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    Post Way of the Seven Heavens: Celestial Monk

    This page on the Homebrewery

    Way of the Seven Heavens
    While most monks follow the ways of the universe, monks following the way of the seven heavens strive to mirror the abilities of celestials, drawing their power from the various groups of celestials that dwell in the outer planes.

    Some follow this path to more effectively strive for good, while others drain the power from a celestial for their own ends.

    Court Service
    When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you also enter the service of a particular group of celestials. You gain a benefit from this service at 3rd level, and additional benefits at 11th and 17th level.

    • Aasimon The Aasimon are statuesque humanoids with varying skin colors and wings. As a reaction when you take damage, you can spend 2 ki points to halve the attack’s damage against you.
    • Archeons Archeons are lawful and organized inhabitants of the upper planes. You may spend up to 5 ki points to cast Sanctuary. The first time you are hit by an attack, the damage is reduced by 1d4 per ki point you spent and the spell immediately ends. If the attack was a melee attack from a creature, the discharged energy deals radiant damage to the attacker equal to the damage reduced.
    • Eladrin Eladrin are fey rather than celestials, but are often mistaken for celestials given their regular cooperation with them. You can spend 3 ki points to cast misty step.
    • Guardinals Guardinals are beast like celestials, eschewing preference for law or chaos. You may spend 1 ki point on your turn while paralyzed or stunned to take a single action or bonus action, ignoring the condition when you do so. You cannot cast a spell or benefit from the extra attack feature while using an action in this manner. FInally, you can spend 1 ki point as an action in order to spend a hit die immediately, instead of needing to take a short rest. This hit die is concumed and heals you as normal.
    • Fallen Angels Dwelling in the lower planes, fallen angels act to support evil forces, enacting a terrible cost on their minions. When you use your Unhallowed Enemies feature, you can choose from among the following additional creature types: Beasts, Celestials, or Plants. When you choose humanoids instead, you can choose a third race of humanoid as a part of the same use of your unhallowed enemies feature.


    Unhallowed Enemies
    By spending 1 minute meditating, you can call upon your count to sanction a campaign against your foes. When you do so, you must choose a creature type from the following: Aberrations, Constructs, Dragons, Elementals, Fey, Fiends, Giants, Monstrosities, Oozes, or Undead. Alternatively, you can select two races of humanoid (such as gnolls and orcs).

    Until yo complete a short or long rest, you have advantage on Wisdom (Survival) checks to track your unhallowed enemies, as well as on Intelligence checks to recall information about them. You also gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls against your chosen enemies for the duration.

    You can use this feature once, and regain it at the end of a short or long rest. At 11th level, you have enough standing that you can use this feature twice, choosing different enemies each time.

    Divine Accuracy
    By 6th level, your dealings with the celestial realms have granted you some influence with those living in them. You can invoke your contacts among the upper planes, upon which they grant you a +3 bonus to melee attack rolls for 1 minute (no action required by you).

    You can use this ability a number of times equal to your wisdom modifier, and regain your uses of it at the end of a long rest.

    Favor of the Court
    At 11th level, you are infused with additional powers from your chosen court. This grants increased abilities, sometimes including spellcasting. If your court grants you the ability to cast a spell, the spell save DC is equal to 8 + your proficiency modifier + your wisdom modifier.

    • Aasimon Aasimon have the innate ability to see through illusions and know lies. As an action, you can spend 5 ki points, granting yourself either truesight to a range of 30 feet or the effects of a zone of truth spell within 30 feet for 1 hour, which travels with you. You can also spend 1 ki point to cast the Detect Magic spell.
    • Archeons You have picked up the power for the Archeons. When you hit a creature with a melee attack, you can spend ki points to empower your strike with radiant energy as part of the attack, to a maximum of 5 ki points. For each ki point you spend, you deal an additional 1d8 radiant damage.
    • Eladrin Eldarin form close bonds to nature You may spend 4 ki points to cast the conjure animals, or conjure woodland beings spells. You have advantage on saving throws to maintain concentration on spells you cast in this manner.
    • Guardinals You have healing abilities similar to those of the guardinals. As an action, you can reach out and touch a creature, spending 2 ki points to cure the target of one disease or neutralize one poison affecting it, or 4 ki points to cast the lesser restoration spell targeting that creature. You can spend additional ki points in this manner, curing a number of diseases or neutralizing a number of poisons equal to half the ki points spent.
    • Fallen Angels Torn from the heavens, fallen angels use their innate gifts to warp the minds of those they meet. You can spend 5 ki points to cast the *Charm Monster* spell without requiring any components. If you or your companions harm the target, it must succeed on a wisdom saving throw to end the spell. When the spell ends, you may spend an additional 4 ki points, upon which the creature does not know it was charmed by you (no action required).


    Godsblood
    From 17th level, your intrinsic link to the upper planes allows your to avoid harm. You have advantage on saving throws against the charmed, frightened, paralyzed, petrified, poisoned, and stunned conditions.

    You also gain resistance to Necrotic damage and one other damage type, based on the court of celestials you serve.

    • Aasimon Cold
    • Archereons Lightning
    • Eladrin Fire
    • Guardinals Poison
    • Fallen Angels Radiant






    Spoiler: Removed
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    Unhallowed Enemies
    Beginning at 3rd level, you have significant experience studying, tracking, and hunting, a certain type of enemy.

    Choose a type of unhallowed enemy: either fiends or undead.

    You have advantage on Wisdom (Survival) checks to track your unhallowed enemies, as well as on Intelligence checks to recall information about them. You also gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls against your unhallowed enemies.

    At 11th level, you gain a second unhallowed enemy; whichever option you did not choose at 3rd level.

    Fallen Angels Dwelling in the lower planes, fallen angels act to support evil forces, enacting a terrible cost on their minions. Your Unhallowed Enemies bonuses apply against celestials and fey as well as the normal creature types it applies to, the better to strike at other celestials and their fey allies.
    Last edited by sandmote; 2020-02-26 at 12:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Way of the Seven Heavens: Celestial Monk

    Archeons and Fallen Angels are subpar compared to the others.

    Archeons: Sanctuary means you can't hit back, which is kind of the monk's thing. And 1d4 damage by spending Ki when the Paladin is gaining 1d8 for free + d8s for spells is almost insulting.

    Fallen Angels: Gaining a bonus versus celestials seems niche, at best. And Charm Monster at lv 11 is slightly less insulting, but I'd make it both charm monster AND dominate person for extra utility.


    On he other hand, Eladrin gaining non-spell tactical teleportation at 3rd level is completely bonkers. It's basically a get out of jail (or grapple or manacles or etc) card. At level 3. Cut it out, or hashly nerf it. 3 ki points instead of 2, Action instead of Bonus Action, and 20ft instead of 30. All this and it would still be really good.

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    Default Re: Way of the Seven Heavens: Celestial Monk

    Yay, commentary!

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    Archeons and Fallen Angels are subpar compared to the others.

    Archeons: Sanctuary means you can't hit back, which is kind of the monk's thing. And 1d4 damage by spending Ki when the Paladin is gaining 1d8 for free + d8s for spells is almost insulting.

    Fallen Angels: Gaining a bonus versus celestials seems niche, at best. And Charm Monster at lv 11 is slightly less insulting, but I'd make it both charm monster AND dominate person for extra utility.


    On he other hand, Eladrin gaining non-spell tactical teleportation at 3rd level is completely bonkers. It's basically a get out of jail (or grapple or manacles or etc) card. At level 3. Cut it out, or hashly nerf it. 3 ki points instead of 2, Action instead of Bonus Action, and 20ft instead of 30. All this and it would still be really good.
    I was thinking sanctuary would work for attempting to keep combat from starting. Would also reducing the damage you take when the spell is discharged balance it out okay?

    I forgot about adding a limit to the number of ki points you can spend on a single such attack. With that 1d8 should be fine. Note, however, that monks can make 4 attacks on their turn, and regain their ki points at the end of a short rest, neither of which a paladin can match.

    Good point on the Eladrin. I'll nerf the ability, but I'm not sure what to replace it or fallen angel one with.

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    Default Re: Way of the Seven Heavens: Celestial Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    Yay, commentary!



    I was thinking sanctuary would work for attempting to keep combat from starting. Would also reducing the damage you take when the spell is discharged balance it out okay?

    I forgot about adding a limit to the number of ki points you can spend on a single such attack. With that 1d8 should be fine. Note, however, that monks can make 4 attacks on their turn, and regain their ki points at the end of a short rest, neither of which a paladin can match.

    Good point on the Eladrin. I'll nerf the ability, but I'm not sure what to replace it or fallen angel one with.
    Really like the changes you made, especially on the Eladrin

    By the time some has tried to attack you through the Sancturay, combat is likely inevitable, but the 2d4 reduciton is helpful on earlier levels. Maybe say that you can spend "X" Ki Points to cast it, and it reduces damage by Xd4?

    Fair point on them gaining an additional attack over the pally with TWF and recovering Ki on a shot rest, but still. Pallys get 1d8 automatically on every attack. Maybe make it a bit more different instead, and let them empower all their attacks for the round instead of a single attack. 2 ki for 1d4, then 1 extra ki for additional d4s

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    Default Re: Way of the Seven Heavens: Celestial Monk

    I'm glad the subclass is improving.

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    By the time some has tried to attack you through the Sancturay, combat is likely inevitable, but the 2d4 reduciton is helpful on earlier levels. Maybe say that you can spend "X" Ki Points to cast it, and it reduces damage by Xd4?

    Fair point on them gaining an additional attack over the pally with TWF and recovering Ki on a shot rest, but still. Pallys get 1d8 automatically on every attack. Maybe make it a bit more different instead, and let them empower all their attacks for the round instead of a single attack. 2 ki for 1d4, then 1 extra ki for additional d4s
    I will add the scaling damage reduction, although I'll also add a limit so you aren't autokilling the first minion to hit you.

    I (mis)remember increasing the Archeon's damage to 1d8 with a 5 ki point limit, but apparently never got around to it. Thanks for the catch.

    Would having the Fallen Angels' third level bonus apply to both celestials and fey bring it up to reasonable power?

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    Default Re: Way of the Seven Heavens: Celestial Monk

    I am not very versed in 5th, but don't monks get immunity to poison and disease allready at level 10? Is there a point to also gaining advantage against saving throws against that on level 17?
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    Default Re: Way of the Seven Heavens: Celestial Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by DMwithoutPC's View Post
    I am not very versed in 5th, but don't monks get immunity to poison and disease allready at level 10? Is there a point to also gaining advantage against saving throws against that on level 17?
    Well, 5e recently introduced Alternative Class Features. If you were to swap the immunity for something else you'd still have the advantage later. (Don't know if any published ACF changes Purity of Body, but still)

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    I'm glad the subclass is improving.

    Would having the Fallen Angels' third level bonus apply to both celestials and fey bring it up to reasonable power?
    Glad to help

    As for damage against Fey... Meh, I could take it or leave it. Plus, a bunch of Fey are Evil, so don't know how it fits the fluff. How about them substituting the bonuses against undead/fiends for bonuses against Good aligned creatures in general? It's potentially strong if they are part of an Evil party that fights mostly Good NPCs, but still nothing broken. They then wouldn't get the second Unhallowed Enemy at lv 11, but that's okay because you actually gave them a pretty cool ability at lv 11

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    Default Re: Way of the Seven Heavens: Celestial Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by DMwithoutPC's View Post
    I am not very versed in 5th, but don't monks get immunity to poison and disease allready at level 10? Is there a point to also gaining advantage against saving throws against that on level 17?
    Can I get a quote for what you're referring to? I've been treating "poison," the "poisoned" condition," and "poison damage," as separate (I don't actually know if that RAW/RAI) but I don't see anything about disease in the 17th level feature for the subclass.

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    As for damage against Fey... Meh, I could take it or leave it. Plus, a bunch of Fey are Evil, so don't know how it fits the fluff. How about them substituting the bonuses against undead/fiends for bonuses against Good aligned creatures in general? It's potentially strong if they are part of an Evil party that fights mostly Good NPCs, but still nothing broken. They then wouldn't get the second Unhallowed Enemy at lv 11, but that's okay because you actually gave them a pretty cool ability at lv 11
    I very much am opposed to bringing back 3.5e alignment based restrictions on abilities. I'll write in fey for now, with something about "such as eladrin."

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    Default Re: Way of the Seven Heavens: Celestial Monk

    If you're looking for feedback...

    A lot of your level 3 features are a bit too situational. Ideally, I think it's good design if your level 3 subclass feature changes and adjusts your playstyle just enough to remind you're not just a monk anymore, you're a monk of that subclass. Shadow monks are a little weaker on that part in combat early on, but much stronger on it outside of combat.

    But all of your level 3 subclass features are a little too situational and not even great in those situations.

    Unhallowed enemies runs into the same ranger problem of choosing the wrong enemy type for the campaign, which extends to fallen angels.
    For Guardinals, being grappled doesn't impose disadvantage, did you mean restrained? Also it's situational, and even in that one situation, really really expensive (seriously, 1 ki per attack?), though the action even when paralyzed/stunned is actually an appropriate situational ability.
    Eladrin...I know you just got feedback that it was overpowered, but imagine being a level 3 monk and spending all your ki to try and escape a grapple and failing. I just can't see it playing well, especially when you have shadow monks teleporting for free at level 6 (and if they're in light, they can cast darkness and then teleport), or other spellcasters just using misty step.
    Archeons...not sure what to think, but I wouldn't want it as a class ability. Again, too situational, when level 3 features are supposed to be more broad and class-defining. Even in the right situation, it just means you might get into a situation where monsters just ignore you and hit your teammates, and you either uselessly stand there or start fighting, breaking the spell and making it a waste of ki.
    Aasimon...it's definitely more broad, but the expense of it makes it more situational at the same time. Not really a fan.

    At level 6, divine accuracy...Does it stack with weapons that give a bonus to hit? I guess it gives a reason to get your wisdom up if you also have spells from the level 11 feature, and maybe make up for a lower dexterity score, but it's not super interesting.

    At level 11...a lot of these features are super ki-hungry. Archeons I guess get some decent crit fishing potential. It's not really exciting, but it's functional.

    Overall...I'd say I'm not a fan of design because I think it'd run into similar but slightly changes problems that the 4 element monks deal with. Very few powers to choose from, and those powers are either so situational that you'll forget you're not just a base class monk most of the time, or you'll use up all your ki in 2 turns and then spend the rest of your combat rounds until a short rest being a monk without and ki or ki-free class features.

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    Default Re: Way of the Seven Heavens: Celestial Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    If you're looking for feedback...
    Normally yes, but I don't feel like I have a clear enough grasp of what you are trying to say. A lot of your comments for the 3rd level features in particular feel like they apply if you don't attempt to adjust your playstyle to make use of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    Again, too situational, when level 3 features are supposed to be more broad and class-defining. Even in the right situation, it just means you might get into a situation where monsters just ignore you and hit your teammates, and you either uselessly stand there or start fighting, breaking the spell and making it a waste of ki.
    This assumes your teammates are within range. A problem that can be solved with bottlenecks, flanking maneuvers, and wall spells, depending on the situation. Note also that your can combine this with the dodge action (either as an action or using Patient Defense) and preparing an attack when the spell ends. So you can switch from an evasive flanking character to a sponge very quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    For Guardinals, being grappled doesn't impose disadvantage, did you mean restrained? Also it's situational, and even in that one situation, really really expensive (seriously, 1 ki per attack?), though the action even when paralyzed/stunned is actually an appropriate situational ability.
    This one I think is fair. And thanks for catching the typo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    imagine being a level 3 monk and spending all your ki to try and escape a grapple and failing. I just can't see it playing well, especially when you have shadow monks teleporting for free at level 6 (and if they're in light, they can cast darkness and then teleport), or other spellcasters just using misty step.
    The original idea was "misty step without casting," but there's nothing forcing you not to try escaping the usual way. So it becomes "all the uses of misty step but one, refreshing on a short rest."

    Note shadow monks can't see inside a darkness spell and have to both start and end in shadow. So they can do this in combat, but a vindictive DM can take away other bonuses from teleporting. Also, when the Shadow Monk gets teleportation, you get a non-ki combat bonus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    At level 11...a lot of these features are super ki-hungry. Archeons I guess get some decent crit fishing potential. It's not really exciting, but it's functional.
    They are spells using a resource you get back on a short rest. I will reduce the eladrin one though; they're only 3rd and 4th level spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    Very few powers to choose from, and those powers are either so situational that you'll forget you're not just a base class monk most of the time, or you'll use up all your ki in 2 turns and then spend the rest of your combat rounds until a short rest being a monk without and ki or ki-free class features.
    Anything that would solve you feelings this way? You mentioned the shadow monk favorably. Should I give a pair of cleric cantrips at 3rd level or something?

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    Default Re: Way of the Seven Heavens: Celestial Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    Normally yes, but I don't feel like I have a clear enough grasp of what you are trying to say. A lot of your comments for the 3rd level features in particular feel like they apply if you don't attempt to adjust your playstyle to make use of them.
    Fallen angels don't really adjust playstyle (at level 3), maybe just change target priority at best, if those enemies even come up in a campaign. Guardinals, there's not much you can change about your playstyle except try to get the attention of enemies that cast hold person, I guess?

    Eladrin, you definitely aren't using it for the movement, since you could just bonus action dash for more distance at less cost. So what's the benefit? Bypassing difficult terrain, obstacles you can't fit through, and escaping grapples. But 3 ki is a massive expense, especially early on, and for grappling it mainly boils down to being able to use your bonus action to try and escape a grapple. That's valuable, but I'm not sure it's 3 ki valuable. It's definitely not something you'll see the player use every day, it becomes a last-resort trick that they might not use for many sessions. I don't see it adjusting your common playstyle.

    Aasimon, as I said, is more broad. Kind of boring for a level 3 feature, on top of being expensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    This assumes your teammates are within range. A problem that can be solved with bottlenecks, flanking maneuvers, and wall spells, depending on the situation. Note also that your can combine this with the dodge action (either as an action or using Patient Defense) and preparing an attack when the spell ends. So you can switch from an evasive flanking character to a sponge very quickly.
    The monk doesn't control the terrain, and how often do 5 foot wide bottlenecks really happen? And if enemies have ranged attacks, they can potentially just shoot past the monk. Or hit them with AoE. Flanking maneuvers? What exactly is stopping the enemy from hitting the monk's teammates? Certainty not the monk, they can't even make opportunity attacks. It took their action and a ki point at minimum to do this, but now they've basically become nothing but a 5x5x5 half-cover providing obstacle. Only occasionally is that useful. Wall spells? How long do you have to wait your teammates even get those kinds of spells? And how does the presence of a monk that is hard to hit but isn't doing any damage help that?

    The strategies enabled are just too restrictive. Compared to open hand monk, who can make use of terrain to push people off ledges, or into lingering damage spells, or away from teammates, or onto the ground for melee teammates to follow up, or steal reactions to enable hit and runs/escapes/prevent enemy casters from being able to counter spell...sanctuary just isn't flexible enough compared to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    The original idea was "misty step without casting," but there's nothing forcing you not to try escaping the usual way. So it becomes "all the uses of misty step but one, refreshing on a short rest."

    Note shadow monks can't see inside a darkness spell and have to both start and end in shadow. So they can do this in combat, but a vindictive DM can take away other bonuses from teleporting. Also, when the Shadow Monk gets teleportation, you get a non-ki combat bonus.
    All the benefits but two, I'd say. Again, you're a monk. For 1 ki, you can bonus action dash and go further then a misty step would, and this doesn't go as far as a misty step. Anyway, the problem is really just how little use it would actually be. Imagine if on a low level caster, you could not use misty step in combat unless you hadn't cast any 1st level or higher spells that combat, and it prevented you from casting leveled spells for the rest of that combat. Sometimes it would be worth it, but most of the time it'd just leave you crippled and vulnerable.

    As you level up it would get better, but that's still a lot of offense, defense, and utility you're giving up each time you use this feature.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    They are spells using a resource you get back on a short rest. I will reduce the eladrin one though; they're only 3rd and 4th level spells.
    Aasimon and truesight...how often do you get into situations where truesight is a major boon that skips a lot of trouble? It's a spell a wizard prepares and maybe only casts once or twice in a whole campaign.

    Guardinals...the usefulness of lesser restoration is very dependent on what you fight. Having that be the only thing you get at level 11 kind of hurts. See, alchemists (artificer) get to cast lesser restoration a number of times equal to their int mod per long rest without expending spell slots at level 9. This is a situational ability, so they also throw in a more general ability to give 2d6 + int mod temporary hp to anyone who drinks their elixirs (at that point, they create 2 per long rest, and can use 1st level or higher spell slots to make more).

    4 ki for conjure things is probably fine, especially at that level. Leaves enough to still do monk things alongside your beasts.

    Fallen...I'm just not sold. Yeah, it's a 4th level spell, multiple times, on a short rest. But if the monster succeeds, you've spent your action doing nothing and 5 ki points. 5 ki points that could have been used for a flurry of blows with full stunning strikes, which in a lot of cases is probably more likely to land. And even if it doesn't, at least you've gotten a full round of damage off. Yeah, it doesn't have the potential to last an hour but, but at least you can't drop concentration. At least it's better against legendary saves.

    There's certainly some social utility, so it's not terrible, but it's just not terribly exciting either.

    Except for eladrin, these are just not spells I'd be excited to have back on a short rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    Anything that would solve you feelings this way? You mentioned the shadow monk favorably. Should I give a pair of cleric cantrips at 3rd level or something?
    I like the design of open hand and drunken monk too, but they build upon the martial arts which isn't your focus, so I keep comparing to shadow and 4 elements, as what to do and what not to do respectively, for a more caster-ish monk.

    Shadow picks up a cantrip and 4 different 2nd level spells at level 3. Literally every single one of those is pretty situational, and if you only had the ability to cast one of them as the level 3 ability for the class, it'd be weak. But combined, they cover enough different situations that it becomes a niche.

    You don't have to do it exactly like shadow monk. You could have one set of things that every celestial monk gets (cure wounds, command, bane maybe? for like 1-2 ki. +1 ki cost to use as a bonus action after an attack?), and then still choose a court service a single extra ability which is more situational. You have to enable a niche, not just a single strategy. Continue into higher levels. The ability to cast one type of spell for a lot of ki points at high level is kind of meh, but if you had a few options, suddenly you're more likely to run into a situation where you have a great tool to solve a tough problem.
    Last edited by Frozenstep; 2020-02-25 at 11:12 AM.

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    Default Re: Way of the Seven Heavens: Celestial Monk

    I think I should rework Unhallowed Enemies, based on most of your commentary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    The monk doesn't control the terrain, and how often do 5 foot wide bottlenecks really happen? And if enemies have ranged attacks, they can potentially just shoot past the monk. Or hit them with AoE. Flanking maneuvers? What exactly is stopping the enemy from hitting the monk's teammates? Certainty not the monk, they can't even make opportunity attacks. It took their action and a ki point at minimum to do this, but now they've basically become nothing but a 5x5x5 half-cover providing obstacle. Only occasionally is that useful. Wall spells? How long do you have to wait your teammates even get those kinds of spells? And how does the presence of a monk that is hard to hit but isn't doing any damage help that?

    The strategies enabled are just too restrictive. Compared to open hand monk, who can make use of terrain to push people off ledges, or into lingering damage spells, or away from teammates, or onto the ground for melee teammates to follow up, or steal reactions to enable hit and runs/escapes/prevent enemy casters from being able to counter spell...sanctuary just isn't flexible enough compared to that.
    This sounds backward.

    The monk doesn't control the terrain, and how often do 5 foot wide bottlenecks large ledges really happen? And if enemies have ranged attacks, they can potentially just shoot past the monk from the bottom. Or hit them with AoE. Flanking maneuvers moving the enemy out of the way? What exactly is stopping the enemy from hitting the monk's teammates attacking from places that isn't intended to prevent? Certainty not the monk, they can't even make opportunity attacks avoid damage themselves. It took their action and a ki point at minimum to do this, but now they've basically become nothing but a 5x5x5 half-cover providing obstacle a better target. Only occasionally is that useful. Wall Lingering damage spells? How long do you have to wait your teammates even get those kinds of spells? And how does the presence of a monk that is hard to hit but isn't doing any damage that can't waste more than half the enemies movement help that?

    The strategies enabled are just too restrictive. Compared to open hand the guardinal monk, who can make use of terrain to push people off ledges, block off movement, or into keep enemies in lingering damage spells, or away from teammates, or onto the ground for melee teammates to follow up, force the enemy to let him reach the enemy spellcaster, or steal reactions to enable hit and runs/escapes/prevent enemy casters from being able to counter spell have time to make skill check to prevent combat from breaking out at all...sanctuary bonuses on attacks just isn't flexible enough compared to that.

    Okay, moving on the serious response:

    What If I also allow the guardinal monk to spend 1 ki point to use up a hit die? That'll come up more, without allowing indefinite healing.

    I'll literally list the spell for the eladrin. Same usual restrictions, good point on monks already having part of that utility.

    I suspect at least part of the reason True Seeing isn't used so much is due to the spell's level. See Invisibility also covers part of the use, without using a high level slot. Would adding the effects of Detect Magic onto both options even it out? That way you'd be getting a third spell in addition to nerfed true seeing and buffed zone of truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    Shadow picks up a cantrip and 4 different 2nd level spells at level 3. Literally every single one of those is pretty situational, and if you only had the ability to cast one of them as the level 3 ability for the class, it'd be weak. But combined, they cover enough different situations that it becomes a niche.
    This was the goal of providing two class features at 3rd level.

    Which brings me back to the top of this comment. Both sets of court-specific options are supplemented with a large bonus against a particular enemy type; both types relatively common at all levels.

    Given this appear to have failed to create the intended effect, I think it would be easier to make Unhallowed Enemies apply in more cases. What about the following? That way the court specific options only need to slightly change up your playstyle, and the other change is you taking the time to figure out what the party is fighting before combat breaks out.

    Unhallowed Enemies
    By spending 1 minute meditating, you can call upon your count to sanction a campaign against your foes. When you do so, you must choose a creature type from the following: Aberrations, Constructs, Dragons, Elementals, Fey, Fiends, Giants, Monstrosities, Oozes, or Undead. Alternatively, you can select two races of humanoid (such as gnolls and orcs).

    Until yo complete a short or long rest, you have advantage on Wisdom (Survival) checks to track your unhallowed enemies, as well as on Intelligence checks to recall information about them. You also gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls against your chosen enemies for the duration.

    You can use this feature once, and regain it at the end of a short or long rest. At 11th level, you have enough standing that you can use this feature twice, choosing different enemies each time.

    And then for the fallen angels, you're also allowed to choose the remaining creature types.

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    Default Re: Way of the Seven Heavens: Celestial Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    I think I should rework Unhallowed Enemies, based on most of your commentary.

    This sounds backward.

    The monk doesn't control the terrain, and how often do 5 foot wide bottlenecks large ledges really happen? And if enemies have ranged attacks, they can potentially just shoot past the monk from the bottom. Or hit them with AoE. Flanking maneuvers moving the enemy out of the way? What exactly is stopping the enemy from hitting the monk's teammates attacking from places that isn't intended to prevent? Certainty not the monk, they can't even make opportunity attacks avoid damage themselves. It took their action and a ki point at minimum to do this, but now they've basically become nothing but a 5x5x5 half-cover providing obstacle a better target. Only occasionally is that useful. Wall Lingering damage spells? How long do you have to wait your teammates even get those kinds of spells? And how does the presence of a monk that is hard to hit but isn't doing any damage that can't waste more than half the enemies movement help that?

    The strategies enabled are just too restrictive. Compared to open hand the guardinal monk, who can make use of terrain to push people off ledges, block off movement, or into keep enemies in lingering damage spells, or away from teammates, or onto the ground for melee teammates to follow up, force the enemy to let him reach the enemy spellcaster, or steal reactions to enable hit and runs/escapes/prevent enemy casters from being able to counter spell have time to make skill check to prevent combat from breaking out at all...sanctuary bonuses on attacks just isn't flexible enough compared to that.
    The point about ledges and lingering damage spells wasn't that that was more likely to happen, it was in a series of several situations that combined, are something much more likely to come up and where open hand gets extra value. With just their level 3 feature, they get value out of a large variety of situations, and they don't give up any of their damage to do do it. At the very least, knocking an enemy down for melee teammates is very, very likely to produce value (unless you get unlucky with initiative counts, I guess).

    In comparison, if you have to give up an action in combat, and you spent it doing 0 damage, you better be producing some powerful tactical advantage. Like a wall. Or a significant chance to take away multiple actions from the enemy. Not something that is sometimes better, sometimes worse than taking the dodge action.

    I don't even get your point about attacked from places that isn't intended to prevent? Strange wording. Also, if an open hand really needs to avoid damage themselves...they do always have the option of stunning strike, which also doesn't interfere with their damage output or their other class abilities. Something the Archeons court can't do while keeping up sanctuary.

    This is much more flexible and valuable then giving up your action, and then your ability to attack, in order to try to become a less attractive target. How is guardinal monk blocking off anything? Wasn't this part of the discussion about Archeons? And how is sanctuary all that important for reaching an enemy spellcaster? What are you going to do there, stand and taunt them? If you start attacking and break sanctuary, you may as well have used step of the wind to get to the spellcaster. As for having time to make a skill check...whether that is useful or not is going to come down to the campaign. Whether a sanctuary even makes a difference in that skill check preventing combat is even more niche than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    Okay, moving on the serious response:

    What If I also allow the guardinal monk to spend 1 ki point to use up a hit die? That'll come up more, without allowing indefinite healing.

    I'll literally list the spell for the eladrin. Same usual restrictions, good point on monks already having part of that utility.

    I suspect at least part of the reason True Seeing isn't used so much is due to the spell's level. See Invisibility also covers part of the use, without using a high level slot. Would adding the effects of Detect Magic onto both options even it out? That way you'd be getting a third spell in addition to nerfed true seeing and buffed zone of truth.
    All decent ideas. I'd say adding a cheaper third option for detect magic evil and good and detect magic on their own. I don't feel it solves the problem with true seeing though. Yes it's a high level spell, but it's also mainly an out-of-combat one. For a wizard, that means they're giving up a spell slot that won't be available for combat for the rest of the day. For a monk, it drains them so much they'll probably bagder the party into taking a short rest after using it.

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    This was the goal of providing two class features at 3rd level.

    Which brings me back to the top of this comment. Both sets of court-specific options are supplemented with a large bonus against a particular enemy type; both types relatively common at all levels.

    Given this appear to have failed to create the intended effect, I think it would be easier to make Unhallowed Enemies apply in more cases. What about the following? That way the court specific options only need to slightly change up your playstyle, and the other change is you taking the time to figure out what the party is fighting before combat breaks out.

    Unhallowed Enemies
    By spending 1 minute meditating, you can call upon your count to sanction a campaign against your foes. When you do so, you must choose a creature type from the following: Aberrations, Constructs, Dragons, Elementals, Fey, Fiends, Giants, Monstrosities, Oozes, or Undead. Alternatively, you can select two races of humanoid (such as gnolls and orcs).

    Until yo complete a short or long rest, you have advantage on Wisdom (Survival) checks to track your unhallowed enemies, as well as on Intelligence checks to recall information about them. You also gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls against your chosen enemies for the duration.

    You can use this feature once, and regain it at the end of a short or long rest. At 11th level, you have enough standing that you can use this feature twice, choosing different enemies each time.

    And then for the fallen angels, you're also allowed to choose the remaining creature types.
    That works.
    Last edited by Frozenstep; 2020-02-26 at 11:24 AM.

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    Default Re: Way of the Seven Heavens: Celestial Monk

    Note that mos of the first indented section wasn't particularly serious. I'm looking to match the existing subclasses in total, so the option certainly shouldn't match the open hand monk by itself. Will add the rest in.

    Given there's other bonuses, I think there should be a slightly increased cost, and still don't see how the benefits come up much more rarely.

    Spoiler: Continuation of previous point of disagreement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    (unless you get unlucky with initiative counts, I guess).
    Can be manipulated when facing multiple enemies, but this is heavily random.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    Or a significant chance to take away multiple actions from the enemy. Not something that is sometimes better, sometimes worse than taking the dodge action.
    Can be done with this, and stacks with the dodge action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    I don't even get your point about attacked from places that isn't intended to prevent? Strange wording.
    As was the original, in which you take two different scenarios and say being able to flank doesn't help you be a meat shield.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    And how is sanctuary all that important for reaching an enemy spellcaster?
    Depends on the table, but my spellcasters typically have bodyguards. If the guards are engaging the front line PCs in one place (as I expect the frontline PCs to be built to do), both damaging and control spells (the spellcaster's own hold person) are less viable against you. At which point you've gotten what you need out the spell, and have no requirement to keep it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    What are you going to do there, stand and taunt them? If you start attacking and break sanctuary, you may as well have used step of the wind to get to the spellcaster.
    Again, this stacks with the ability you mention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    As for having time to make a skill check...whether that is useful or not is going to come down to the campaign. Whether a sanctuary even makes a difference in that skill check preventing combat is even more niche than that.
    As are several of your examples for the open hand. it was in a series of several situations that combined, are something much more likely to come up, after all. And it isn't like you can't choose a different option for a hack and slash campaign where attempting parley is useless.

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    Default Re: Way of the Seven Heavens: Celestial Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    Note that mos of the first indented section wasn't particularly serious. I'm looking to match the existing subclasses in total, so the option certainly shouldn't match the open hand monk by itself. Will add the rest in.

    Given there's other bonuses, I think there should be a slightly increased cost, and still don't see how the benefits come up much more rarely.
    I was just noting how nice the design is that open hand has a feature that is useful in a variety of situations, and felt it would be a nice way to compare a feature I felt was far more limited in design. I felt like that feature needed to be something that approached the level of open hand's "useful almost all the time", because before, the other feature was basically going to be non-functional like 80%+ more of the time unless you know what kind of campaign you're getting into and it focuses on those enemies. But you've changed the other feature to be much more widely applicable, so it's no longer as important, the court feature can become the niche ability and the need to make it more flexible isn't really there.

    I still feel it's very niche. Even with your spellcaster with bodyguard example, I feel the ki is better spent on stunning strike so the spellcaster doesn't get to cast anything. I'd much expect a con save to be harder for a spellcaster rather than a wisdom saving throw (which wizards, clerics, and druids get. Only for sorcerers is wisdom the better bet, until you start looking at half casters I guess). If you can't get close enough that turn, then yeah, sanctuary looks attractive to prevent a hold person from putting you in a bad situation, but it just means the spellcaster might fail to cast it on you...and so they might just turn around and re-target it on someone on your frontline. That's not the kind of value I'd hope for when the situation that my feature was supposed to be good in comes up. It also kind of depends on the spellcaster not using an AoE option. But since you have another solid feature backing this up, it's not a big deal.

    Is the increased cost thing about true seeing? It basically comes down to a quality of life change. It's not that important, it's just one of those things like a party waking up from a long rest, the warlock casting a 5th level hex on a rat and killing it, then insisting on a short rest to get their spell back while they maintain concentration on hex, so they can enter combat with full spell slots and hex still ready to apply to a new target. The ability to ritual cast it somehow to make it usable outside of combat without needing to bother the party for a short rest could easily solve this.

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    Default Re: Way of the Seven Heavens: Celestial Monk

    Going mostly into the theory, anything you've spent more time coming up with uses for "has a feature that is useful in a variety of situations," as compared to something you're only looking at now. One use I forgot to mention is reducing damage from traps, for instance. It isn't as if I'm giving sanctuary by itself.

    I also seem to find the Favored Enemy comes up more often than people I speak to online. Even if the session zero didn't help the ranger choose a relevant enemy type, you can then bias the side quests to have more of whatever the ranger chose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    If you can't get close enough that turn, then yeah, sanctuary looks attractive to prevent a hold person from putting you in a bad situation, but it just means the spellcaster might fail to cast it on you...and so they might just turn around and re-target it on someone on your frontline.
    If they re-target your front line, that's usually what they were going to do anyway. But they're going to have to make a lot of concentration saves shortly; someone with a lot of attacks is standing between them and their bodyguards now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenstep View Post
    Is the increased cost thing about true seeing? It basically comes down to a quality of life change. It's not that important, it's just one of those things like a party waking up from a long rest, the warlock casting a 5th level hex on a rat and killing it, then insisting on a short rest to get their spell back while they maintain concentration on hex, so they can enter combat with full spell slots and hex still ready to apply to a new target. The ability to ritual cast it somehow to make it usable outside of combat without needing to bother the party for a short rest could easily solve this.
    I was referring to the court features having a ki cost the open hand monk doesn't need to pay. However for true seeing I expect the party to agree to "I'll take a short rest and then make sure we haven't missed something behind an illusion while you load up the main pile of loot," given the effect lasts an hour. Although I'm used to "the party always takes an hour getting ready after the long rest," so I wouldn't have an issue if it did work like Hex.

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    Default Re: Way of the Seven Heavens: Celestial Monk

    Quote Originally Posted by sandmote View Post
    Going mostly into the theory, anything you've spent more time coming up with uses for "has a feature that is useful in a variety of situations," as compared to something you're only looking at now. One use I forgot to mention is reducing damage from traps, for instance. It isn't as if I'm giving sanctuary by itself.

    I also seem to find the Favored Enemy comes up more often than people I speak to online. Even if the session zero didn't help the ranger choose a relevant enemy type, you can then bias the side quests to have more of whatever the ranger chose.

    If they re-target your front line, that's usually what they were going to do anyway. But they're going to have to make a lot of concentration saves shortly; someone with a lot of attacks is standing between them and their bodyguards now.

    I was referring to the court features having a ki cost the open hand monk doesn't need to pay. However for true seeing I expect the party to agree to "I'll take a short rest and then make sure we haven't missed something behind an illusion while you load up the main pile of loot," given the effect lasts an hour. Although I'm used to "the party always takes an hour getting ready after the long rest," so I wouldn't have an issue if it did work like Hex.
    Reducing damage from traps? Kind of assumes you knew about it, otherwise the spell wouldn't be up. And if you knew about it, did you really not have a way to trigger it from a distance? Or disarm it? And ok, you knew about it, no way to trigger from a distance, and you don't have a familiar to throw at it...is 1 ki point for 2.5 average health really worth it? Especially if you don't know if the trap might also draw in enemies, and leave you low on ki for a fight? Now, of course maybe you just short rest afterwards and get your ki back, but depending on how a DM runs things, a short rest is either a setback on a doomclock, a chance for a random encounter, or free. It's just a lot of "at best, there's a little bit of value here. At worst, it's useless" going on there.

    See, when I was initially looking at it, you only got one "favored enemy" up until level 11. That's one creature type out of how many? Biasing side quests will come down to the DM, but even then is every side quest going to be fiends fiends fiends or undead undead undead? So when I looked to the other level 3 features, I was hoping to see something that would come up almost every single combat, or at least several times per adventuring day, to make up for the fact that your other feature may see several sessions go by without being useful. Now the opposite situation is true, unhallowed enemies can certainly come up several times per adventuring day (unless the DM is just spinning the wheel on what they throw at you), so it's not important to need the court feature to be used so often.

    My point with re-targeting the front line is that even in that situation (a situation that already has several assumptions. You can't reach them with your movement, even if you bonus action dash rather then use it on sanctuary? The enemy spellcaster only has hold person to deal with you and isn't just going to throw an AoE? And you can't find a place along the way to take full cover to accomplish basically the same thing?), it wasn't the kind of improvement I'd be excited about as my main level 3 feature, not when it has such a high opportunity cost to even use in the first place. Now that it's not a main level 3 feature, it's fine.

    For true seeing...meh, maybe it's just me, but it just feels a bit clunky as it does now. An 11th level class feature you basically use at the end of a dungeon to find more loot? Or every time the party suspects an illusion but can't verify with a touch, they resign themselves to losing an hour? Basically, if you made it a 1 or 10 minute cast time for 0 ki cost, what is lost? Not much is truly gained, but from the player perspective it encourages them to use it more often. It's not really a balance concern but just a user experience one (which is, of course, arbitrary and different for each person, yet still something we can consider).

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