OOTS #1190-1192 - The Multi-Strip Discussion Thread

[Schroeswald]

Eugene was, what, seventy-odd when he finally died? And of all that time we've seen a few minutes of what he did while he was alive, and maybe a little bit more of what he did post-mortem. I think it's rather unfair to base your opinion of his entire life on those few snippets. I'm pretty sure there's also a strip (I forget which one) where Roy says something like "Damn you!" to his father, and Roy's Archon says, "We're beyond the point where that's realistically possible" or words to that effect--which implies that anything Eugene does while hanging around on the cloud doesn't affect his final afterlife destination.

I don’t think he’s gonna be damned though. I’ll place a bet, let’s say for one quatloo, that he ends up in the TN afterlife. But we have seen snippets of his life throughout quite a few years, and he was always a jerk and never (to me) seemed particularly Lawful. I stand by the fact that his opinions since his death have been very much not Good, and honestly I would love the final thing we see of him to discover that Roy fulfilling the blood oath doesn’t mean he gets to Celestia.

[Fyraltari]

Eugene was, what, seventy-odd when he finally died? And of all that time we've seen a few minutes of what he did while he was alive, and maybe a little bit more of what he did post-mortem. I think it's rather unfair to base your opinion of his entire life on those few snippets.

Except that those snippets include killing his second child through neglect and refusing to take the lessons form that to become a better father. Eugene is at his core a selfish man, he isn't cruel or cowardly but his own arrogance blinds him to his flaws which stunts his growth. In that way his failing is the same as Miko. He'd rather blame the universe for his bad situation rather than admit to his mistake.

We'll only ever see but a few moments of any character's life, we judge them on that and that's okay, because fictionnal charcaters are not, cannot be as complexed as human beings. If everything that you show of a character is meant to not be representative of who that character is then you are a terrible storyteller and I don't think that describes The Giant at all. Everything we see of Eugene shows hims to be a self-absorbed jerk who's Good alignment seems to be borderline accidental and that's because that's who he fundamentally is.

[Schroeswald]

Except that those snippets include killing his second child through neglect and refusing to take the lessons form that to become a better father. Eugene is at his core a selfish man, he isn't cruel or cowardly but his own arrogance blinds him to his flaws which stunts his growth. In that way his failing is the same as Miko. He'd rather blame the universe for his bad situation rather than admit to his mistake.

We'll only ever see but a few moments of any character's life, we judge them on that and that's okay, because fictionnal charcaters are not, cannot be as complexed as human beings. If everything that you show of a character is meant to not be representative of who that character is then you are a terrible storyteller and I don't think that describes The Giant at all. Everything we see of Eugene shows hims to be a self-absorbed jerk who's Good alignment seems to be borderline accidental and that's because that's who he fundamentally is.

I feel like this is everything my reply should have been, even though it wasn't at all, so I agree with this completely.
I've done this a lot, I think, I'm pretty sure I've done it before with Fyraltari too.

[Wraithfighter]

...what struck me about the whole "Is Julia Dead?!" fake-out (a good and well used one, I should note, since its immediately resolved) is the question: If Julia knew everything that Roy knows about the Snarl, might she kill herself?

Not a suicide-out-of-despair thing, rather in a "the three ways this will go is either the Gods will destroy the planet, killing everyone, the Snarl will break loose and devour all of our souls, utterly destroying everyone... or my big brother manages to kill the super-powerful Lich by hitting him with a sword" sense. Nothing she can do herself to influence the outcome, cash out her soul, get safely to the clouds, besides, if the dumb fighter can do that, it'll probably be thanks to a spellcaster that could resurrect her later, and the big softy totally would anyway...

It's not suicide, it's leaving for a much safer location as a refugee!

Honestly, I'm wondering if this is where things might be going. Maybe Eugene told her, and she's using this uber spell to make sure daddy dearest isn't bull****ting her or something...

[The_Weirdo]

...what struck me about the whole "Is Julia Dead?!" fake-out (a good and well used one, I should note, since its immediately resolved) is the question: If Julia knew everything that Roy knows about the Snarl, might she kill herself?

Not a suicide-out-of-despair thing, rather in a "the three ways this will go is either the Gods will destroy the planet, killing everyone, the Snarl will break loose and devour all of our souls, utterly destroying everyone... or my big brother manages to kill the super-powerful Lich by hitting him with a sword" sense. Nothing she can do herself to influence the outcome, cash out her soul, get safely to the clouds, besides, if the dumb fighter can do that, it'll probably be thanks to a spellcaster that could resurrect her later, and the big softy totally would anyway...

It's not suicide, it's leaving for a much safer location as a refugee!

Honestly, I'm wondering if this is where things might be going. Maybe Eugene told her, and she's using this uber spell to make sure daddy dearest isn't bull****ting her or something...

That would be amazingly Neutral and smart on her part,

[CriticalFailure]

Most fiction that has concrete afterlives and stuff doesn't adjust the social attitudes towards suicide to reflect it because it is too jarring compared to how we see it in the real world.

[danielxcutter]

Eugene and Julia are very similar (and Roy very much agrees), and since Julia is TN, I think Eugene probably is, too.

He's not a horrible person like Tarquin or Xykon, but I do think he's a bit of a selfish wrinkled prune; being Evil and being a total asswipe are not the same thing.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Maybe Eugene told her, and she's using this uber spell to make sure daddy dearest isn't bull****ting her or something...

Three things going against that. First, we are explicitly told that Warthog's has wards to prevent spirits like Eugene from coming near the place. Second, in one of the prequel books Eugene is told he can only communicate with his eldest living child. Third, Rich is not going to write a story where teen suicide occurs, period.

[factotum]

Eugene is at his core a selfish man, he isn't cruel or cowardly but his own arrogance blinds him to his flaws which stunts his growth. In that way his failing is the same as Miko. He'd rather blame the universe for his bad situation rather than admit to his mistake.

None of which is incompatible with a Lawful Good alignment. Eugene spends years on each of his projects, and is single-mindedly devoted to them while that is the case--as his wife pointed out, while his "project" was his marriage he kept her very happy. He eventually changed to a different project, but even so, that sort of single-minded dedication to a single aim is totally Lawful. As for Good, there you might have more of an argument, maybe, but I don't think we've seen him doing anything actively Evil (with the possible exception of burning the Deva's message rather than giving it to Roy as intended).

I've said it before, but I think a large part of the problem we have with Eugene is that we see almost all of his actions in relation to Roy, and they have an extremely antagonistic relationship--which is nothing to do with their alignment. I'm willing to bet if you just looked at the scenes where Roy interacts with his dad, with no context or history from the rest of the comic, you'd be struggling to class Roy as LG either!

[Fyraltari]

None of which is incompatible with a Lawful Good alignment. Eugene spends years on each of his projects, and is single-mindedly devoted to them while that is the case--as his wife pointed out, while his "project" was his marriage he kept her very happy. He eventually changed to a different project, but even so, that sort of single-minded dedication to a single aim is totally Lawful. As for Good, there you might have more of an argument, maybe, but I don't think we've seen him doing anything actively Evil (with the possible exception of burning the Deva's message rather than giving it to Roy as intended).

I've said it before, but I think a large part of the problem we have with Eugene is that we see almost all of his actions in relation to Roy, and they have an extremely antagonistic relationship--which is nothing to do with their alignment. I'm willing to bet if you just looked at the scenes where Roy interacts with his dad, with no context or history from the rest of the comic, you'd be struggling to class Roy as LG either!

I don’t give a flying flamingo about alignment. Eugene killed his son and refuses to be better than that. That is fundamentally wrong.

Roy in DCF is very much like Eugene: dismissive of others’ needs and’ wants as well as callous and abrasive. The difference is that Roy is striving to be better and had bettered himself.

Also Eugene and Roy’s Interactions without context only involve Roy reacting to blatant emotional abuse (like Eugene outright stating to his face that his entire existence is a mistake) and trying several times to mend their relationship. Oh and it also involves one of them advocating for the end of the world because it would solve his immediate problems, son no Roy is still leagues ahead of father dear without context.

[The_Weirdo]

I've said it before, but I think a large part of the problem we have with Eugene is that we see almost all of his actions in relation to Roy, and they have an extremely antagonistic relationship--which is nothing to do with their alignment. I'm willing to bet if you just looked at the scenes where Roy interacts with his dad, with no context or history from the rest of the comic, you'd be struggling to class Roy as LG either!

Somehow, I think "Haw, haw, you died while solving a problem I laid at your feat because you aren't a Wizard like me!" is quite a bit worse, in terms of abuse, to "You're a wrinkled old bitter twit, father".

That said, disregarding the context completely, we've never seen Eugene being anything but dismissive of Roy. Anything Roy dishes out at Eugene tends to be in reaction to that. Besides, we do, in fact, have the whole context, or at least the whole context that should matter to the reader. At least with regards to Roy, his clearly Lawful Good son, Eugene reacted indignantly when he learned his son would go into Celestia because he died trying to fulfill a blood oath he, Eugene, laid at his feet. Think about it for a moment, the man is angry because his son won't suffer for something he, the man, did.

Oh and it also involves one of them advocating for the end of the world because it would solve his immediate problems, son no Roy is still leagues ahead of father dear without context.

The problems he created for himself, mind you. He'd sentence countless dwarven souls to Hel because he doesn't want to be bored and can't take responsibility. That does not Lawful Good make.

I don’t give a flying flamingo

This isn't a political commentary, I just want to say that "I don't give a flying flamingo" is quite awesome as a dismissive remark.

[Lord Torath]

This isn't a political commentary, I just want to say that "I don't give a flying flamingo" is quite awesome as a dismissive remark.

Also: Gobble freakin' Gobble!

I loved Roy and Belkar in 1190. Has Roy ever messed with Belkar in such a way before?

[BisectedBrioche]

Also: Gobble freakin' Gobble!

I loved Roy and Belkar in 1190. Has Roy ever messed with Belkar in such a way before?

He's been happy to manipulate Belkar's behaviour (e.g. get him intentionally deafened so he can't be charmed, use reverse psychology to get him to do what he wants), but he clearly needed a bit of in vino veritas to actually use that to mess with Belkar for the sake of it.

[mjasghar]

Eugene’s attitude to Roy because Roy wanted to be a fighter may have something to do with how Eugene’s own father not supporting him when he wanted to be a wizard

[The_Weirdo]

Eugene’s attitude to Roy because Roy wanted to be a fighter may have something to do with how Eugene’s own father not supporting him when he wanted to be a wizard

Then, and I say this as a Wizard-class main, he should have used that beautiful mind with which Wizards are usually gifted to avoid repeating the pattern. Because I'm fairly certain that the little air genasi Roy will have with Celia will be supported by the two, no matter what class they choose, not the least of it because Roy appreciates his entire party for the role they play, unlike Eugene, who doesn't seem to grasp that, without a frontline fighter, he's dead. Well, was. Would have been before. Etc.. That difference is, indeed, one of the main things that make Roy a good person and Eugene a man that deserves eternity in the Outlands, at best.

[Bedinsis]

At least with regards to Roy, his clearly Lawful Good son, Eugene reacted indignantly when he learned his son would go into Celestia because he died trying to fulfill a blood oath he, Eugene, laid at his feet.

Are you talking about his reaction before or after the deva laid out why Roy's case was different? If the former, I think this matter has already been discussed, if the latter, I read that as him slowly realizing that the case is different for Roy yet caught in the moment still trying to offer something to say.

Think about it for a moment, the man is angry because his son won't suffer for something he, the man, did.

After the deva had laid out the case, he no longer was angry, merely chocked.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I'm willing to bet if you just looked at the scenes where Roy interacts with his dad, with no context or history from the rest of the comic, you'd be struggling to class Roy as LG either!

Not much of a bet. We already know from the whole life review process that the deva seriously considered chucking Roy in the Not LG bin.

[mjasghar]

Assuming Roy does have kids then yes he may well be more supportive
But that’s on the basis of having seen all sides of the equation and clearly having a higher Wisdom score
Eugene isn’t perfect but LG doesn’t ramens you have to be perfect
Indeed, Good doesn’t mean nice either
Malack was very nice and polite yet he was definitely evil

[The_Weirdo]

Assuming Roy does have kids then yes he may well be more supportive
But that’s on the basis of having seen all sides of the equation and clearly having a higher Wisdom score
Eugene isn’t perfect but LG doesn’t ramens you have to be perfect
Indeed, Good doesn’t mean nice either
Malack was very nice and polite yet he was definitely evil

At some point, "not nice" crosses into downright abusive.

Also, thanks to you, now I'm hungry. Feed me.

[Fyraltari]

This isn't a political commentary, I just want to say that "I don't give a flying flamingo" is quite awesome as a dismissive remark.

I know, right? I've been itching to place that one for a while.

Also, it's nice to agree with you for once.

[Frozenstep]

The problems he created for himself, mind you. He'd sentence countless dwarven souls to Hel because he doesn't want to be bored and can't take responsibility. That does not Lawful Good make.

Just a correction, he actually did stop with his omni-cide solution and reconsider when Roy pointed out the dwarves would be sentenced to Hel. And like any upstanding lawful good person, he suggested what is basically mass suicide to get around it.

[The_Weirdo]

Just a correction, he actually did stop with his omni-cide solution and reconsider when Roy pointed out the dwarves would be sentenced to Hel. And like any upstanding lawful good person, he suggested what is basically mass suicide to get around it.

I stand corrected. The man is clearly a waste as a Wizard; he should have been a Paladin.

[Schroeswald]

I stand corrected. The man is clearly a waste as a Wizard; he should have been a Paladin.

And then he'd get to replace Miko and we'd have even more arguments about him!

[KrankenWagon]

Canvassing the goblin areas in search of the Red Cloak is fine. Slaughtering civilians in search of the Red Cloak is not. Regardless, there are hack-and-slash type paladins, which may well mean that Good in the world isn't that high a bar.

Isn't there a paladin in On the Origin of PCs that flat out states that murdering monsters is all OK and not violating any "good" alignment requirements because they're rated as "evil" in their stat sheet? I believe its around the time of the Orc rock concert, but I'm at school right now so I can't check my copy.

[The_Weirdo]

Isn't there a paladin in On the Origin of PCs that flat out states that murdering monsters is all OK and not violating any "good" alignment requirements because they're rated as "evil" in their stat sheet? I believe its around the time of the Orc rock concert, but I'm at school right now so I can't check my copy.

You are correct. Hence: not that high a bar.

[KrankenWagon]

You are correct. Hence: not that high a bar.

Yeah, it seems that when the gods were creating this world they decided to bury the bar for "good" somewhere in the mantle.

[The_Weirdo]

Yeah, it seems that when the gods were creating this world they decided to bury the bar for "good" somewhere in the mantle.

Nice one!

[Keltest]

Isn't there a paladin in On the Origin of PCs that flat out states that murdering monsters is all OK and not violating any "good" alignment requirements because they're rated as "evil" in their stat sheet? I believe its around the time of the Orc rock concert, but I'm at school right now so I can't check my copy.

I thought that what he stated was that he wasn't allowed to participate in the initial meeting between the adventurers and the orcs because he knew they were intending to outright murder them, but he needed to wait until the rest of the party provoked a fight without his presence so he could claim plausible deniability when he then joined in, referencing the tendency of real world players of paladins to get "distracted" either deliberately or by the party whenever the group wanted to do something nefarious.

[hamishspence]

Nope - it's made clear that the whole rest of the party, including the paladin, would have killed the orcs had it not been for Roy's actions, because "they're listed as CE, so we can kill them without alignment problems".


The closest thing to a "plausible deniability" bit is about trying to get Durkon killed by monsters.

[The_Weirdo]

Okay, so, can we all agree that it's very much not a high bar for "Good"?