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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    jaappleton's Avatar

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    Default What to round out this Avernus group?

    VHuman Dragon Sorc - Lightning (DM auto-granting Elemental Adept, because having a thematic PC going against stuff with resistances sucks)

    Kobold Dex-Based Fighter (unsure if melee or ranged)

    Eladrin Scout Rogue (ranged based)

    Party Member 4 is totally up in the air.

    Aaaaaaand me. There’s no tank, no healer, no support caster, no utility caster, apparently I need to play as Jesus.

    I’m thinking Cleric or Druid? But I’m very open.

  2. - Top - End - #2
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: What to round out this Avernus group?

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    VHuman Dragon Sorc - Lightning (DM auto-granting Elemental Adept, because having a thematic PC going against stuff with resistances sucks)

    Kobold Dex-Based Fighter (unsure if melee or ranged)

    Eladrin Scout Rogue (ranged based)

    Party Member 4 is totally up in the air.

    Aaaaaaand me. There’s no tank, no healer, no support caster, no utility caster, apparently I need to play as Jesus.

    I’m thinking Cleric or Druid? But I’m very open.
    What level does it start at?

    A V. Human (Tough) Fighter1/Divine Soul x could fill all of those roles, so could an Artificer. If you went Druid I'd suggest Cirlce of Dreams since Balm of the Summer Court is a good bonus heal freeing your action up for casting (and I imagine the resting ability will come in handy in Hell).
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: What to round out this Avernus group?

    Alright, so yeah, you definitely do want to play an open-ended caster. Honestly, both Cleric and Druid are very good in the adventure path, and Cleric in particular has some abilities that really shine (an earlier thread discussed how a Forge Cleric's inherent magic weapon and fire resistance are golden in Avernus if you wanna bash face). Cleric and Druid can both repick their spells daily so it's easy enough to adapt given enemies and both of them have plenty of solid spells that do work against Avernus-enemies as well. Spirit Guardians is fine in Avernus; even if enemy makes their save they're taking hits and it has a damage type that is never resisted. By the same token, Sickening Radiance of course works from the Wizard list. Druids are mostly using their usual summons, which aren't that effective at dealing damage against resistant enemies, but they can still use the other normal actions (grapple, shove, help, etc.) and that tends to be good enough.

    Wizard wouldn't hurt at all either; you could either go melee Wizard (Hobgoblin Iron Wizard is always a fine option, though a simple Bladesinger is more than solid as well, and Vuman-based builds work as well) or just caster Wizard and either would give the party a lot of what you're looking for (you can produce some melee tanks too). Wizardic Ritual Casting is real nice (starting from Tiny Hut to ensure your endurance resources can be restored as necessary). Just be careful with your spell choice; fire immunity is very common as are elemental resistances. Best cantrips are Booming Blade and Chill Touch, and you'll want to opt away from stuff like Fireball and company unless you're running a Lore Wizard. Same with control spells - magic resistance is very common. Thus pick summons and minionmancy (they can use Help and block movement and such even when their damage type isn't optimal), spells with effects on successful saves, spells that offer no saves (Wall-spells, Fogs and such are very good; Alert-feat makes Fog spells brutal as enemies have disadvantage while the party attacks normally), and if you wanna do damage, simple Magic Missile is fine as is anything with an attack roll. Buffs and defensive spells are of significant value as they don't require rolls. Diviner is a nice option in that it can replace the enemy save even if enemy has advantage thus enabling you guaranteed punchthroughs against Magic Resistance.


    A joker option would be the Artificer. It's very hard to get magic items in the path and it just so happens you need magic weapons for mook types (melee types) to properly hurt many of the enemies you face. For casters this isn't such a problem; you have spells to that end. But to make the party shine, you want to make your mooks able to contribute as well. Artificer kinda offers something in that regard. However, full casters of course do have options like the Magic Weapon-spell as well. Of course, it's a hefty cost to use your Concentration but it's still fine. Either way, I'd try to round the group out with either a Wizard, a Cleric or a Druid. Probably rather Wizard or Cleric due to the nature of the adventure path.

    Healing isn't that essential so I wouldn't worry about it if you were interested in going Wizard. If you do want to pick up Healing Word for yoyoing, you can always Magic Initiate for it (or do one of those Cleric 1/Wizard multiclass builds - but it delays your big hitters so I'd be a bit leery of using the build when starting on low level).


    TL;DR: I would 100% suggest a Cleric or a Wizard. Druid works too but Cleric and Wizard are slightly better suited for Avernus on the fundamental level and both can do all the things the party needs done when built accordingly. Just make sure to keep your melee options open (War Caster is a nice feat too) and make sure you're survivable. Then just spend the rest of your slots on being a supportive utility frontliner (both Cleric and Wizard spells are obviously amazing at this, with some bias in certain areas).

    Many classes would work but those two are the best for covering a ton of roles at once.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2020-01-26 at 02:32 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #4
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: What to round out this Avernus group?

    Well, based on your worries, I'd suggest a Forge Cleric. They get heavy armor, can make a weapon magical, that would kinda round out the healing/tank gap. If WGtE isn't available, then I'd say War or Tempest domain cleric. If the 4th player takes something that fills that gap, then I'd suggest a Circle of Dreams druid, that gives you the ability to support your party outside of combat as well as during it.

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    Default Re: What to round out this Avernus group?

    Avernus is really deadly and tough. I think your party needs a cleric and probably a tanky one to help anchor the front line.

    Obviously here are lots of different options but I would suggest taking your first level in sorcerer for the CON saves, extra cantrips, Shield, Absorb Elements, Booming Blade, and some 1st level benefits depending on what kind of sorcerer. Those will all help you hang tough on the front line. The sorcerer cantrips will give you alot of tools in and out of combat that do not cost resources (which are a probelm in Avernus)

    Hill Dwarfs are going to be good because you can dump STR and still wear heavy armor, good vs poison, and extra HP. VHuman is never a bad choice either.

    Life, Forge, Grave, Arcana, or Nature (w Shillalagh) domains would all be solid choices.
    Last edited by McSkrag; 2020-01-26 at 02:52 AM.

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    Default Re: What to round out this Avernus group?

    A melee Cleric like a Forge or Tempest Cleric is a solid choice for Avernus. Forge was previously recommended, and it's certainly nice for its "free" magic weapon, creative utility, and eventual fire resistance, but remember that a number of Forge's abilities and domain spells are fire-related, and all Fiends are immune to fire.

    A Sorcadin going Divine Soul is another great choice. It can also handle the same role as a melee Cleric, with some extra nova ability from Smite, plus Twinned buff spells, but less flexibility in your casting. Good choices are 2 levels of Paladin and the rest Sorcerer for more casting/smiting, or 6 levels of Paladin for more melee ability. Casting a Quickened Booming Blade as a bonus action gets you extra attack/damage in a round. (I'm currently playing a Vengeance/Divine Soul Sorcadin in Avernus, and it's been a blast.)

    A similar melee Divine Soul Sorcerer is doable with 1-3 levels in Hexblade Warlock. You're giving up Smites and Heavy Armor, but getting some short rest spell slots, useful Invocations, and the ability to use CHA for your melee attacks. And going 3 levels of Hexblade lets you choose Tomelock and Book of Ancient Secrets, for lots of lower level ritual utility casting.

    A melee Artificer like a Battle Smith could be a interesting choice too. Melee, with a bit of healing and utility casting, plus a second melee companion, and the ability to make your own magic weapons. Maybe with an eventual 2 level dip into War Mage for some extra utility from 1st level Rituals and a boost to your defense and initiative.

    Moon Druid is another option, which gets you a melee character that has a number of out of combat utility and healing spells. And your Wild Shape attacks become magical at Level 6, which helps with the dearth of magic weapons.
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2020-01-26 at 08:59 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: What to round out this Avernus group?

    Oh yeah,forgot, Theurge Wizard and Arcana Cleric would both also slot in beautifully. Arcana Cleric is built-in a melee beast and Theurge Wizard can cover all utility casting in the game and become a veritable melee beast too should they feel like it. Vuman Shillelagh (Magic Initiate) Arcana Cleric would be golden; Booming Blading in the face with Shillelagh staff for fully magical damage with very solid proficiencies.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2020-01-26 at 10:32 AM.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: What to round out this Avernus group?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Arcana Cleric is built-in a melee beast
    Sorry, how is Arcana Cleric a melee beast? They don't get heavy armor (I think medium armor is enough, but all clerics get that), have no melee centric abilities besides having the option of taking a melee cantrip and have a d8 hit die.
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    Default Re: What to round out this Avernus group?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Sorry, how is Arcana Cleric a melee beast? They don't get heavy armor (I think medium armor is enough, but all clerics get that), have no melee centric abilities besides having the option of taking a melee cantrip and have a d8 hit die.
    They get Booming Blade (and GFB) as a Cleric cantrip and Potent Cantrip. Add to that the ability to pick up Wis Shillelagh through Magic Initiate and you're 100% Wis-focused, with 2d8+3 + 1d8 damage on level 1. On level 8 you're looking at 3d8+10 base and a brutal addition if enemy moves (incredible with War Caster, particularly combined with Spirit Guardians, which enemy will certainly WANT to move away from).

    Since you're fully Wis SAD you can also easily afford 14 Dex and 16 Con putting you just 1 point of AC below Heavy Armor and at 0 opportunity cost for using a shield (so effectively 19 AC and Heavy Weapon-comparable damage). You're also able to use PAM if desired (though there's some real competition for your bonus action and reaction), and you can easily afford a good bundle of feats as you only care about 1 attribute. Though you probably want Warcaster as your level 8-12 feat for both, the BB AoO and Concentration checks.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2020-01-26 at 12:35 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #10
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: What to round out this Avernus group?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    They get Booming Blade (and GFB) as a Cleric cantrip and Potent Cantrip. Add to that the ability to pick up Wis Shillelagh through Magic Initiate and you're 100% Wis-focused, with 2d8+3 + 1d8 damage on level 1. On level 8 you're looking at 3d8+10 base and a brutal addition if enemy moves (incredible with War Caster, particularly combined with Spirit Guardians, which enemy will certainly WANT to move away from).

    Since you're fully Wis SAD you can also easily afford 14 Dex and 16 Con putting you just 1 point of AC below Heavy Armor and at 0 opportunity cost for using a shield (so effectively 19 AC and Heavy Weapon-comparable damage). You're also able to use PAM if desired (though there's some real competition for your bonus action and reaction), and you can easily afford a good bundle of feats as you only care about 1 attribute. Though you probably want Warcaster as your level 8-12 feat for both, the BB AoO and Concentration checks.
    The on attack extra damage doesn't kick in for the melee cantrips until level 5 and you can pick those up from Magic Initiate: Wizard anyway since they don't involve the casting mod. The Shillelagh can be done by any Cleric and Potent Cantrip doesn't kick in until level 8. You could go for a V. Human (MI: Wizard) Nature Cleric picking Shillelagh as your cantrip and achieve the exact same thing with Divine Strike which would let you mix up your damage types. You could also go with Forge Cleric and give yourself a +1 Shillelagh or ramp up your AC. Arcana Cleric is certainly a viable melee choice, but it doesn't really seem to stand above other Clerics as a melee specialist.
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  11. - Top - End - #11
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    Default Re: What to round out this Avernus group?

    What about.... What about something that controls action economy?

    For example: The Rogue is going to be an archer. Something like an Order Cleric would let me grant them an attack using their Reaction. (Yes it would compete for the Rogue’s ‘Uncanny Dodge’, but as an archer I think it could work out)

    Order also gets Slow, which would help a ton for action economy denial. Hypnotic Pattern is another solid one more widely available, but not to Clerics.

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    Default Re: What to round out this Avernus group?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    They get Booming Blade (and GFB) as a Cleric cantrip and Potent Cantrip. Add to that the ability to pick up Wis Shillelagh through Magic Initiate and you're 100% Wis-focused, with 2d8+3 + 1d8 damage on level 1. On level 8 you're looking at 3d8+10 base and a brutal addition if enemy moves (incredible with War Caster, particularly combined with Spirit Guardians, which enemy will certainly WANT to move away from).

    Since you're fully Wis SAD you can also easily afford 14 Dex and 16 Con putting you just 1 point of AC below Heavy Armor and at 0 opportunity cost for using a shield (so effectively 19 AC and Heavy Weapon-comparable damage).
    Your damage calculations from the melee cantrips are a bit off. The only damage for the first 4 levels is from the rider, if applicable. Then it's +1d8 per tier, starting at 5th.


    A High Elf or Variant High Half Elf Cleric with the Nature Domain can do the same, without spending a feat. Shillelagh from Nature domain free Druid cantrip. Booming Blade from racial free Wizard cantrip.

    Doesn't get Potent Cantrip, so no +5 to cantrip damage, but does get Divine Strike for +1d8 elemental damage (and +2d8 from 14+), which is +4.5 and +9 damage on average. So you're only off by a half point on average from 8-13 and ahead by 4 points on average from 14+. (Unless your DM happens to let you stack double Potent Cantrip for +5 from Shillelagh and another +5 from Booming Blade, which I personally wouldn't allow because Shillelagh is buffing the weapon's damage, but the damage itself is being done by the weapon, not specifically the Shillelagh cantrip itself.)

    In addition, Nature also gets Heavy Armor, and Nature's other features are arguably better suited for a melee character than those of an Arcana Cleric.
    Last edited by RogueJK; 2020-01-26 at 02:34 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #13
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    Default Re: What to round out this Avernus group?

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    VHuman Dragon Sorc - Lightning (DM auto-granting Elemental Adept, because having a thematic PC going against stuff with resistances sucks)

    Kobold Dex-Based Fighter (unsure if melee or ranged)

    Eladrin Scout Rogue (ranged based)

    Party Member 4 is totally up in the air.

    Aaaaaaand me. There’s no tank, no healer, no support caster, no utility caster, apparently I need to play as Jesus.

    I’m thinking Cleric or Druid? But I’m very open.
    You're fighting in hell.... oath of devotion paladin.

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    Default Re: What to round out this Avernus group?

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueJK View Post
    Your damage calculations from the melee cantrips are a bit off. The only damage for the first 4 levels is from the rider, if applicable. Then it's +1d8 per tier, starting at 5th.
    Yeah, that was a brainfart; I counted the movement damage as well and then somehow managed to use that as my base for the second tier damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueJK View Post
    A High Elf or Variant High Half Elf Cleric with the Nature Domain can do the same, without spending a feat. Shillelagh from Nature domain free Druid cantrip. Booming Blade from racial free Wizard cantrip.

    Doesn't get Potent Cantrip, so no +5 to cantrip damage, but does get Divine Strike for +1d8 elemental damage (and +2d8 from 14+), which is +4.5 and +9 damage on average. So you're only off by a half point on average from 8-13 and ahead by 4 points on average from 14+. (Unless your DM happens to let you stack double Potent Cantrip for +5 from Shillelagh and another +5 from Booming Blade, which I personally wouldn't allow because Shillelagh is buffing the weapon's damage, but the damage itself is being done by the weapon, not specifically the Shillelagh cantrip itself.)

    In addition, Nature also gets Heavy Armor, and Nature's other features are arguably better suited for a melee character than those of an Arcana Cleric.
    Well, spending a racial feat or picking a race for bonus abilities is kinda wash so there's no gain there. Vuman feat is approximately similar to High Elf racial features (you get Absorb Elements and some other nice cantrips that way to make up for the fact that High Elf gets more stuff; and your pick of Con and Dex instead of Dex, which for a heavy armor build isn't that useful).

    Also, BB applies its bonus Potent Cantrip damage on both, the primary and the secondary damage so it's a bit better than that if you can trigger both halves (especially with War Caster). But yeah, I'm not saying other Clerics weren't viable, just that Arcana Cleric is really good at it. It's a very synergistic and low opportunity cost pick. The second cantrip is a hard one though: Minor Illusion is just insanely good and versatile, but Chill Touch is, specifically with regards to this adventure path, probably the best long range cantrip in the game (attack roll, 120' range, rarely resisted damage type), which goes nicely with Potent Cantrip.

    Again, heavy armor doesn't really seem all that impressive; you're putting 15 in Str on a fully Wis build just to wield a heavy armor so point buy wise it's much worse than putting a 14 in Dex (which does all other sorts of useful stuff too) for 1 AC. You only care about Str if you're going for Athletics. And in this case you 100 % want the Shillelagh build since that makes your weapon count as magical guaranteeing you easy access to bashing fiends in the face.
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  15. - Top - End - #15
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: What to round out this Avernus group?

    Celestial Warlock. The first build in this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...fective-Builds

    You can function as a tank, healer, and utility caster all at once. You're using a magic weapon (via Shillelagh) from level 3, and you have a variety of control options. Your party needs a lot of bases covered, this covers all bases.

    Plus a Celestial Warlock is thematic for the adventure.
    Last edited by Evaar; 2020-01-27 at 05:45 PM.

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    Default Re: What to round out this Avernus group?

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    VHuman Dragon Sorc - Lightning (DM auto-granting Elemental Adept, because having a thematic PC going against stuff with resistances sucks)

    Kobold Dex-Based Fighter (unsure if melee or ranged)

    Eladrin Scout Rogue (ranged based)

    Party Member 4 is totally up in the air.

    Aaaaaaand me. There’s no tank, no healer, no support caster, no utility caster, apparently I need to play as Jesus.

    I’m thinking Cleric or Druid? But I’m very open.
    Hi!
    I was gonna say Druid from guts because of extra versatility compared to Cleric, but several people seem to consider this campaign/setting a harsh one. So a few Cleric may be other great choices: Grave in particular (good to pick people from 0, excellent CD in the long run when you have someone that can dish high single-instance damage), Trickery (Cleric with ability to make whole party sneaky), Order (as you said pairs nicely with Rogue or Paladin), Nature (Plant Growth is often "growthely" underestimated, halve elemental damage as reaction may be handy).

    Unless you really want to be a tank of sorts, I'd still push Druid, specifically Shepherd or Land, on top of other choices, with a nuance: a single or 2-level dip in a Cleric, so that you precisely can get some solid 1st level spells (Bless, Sanctuary) and cantrips (Sacred Flame, Guidance) as well as interesting features.
    - Life Cleric 1 would make you able to basically full-heal whole party for a single cast of Healing Spirit.
    - Tempest Cleric 2 would allow you decentish nova on a Call Lightning or Lightning Bolt (Mountain Druid IIRC).
    - Grave Cleric 2 would help spare slots, between the bonus action Spare the Dying, and auto-max healing roll on spells from 0 HP (great with Healing Words but also a "use" of Healing Spirit).
    - Knowledge Cleric 2 would make you a veryn *very* potent skillmonkey when paired with some Wild Shapes and possibly Enhance Ability.

    Beyond that, I think Druid is the best because of the following impressions.
    a) Druid has by far the best versatility of all casters. Even considering you'll have at least 5 or so spells kept at all time, you should still have some room to prepare situationally useful spells every day.
    b) Druid has Goodberry (no problem feeding in hostile environment), Pass Without Trace (sneak to avoid danger!), Healing Spirit (as told), but also Fog Cloud (great to create distraction or provide more or less "innocent" cover), and later Conjure Animals (ability to push action economy is great for a small party, plus they can be used in many different ways).
    c) Many Druid control spells rely on reducing mobility, which sometimes make them difficult to use without bothering melee allies. Apparently, already 2 of 4 party members can play full-ranged without any harm. Also, as far as ranged goes, Druid can help much dispatching enemies quickly by providing advantage with Faerie Fire.
    d) As far as resisting attrition goes, Druid, specifically Shepherd, will do much better than Cleric for your party (especially since so far no other member is a CHA-based one that could pick Inspiring Leader). Ability to set up THP every start of the day and possibly refresh them during fight makes a big difference in spell resource management, especially at low levels when you get only a few 1st and 2nd level spells for the whole day. Land has something to say here though, since getting "Arcane Recovery". Less good as far as resilience goes, but obviously more versatile. :)
    IMO Shepherd is still better because, again on resilience, activating the Unicorn aura on your group will give you an impressive healing capabitility for the lone cost of a single 1st level healing spell.
    e) Even without expanded forms from Moon Druid, Wild Shape will still help you filling in every skill check none of your pals is proficient with, even if not by much difference.
    Last edited by HiveStriker; 2020-02-24 at 11:17 AM.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: What to round out this Avernus group?

    A hill dwarf life cleric,

    every short rest channel divinity preserve life... so you always have in combat healing available from 2nd level on.

    Preserve life in awesome

    Grab chainmail, at some point grab 1 level of fighter just for weapon access... unless you find magic hammers and axes... or barbarian if you have the dexterity to wear scale mail.

    Channel divinity works while raging, pop rage when needed and you have to become a meat shield

    Or just a plain old life cleric is quite nice and with new UA you can use blessed strikes

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    Default Re: What to round out this Avernus group?

    As long as you know how to play a Shepherd and the group is good with summoning, it is the strongest option in my opinion.

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