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2020-02-26, 03:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2019
Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
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2020-02-26, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
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Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
So looking at it in the abstract and (hopefully) bypassing any emotional issues with an unkillable NPC. As a DM, you have a plot of some sort in mind. How do you keep your players on-plot without violating their agency? An age-old question to be sure.
A more common example might be that you set up your scenario so that one particular NPC has the bit of info the PCs need in order to proceed. The players manage to routinely avoid interacting with that PC. Behind the scenes, as the DM, do you switch things around so another NPC has that bit of info? Is that violating player agency because, looking back on it, they were ultimately forced to encounter that information? Or, as long as you never tell the players you made the switch and they have no reason to think you did, is their agency intact because they believe it to be intact?
Same issue if your players steer you off course entirely, so you "recycle" the content they avoided into the content they encountered. I had a great haunted dungeon set up in the south. The players head north, completely oblivious to the existence of the dungeon. I move the dungeon to the north. Railroad?
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2020-02-26, 05:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
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- Avatar By Astral Seal!
Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
It depends. Giving PCs info I would not consider railroading, assuming they are free to act on it or not as they please.
For the second example, it depends WHY they went north. If they knew the dragon was south, then encountering the dragon is railroading. If they knew that the dwarves at war are north, then the dragon is also railroading. But if they just randomly went north because north is cool, with no expectations of what to encounter, then I would not consider it railroading, just good allocation of resources.I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2020-02-26, 08:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2019
Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
I think that's a different problem. If there's something the PCs need to do to advance the plot, and they keep not doing it, that suggests to me that the players either don't understand what they need to do, or don't care about whatever you think the plot is. In either case, I think that reflects a deeper problem with what you've been doing as a DM. Why aren't the players looking for the information the NPC has? Even if they're avoiding him, there must be some other way to find out what they need. Sticking something else in their path is a stopgap at best.
Same issue if your players steer you off course entirely, so you "recycle" the content they avoided into the content they encountered. I had a great haunted dungeon set up in the south. The players head north, completely oblivious to the existence of the dungeon. I move the dungeon to the north. Railroad?
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2020-02-26, 10:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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- Dallas, TX
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Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
That's not JNAProduction. You're quoting from my Rules for DMs.
"14. The players do not have the right to screw up the game. They do have the right to screw up your plot. Don’t confuse the two.
a. Do not give them a set of options that includes screwing up the game."
If anybody is interested, you can find the full set here.
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2020-02-27, 06:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2015
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- Mid-Rohan
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2020-02-27, 08:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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- Dallas, TX
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2020-02-28, 05:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2018
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2020-02-28, 11:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
Well, that's the meat of it, right? Here's a little word for you - consent.
When I go to see a stage musician, I know he's going to deceive me and trick me. That's what I'm signing up for! I know it's not "real" magic, and I want to see how he can cleverly deceive me. And since real magic doesn't exist, I interpret all statements to the contrary as puffery.
When I sign up for a game? That may or may not be the case.
Since games without railroading can and do exist, then I should be able to trust that if you saying you're running a game without railroading that you will in fact do so. (And I would argue that, implicitly, offering me choices in a game implies that they are meaningful choices).
If you tell me up front that you're running Adventure Path X, and we're gonna have to stay on it, then I can accept that and choose to join it or not.
It's that simple. If a game is good, and some railroading is okay, then the GM should be able to be open about that. I mean, I'm horrendously anti-railroading and I'm in an Adventure Path-based game right now becuase I want to play with the people involved.
To use an analogy, if you offer me Dragon's Blood as a drink, I know there are no dragons. So if you bring me a mixture of juices and stuff I won't be upset.
But, if you offer me apple juice and give me orange juice instead, I will not be happy. Especially if you insist that it's still really really apple juice."Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"
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2020-02-28, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
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2020-02-28, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
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- Avatar By Astral Seal!
Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
Not being caught doesn’t mean it’s fine.
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2020-02-28, 12:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
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2020-02-28, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
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- Avatar By Astral Seal!
Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2020-02-28, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
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Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
Of course I do. But very few players have a zero-tolerance policy for any form of DM fudging whatsoever. And having an unkillable NPC is fundamentally no different than, say, having a gazer specifically target one PC with a particular eye beam (the gazer stat block says it's random). It's just a difference in severity. Most players wouldn't get too upset about the gazer thing, probably because most wouldn't even realize the DM "cheated" by deliberately selecting. The unkillable NPC raises flags because it's so obvious what's going on.
Switching analogies for a minute. Most people don't mind watching a movie and getting excited or worried for the hero, or loathing the villain, or being scared by the monster. You're being completely, utterly manipulated into feeling that through unmitigated contrivance by the writer (and actors, etc.). You only mind when the manipulation is clumsy enough for you to notice it. I think that's why people of similar aptitude and intelligence can have such differing opinions about the same story. One happened to notice the contrivances while the other didn't. I don't know about you, but the more I've learned about how storytelling works, the less I like stories. I mean the actual stories I read or watch or whatever, not stories as a concept. That's because I've become more aware of the various tricks writers use to manipulate. It's rare that a movie or show or book really surprises. Maybe I'm just getting old. Pretty soon I'll start rambling pointlessly...
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2020-02-28, 03:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
Leaving the ethical aspects out of it, the problem with fudging, hidden railroading and such is that often the players notice a lot more than the game master gives them credit for. They just, for some reason, accept it without saying a thing.
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2020-02-28, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
Yeah. Breaking agreements isn't okay "if you don't get caught".
My preference is that if the GM is going to do that, they tell me. Doesn't mean they have to say on each occasion it happens, just "yeah, I will do this as part of the game on occasion."
I see literally no downside to this.
100%. There's a semi-dysfunctional game style where the GM pretends they're not railroading, and the players pretend not to notice while they're fully aware of what's going on.
I've literally had people in games tell me "come on, let's just start the fight, it's obvious that's what the GM has prepped"."Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"
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2020-02-28, 06:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
Yes. And some people don't want games with elves. Some people don't want to travel to other planes, or to go dungeon diving. I had one player who really didn't want to face giant spiders. There was a time when I only wanted to face traditional European monsters, not made-up D&D creatures like owlbears and beholders. People have lots of different preferences, and that's fine.
If people don't want a game with elves, or spiders, or whatever, that's fine. They just need to realize that these elements are in the actual rules of the game, and therefore the default assumption is that they will (or at least might) exist. If you don't want to play a game with elves (dungeons, planes, spiders, etc.), then it is your responsibility to tell the DM you want him or her to leave out certain parts of the game.
The DM cannot guess which aspect of this vast and sprawling game you don't want.
And if the DM's scenario requires them, then maybe that isn't the game for you. And there's nothing wrong with that, either.
The DM's power to overrule the rulebooks is written in the rulebooks, in every version of D&D I've played. It is therefore the default assumption. If you want the DM to leave out this part of the rules, then it is your responsibility to bring it up to the DM. It isn't the DM's responsibility to say, "Oh, by the way, I'm warning you that I play all by the rules."
Again, the DM cannot guess which aspect of this vast and sprawling game you don't want.Last edited by Jay R; 2020-02-28 at 08:07 PM.
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2020-02-28, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
Because RPGs are built around a series of contradictory and absurd conceits that only function with direct rule intervention?
Why does the Demon Arshablabble only appear to destroy the world by eating the sun when the party either is high enough level to beat it or find a way around it? Why are monsters still in existence if herds of archers one shot them and they are supposed to be rare? How is it that the party meets each other when they are all at the same level, and are conveniently only racist enough for comedic purposes and not actual night murders? How come scry and die is okay for the party to use and not enemies? Or Disjunction? How come in a world with so many monsters that have mind control you almost never hear "And then it sat nearby using Greater Invisibility and took control of you all permanently, the end?"
People let it go because the game needs it to function, its why there is a Dungeon Master at all.
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2020-02-28, 08:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2019
Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
But he can ask. And a good DM does. And it's not like these things are subtle. "I don't like it when you make my choices meaningless by fudging results you don't like" is not some super weird thing that no DM could possibly anticipate. It's kind of fundamental to the whole notion of a game where players make choices that advance the story. If you can't figure out that people who signed up for that don't like it when their choices instead don't advance the story, that's a you problem to some non-trivial degree.
Because the other times someone else dealt with it? This is like asking "why did JFK only have to deal with the Cuban Missile Crisis when he was president, and not when he was a student at Harvard". Not every single thing that happens in the world happens to the players.
Why are monsters still in existence if herds of archers one shot them and they are supposed to be rare?
How is it that the party meets each other when they are all at the same level, and are conveniently only racist enough for comedic purposes and not actual night murders?
How come scry and die is okay for the party to use and not enemies?
Or Disjunction?
How come in a world with so many monsters that have mind control you almost never hear "And then it sat nearby using Greater Invisibility and took control of you all permanently, the end?"
It's actually not that hard to make a TTRPG where the mechanics of the game have good in-world explanations. Earthdawn did it when Clinton was president. It's certainly not the only virtue a system can have, but if you think it's impossible to explain why there are monsters or heroes or dungeons or adventures without having to directly appeal to "that's how it has to be for the game to work", that's a sign of the limits of your horizons, not any fundamental constraint of the medium.
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2020-02-29, 02:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
First of all, everything you said is highly dependent on the game you're playing. There are plenty of games out there that don't run into this sort of issue.
Second, that's okay. As long as you don't pretend that only a bad GM would let their players realise that's what's going on, I have no problem with anything you've said.
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2020-03-02, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
Last edited by kyoryu; 2020-03-02 at 11:25 AM.
"Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"
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2020-03-02, 12:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2015
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Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
Ok, so I've been watching Critical Role lately. I know people have various opinions about it but I find it entertaining. Anyway, in the most recent episode (campaign 2, episode 13) Mercer pulls something.
Spoiler: Just in case anyone's watching...
During an escape through the sewers, the Nein come across a drow carrying an object of obvious power. Mercer has the drow attack fairly aggressively, but the party prevails and manages to subdue him. Caleb casts identify on the object (a softly glowing orb) but it's largely beyond his comprehension. While the drow is subdued, Mercer gives Liam an opportunity to re-examine the orb and implies he could maybe learn something if he pushed himself, but Liam declines. It's pretty clear Mercer's future plans hinge on the party obtaining the orb possibly using it in some way.
The Nein actually negotiate with the drow due to some nice rolls, and even let him go, taking the orb with him. A few moments later, the crownsguard intercept and kill the drow, and the party was basically ushered out into the street where they see the guards heading off with it. The Nein decide they want the orb now (flabbergasting Beau who didn't know why they didn't just take it when they had it) and go through another series of solid rolls to use illusions and persuasion to get it away from the crownsguard.
My impression during watching it was that Mercer really wanted them to take the orb, and would have likely kept putting it into their path until they did. I wouldn't be surprised that had they kept avoiding it, Caleb would have woken up one morning with it in his bed, or hovering outside the window, or even develop a pathological need to possess it. I'm curious what people's thoughts are on how that kind of thing affects player agency.
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2020-03-02, 04:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
Spoiler: Critical role discussionI don't see your conclusion that reasonable. They generally ignored the orb as fluff, then Mercer followed up by highlighting "someone thinks this orb is important." At this point the group decides "hey, someone else thinks it's important, we should too."
That's different from "Caleb would have woken up one morning with it in his bed, or hovering outside the window, or even develop a pathological need to possess it."
If the conclusion you went to was instead "some old archivist approaches the party to tell them about the Orb of Plot Relevance that has come into possession of the Crownsguard, and how it should not remain in their hands," that's something I could see happening.
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2020-03-02, 05:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
Spoiler: More CR
I'm more talking about the approach a DM might take to keep putting a McGuffin in front of the party until they eventually give in and bite. A kind of soft railroading, some might say.
Not really very different from my earlier example of moving the haunted castle. In theory the party might have more say if it's a specific object that keeps getting dangled but if it keeps getting dangled until they take it, how different is it really?
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2020-03-02, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2019
Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
Well, the campaign ends at some point. If you can get to that point without ever doing the haunted castle adventure, I don't think you were railroaded. I might consider it a little lazy of the DM to keep recycling a plot hook if the PCs aren't interested, but as long as the players always have a real choice about what to do, I don't think it's railroading to have the same choice show up repeatedly. Depending on the specifics, it may even be a good thing -- if there's no reason for a plot hook to expire, it should still be there if the party comes back in a month or a year.
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2020-03-03, 03:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
Spoiler: Further on CR
I watched an interview Matt gave regarding that, he wanted to give them a few opportunities to get the object, but he admitted he was a bit perplexed that they let the thing go in the first place. But he was ready to just kinda rewrite what he had planned if they decided not get it. Showing the crownsguard grab the orb and walk off with it was intended in his mind as a cut-scene telling the players they had lost it, but he allowed them to basically double back on that part since it allowed him to go through with his plans as originally intended.
There's a bit of a difference between railroading the players somewhere and dropping heavy hints at a preferred route, imo. Allow the players to make their own decisions, but like Matt, leave it open to be grabbed again.
I don't think Matt would have gone as far as make it appear with Caleb or hover outside of his window given what it ends up being, but he certainly would have given them plenty of opportunities to find it again on their journeys, but that'd be stuff as of yet unwritten.
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2020-03-03, 06:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2015
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Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
Fairly different, actually. Going back to the original metaphor of a Railroad, the idea that the original plot hook just hangs around in easy reach until you're ready to pick it up doesn't much feel like you're trapped on rails. It may seem contrived and the players may feel compelled by honor to humor the DM, but that doesn't make it a railroad.
You're in the neighborhood of the railroad vs quantum ogre question, which is an interesting discussion, but one we've already gone into rather large depths about.
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2020-03-03, 10:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
I'd also like to point out that railroading isn't bad. It's not bad to have a prewritten plot that the players are expected to follow.
It might not be how some people prefer to play, but that's okay, too. Some people juggle geese.
The only issue I have is when a GM does have a prewritten plot, and does expect players to engage in it, but claims that that is not the case.
The interesting thing about these conversations is that not only do they miss that bit, but they also seem to often hyper-focus on the individual action, while ignoring the context. Reusing encounters is fine, and not railroading. It can be overly lazy if done too much, but whatever. Putting a specific encounter wherever the player goes so that they can get the vital next thing to push them along your plot is railroading. And that's okay, or not, depending on the group."Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"
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2020-03-03, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2005
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- Toronto, Canada
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Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
Yep, all of this.
With regards to the CR-specific example, I would expect mild railroading in Critical Role, because Critical Role isn't just a roleplaying game. It's a show. It needs to be fun for the players, and it also needs to be entertaining for the audience. All of the players are aware of this, and are taking actions based on both their own desire to have fun and their desire to create a compelling narrative and interesting show for outside viewers.
This is true of most AP podcasts, twitch streams, and the like. The GM is going to be designing a storyline that will be interesting, the players are going to be making choices based on that outside information. That necessarily is likely to involve a bit more planning and creating of railroads, because you aren't going to want to spend an hour messing around with a minor NPC tangent that is only funny to you and your closest friends, or setting up a complicated shopping plan to save 5 GP, or whatever. A lot of things that are fun to do aren't fun to watch, and Critical Role needs to be both.If you like my thoughts, you'll love my writing. Visit me at www.mishahandman.com.
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2020-03-03, 06:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2019
Re: Venting about Metagaming and Railroading
This is just playing an unhelpful semantic game. When people complain about railroading, they're not saying "it's always bad for any game to ever have a pre-determined plot". They're complaining about the DM forcing players down a pre-determined plot when the players expect to be given meaningful choices. If you want to run people through Red Hand of Doom, Rise of the Runelords, Dawn of the Artifacts, or some pre-defined adventure of your own design, and you get your group to agree to it, more power to you. But that is not what anyone is talking about when they complain about railroading.