OOTS #1190-1192 - The Multi-Strip Discussion Thread

[hamishspence]

It's a rather metagamey statement by those characters, at least.

The assumption that only actual murder needs to be avoided - and that "sending people you don't like on suicide missions" doesn't count as anything that needs to be avoided - is also something that seems more like the way players think than the way characters think.

[Keltest]

Honestly, I struggle to take any meaningful conclusions from any of the groups that act like theyre a bunch of players around the table instead of characters in the world. "theyre acting like the players instead of the characters" is fine for a joke, but when you try to extend that to actual worldbuilding, it just completely falls apart. The absurdity that makes it funny also means you cant really treat it with any seriousness.

If "orc" is just going to be another name for "bandit" then yeah, you cant really fault the players for treating them as inherently hostile and in need of extermination. If they aren't, and you communicated that to the players, then "theyre CE on the stat sheet" no longer holds true, except in a super literal "have a book thrown at you" sense.

[Doug Lampert]

Honestly, I struggle to take any meaningful conclusions from any of the groups that act like theyre a bunch of players around the table instead of characters in the world. "theyre acting like the players instead of the characters" is fine for a joke, but when you try to extend that to actual worldbuilding, it just completely falls apart. The absurdity that makes it funny also means you cant really treat it with any seriousness.

If "orc" is just going to be another name for "bandit" then yeah, you cant really fault the players for treating them as inherently hostile and in need of extermination. If they aren't, and you communicated that to the players, then "theyre CE on the stat sheet" no longer holds true, except in a super literal "have a book thrown at you" sense.

3.x actual rules, it's explicit in core that less than half of all orcs are CE. They are an "Often" race, and often is defined in the monster manual (both editions) to be less than a majority.

AFAICT from the internet, those definitions are regularly ignored by actual players of games I don't play in or GM for.

So to players, "Orc" may just be another word for bandit, but to people in the world, that attitude should be clearly evil. This makes for a problem if Rich was making a joke or reference to how people actually play in a comic that is usually treating alignment by the book rather than the way murder-hobo games treat it.

[The Aboleth]

I think it's also important to note that while that Paladin from OTOoPCs claimed to be Lawful Good, my sense is that they would NOT be considered LG by a Deva doing their "afterlife review." Roy almost got booted to the Neutral bin, after all, and I think most of us can agree even early-comic Roy was a better person than that Paladin.

[Resileaf]

I would say that most player's first 'contact' with orcs would be the Lord of the Rings kind, and so their viewpoint of them being unnecessary to feel sorry for would come from that setting.

[Morty]

3.x actual rules, it's explicit in core that less than half of all orcs are CE. They are an "Often" race, and often is defined in the monster manual (both editions) to be less than a majority.

AFAICT from the internet, those definitions are regularly ignored by actual players of games I don't play in or GM for.

The game gives the "usually evil" and "often evil" labels lip service at best, so I wouldn't be surprised players do the same. Most depictions of orcs, goblins or what have you focus on how vile and deserving of death they are.

[Keltest]

I think it's also important to note that while that Paladin from OTOoPCs claimed to be Lawful Good, my sense is that they would NOT be considered LG by a Deva doing their "afterlife review." Roy almost got booted to the Neutral bin, after all, and I think most of us can agree even early-comic Roy was a better person than that Paladin.

Yeah, the fact that a lot of the "technical good" characters aren't actually even technically good is another mark against me being able to take any commentary about D&D or morality at face value. Alignment is descriptive, not prescriptive. You cant just follow a handbook and qualify. Miko at least was interesting, because she genuinely seemed to want to do good, she just lost sight of what that actually meant in the face of her own ego and fallibility.

[Quizatzhaderac]

So I'm thinking that gods are no omniscient. We know they aren't, but I mean that they don't instantly know and understand the full implications of everything their followers do on prime material.

If a paladin commits a player-level breach of the paladin code (killing a party member without provocation, killing usually good creatures without a though understanding of circumstances, killing your liege lord/adoptive father) the gods figure it out very quickly.
If you breach the spirit of the code, passively breach it, or breach it by over enthusiastic execution of your duties, or anything the makes it superficially look like you keep the code (like sending Durkon off to die without support, killing goblin civilians, killing orc trouble makers that you could've talked to) it takes the gods a while to figure it out, maybe they don't even figure it out until after the mortal died.

They're like a boss that doesn't give you any feedback except during your annual review.

[factotum]

I think it's also important to note that while that Paladin from OTOoPCs claimed to be Lawful Good, my sense is that they would NOT be considered LG by a Deva doing their "afterlife review."

The only problem there is that Paladins are held to a much higher standard of LG than a regular LG person is, and they have a built-in meter telling them if they messed up, namely, they Fall and can't use their paladin powers anymore, so they can't just bumble through life and expect everything to get sorted out by the deva on the clouds.

[Peelee]

The only problem there is that Paladins are held to a much higher standard of LG than a regular LG person is, and they have a built-in meter telling them if they messed up, namely, they Fall and can't use their paladin powers anymore, so they can't just bumble through life and expect everything to get sorted out by the deva on the clouds.

I dont think it's inherently problematic with my headcanon view of how the world works - on alignment, the universe takes your word for it at first, provided you don't have any notable reason for them to not. Afterwards, the universe more or less eyeballs it. Once you get to the devas, they sort out the finer details. This lets them be able to get deeper into the metaphysical and philosophical weeds on an as-needed basis, instead of having everyone be watched at all times with a constant review. Working smarter, not harder, in a way. Or, at least, working more efficiently, not harder.

Or, put much more simplistically, alignments are colors, they loosely eyeball you on a 9-color scale while you're alive, and when you die they break out the tools to determine the RGB hex code and see if you even matched the quick and dirty estimation.

[Keltest]

I dont think it's inherently problematic with my headcanon view of how the world works - on alignment, the universe takes your word for it at first, provided you don't have any notable reason for them to not. Afterwards, the universe more or less eyeballs it. Once you get to the devas, they sort out the finer details. This lets them be able to get deeper into the metaphysical and philosophical weeds on an as-needed basis, instead of having everyone be watched at all times with a constant review. Working smarter, not harder, in a way. Or, at least, working more efficiently, not harder.

Or, put much more simplistically, alignments are colors, they loosely eyeball you on a 9-color scale while you're alive, and when you die they break out the tools to determine the RGB hex code and see if you even matched the quick and dirty estimation.

That works well enough for folks like Roy I guess, but when you get to paladins and clerics, theyre held to different standards. To use your analogy, they should be using the tools the entire time for them, because they have significantly less room for error. A paladin cant just get away with being blue, they need to be a specific shade of blue. Clerics need to be a certain range of their god's color, etc... So to give them these requirements, and then not actually watch to make sure theyre being followed the way you want seems... wrong.

[Resileaf]

That works well enough for folks like Roy I guess, but when you get to paladins and clerics, theyre held to different standards. To use your analogy, they should be using the tools the entire time for them, because they have significantly less room for error. A paladin cant just get away with being blue, they need to be a specific shade of blue. Clerics need to be a certain range of their god's color, etc... So to give them these requirements, and then not actually watch to make sure theyre being followed the way you want seems... wrong.

Not every DM judges the paladin action by action. Sometimes the DM will let slide the small stuff, and if the paladin has an out-of-game conversation with another player to plan to get rid of another character and the GM is not privy to that conversation, there's not much he can do about it. Most of the time, GMs will wait for something really big, or for multiple smaller things to hit the paladin with the banhammer.

[Keltest]

Not every DM judges the paladin action by action. Sometimes the DM will let slide the small stuff, and if the paladin has an out-of-game conversation with another player to plan to get rid of another character and the GM is not privy to that conversation, there's not much he can do about it. Most of the time, GMs will wait for something really big, or for multiple smaller things to hit the paladin with the banhammer.

That's an out of game explanation though, not an in-universe explanation. Creating that separation is the whole point of the paladin's player allowing himself to become distracted or be not present, but in the case of OOTS, where there is no out of game reality, the paladin is either genuinely distracted or he's willfully conspiring to have somebody murdered.

[Peelee]

That works well enough for folks like Roy I guess, but when you get to paladins and clerics, theyre held to different standards. To use your analogy, they should be using the tools the entire time for them,

Should be? Yes. I wholeheartedly agree. But they're not. As we see with Roy's paladin. World ain't perfect.

[hamishspence]

in the case of OOTS, where there is no out of game reality, the paladin is either genuinely distracted or he's willfully conspiring to have somebody murdered.

He states outright that he'd kill Durkon himself, if it wasn't for having to keep a lawful good alignment. Since he can't murder or be party to murder, all he can do is agree to the "suicide missions" thing.

[Keltest]

He states outright that he'd kill Durkon himself, if it wasn't for having to keep a lawful good alignment. Since he can't murder or be party to murder, all he can do is agree to the "suicide missions" thing.

My point is that he's a willing participant in the "suicide missions" murder scheme. He is being a party to murder here, yet he's not falling for it. He isn't "technically good" he's just an evil paladin in a world where that's nominally impossible.

[Resileaf]

That's an out of game explanation though, not an in-universe explanation. Creating that separation is the whole point of the paladin's player allowing himself to become distracted or be not present, but in the case of OOTS, where there is no out of game reality, the paladin is either genuinely distracted or he's willfully conspiring to have somebody murdered.

I find that the comic is self-aware enough that the rules of the world acknowledge a difference between out-of-game and in-game dialogue.

At the very least, he has not yet commited an evil action to lose his class, despite having conspired to do it, and the rules of the world acknowledge actions, not words, so as long as Durkon does not die to this suicide mission (or is not sent), the paladin has not yet commited an evil action.

[Keltest]

I find that the comic is self-aware enough that the rules of the world acknowledge a difference between out-of-game and in-game dialogue.

At the very least, he has not yet commited an evil action to lose his class, despite having conspired to do it, and the rules of the world acknowledge actions, not words, so as long as Durkon does not die to this suicide mission (or is not sent), the paladin has not yet commited an evil action.

That sounds dangerously close to "attempted murder isn't wrong as long as it doesn't succeed." to me. I recognize that isn't what you, personally believe, and im fairly certain that it isn't what Rich is trying to communicate either, but if that were the kind of standard being deliberately set in the stickverse, what does that even have to do with good and evil any more, real or as pertaining to the game?

[KorvinStarmast]

So I'm thinking that gods are no omniscient.

As far as I can tell, Rich has never presented them as omniscient.

[MoiMagnus]

My point is that he's a willing participant in the "suicide missions" murder scheme. He is being a party to murder here, yet he's not falling for it. He isn't "technically good" he's just an evil paladin in a world where that's nominally impossible.

I don't think we've been given the technical definition of alignment of the OOTS universe. Shouldn't the conclusion of this be that the OOTS universe is much more flexible on what constitute an evil behavior for a paladin (or anyone else) than the 3.X canon? And that you can participate in those murder scheme (under some restrictions) while still being considered good by the universe?
[Disregarding what us, reader, would consider morally good or evil, or even what the 3.X RAW consider to be good or evil]


Definition of good and evil in D&D being the most "houseruled" part of the rule (including tables that are not conscious their vision is incompatible with RAW, and probably including some of the game designer and author scenario authors), I would hardly say there is a consensus on what good and evil means. So I won't blame the Giant for using the interpretation of D&D alignment he want rather the "most RAW" version of it.

[Fyraltari]

That sounds dangerously close to "attempted murder isn't wrong as long as it doesn't succeed." to me. I recognize that isn't what you, personally believe, and im fairly certain that it isn't what Rich is trying to communicate either, but if that were the kind of standard being deliberately set in the stickverse, what does that even have to do with good and evil any more, real or as pertaining to the game?

I think it could be construed as "giving you a chance to back out of it" Maybe that paladin would have fallen if Durkon had died in battle but as long as that happened, th emetaphysical forces of judgment are waiting to see wether the guy has a realization and decides not to go through with it at the last minute.

[Resileaf]

That sounds dangerously close to "attempted murder isn't wrong as long as it doesn't succeed." to me. I recognize that isn't what you, personally believe, and im fairly certain that it isn't what Rich is trying to communicate either, but if that were the kind of standard being deliberately set in the stickverse, what does that even have to do with good and evil any more, real or as pertaining to the game?

It's not that what he did was not wrong, and more that the rules wait for the action to take place for the punishment to activate. Have you ever said you were taking a stupid action or saying something wildly out of character in a tabletop and retracted when the GM answered "Are you seriously doing that"? Because we do it at my table all the time. OotS is fundamentally a tabletop universe with tabletop rules and tabletop jokes.

Anyway, we have a precedent in this comic for a paladin commiting actions that were not strictly good and not falling until she did something too big that made not falling impossible, so it's not a surprise that some other paladin who is a jerk who wants to loophole his class' rules has not fallen yet.

[hamishspence]

My point is that he's a willing participant in the "suicide missions" murder scheme. He is being a party to murder here, yet he's not falling for it.

I think the point is that it isn't actually murder in the strictest sense. Durkon knows what he's in for, and has the option of simply leaving the party and going elsewhere - but he nevertheless, takes those missions - and manages not to die.

[Frozenstep]

That works well enough for folks like Roy I guess, but when you get to paladins and clerics, theyre held to different standards. To use your analogy, they should be using the tools the entire time for them, because they have significantly less room for error. A paladin cant just get away with being blue, they need to be a specific shade of blue. Clerics need to be a certain range of their god's color, etc... So to give them these requirements, and then not actually watch to make sure theyre being followed the way you want seems... wrong.

It might just not be practical to watch everyone all the time. This is a world where Thor almost gave Elan a colon tumor with an automated system, and Thor couldn't even be bothered to stick around when his devas couldn't figure out what spell Durkon was trying to cast when he first tried to use mass death ward against Nale and Sabine.

They might check in now and then, who knows, but they might not know there's a serious problem until they actually do something drastic.

[Boo600]

Speaking in regards to 1192, I'm just happy that Julia's sudden New Spell not only makes sense for the setting, but doesn't give them any new resources as a Deus ex Machina.

That being said, while being able to communicate with Cliffport through Julia likely won't amount to anything, Julia is a low-level wizard with Sending spells. She could contact Vaarsuvius' master and other mobile allies (can't remember any) without V spending spells on an adventure (which, given the cost of scrolls or the risks of 'wasting' spells-per-day, could be useful... but isn't critical).

Which actually brings me to something else:

V has a powerful mentor who, if the fiends were to be believed, could teleport.

That seems like someone you'd call in for help, if only to see if he has any spells he could teach V. He could be busy, uninterested, etc, but I'm curious about whether they "haven't thought about it" or have a reason to not call.

[factotum]

V has a powerful mentor who, if the fiends were to be believed, could teleport.

That seems like someone you'd call in for help, if only to see if he has any spells he could teach V. He could be busy, uninterested, etc, but I'm curious about whether they "haven't thought about it" or have a reason to not call.

"if the fiends were to be believed" isn't generally a strategy with high odds of success, fiends being fiends. Don't forget, we saw V imagining his old master killing the ABD with a single spell while reading a book and looking in the other direction--which implies a level of power I'm not sure exists anywhere in Stickworld; even V, with all the splices in place, took a few rounds (including a Time Stop) to destroy her. So, while trance-deprived V may have believed in his desperation that his old master was simply that powerful, I'm not convinced that's actually the case.

[Imbalance]

What's with the crack above the desk behind the cat?

[Schroeswald]

What's with the crack above the desk behind the cat?

That’s where Blackwing used a scroll to cast Locate Creature during the rat attack

[Imbalance]

That’s where Blackwing used a scroll to cast Locate Creature during the rat attack

Thanks. While I was pretty sure there was a previous event I was forgetting, I couldn't shake the notion that the yarn was attempting to distract from something happening in the background.

[GrayGriffin]

I think it could be construed as "giving you a chance to back out of it" Maybe that paladin would have fallen if Durkon had died in battle but as long as that happened, th emetaphysical forces of judgment are waiting to see wether the guy has a realization and decides not to go through with it at the last minute.

This makes sense to me, considering Roy was allowed to pass through because he went back for Elan despite initially planning to abandon him.