the spellís benefit only once; he or she doesnít get to roll two bonus dice.
    Two charm persons on one target, cast by two opposing casters, overlap in duration, but the more potent one (in this case, the one with the highest spell save DC) trumps the less potent one for the duration.
    It is exactly the same effect because it's caused by the same spell.

    (Potential house rule: If both casters are of equal power and cast the same spell on same target, I would let the spell effect apply simultaneously from both casters, if it makes sense. In the case of Charm Person, for example, the target would essentially consider both casters as their allies and friends, and would do no harm towards either. If both casters try to command the target to attack the other, it's basically an opposed charisma check between three participants, with the highest one winning the contest.)

    Besides, it's definitely nothing new to D&D, so I have to wonder, which edition have you played before 5th.

    Spoiler: For reference, same rule/-s from 3.5
    Show

    Emphasis mine; Even the previous edition before 5th edition that followed a similar rules structure ruled Combining Magical Effects in a very similar way (just with a lot more text, basically).
    Quote Originally Posted by System Reference Document
    Combining Magical Effects
    Spells or magical effects usually work as described, no matter how many other spells or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient. Except in special cases, a spell does not affect the way another spell operates. Whenever a spell has a specific effect on other spells, the spell description explains that effect. Several other general rules apply when spells or magical effects operate in the same place:

    Stacking Effects
    Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type donít stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).

    Different Bonus Names
    The bonuses or penalties from two different spells stack if the modifiers are of different types. A bonus that isnít named stacks with any bonus.

    Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths
    In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.

    Same Effect with Differing Results
    The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts.

    One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant
    Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion.

    Multiple Mental Control Effects
    Sometimes magical effects that establish mental control render each other irrelevant, such as a spell that removes the subjects ability to act. Mental controls that donít remove the recipientís ability to act usually do not interfere with each other. If a creature is under the mental control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.

    Spells with Opposite Effects
    Spells with opposite effects apply normally, with all bonuses, penalties, or changes accruing in the order that they apply. Some spells negate or counter each other. This is a special effect that is noted in a spellís description.

    Instantaneous Effects
    Two or more spells with instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same target.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2020-01-20 at 03:20 AM.
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    That must be either new with 5e or else a questionable interpretation. Even as stated above by you I reckon that they are not the same effect even though they are the same spell, the first spells effect is to make the tarbet friendly to the first caster and the second spell's effect is to make them friendly to the second cancer
    New as from 1st printing PHB:
    "The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap. The effects of the same spell cast multiple times don't combine, however. lnstead, the most potent effect-such as the highest bonus-from those castings applies while their durations overlap."

    (Latest?) Errata added this sentence after that: "Or the most recent effect applies if the castings are equally potent and their durations overlap.Ē

    There's also DMG saying the same thing after the first DMG errata: "Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of themóthe most potent oneóapply while the durations of the effects overlap. For example, if a target is ignited by a fire elementalís Fire Form trait, the ongoing fire damage doesnít increase if the burning target is subjected to that trait again. Game features include spells, class features, feats, racial traits, monster abilities, and magic items. See the related rule in the ďCombining Magical EffectsĒ section of chapter 10 in the Playerís Handbook."
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals get loose.

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    See below,



    Two charm persons on one target, cast by two opposing casters, overlap in duration, but the more potent one (in this case, the one with the highest spell save DC) trumps the less potent one for the duration.
    It is exactly the same effect because it's caused by the same spell.
    While the description of how to resolve it is correct, the last sentence is not.

    Two instances of charm person are not the exact same effect in the same way that two instances of bless are the exact same same effect.

    Iím not getting into an assinine debate over a point thatís fairly subtle, but Bohandas is right about this point.

    I think that as long as the durations overlap, both effects apply or, if those effects are in conflict, the more potent applies. Iím not sure if there is RAW on how to decide which is more potent, but spell slot used, caster level, and degree of saving throw failure (in that order) all seem like reasonable measures if there is not.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by BurgerBeast View Post
    While the description of how to resolve it is correct, the last sentence is not.

    Two instances of charm person are not the exact same effect in the same way that two instances of bless are the exact same same effect.

    Iím not getting into an asinine debate over a point thatís fairly subtle, but Bohandas is right about this point.

    I think that as long as the durations overlap, both effects apply or, if those effects are in conflict, the more potent applies. Iím not sure if there is RAW on how to decide which is more potent, but spell slot used, caster level, and degree of saving throw failure (in that order) all seem like reasonable measures if there is not.
    But you already did?

    If two spells being cast have the same name and effect, how are they not the same spell and effect? Are you seriously trying to make an argument based on semantics that since it's not the same occasion of casting the same spell, it's not the same effect? That is asinine.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2020-01-20 at 04:22 AM.
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    Lizardfolk

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    But you already did?

    If two spells being cast have the same name and effect, how are they not the same spell and effect? Are you seriously trying to make an argument based on semantics that since it's not the same occasion of casting the same spell, it's not the same effect? That is asinine.

    They do not have the same effects though.



    Charm Person

    "You attempt to charm a Humanoid you can see within range. It must make a Wisdom saving throw, and does so with advantage if you or your companions are fighting it. If it fails the saving throw, it is Charmed by you until the spell ends or until you or your companions do anything harmful to it. The Charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance. When the spell ends, the creature knows it was Charmed by you."

    I bolded the specific part of the spell that changes when another caster would cast the same spell. So two different casters could charm person the same target. The target wouldn't be super charmed or whatever but the spell would still take effect due to the difference in casters and both now being a "friendly acquaintance".

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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpawnOfMorbo View Post
    They do not have the same effects though.



    Charm Person

    "You attempt to charm a Humanoid you can see within range. It must make a Wisdom saving throw, and does so with advantage if you or your companions are fighting it. If it fails the saving throw, it is Charmed by you until the spell ends or until you or your companions do anything harmful to it. The Charmed creature regards you as a friendly acquaintance. When the spell ends, the creature knows it was Charmed by you."

    I bolded the specific part of the spell that changes when another caster would cast the same spell. So two different casters could charm person the same target. The target wouldn't be super charmed or whatever but the spell would still take effect due to the difference in casters and both now being a "friendly acquaintance".
    The effect of the spell is to charm the target creature. Who it is charmed by is irrelevant.

    By your logic two people could use Dominate Person on the same target. Now this one doesn't work how you want things to work. BOTH casters charm the target, under your interpretation of the rules this is allowed. Now how do you resolve who's orders the target follows?

    This shows that the "charmed by X" and "charmed by Y" effects must be the same effect coming from different sources.

    You can continue to rule how you want at your table, but when answering rules questions label any houserules as such. The RAW answer to the interaction is the more potent, or more recently cast, effect takes place while their durations overlap.

    This could be The higher level spell slot used to cast the spell or, the higher DC used by the spell. I would use both, checking in the order listed. But I'm not sure if that part is RAW. I don't have time to try to look up if the rules define "more potent" right now. Either way both abilities can't take effect at the same time.

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galithar View Post
    The effect of the spell is to charm the target creature. Who it is charmed by is irrelevant.

    By your logic two people could use Dominate Person on the same target. Now this one doesn't work how you want things to work. BOTH casters charm the target, under your interpretation of the rules this is allowed. Now how do you resolve who's orders the target follows?

    This shows that the "charmed by X" and "charmed by Y" effects must be the same effect coming from different sources.

    You can continue to rule how you want at your table, but when answering rules questions label any houserules as such. The RAW answer to the interaction is the more potent, or more recently cast, effect takes place while their durations overlap.

    This could be The higher level spell slot used to cast the spell or, the higher DC used by the spell. I would use both, checking in the order listed. But I'm not sure if that part is RAW. I don't have time to try to look up if the rules define "more potent" right now. Either way both abilities can't take effect at the same time.
    I disagree with the bolded part. Both of the effects of the charmed condition specifically regard the interactions between charmer and charmed. If you are charmed by two different charmers, those are two different effects (charmed and frightened conditions are the 2 conditions where who is the source of charm/fear is specially relevant), and there is no overlap or even conflict between them, at least as regards the charmed condition itself and the additional effects of Charm Person ("regards you as a friendly acquaintance). You can regard two different people as friendly acquaintances, they can both have advantage on their charisma checks to influence you (rememebering that this is not mind control), and you cannot attack either of them.

    As regards Dominate Person, there is, in fact, a conflict, but this conflict does not arise from the Charmed condition itself, but from the added effects of the spell. For Dominate Person, the more potent one should prevail (but still without allowing attacks on the other charmer).
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2020-01-20 at 06:37 AM.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    I disagree with the bolded part. Both of the effects of the charmed condition specifically regard the interactions between charmer and charmed.
    Irrelevant. It is the same spell. It doesn't matter if it creates a "different charmed condition" or not to begin with - an argument i might even agree with.

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    at least as regards the charmed condition itself
    Possibly. Again, i might agree on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    and the additional effects of Charm Person ("regards you as a friendly acquaintance).
    No. You can't have 2 Charm Person running and active at the same time. The "less powerful" one isn't working as long as the "more powerful" one is.

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    You can regard two different people as friendly acquaintances, they can both have advantage on their charisma checks to influence you (rememebering that this is not mind control), and you cannot attack either of them.
    Possibly. Again, i might agree on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    As regards Dominate Person, there is, in fact, a conflict, but this conflict does not arise from the Charmed condition itself, but from the added effects of the spell.
    No. The conflict arises because there are two Dominate Person. That is, in and of itself, sufficient to "trigger" the rule working. There is no need to see what "effects" are there. One of the two spells isn't having an effect at all just because there are two instances of the same spell.

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePolarBear View Post
    Irrelevant. It is the same spell. It doesn't matter if it creates a "different charmed condition" or not to begin with - an argument i might even agree with.



    Possibly. Again, i might agree on this.



    No. You can't have 2 Charm Person running and active at the same time. The "less powerful" one isn't working as long as the "more powerful" one is.



    Possibly. Again, i might agree on this.



    No. The conflict arises because there are two Dominate Person. That is, in and of itself, sufficient to "trigger" the rule working. There is no need to see what "effects" are there. One of the two spells isn't having an effect at all just because there are two instances of the same spell.
    You are right by RAW, though in my table I would probably rule it differently.

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Reading this thread, I have a question. This is probably a bit of an edge case.

    What if someone is targeted by both Dominate Person and Dominate Monster? They are different spells. Who controls them now? What if they were both cast at using a level 9 spell slot?

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    I would say the one who cast Dominate Monster would be in control. It's a stronger effect, it targets all creatures rather than just humanoids, and it has a higher innate spell level to (not that that really means anything most of the time.)
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Protolisk View Post
    Reading this thread, I have a question. This is probably a bit of an edge case.

    What if someone is targeted by both Dominate Person and Dominate Monster? They are different spells. Who controls them now? What if they were both cast at using a level 9 spell slot?
    RAW i think there's really no "right" answer. It is not "the same spell" nor "the same feature". It could be extrapolated that it is "the same effect", expecially when cast at 9th level. I could see an argument saying that the newest is "stronger", that Dominate Monster is "stronger", that both cohexist at the same time possibly making the target unable to do pretty much anything.

    It is an interesting question. I would be interested in hearing about this from JC even if in an informal way with a bit of reasoning behind the possible RAW - RAI and RAwhat-JC-would-do.

    Also i should make a note to self to check the conditions (like charmed) because what Diplomancer said about charmed is just as interesting. I honestly do not remember how conditions work exactly (and are not explicitly stated as "features"). I mean... you can't really be double prone, but double charmed might make sense.
    If you can't be double charmed (for some rule i don't remember about, for example) then it would also possibly solve the Dominate situation.

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by conditions
    "If multiple effects impose the same condition on a creature, each instance of the condition has its own duration, but the conditionís effects donít get worse. A creature either has a condition or doesnít"
    So, with charm person or whatever other spell, both casters can cast it on a creature each having their own duration of how long the creature is charmed and each are a "friendly acquaintance" to the target.

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Protolisk View Post
    Reading this thread, I have a question. This is probably a bit of an edge case.

    What if someone is targeted by both Dominate Person and Dominate Monster? They are different spells. Who controls them now? What if they were both cast at using a level 9 spell slot?
    Assuming the DC/caster level was the same for both castings, the target is charmed by both casters, have a telepathic link with both casters and does its best to obey both casters. If their orders ever conflict, whoever cast the more recent spell has priority.

    A good way to think about it is Bestow Curse. You can't 'curse' someone with "is allergic to cat feathers" in order to negate a prior casting of Bestow Curse which gave them disadvantage on Strength checks. The subject would just have both curses, and if there was ever a situation where both apply, the stronger of the two (in terms of save DC/caster level) would take priority.

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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpawnOfMorbo View Post
    So, with charm person or whatever other spell, both casters can cast it on a creature each having their own duration of how long the creature is charmed and each are a "friendly acquaintance" to the target.
    But one of the spells effect are not considered when the same spell is cast two times on the same target. This includes causing the condition in the first place. A person under Charm Person entering an antimagic field would no longer be charmed just as much as a person under two Charm Person spells would be charmed only once - as if it was under a single Charm Person.

    - edit - Furthermore extrapolating from the quote... if a condition can't get worse it can't also increase the number of people you are charmed by. That very much would be "getting worse" for me.
    Last edited by ThePolarBear; 2020-01-20 at 05:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    But you already did?

    If two spells being cast have the same name and effect, how are they not the same spell and effect? Are you seriously trying to make an argument based on semantics that since it's not the same occasion of casting the same spell, it's not the same effect? That is asinine.
    Youíve presented a circular argument. If two spells have the same name and effect, then they have the same name and effect. But I am denying that they have the same effect. Thatís the point.

    It is not a semantic argument. It is a logical argument.

    You are tripping over semantics, which makes it hard for you to understand my point.

    Consider a spell that gives the target disadvantage to attack the caster. If two different casters cast this spell, does one override the other? I think the answer is obviously not. The target just has disadvantage to hit two different people.

    The effect of bless is to give me +1d4 to various rolls. A second casting gives me +1d4 to the same various rolls. That is exactly the same effect.

    If Joe casts a spell on me that makes me see Joe as a friend, and then Sally casts the same spell as Joe on me that makes me see Sally as a friend... that is not exactly the same effect. Seeing Joe as a friend is not the same as seeing Sally as a friend.

    This is plain as day. You cannot be confused by this unless you are tripping over semantics (same vs same).

    Same spell. Not the same effect.

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by BurgerBeast View Post
    Youíve presented a circular argument. If two spells have the same name and effect, then they have the same name and effect. But I am denying that they have the same effect. Thatís the point.

    *Snip*
    It doesn't matter if they have the same effect or not. "Same name" is all that matters. If you fail your save against two different castings of Charm Person, only the most potent (or latest, if both are equaly potent) has an effect on you. The effect doesn't have to be the same.... you can't have advantage on two types of ability check from two castings of Enhance Ability either. You certainly can be charmed by multiple different creatures, as long as they are using different means of charming you.

    If Joe casts a spell on you that makes you see Joe as a friend, and then Sally casts the same spell as Joe on you that makes you see Sally as a friend, the effect of Joe's spell is overwritten and you don't have to see Joe as a friend, as long as you're under Sally's spell.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals get loose.

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    If Joe casts a spell on you that makes you see Joe as a friend, and then Sally casts the same spell as Joe on you that makes you see Sally as a friend, the effect of Joe's spell is overwritten and you don't have to see Joe as a friend, as long as you're under Sally's spell.
    Source? If not, this is pure interpretation.

    Thereís a difference between over-riding and over-writing.

    It seems plain as day to me, for example, that one character can be under the effect of two bless spells. The effects donít stack, but one doesnít overwrite the other. In other words, if either one is dispelled, her still be under the effect of the other.

    Edit: you do appear to be right that only the name matters. I would still say both charms are active but only one effect takes place, RAW. This is just a terrible rule, IMHO, and I will be house ruling it. There must be quite a few examples to illustrate how terrible this is.
    Last edited by BurgerBeast; 2020-01-21 at 03:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by BurgerBeast View Post
    Source? If not, this is pure interpretation.

    Thereís a difference between over-riding and over-writing.

    It seems plain as day to me, for example, that one character can be under the effect of two bless spells. The effects donít stack, but one doesnít overwrite the other. In other words, if either one is dispelled, her still be under the effect of the other.
    Having thought about this overnight, I'm inclined to agree, that the target of same spell from multiple different casters can have any number of the same spell active at the same time, while their durations overlap (until they don't, in which case the ones still active matter). BUT, the effect of the same spell applies only once (see the example of Bless: two Bless spells can be active at the same time while their durations overlap, but the effect (a bonus 1d4) applies only once). If the spell's effect is somehow dependent on the whims of the caster, the most potent spell's caster is the one pulling those figurative strings. I admit the rules are unclear about what amounts to potency, as "potency" lacks any clear definition. But things like that are always subject to the DM's interpretation, and whatever the DM rules is final (and varies from table to table). Period.

    Edit: Of course, DM's are free (you might even say encouraged) to make house rules in their games, barring global campaigns, such as AL, in which all DM's must follow same rulings made by the organizer (WotC representative).
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2020-01-21 at 04:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    You certainly can be charmed by multiple different creatures, as long as they are using different means of charming you.
    Can you? If conditions can't get worse, can you be charmed by multiple different creatures at the same time? Or you could be charmed by each singular creature one at the time, and the others have to wait for that particular charm to end for theirs to work? Or do they have to wait for their charm to even stick?

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    If Joe casts a spell on you that makes you see Joe as a friend, and then Sally casts the same spell as Joe on you that makes you see Sally as a friend, the effect of Joe's spell is overwritten and you don't have to see Joe as a friend, as long as you're under Sally's spell.
    Only if we assume that Sally spell is "more powerful". But yes.

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePolarBear View Post
    Can you? If conditions can't get worse, can you be charmed by multiple different creatures at the same time? Or you could be charmed by each singular creature one at the time, and the others have to wait for that particular charm to end for theirs to work? Or do they have to wait for their charm to even stick?



    Only if we assume that Sally spell is "more powerful". But yes.
    You can definitely be grappled by more than one creature, so it should be possible to be charmed by more than one creature.
    https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/...96806573146112

    It's the specific spell rules that trump the general condition rules that preclude having a target be affected by 2 charm persons simultaneously (though they CAN be affected by a charm person and a dominate person simultaneously, and, in my opinion, the "general command" dominate rules would still preclude attacking the caster of charm person. Only the "using your action to take full control" would override that restriction).
    Last edited by diplomancer; 2020-01-21 at 05:58 AM.

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    I wonder how many times do people have to be reminded that tweets are not official rules or rulings.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2020-01-21 at 06:00 AM.
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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    I wonder how many times do people have to be reminded that tweets are not official rules or rulings.
    I know you were being ironic, but the answer to your question is "I don't, but it is annoying have to put that disclaimer every time a tweet is quoted. Though it is not official rules, it still has some evidentiary value as a 'reasonable ruling' ".

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    You can definitely be grappled by more than one creature, so it should be possible to be charmed by more than one creature.
    And you can be proned more than once, but that doesn't make you any more or any less proned. I get that you are grappled by 1 and 2 at the same time. It isn't really relevant what "grappled" you are ending unless you are ending both. You would otherwise still be "grappled". The effects don't change from the point of view of the one being grappled. It changes what are the "ending conditions", so to speak. The same doesn't hold true for charmed, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    It's the specific spell rules that trump the general condition rules that preclude having a target be affected by 2 charm persons simultaneously (though they CAN be affected by a charm person and a dominate person simultaneously, and, in my opinion, the "general command" dominate rules would still preclude attacking the caster of charm person. Only the "using your action to take full control" would override that restriction).
    But the condition quote from SpawnOfMorbo make clear that conditions can't get worse! Being grappled by one or two people doesn't make me any more or any less immobile. I can have my ears burned and damage in the brain making me deaf for two different reasons, each running its course when the other is "cured" otherwise both cohexisting peacefully. The creatures grabbing the same target do not interfere, unless some other effect comes into play. Only the "release" is changed and all those who are grabbing can now move the target, possibly ending the other grapple. I don't take the penalities twice, however. So... Why should i take the penalities for being charmed twice? The condition is getting worse, and by the quote that shouldn't be possible! It isn't getting worse on the same person, but it is getting worse!

    On the Dominate+charm: under a... funny... reading of RAW you can cast Dominate X to a person that is already charmed (not by you), have them succeed the saving throw, and still control all their actions.

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePolarBear View Post
    And you can be proned more than once, but that doesn't make you any more or any less proned. I get that you are grappled by 1 and 2 at the same time. It isn't really relevant what "grappled" you are ending unless you are ending both. You would otherwise still be "grappled". The effects don't change from the point of view of the one being grappled. It changes what are the "ending conditions", so to speak. The same doesn't hold true for charmed, however.



    But the condition quote from SpawnOfMorbo make clear that conditions can't get worse! Being grappled by one or two people doesn't make me any more or any less immobile. I can have my ears burned and damage in the brain making me deaf for two different reasons, each running its course when the other is "cured" otherwise both cohexisting peacefully. The creatures grabbing the same target do not interfere, unless some other effect comes into play. Only the "release" is changed and all those who are grabbing can now move the target, possibly ending the other grapple. I don't take the penalities twice, however. So... Why should i take the penalities for being charmed twice? The condition is getting worse, and by the quote that shouldn't be possible! It isn't getting worse on the same person, but it is getting worse!

    On the Dominate+charm: under a... funny... reading of RAW you can cast Dominate X to a person that is already charmed (not by you), have them succeed the saving throw, and still control all their actions.
    I don't think that it's physically possible to be proned more than once, though, and there definitely isn't any mechanical advantage to it, unlike grappling, where it makes it harder for the grappled creature to escape (which also means that being grappled by multiple creatures is "worse" than being grappled by just one, in the same way that it is worse to be charmed by multiple creatures than by just one).

    As an aside, I love your... funny... interpretation of the RAW of dominate person, you are absolutely right that it would mean that and this is too funny. I suppose a lot of spells might have that loophole.

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    Default Re: Charm Person, Twice?

    Quote Originally Posted by diplomancer View Post
    I don't think that it's physically possible to be proned more than once, though, and there definitely isn't any mechanical advantage to it, unlike grappling, where it makes it harder for the grappled creature to escape (which also means that being grappled by multiple creatures is "worse" than being grappled by just one, in the same way that it is worse to be charmed by multiple creatures than by just one).
    Grappled doesn't get any worse. The only effect that isn't related to ending the condition on the condition itself is that your speed is zero (and can't gain boni to speed). It just gets harder to get rid of it and there is no real change if we apply the "condition rule" strictly the "you can move" part of the rule is on the grappler. It is not the same for charmed! The first point is that "you can't attack the charmer". If there are three people in the room there is a significant difference in having two grappling the third and having the two charming the target in possible results in regards to the simple condition itself!

    For grappling, no matter the order, everyone can do everything and the creature suffering from the grappling condition can't move regardless and both grapples have to cease to exist before they can move again. Moving a grappled creature relies on the fact that you are grappling them and that the creature is grappled. Not that is grappled -by you, you are the one inflicting the condition that is currently evaluated -, even if the result is usually the case. Meaning: you can still grapple creatures that are immune to the grappled condition. They can't be moved by you, they don't suffer from the condition, and you holding them grants you absolutely no advantage (in general) and only uses up a hand. The rules for you grappling are not the rules for the grappling condition.

    For charmed, there is a significant difference in the order and if the target can be charmed twice. If it can't be charmed again, the target can still attack another creature in the room. If it can, the target can't attack anyone but themselves. It is getting worse and not only in "how many times do i need to end the condition", because if both conditions are running at the same time there are two effects cohexisting. If i can only have one condition and it can't get worse, i should be able, if charmed by A before B, to attack B freely until the charm by A ends.

    Am i being wrong somewhere in this reasoning?

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