Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 56
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Howdy! I'm working on an overcomplicated necromancer build in 3.x gestalt and, well... spellcasters in 3e have so many options I have trouble keeping track of them all, but I ended up with some interesting class abilities for necromancy spells and I want to know how best to utilize them. This has a lot of 3rd party content already so like, anything goes? But I understand a preference to keep towards official content.

    The big one is Augment Necromancy from the Devoted Necromancer base class (from a splatbook: Dark Arts of Necromancy). Basically, by level 20 I get to ignore 6 metamagic levels for necromancy spells. This is why I want metamagic specifically.

    Some other abilities that might augment these requests:
    1: Eschew Necromantic Spell Component (Death Lord, Magic of Arcanis): I can use a casting focus (1000g of onyx in a fancy symbol) in place of costly components for necromancy spells, so any high GP component spells (besides the creation of undead) would be useful to know as well.
    2: Extended Necromancy (Crypt Lord, Relics and Rituals): Any transmutation spell "that relates to the modification of a body" (references bulls strength and polymorph as examples) can be taken as a necromancy spell, but with obvious taint. This does vastly increase the number of options for the first two abilities as well.

    The main things I have on my list so far include what I learned from my friend's dread necro years ago (Maximized shivering touch (FB) for 18 dex damage) and a couple obvious effects with the later two abilities (gp-free gravestone stoneskin or persistent shapechange) but I just don't have a great sense of offensive necromancy spells or metamagic shenanigans.

    TLDR: how would you metamagic necromancy if you got 6 metamagic levels for free?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    razorback's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Keeping with the theme, how about Fell Drain on Dessicate/Dessicate,Mass/Dessicating Bubble seems like a good start.
    Hey, did my first homebrew class. Check it out.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by razorback View Post
    Keeping with the theme, how about Fell Drain on Dessicate/Dessicate,Mass/Dessicating Bubble seems like a good start.
    Ah, all the fell metamagics sound pretty on-flavor, though drain sounds like a pretty good general use option. That could be pretty effective, yeah.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGirl

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    If you're going undead control necromancer can't go wrong with fell energy metamagic to buff your undead by a very considerable margin.

    If you're a cha caster and using 3rd party there is the spell beauty'sleep caress from book of erotica fantasy. 1d4 cha/2 clvl with max and empower (and in reserves of strength to break caps) is a lot of cha.
    Last edited by Oberron; 2020-02-22 at 09:08 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2016

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Another good option is always to go for better buffs. Extended/Empowered Spell and/or Chain Spell can help here imho.
    Shivering Tornado of Death Arcane Channeling Optimization
    Hammerdin of Moradin a guide to epic hammer throwing
    ShurikeNado a Shuriken Master build
    Almighty Claw of Malar monk/warlock gish (with minor DBZ-SSJ fluff)
    4 Driving Attack builds (incl. minor Berserk Manga *re-fluff*)
    TO: BoBaFeat Body outside Body & Void Disciple 4 to break the game.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Persistent Kiss of the Vampire will let you count as undead all day long for purposes of Fell Energy buffs you use on yourself.

    Also consider keeping an orphanage of Slaymates; they give you reductions to metamagic, as well.

    For excellent fodder for your free necromancer metamagic, look to the Mother Cyst feat. It gives you ten necromancy spells that offer lots of combat and control potential.

    Oh, and reach spell is pretty awesome on a number of touch spells. Chain Spell will let you Command Undead your CL+1 Undead at a time.
    Last edited by Segev; 2020-02-23 at 12:53 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberron View Post
    If you're going undead control necromancer can't go wrong with fell energy metamagic to buff your undead by a very considerable margin.

    If you're a cha caster and using 3rd party there is the spell beauty'sleep caress from book of erotica fantasy. 1d4 cha/2 clvl with max and empower (and in reserves of strength to break caps) is a lot of cha.
    yeah, doesnt that one cap at 5d4? going for +30 with the combo. Sadly, this is an int-based caster, but I can still make use of charisma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    Another good option is always to go for better buffs. Extended/Empowered Spell and/or Chain Spell can help here imho.
    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Persistent Kiss of the Vampire will let you count as undead all day long for purposes of Fell Energy buffs you use on yourself.

    Also consider keeping an orphanage of Slaymates; they give you reductions to metamagic, as well.

    For excellent fodder for your free necromancer metamagic, look to the Mother Cyst feat. It gives you ten necromancy spells that offer lots of combat and control potential.

    Oh, and reach spell is pretty awesome on a number of touch spells. Chain Spell will let you Command Undead your CL+1 Undead at a time.
    Okay, I hadn't heard of this Fell Energy one before, and its exactly one of those hidden gem feats I was hoping for.
    I;ve worked with a few buffmaster builds before so I know the extended shenanigans, but I'd always had a lot of trouble trying to utilize the chain metamagic. My mind always goes to "chain lightning" and its a damage dealer - but chain buffs? chain debuffs? chain utility? That's some good stuff.
    And thanks for cluing me in regarding the mother cyst feat, I've been looking for more ways to add some more necromancy spells to my list.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Song of the Dead converts Enchantment spells into Necromancy spells, and makes them work on undead.
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.
    A Core Only Fighter 20 that kills things

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Song of the Dead converts Enchantment spells into Necromancy spells, and makes them work on undead.
    Huh. That's really cool and kinda on-brand (i was considering dipping prestige bard to blackchanter to make undead ravers). A little disappointing that these spells cant then be used on living creatures, but there's plenty of great mind effecting buffs to choose from for a skeleton army. I like it.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Chain Spell May do less with save-allowing spells, but with Heighten Spell and free metamagic, you can push save DCs up pretty high. Plus, anything infested with a necrotic cyst has -2 to saves vs necromancy spells.

    Reach Chain Necrotic Cyst is expensive without a lot of metamagic reduction, but hits CL+1 targets and some of them are bound to fail the save.

    All of the spells that target creatures with necrotic cysts are valid to add Chain Spell to, as well. Chain Necrotic Eruption to do huge damage to a bunch of these victims and turn all that die from it into fireball-damage bombs that infect those hit by that damage with necrotic cysts. Note that nothing prevents multiple cysts in a victim; it doesnít stack the penalty, but it makes it harder to remove all of them. Also note that the higher-level spells that spread cysts force the save with the higher spell level DC.

    And Necrotic Empowerment can be Persisted, and Fell Energy can apply to it. If you have Kiss of the Vampire active (persistent or not) when you cast it, Fell Energy Necrotic Empowerment gives you +10 to several stats. (It does shut down your ability to cast other Mother Cyst spells while active, though, so be judicious.)

    Oh, and you seem to have picked up on itís power with buffs, but I want to point out that Chain Command Undead doesnít allow a save to targets without an intelligence score. So that makes it very good for controlling high numbers of high hit die skeletons and zombies.
    Last edited by Segev; 2020-02-23 at 09:34 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Chain Spell May do less with save-allowing spells, but with Heighten Spell and free metamagic, you can push save DCs up pretty high. Plus, anything infested with a necrotic cyst has -2 to saves vs necromancy spells.

    Reach Chain Necrotic Cyst is expensive without a lot of metamagic reduction, but hits CL+1 targets and some of them are bound to fail the save.

    All of the spells that target creatures with necrotic cysts are valid to add Chain Spell to, as well. Chain Necrotic Eruption to do huge damage to a bunch of these victims and turn all that die from it into fireball-damage bombs that infect those hit by that damage with necrotic cysts. Note that nothing prevents multiple cysts in a victim; it doesnít stack the penalty, but it makes it harder to remove all of them. Also note that the higher-level spells that spread cysts force the save with the higher spell level DC.

    And Necrotic Empowerment can be Persisted, and Fell Energy can apply to it. If you have Kiss of the Vampire active (persistent or not) when you cast it, Fell Energy Necrotic Empowerment gives you +10 to several stats. (It does shut down your ability to cast other Mother Cyst spells while active, though, so be judicious.)

    Oh, and you seem to have picked up on itís power with buffs, but I want to point out that Chain Command Undead doesnít allow a save to targets without an intelligence score. So that makes it very good for controlling high numbers of high hit die skeletons and zombies.
    I was always put off on the flavor of necrotic cysts, but these are some great results - I'll try to see if I can't work it into something I can tolerate. And that trick with command undead on unreasonably large zombies is great!

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    I was always put off on the flavor of necrotic cysts, but these are some great results - I'll try to see if I can't work it into something I can tolerate. And that trick with command undead on unreasonably large zombies is great!
    Yeah, itís both gross and putting something questionable in your own body.

    One last thing that occurs to me to mention: the seventh level spell in the Necrotic line is a Suggestion effect on a SUCCESSFUL save, and total enslavement in a failed one. Claiming that means even on failed saves you just mass suggested CL+1 victims.


    Iím on my phone so canít hunt it down effectively right now, but thereís a thread on this forum on the Fell Energy feat. Thereís some argument over how exactly it applies, but it may give you some more ideas.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2016

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Yeah, itís both gross and putting something questionable in your own body.

    One last thing that occurs to me to mention: the seventh level spell in the Necrotic line is a Suggestion effect on a SUCCESSFUL save, and total enslavement in a failed one. Claiming that means even on failed saves you just mass suggested CL+1 victims.


    Iím on my phone so canít hunt it down effectively right now, but thereís a thread on this forum on the Fell Energy feat. Thereís some argument over how exactly it applies, but it may give you some more ideas.
    that's really a powerful combo, but needs metamagic cost reduction in some way. chain spell sets the spell-grade 3lvls higher. Still very strong and achievable at higher lvls (and worth it imho).
    Shivering Tornado of Death Arcane Channeling Optimization
    Hammerdin of Moradin a guide to epic hammer throwing
    ShurikeNado a Shuriken Master build
    Almighty Claw of Malar monk/warlock gish (with minor DBZ-SSJ fluff)
    4 Driving Attack builds (incl. minor Berserk Manga *re-fluff*)
    TO: BoBaFeat Body outside Body & Void Disciple 4 to break the game.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    that's really a powerful combo, but needs metamagic cost reduction in some way. chain spell sets the spell-grade 3lvls higher. Still very strong and achievable at higher lvls (and worth it imho).
    Very true. The OP has metamagic mitigation, though, and if he didnít, Slaymates are from the same book as the Necrotic spell line.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Yeah, itís both gross and putting something questionable in your own body.

    One last thing that occurs to me to mention: the seventh level spell in the Necrotic line is a Suggestion effect on a SUCCESSFUL save, and total enslavement in a failed one. Claiming that means even on failed saves you just mass suggested CL+1 victims.


    Iím on my phone so canít hunt it down effectively right now, but thereís a thread on this forum on the Fell Energy feat. Thereís some argument over how exactly it applies, but it may give you some more ideas.
    Can I use the Fell Energy Feat along with the Song of the Dead feat to give fell-boosted heroism to my troopers? Can they still benefit from the morale bonus? I'll take a look for the forum.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    Can I use the Fell Energy Feat along with the Song of the Dead feat to give fell-boosted heroism to my troopers? Can they still benefit from the morale bonus? I'll take a look for the forum.
    Should work.

    Another good one for Chain Spell, which unfortunately doesnít benefit from necromancy-only metamagic mitigation, is Greater Magic Weapon. Bonus lasts for hours and at high level adds +4 or +5 to hit and damage.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2016

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    while we are at it - Chain Spell:
    - Daze (since it's a 0th grade spell, it's still useful at lvl5 to chain it as 3rd lvl spell)
    - Blind/Deafens
    - Charm Person/Monster useful against many low lvl enemies or just townsfolk^^
    Shivering Tornado of Death Arcane Channeling Optimization
    Hammerdin of Moradin a guide to epic hammer throwing
    ShurikeNado a Shuriken Master build
    Almighty Claw of Malar monk/warlock gish (with minor DBZ-SSJ fluff)
    4 Driving Attack builds (incl. minor Berserk Manga *re-fluff*)
    TO: BoBaFeat Body outside Body & Void Disciple 4 to break the game.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    while we are at it - Chain Spell:
    - Daze (since it's a 0th grade spell, it's still useful at lvl5 to chain it as 3rd lvl spell)
    - Blind/Deafens
    - Charm Person/Monster useful against many low lvl enemies or just townsfolk^^
    So the moral I'm taking away from this seems to be: put chain spell high on my list of priorities and consider the chaining potential of all my spells, got it.
    Last edited by Estradus; 2020-02-23 at 06:23 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    So the moral I'm taking away from this seems to be: put chain spell high on my list of priorities and consider the chaining potential of all my spells, got it.
    If I put black lore of moil on, say, chain daze, then it becomes a damaging spell and causes the chains to deal half damage, while also keeping the dc maxxed - is that logic correct?

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    If I put black lore of moil on, say, chain daze, then it becomes a damaging spell and causes the chains to deal half damage, while also keeping the dc maxxed - is that logic correct?
    I thought Chain Spell hit DCs and damage, if both were present.

    Upon looking it up, however... youíre exactly right in how that would work. It only hits DCs if thereís no damage.
    Last edited by Segev; 2020-02-23 at 08:13 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGirl

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    Okay, I hadn't heard of this Fell Energy one before, and its exactly one of those hidden gem feats I was hoping for.
    I;ve worked with a few buffmaster builds before so I know the extended shenanigans, but I'd always had a lot of trouble trying to utilize the chain metamagic. My mind always goes to "chain lightning" and its a damage dealer - but chain buffs? chain debuffs? chain utility? That's some good stuff.
    And thanks for cluing me in regarding the mother cyst feat, I've been looking for more ways to add some more necromancy spells to my list.
    https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...ng-buff-undead

    Yeah it is so under used I made a small guide for it. People have only been using it to boost hp with desecration but it can do soooo much more. Biggest part is save money equipping undead.


    Reserves of strength is another good feat if you can increase your caster level or break cap of low caps like magic missile or beauty's caress.


    What are your classes? You said you're interested based so I'm guessing game wizard and....?
    Last edited by Oberron; 2020-02-23 at 09:56 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberron View Post
    https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...ng-buff-undead

    Yeah it is so under used I made a small guide for it. People have only been using it to boost hp with desecration but it can do soooo much more. Biggest part is save money equipping undead.


    Reserves of strength is another good feat if you can increase your caster level or break cap of low caps like magic missile or beauty's caress.


    What are your classes? You said you're interested based so I'm guessing game wizard and....?
    Ah jeez. Classes. I collect a lot of 3rd party materials and spent many years making multiclass gish jack of all trades nightmares. I'd find lots of *interesting* classes but have to throw them away to get *that one ability I need*.

    I decided to turn to focusing on the many flavours of a single class instead of going in every direction at once.

    Lately I've been making characters using the Complete Control rules from dreamscarred press which has rules for calculating xp costs for individual class abilities and just buying them wholesale to build your characters from the ground up. I've been trying to find every weird class that fills the same sort of role - every weird 3rd party gadgety inventor class, or every weird 3rd party monk knockoff, or how many times can we make pirates?, etc, and only allowing myself to buy from those abilities. This is, predictably, me gathering every focused necromancer base and prestige class and seeing what happens. As a result, I've got a lot of classes! But some of them are more interesting than others? Most of the prestige class work will probably work in most builds but then I'd have to choose between my base necromancer classes. (I'm good at finding classes, I'm not as good at knowing all the spell options, thats why I'm here for help)

    Base classes I'm drawing abilities from:
    Dread Necro, obvz, along with death master for a couple of bonuses
    Necromancer from Lords of the Night: Zombies (Green Ronin) has a ton of interesting abilities - detect undead at will and spontaneously cast necromancy spells the same way a cleric spontaneously casts c/i wounds spells is nice
    Devoted Necromancer from the previously mentioned Dark Arts of Necromancy, possibly the sketchiest sourcebook I'm using, but gets me the augmented necromancy metamagic ability i'm having the most fun with
    i didnt get anything from wizard variant abilities because most of them are copied or better done in other classes
    Spellcasting is specifically taken from Death Master, with the bonus of 1: several means of adding to this spell list from classes (see below) and 2: being allowed to research other book's necromancy spells due to being kind of a wizard.

    Prestige Classes: Some of these require divine magic, some arcane, just get yourself southern magician and qualify for everything like a boss.
    Graven One and Necromancer from the origninal Warcraft d20 settings, because they both add very nice spells to my spell list, and graven one lets me do things like rip supernatural abilities out of one undead minion I've created and staple them onto another? Which can get silly.
    Crypt Lord from Relics and Rituals, as stated in OP, lets me cast those transmutations
    Corpse Caster from Eldritch Sorcery by Necromancer Games lets me do some cool things like cast some spells with the origin point being from a corpse
    Death Lord from Magic of Arcanis is frontloaded with great necromancer abilities, like the necromantic focus ability and an ability called "You Are Mine" that basically adds your highest casting stat to your caster level for the purposes of control with animate dead - so, with Dread Necro it becomes (CL + [highest cast]) * (4+[cha]). Its like squaring that benefit.

    I've got a bunch of other classes penciled in but a lot of them don't add much. If you wanted to follow in my footsteps with a normal build system i'd pull from those.

    Race is similarly a mess of uncouth sources. Goal was to go to +3 la so i could buy it off later.
    Blood Elf (warcraft campaign setting), +1 la, +2 int and dex, -2 con, +1 caster level for arcane spells, adds a collection of summoning and calling spells to spell list, takes longer to prepare spells in the morning.
    Half-ogre (whatever version is in the crystal keep index), +1 LA - unusual decision to say the least but it'll make sense. lets you count as a giant and an ogre. +4 str, -2 int and cha.
    Ogre Mage Template (WoW campaign setting (different from wc setting in that they made it kind of a standalone instead of expanding 3.x)) ogres or ogre-blood only, +1 la, +4 int, +2 wis, +6 cha, your racial hit dice count as caster levels in a class of your choice (not applicable here but nice)
    primal giant (eberron xendrik, giants only): +0 la, -4 str, -2 con, +4 int and cha, +1 sla caster level.
    I did not minmax those ability scores as hard as i could have.

    TLDR: Don't ask me about what my builds look like. This character is spread across 6 separate google documents and she's only level 6 so far.

    Edit: Thanks for that link btw, it looks like a great tool.

    Edit Again: if I wind up with the xp for it, a dash of bardic music, prestige bard spell list, song of the dead and blackchanter (arcanis campaign setting, lets you affect undead with bardic music) just to complete the skeleton rave aesthetic.
    Last edited by Estradus; 2020-02-24 at 12:48 AM. Reason: Clarity

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGirl

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    TLDR: Don't ask me about what my builds look like. This character is spread across 6 separate google documents and she's only level 6 so far.

    Edit: Thanks for that link btw, it looks like a great tool.
    Np, hope you enjoy.

    A few other useful feats are the necromatic feats: heightened strength, heightened agility, grave born warrior

    The str and agility give a +4 untyped bonus to str and dex respectively basically at the cost of counting the hd of the undead as one higher for control. Grave born warrior gives the undead any feat it can use. Power attack or martial study for a stance is really good. It also counts the HD for control as one higher. There is another feat that gives it an actual HD and a +1 tohit and damage but I don't remember the name.

    As for undead themselves are you able to cherry pick your bodies or what? When is doubt shape stone + stone to flesh gives you a body of pretty much anything.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2016

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    If I put black lore of moil on, say, chain daze, then it becomes a damaging spell and causes the chains to deal half damage, while also keeping the dc maxxed - is that logic correct?
    difficult, cause.. since Daze is lvl 0 "black lore of moil" will add 0 damage. If you heighten Daze to lvl1, there is no room left to argue imho.
    Shivering Tornado of Death Arcane Channeling Optimization
    Hammerdin of Moradin a guide to epic hammer throwing
    ShurikeNado a Shuriken Master build
    Almighty Claw of Malar monk/warlock gish (with minor DBZ-SSJ fluff)
    4 Driving Attack builds (incl. minor Berserk Manga *re-fluff*)
    TO: BoBaFeat Body outside Body & Void Disciple 4 to break the game.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    difficult, cause.. since Daze is lvl 0 "black lore of moil" will add 0 damage. If you heighten Daze to lvl1, there is no room left to argue imho.
    Right, forgot you were looking at applying it to a level 0 spell. Gruftzwerg is right: heighten it to level 1, then chain and Moil it, and the damage will be halved by the DC unaffected. This does make it cost 25 gp/casting, and the time it takes to prep the 25 gp bone-rune. Also, a level 4 spell slot, before mitigation.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberron View Post
    Np, hope you enjoy.

    A few other useful feats are the necromatic feats: heightened strength, heightened agility, grave born warrior

    The str and agility give a +4 untyped bonus to str and dex respectively basically at the cost of counting the hd of the undead as one higher for control. Grave born warrior gives the undead any feat it can use. Power attack or martial study for a stance is really good. It also counts the HD for control as one higher. There is another feat that gives it an actual HD and a +1 tohit and damage but I don't remember the name.

    As for undead themselves are you able to cherry pick your bodies or what? When is doubt shape stone + stone to flesh gives you a body of pretty much anything.
    hmmm... on one hand, those increase hd for the purposes of control level - on the other hand, if I make masterwork skeletons (4hd and 18 base str, hollowfaust: city of necromancers) and combine the necromancer's ring with the animators band (you can wear both rings as 1 ring slot, relics and rituals 2 and hollowfaust respectively) i can "control any superior or mwk skeleton .. as if it had 1 hd."

    I don't want to invest in too many "multiple sources of the same thing" though, so heightened str and heightened agility are out - corpsecrafting and dread necro empowerment have that covered, but the feat one is interesting and different, i'll definitely play around with that and see what happens - can even put your minions to practical use instead of just combat boosts if you want to.

    The ravenloft undead focused expansion (van richtens guide to the walking dead) has a skill called reign undead (cha), that, among its animal handling but for mindless undead, lets you "train" mindless undead in complex tasks (and simple, but noone cares about that). It takes 2 months (3 hours per day) and a dc 25 skill check to train a number of undead equal to your int *score*, but it gives them a modifier to any profession sub-skill equal to 1/2 your reign undead skill modifier. Sure, it wastes 2 months, but then you've got 22 mindless zombies out there mining with +20 profession miner bonuses, or +20 profession construction worker paving your roads or building your towers. Why make war... when you can make *empires*?

    Also, there any feats that reduce how long skills take? I'm asking.... for a friend.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Right, forgot you were looking at applying it to a level 0 spell. Gruftzwerg is right: heighten it to level 1, then chain and Moil it, and the damage will be halved by the DC unaffected. This does make it cost 25 gp/casting, and the time it takes to prep the 25 gp bone-rune. Also, a level 4 spell slot, before mitigation.
    Ah, its based on spell level? Missed that.

    Though, I do ignore spell components on necromancy spells - can i ignore the spell component through that and then say, moil chain cause fear or moil chain blindness?

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    Ah, its based on spell level? Missed that.

    Though, I do ignore spell components on necromancy spells - can i ignore the spell component through that and then say, moil chain cause fear or moil chain blindness?
    Can you ignore ALL spell components, or just inexpensive ones? IS there a cap?

    It's questionable whether you can ignore a component that is part of making the metamagic apply; you'll have to talk to your DM.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGirl

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    hmmm... on one hand, those increase hd for the purposes of control level - on the other hand, if I make masterwork skeletons (4hd and 18 base str, hollowfaust: city of necromancers) and combine the necromancer's ring with the animators band (you can wear both rings as 1 ring slot, relics and rituals 2 and hollowfaust respectively) i can "control any superior or mwk skeleton .. as if it had 1 hd."

    I don't want to invest in too many "multiple sources of the same thing" though, so heightened str and heightened agility are out - corpsecrafting and dread necro empowerment have that covered, but the feat one is interesting and different, i'll definitely play around with that and see what happens - can even put your minions to practical use instead of just combat boosts if you want to.

    The ravenloft undead focused expansion (van richtens guide to the walking dead) has a skill called reign undead (cha), that, among its animal handling but for mindless undead, lets you "train" mindless undead in complex tasks (and simple, but noone cares about that). It takes 2 months (3 hours per day) and a dc 25 skill check to train a number of undead equal to your int *score*, but it gives them a modifier to any profession sub-skill equal to 1/2 your reign undead skill modifier. Sure, it wastes 2 months, but then you've got 22 mindless zombies out there mining with +20 profession miner bonuses, or +20 profession construction worker paving your roads or building your towers. Why make war... when you can make *empires*?

    Also, there any feats that reduce how long skills take? I'm asking.... for a friend.
    Why not just give the undead skill focus feat and then give them an item of skill enchancement from artificer infusion (slap on fell energy for even higher bonuses and it has no cap). No need for the two months downtime.


    Edit:corpsecrafting and dread necromancer's empower won't stack since they are both enchancement bonus to str and dex
    Last edited by Oberron; 2020-02-24 at 07:13 PM.

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2013

    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberron View Post
    Why not just give the undead skill focus feat and then give them an item of skill enchancement from artificer infusion (slap on fell energy for even higher bonuses and it has no cap). No need for the two months downtime.


    Edit:corpsecrafting and dread necromancer's empower won't stack since they are both enchancement bonus to str and dex
    Well, that rulebook is based off of 3.0 mechanics, and the terminology is almost identical as in handle animal. In 3.0 teaching animals a skill took 2 months, in 3.5 it takes 1 week. Ergo, it could reasonably be argued that in modern parlaince the reign undead skill would only require 1 week of downtime. Plus, I can have as many trained skeletons as I can control, but I'm going to run out of spell slots for skill enhancement. Also, I don't have have artificer encantments. Even if I did, don't those target the gear, not the undead? I'm not sure if fell energy applies here.
    Last edited by Estradus; 2020-02-24 at 11:33 PM.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •