could vow of poverty actually fit druid?

[King of Nowhere]

ok, we all know that the vop is usable as a storytelling tool but won't make your character stronger. and every once in a while someone asks about vop monk, which is really the worst at most things.

but i've never seen anyone discuss the vop on a druid. i think there are many reasons why the druid may actually get boosts from it over regular equipment

- druids are not very dependent on items, as they buff themselves. little loss there.
- druids have a hard time using armors with animal form. at best, it's much more expensive. vop gives a lot of armor bonus, which druids usually lack. vop does give very little natural armor, which the druid gets from barkskin+animal form with natural armor. so, good overlapping there. you could get to a really high armor class.
- in general, many items are difficult to use in animal form, or need to be made more expensive. so the druid get less boost for his money, further reducing the gap with vop.
- vop major weakness is lack of flight, which the druid gets easily
- vop gives its full enhancement bonus to all your attacks. if you are turned into an animal form with many different attacks, all of them are boosted to the full. this is difficult to achieve otherwise.

so far you're still at a loss, because you still lose access to quicken metamagic rod.
but what if we let the druid also give the vop bonuses to his animal companion? would you think in this mental experiment vop would actually become a favorable mechanic?

[Unavenger]

VoP on animal companions is very strong; on druids themselves it's a pretty reasonable alternative to mucking around with wilding clasps for everything but a bit weak. Putting it on both is probably roughly speaking equivalent to not having it on either in terms of how good it is, if not necessarily the specific ways in which it's good.

[Wildstag]

I have used Vow of Poverty on Druid-adjacent classes, but as I understand it, using it on a caster is slightly more forgiving than on a martial.

I do have it on good authority that using the VoP on a PrC such as Primeval works wonders, but note that even the archive suggests speaking with your DM about this first, since nothing explicitly states that alternate forms work with the Vow. The Primeval build I use it on also uses Warshaper, which is called out in the link, so ymmv. The link also suggests a method of increasing the bonus to AC based off of the highest armor proficiency you lose in VoP.

Thematically, it can definitely fit the druid though, especially when paired with the Fist of the Forest PrC, but you would need a few non-caster feats for that, in addition to losing a caster level. A 1-level dip gets you a dip in the flavor, which can overlap with your Vow depending on how you word it. It also nets you a pretty sweet AC bonus in the form of Con-mod to AC, so yeah. I use all three PrCs on my VoP build, but then, that's a martial build.

[Zancloufer]

There is also a pile of Bonus Exalted feats that you get. Normally they wouldn't really be worth taking, but since you get 10 of them for free it's worth looking into.

Nymph's Kiss is nice for +1 skill points. Intuitive Attack lets you replace Str with Wis for damage. Exalted Wild Shape let's you slap the Celesital Template on any animal you can turn into and grants a few extra magical beasts. Touch of Golen Ice is usually bad, but if your using natural weapons 24/7 it can be pretty nasty.

There are a few others that give cute little bonuses (non-lethal damage with any [natural] weapon, tiny bonus damage vs evil, the ability to burn like a torch or deal small AoE damage vs undead,).

Overall it works thematically. You save on book keeping and it gives your druid a much higher floor. Might not be as silly in theory as a Druid can be, but IMHO the RP limitations of being "Exalted" probably hurt more than the loss of gear.

[gkathellar]

It's still not as good as items, but it is dramatically better than it is on virtually any other character class.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I do have it on good authority that using the VoP on a PrC such as Primeval works wonders, but note that even the archive suggests speaking with your DM about this first, since nothing explicitly states that alternate forms work with the Vow. The Primeval build I use it on also uses Warshaper, which is called out in the link, so ymmv. The link also suggests a method of increasing the bonus to AC based off of the highest armor proficiency you lose in VoP.

Given that the article you linked suggests that VoP is great for monk of all classes, I would take everything mentioned in it with a grain of salt the size of Mt. Rushmore.

[Wildstag]

Given that the article you linked suggests that VoP is great for monk of all classes, I would take everything mentioned in it with a grain of salt the size of Mt. Rushmore.

Well, sure, you can choose to judge the entire article on the contents of one line, or you can be open-minded and actually discuss the point I was making. Shame you chose the lazy option. Given that creatures with Alternate Forms (hengeyokai, lycanthropes, etc.) don't benefit from clasps that only work with Wild Shape, the bulk of my point still stands: talk with the GM to make sure they consider the ability usable in different forms. In the case of Wild Shape, it doesn't hurt to consult the GM. But sure, use a line I didn't reference for my point to invalidate the argument.

Intuitive Attack lets you replace Str with Wis for damage.

Alas, Intuitive Attack only works on the attack rolls, not for damage rolls.

[King of Nowhere]

There is also a pile of Bonus Exalted feats that you get. Normally they wouldn't really be worth taking, but since you get 10 of them for free it's worth looking into.

Nymph's Kiss is nice for +1 skill points. Intuitive Attack lets you replace Str with Wis for damage. Exalted Wild Shape let's you slap the Celesital Template on any animal you can turn into and grants a few extra magical beasts. Touch of Golen Ice is usually bad, but if your using natural weapons 24/7 it can be pretty nasty.

There are a few others that give cute little bonuses (non-lethal damage with any [natural] weapon, tiny bonus damage vs evil, the ability to burn like a torch or deal small AoE damage vs undead,).

Overall it works thematically. You save on book keeping and it gives your druid a much higher floor. Might not be as silly in theory as a Druid can be, but IMHO the RP limitations of being "Exalted" probably hurt more than the loss of gear.

yeah, wasn't commenting on feats because i'm not an expert on those, but some of them do fit a druid hitting with wild shape very well, and would give an actual boost over items

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well, sure, you can choose to judge the entire article on the contents of one line, or you can be open-minded and actually discuss the point I was making. Shame you chose the lazy option. Given that creatures with Alternate Forms (hengeyokai, lycanthropes, etc.) don't benefit from clasps that only work with Wild Shape, the bulk of my point still stands: talk with the GM to make sure they consider the ability usable in different forms. In the case of Wild Shape, it doesn't hurt to consult the GM. But sure, use a line I didn't reference for my point to invalidate the argument.

Honestly? Anyone who asserts that VoP is great with monk clearly has no idea how either of them works, and thusly cannot be relied upon to know what they're talking about. Monk is the poster-child for "near absolute worst fit with VoP." That's literally as basic as it gets.

[Gruftzwerg]

yeah, wasn't commenting on feats because i'm not an expert on those, but some of them do fit a druid hitting with wild shape very well, and would give an actual boost over items

If we are talking about a Wild Shape focused builds like Master of Many Forms / Warshaper, who already forfeits high lvl spells (and thus T1 status), it may be not that bad. For a regular/balanced or caster focused druid it is just to limiting. Definitely dumping her Tierlvl. But as said, can be fun for Wild Shape builds.

btw, Kensai is an option for noncasters (like monks) to overcome some of the limitations of VoP. Or better go with unarmed Swordsage/Kensai and get things like "Searing Charge" (charge + fly) and other nice thing to compensate the magic item loss.


Imho warlock & DFA are also often overlooked possible candidates for VOP. There are not so many mandatory magic items specifically tailored around the warlock/DFA. They don't need any expensive components for their invocation, get most important stuff as 24h buff (fly, blindsight, darksight). For a crowd control heavy warlock/dfa build the extra CHA would pay off imho. I'm not so good at possible "Humanoid Shape"(dfa only) abuse, but the extra stats could help there too.

maybe something like DFA 8/Kensai 10 to get Humanoid Shape + Draconic Flight and the Kensai stuff?

[Wildstag]

Honestly? Anyone who asserts that VoP is great with monk clearly has no idea how either of them works, and thusly cannot be relied upon to know what they're talking about. Monk is the poster-child for "near absolute worst fit with VoP." That's literally as basic as it gets.

Yes, and I agree with the monk statement, but you are ignoring the main point I was making: the comment on monks has no relevance to either this thread or my own point about why I linked the article, and at this point you’re just going on a ridiculous tangent using the laziest argument possible.

Now, if you’d like to argue the merits of the point I was making, then please, tell me why talking to the DM and making sure they agree that VoP works with Wild Shape is a bad idea. Tell me how the monk comment in the article makes that opinion that a player should talk to their DM using the “it’s not explicitly disallowed according to the text” argument is bad. Please, I’d love to hear your argument.

As is, the article, which was posted on the WotC site back in the day, was posted with a tentative seal of approval. It also seems to argue in favor of Wild Shape and Alternate Forms with VoP, so as far as this thread goes, you should be able to the bonuses in any form.

Additionally, the suggestion for DMs it gives that the VoP offer an additional +1 for each level of armor proficiency (including shields) would help out a druid with an additional +3 to AC. Granted, the VoP trades away the possibility of unique armor enhancements. Bonus AC is nice on any build.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Now, if you’d like to argue the merits of the point I was making, then please, tell me why talking to the DM and making sure they agree that VoP works with Wild Shape is a bad idea. Tell me how the monk comment in the article makes that opinion that a player should talk to their DM using the “it’s not explicitly disallowed according to the text” argument is bad. Please, I’d love to hear your argument.

There's no reason it wouldn't work, barring houserules. That'd only work if no feats can be used while wild shaped, which is obviously false, since so many feats are explicitly to be used in wild shape. Natural Spell, as a particularly outstanding example. Even bringing that up as a point of possible contention was a bad idea on the writer's part, since nobody has ever (to my knowledge) gotten the idea that VoP wouldn't work while wild shaped, and giving bad DMs bad ideas is a bad idea.

[King of Nowhere]

yeah, there's no reason vop should not apply to wild shape. not only it says it nowhere in the description, but even by fluff and RAI there's no reason whatsoever to remove the vop boosts to wild shape.

so, let's sum it up: vop will allow a druid to be considerably stronger while wild shaped, thanks to some good overlapping buffs and some exalted feats that work well with high wis and natural attacks.
the druid will lose a fair bit of casting power due to not being allowed metamagic rods. everything else should be roughly the same, since a druid can replace most items with buff spells.
perhaps you lose a bit of armor overall by losing monk's belt, if you allow it to work that way (most people in this forum take it for granted, but i wouldn't).
if you allow it to work on your animal companion, then it also becomes much stronger. that's not supported by RAW, but it's not a completely unreasonable houserule/homebrew

as such, druid is perhaps the best fit with vop, as it does not lose too much and it's maybe the only one to gain some tangible benefit

is this a good summary?

[eggynack]

A well itemed druid is definitely going to be better off than a VoP druid. If you're just running random crap for items then VoP might pull ahead, but good druid items are really good. Rng of the beast, rods of extend/lesser extend spell, wild shape boosters, ring of counterspells, belt of battle, aurial sapphires, there's just a lot of strong stuff out there. The numerical benefits from VoP can't possibly match these qualitative advantages, and the big qualitative advantage from VoP, the bonus feats, they're good but not exactly necessary. A standard druid build can reasonably the ground you need to cover. Something like aberrant blood, greenbound, natural spell, aberration wild shape, then maybe one of the initiate feats, it does fine. More than fine, actually. All you're really missing is the buffed animal companion, and other builds can get that if you want it. Hell, you could go straight up exalted companion at first, exalted wild shape at ninth, and there ya go, most of the ground covered near identically.

That said, VoP is near certainly better for druid than it is for any other class. It raises to the level of, like, mediocre. Kinda below average. Not actively terrible. Which is unusual for the feat, because the feat is quite bad. As you note, druid is both one of the classes for whom lacking items is the least troublesome (cause spells are good), and one of the classes for whom having items is the most troublesome (ya gotta pay the wilding clasp tax on a lot of your items). On top of that, as stated below, druids get the best return from exalted feats. You're down two feats to start with, but then you get a return of two full feats, with exalted companion and exalted wild shape, and the other feats add up to, I dunno, maybe two more feats in terms of value? Decent deal. Most classes do not do nearly so well.

All in all, go for it if it's a thing you're interested in. It won't be that bad, and druids are real good so you're liable to be at the top of the party power curve either way. Also, as for giving VoP benefits to companions, exalted companion grants some intelligence and definite goodness to the companion, so you could always just have the companion take the feat too.

Nymph's Kiss is nice for +1 skill points. Intuitive Attack lets you replace Str with Wis for damage. Exalted Wild Shape let's you slap the Celesital Template on any animal you can turn into and grants a few extra magical beasts. Touch of Golen Ice is usually bad, but if your using natural weapons 24/7 it can be pretty nasty.

There are a few others that give cute little bonuses (non-lethal damage with any [natural] weapon, tiny bonus damage vs evil, the ability to burn like a torch or deal small AoE damage vs undead,).

Exalted companion is also great, allowing for VoP companions. Words of creation offers serious benefits if you're willing to go kinda deep build-wise. Nymph's kiss is good for everyone including druids. Oh, and one of those beasts from exalted wild shape is the blink dog, which is incredible. Notably, the celestial template option also grants Ex special qualities, so that's a sizable benefit. That druids get perhaps the best exalted feats in the game is one of the main things that makes the build okay. Most builds run out of actually usable exalted feats really fast. Druids do so marginally less quickly.

If we are talking about a Wild Shape focused builds like Master of Many Forms / Warshaper, who already forfeits high lvl spells (and thus T1 status), it may be not that bad. For a regular/balanced or caster focused druid it is just to limiting. Definitely dumping her Tierlvl. But as said, can be fun for Wild Shape builds.

I genuinely have no idea why this would be the case. One of the best things about the druid+VoP combo is that druids don't need items to do stuff. Cause they have spells. MoMF builds can also do a lot of things, cause it's a strong ability, but spells grant pretty much unmatched item non-reliance. Which is nice. Also, MoMF meaningfully reduces the utility of exalted wild shape, which is the best exalted feat, so there's some lack of synergy there. Like, I guess VoP lets you punch stuff better, but It all seems kinda marginal. Doubly so when you can get solid punch-forms either way.

Now, if you’d like to argue the merits of the point I was making, then please, tell me why talking to the DM and making sure they agree that VoP works with Wild Shape is a bad idea. Tell me how the monk comment in the article makes that opinion that a player should talk to their DM using the “it’s not explicitly disallowed according to the text” argument is bad. Please, I’d love to hear your argument.

As noted, I see no good reason to think that wild shape would turn off VoP benefits. Why would it? It really just makes no sense as a rules argument.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I used VoP to pretty solid effect on a Divine Minion in MoMF, but the sheer volume of wilding clasps I would have needed would have been cost prohibitive, plus I had a ton of extra options from MoMF's shifting. Druid "only" has animal forms and can reasonably be expected to spend time not wild shaped, so I don't see VoP being of great benefit to them. It's mostly useful if playing the item sub-game gets boring frustrating, but porting in PF's automatic bonus progression would probably be better.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Now, if only VoP druids could go inside buildings, look at artwork (even at a sideways glance to see what it is), or read a sign without losing all their benefits permanently.

[eggynack]

I used VoP to pretty solid effect on a Divine Minion in MoMF, but the sheer volume of wilding clasps I would have needed would have been cost prohibitive, plus I had a ton of extra options from MoMF's shifting. Druid "only" has animal forms and can reasonably be expected to spend time not wild shaped, so I don't see VoP being of great benefit to them. It's mostly useful if playing the item sub-game gets boring frustrating, but porting in PF's automatic bonus progression would probably be better.

I dunno why you'd ever not be in wild shape unless you need to talk and don't have a workaround for that. Especially if you have a form adding feat of some kind. That said, the ring of the beast and rod of extend spells being usable without wilding clasps does reduce that particular cost somewhat.

[Zancloufer]

Exalted companion is also great, allowing for VoP companions. Words of creation offers serious benefits if you're willing to go kinda deep build-wise. Nymph's kiss is good for everyone including druids. Oh, and one of those beasts from exalted wild shape is the blink dog, which is incredible. Notably, the celestial template option also grants Ex special qualities, so that's a sizable benefit. That druids get perhaps the best exalted feats in the game is one of the main things that makes the build okay. Most builds run out of actually usable exalted feats really fast. Druids do so marginally less quickly.

I think you might be able to squeeze 10 usable feats out of it actually. There is probably 1-2 at the end that your taking just because (though they would still grant a minute benefit) but the first 6 at least are legit useful and not just being taken because you have to.

Now, if only VoP druids could go inside buildings, look at artwork (even at a sideways glance to see what it is), or read a sign without losing all their benefits permanently.

Not sure I follow that train of thought. The VoP druid doesn't own any of those things as such their mere existence doesn't violate their vow. The use of public works or entering a building when invited doesn't really lead to any direct violation. Honestly sounds like your stretching RAW to punish someone for the mere mistake of existing.

[eggynack]

I think you might be able to squeeze 10 usable feats out of it actually. There is probably 1-2 at the end that your taking just because (though they would still grant a minute benefit) but the first 6 at least are legit useful and not just being taken because you have to.

I tend to think of it in terms of effective feat value. How many feats would you reasonably expect to spend on the feats you're getting? So, exalted wild shape and companion are one each. Fine feats that you could theoretically just take, so you break even with the cost immediately. Which is nice. Intuitive attack, words of creation (if you can take it), nymph's kiss, maybe touch of golden ice, these are, what, quarter to half? I dunno if I'd do an intuitive attack+touch of golden ice bundle, but I could imagine doing a words of creation+nymph's kiss bundle if I'm stretching a bit. Maybe call all of that 1.5 or so, putting you up to 3.5. Sanctify natural attack, nimbus of light, and animal friend kinda feel like they're between this quarter to half category and the dregs. I'll put the total at 3.875 on their basis (cause they're like an eighth).

So, then we get to the nothings or close to it. Defender of the homeland, lliira's blessing, vow of chastity, vow of purity, favored of the companions, gift of discernment. Just noticed my list is missing gift of faith for whatever that's worth (not much). Does that put it to four? A little more? A little less? I dunno. Drops closer to 3.5 if you can't afford words of creation, and a lot of people can't. Given the high value of druid feats, I'm arguably being charitable rather than uncharitable. Oh, and exalted companion probably stops being worth a feat if you can't give VoP to your companion, so that's a thing.

This state of things though, getting a reasonably clear cut feat profit, I think it's unusual for VoP. I suspect most classes are running an outright deficit and those remaining break even. And, as you note, while you're pretty inevitably going to hit feats that are absolutely worthless, it's gonna take awhile. Which is nice for the spirit if for nothing else. Oh, and you get exalted wild shape a level early. Pretty nice benefit.

Edit: Wow, gift of faith is weird. It protects from fear, despair (like crushing despair), and "similar mind-affecting effects", but not charms and compulsions. I assume that last thing applies only to the similar effects, but I think that covers literally all enchantments, even though they seem to want to cover specifically charm and dominate. It's interesting, cause the wording would otherwise probably cover anything that produces negative emotions. Which, y'know, still not the longest list, but I think there're some anger effects floating around. Kinda wondering if this feat does anything besides fear and despair. Wouldn't be worth much in any case, but it's a vaguely interesting question.

[Unavenger]

Now, if only VoP druids could go inside buildings, look at artwork (even at a sideways glance to see what it is), or read a sign without losing all their benefits permanently.

That's a massive stretch of the definition of "Using objects" and I think you're fully aware of that fact. If there were so much as a snowball's chance in hell of any DM (apart from, I suppose, possibly yourself) actually being that ridiculous about VoP then I might have more truck with it, but that can't be any less than deliberately reading it to be as stupid as possible.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Not sure I follow that train of thought. The VoP druid doesn't own any of those things as such their mere existence doesn't violate their vow. The use of public works or entering a building when invited doesn't really lead to any direct violation. Honestly sounds like your stretching RAW to punish someone for the mere mistake of existing.

That's a massive stretch of the definition of "Using objects" and I think you're fully aware of that fact. If there were so much as a snowball's chance in hell of any DM (apart from, I suppose, possibly yourself) actually being that ridiculous about VoP then I might have more truck with it, but that can't be any less than deliberately reading it to be as stupid as possible.

Unfortunately, taking the RAW as is, you cannot use anything that isn't on the pre-approved list, which is extremely limited, if you want to retain your VoP status (which cannot be gotten back once violated). It does not include using buildings or doors or even flooring. Common sense isn't all that common, and the rules are not written to include it.

Houseruling is great, because you have to in order to make VoP at all functional, but at least realize that it is houseruling, because RAW it ain't.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Unless you are devouring that painting "observing" art is not synonymous with "using" it. Your example is hyperbolic to the point of not serving any particular use and declaring that anyone who attempts to employ the English definition of the word use to be "houseruling" is both
self-aggrandizing and not helpful to the conversation.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Unless you are devouring that painting "observing" art is not synonymous with "using" it. Your example is hyperbolic to the point of not serving any particular use and declaring that anyone who attempts to employ the English definition of the word use to be "houseruling" is both
self-aggrandizing and not helpful to the conversation.

Question: What is the purpose of art? What use does one normally put a painting to? Is looking at a beautiful statue or painting using it?

And what are you not supposed to do with anything at all not on the specified list? If you said "use it," you're 100% correct.

[King of Nowhere]

Unfortunately, taking the RAW as is, you cannot use anything that isn't on the pre-approved list, which is extremely limited, if you want to retain your VoP status (which cannot be gotten back once violated). It does not include using buildings or doors or even flooring. Common sense isn't all that common, and the rules are not written to include it.

Houseruling is great, because you have to in order to make VoP at all functional, but at least realize that it is houseruling, because RAW it ain't.

seriously? i avoided answering at first because i thought it was a joke.
i mean, that RAW interpretation is commonly known, but NOBODY would ever take it as anything but a joke, right?

if we want to go down that path, since you are walking on the world, you are using the world. and the world is clearly a place full of magic, and it is a cohesive piece, so you are using a magic item. but nowhere in the world description does it say that this "world" magic item can be used by any class. so you cannot use it without ranks in use magic device, and so you get instantaneously ejected to outer space.
oh, let's take an example that's closer to RAW:

In severe heat (above 110° F [42 °C]), a character must make a Fortitude save once every 10 minutes (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage.
[...]
Extreme heat (air temperature over 140° F [59°C]) deals lethal damage. Breathing air in these temperatures deals 1d6 points of damage per minute (no save).

well, there is a town called dallol, in ethiopia, where the average temperature year-round is 34 °C, and during the hot season the temperature stays around 45 °C for serveral hours. i guess the people there all have fort saves in the +50 range to survive, children included.
as for the second, inside a sauna the air temperature is normally around 90 °C. considering most people stay in the sauna around 10 minutes with no ill effects...

also from the same page

Corrosive acids deals 1d6 points of damage per round of exposure except in the case of total immersion (such as into a vat of acid), which deals 10d6 points of damage per round.

except that we have two workers falling into concentrated nitric acid, remaining several rounds inside the stuff, and surviving. they should have taken several hundred points of damage; maybe they have 20 levels of barbarian?

what we learn here is that some rules are already dumb enough without people actively trying to make them even dumber.
and the vop is already something that is very fluff-oriented. applying raw over rai for it makes even less sense than it does for anything else.

[Kalkra]

I honestly haven't read every preceding post, but I'll just mention a few pieces of game-breaking tech.

I saw people talking about the RAW vs RAI reading, so I'm assuming that the OP is assuming that you can't just use things without owning them.

The prestige class Apostle of Peace lets you wear magic AC-boosting items. You could take a level of that, but it requires the other VoP which is even more poorly written (bacteria exist, after all), so the only logical and reasonable alternative is to take three levels of Illithid Savant and eat the brain of an Apostle of Peace. The OP mentioned Druid, so see if you can qualify with Aberration Wild Shape.

If Dragon Mag is legal, take Sculpt Self and get all the benefits of all the magic items without needing to own anything.

[liquidformat]

Now, if you’d like to argue the merits of the point I was making, then please, tell me why talking to the DM and making sure they agree that VoP works with Wild Shape is a bad idea. Tell me how the monk comment in the article makes that opinion that a player should talk to their DM using the “it’s not explicitly disallowed according to the text” argument is bad. Please, I’d love to hear your argument.

I agree with Eggy and Max here, reading through that article I get the feeling the writer doesn't actually understand how the rules work (which sadly isn't uncommon for the staff and writers of WotC). The bonuses from VoP aren't racial bonuses and are therefore independent of your form by RAW.

I used VoP to pretty solid effect on a Divine Minion in MoMF, but the sheer volume of wilding clasps I would have needed would have been cost prohibitive, plus I had a ton of extra options from MoMF's shifting. Druid "only" has animal forms and can reasonably be expected to spend time not wild shaped, so I don't see VoP being of great benefit to them. It's mostly useful if playing the item sub-game gets boring frustrating, but porting in PF's automatic bonus progression would probably be better.

Druids, MoMF, and Primeval are my favorites to play as and I have played all of them with and without VoP multiple times; it is just how you think about things and how you build.

All you need for druids to spend all day in wild shape is access to a form that can communicate, this can be as easy as being a baboon, ape, Swindlespitter, or so forth that can write/use sign language (drow sign language can be a lot of fun if you have a couple players with it) or having access to forms like giant eagle and urskans that can actually speak which you can gain access to through a single feat. As far as wilding clasps go the key is stacking magic item abilities onto a few items rather than having a bunch of items needing clasps. It is pretty straightforward to stack a bunch of abilities onto a vest or a amulet once you know what abilities can go where and once you have a vest of many pockets simply pulling wands, rods, and other items out to use is easy enough...

As far as VoP goes my favorite is actually using it on a Primeval, sure it is a bruiser with little casting I actually think it just just as well with VoP as with items and in some ways better. I normally like going with City Brawler Bear Totem Barbarian 3/Wild Shape Ranger 5/Fist of the Forest 2/Primeval 10 with dire puma and VoP actually works really well especially if you can get your DM to let Exalted Wild Shape to apply Celestial template to your primeval form. Using that build I have been in a few optimizer games where I got complaints from full casters for being to OP which I took pride in.

[Telonius]

Totemist probably loses the least, when it comes to VoP; but you can have a perfectly functional Druid without magical items.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

seriously? i avoided answering at first because i thought it was a joke.
i mean, that RAW interpretation is commonly known, but NOBODY would ever take it as anything but a joke, right?

You obviously haven't played with some of the stupid DMs I've had to deal with.

if we want to go down that path, since you are walking on the world, you are using the world. and the world is clearly a place full of magic, and it is a cohesive piece, so you are using a magic item. but nowhere in the world description does it say that this "world" magic item can be used by any class. so you cannot use it without ranks in use magic device, and so you get instantaneously ejected to outer space.

Yes, this is another bit of rules stupidity on VoP, although most campaign worlds don't consider the Material Plane/planet to be a magic item. An object on which there is magic, and in which there are certain places that are magic, but the world as a whole is not.

oh, let's take an example that's closer to RAW:

well, there is a town called dallol, in ethiopia, where the average temperature year-round is 34 °C, and during the hot season the temperature stays around 45 °C for serveral hours. i guess the people there all have fort saves in the +50 range to survive, children included.
as for the second, inside a sauna the air temperature is normally around 90 °C. considering most people stay in the sauna around 10 minutes with no ill effects...

also from the same page


except that we have two workers falling into concentrated nitric acid, remaining several rounds inside the stuff, and surviving. they should have taken several hundred points of damage; maybe they have 20 levels of barbarian?

what we learn here is that some rules are already dumb enough without people actively trying to make them even dumber.
and the vop is already something that is very fluff-oriented. applying raw over rai for it makes even less sense than it does for anything else.

Dysfunctions in the rules, yes.

As far as VoP goes, the relevant passage is thus:

<Snip> To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick. You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals) with no magical properties. You may carry enough food to sustain you for one day in a simple (nonmagic) sack or bag. You may carry and use a spell component pouch. You may not use any magic item of any sort </snip>

You must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions. That list is extremely limited and extremely specific. It does not give any leeway whatsoever beyond "items used on your behalf." You could be carried through a doorway or hop on someone else's back to be carried through a building, but by the rules you are not allowed to enter or stay in a house on your own volition, because that is "using a material possession," even if that possession is someone else's, or that someone else is long gone.

At the very least, saying a VoP character can do so without permanently losing his vow is reasonable is a houserule, because the RAW is very specific and very explicit. Just because it's extreme doesn't mean it isn't RAW, because it totally is. Giving more leeway than what RAW allows is reasonable, yes. It's also a houserule, because it's going against very explicit RAW.

[danzibr]

VoP on animal companions is very strong; on druids themselves it's a pretty reasonable alternative to mucking around with wilding clasps for everything but a bit weak. Putting it on both is probably roughly speaking equivalent to not having it on either in terms of how good it is, if not necessarily the specific ways in which it's good.

Interesting nobody responded to this hilarity.

VoP on an AC... I love it.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Interesting nobody responded to this hilarity.

VoP on an AC... I love it.

I've done it; it was fantastic. I gave my ghost tiger stigmata to be an emergency last line healer and he legit saved a PC with the feat.