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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Slimy Spell seems like it would be very good with the sort of single-target spells you're using.

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    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    Well, that rulebook is based off of 3.0 mechanics, and the terminology is almost identical as in handle animal. In 3.0 teaching animals a skill took 2 months, in 3.5 it takes 1 week. Ergo, it could reasonably be argued that in modern parlaince the reign undead skill would only require 1 week of downtime. Plus, I can have as many trained skeletons as I can control, but I'm going to run out of spell slots for skill enhancement. Also, I don't have have artificer encantments. Even if I did, don't those target the gear, not the undead? I'm not sure if fell energy applies here.
    Fell energy doesn't care what the spell targets only if an undead is getting a bonus from it.

    A single dip into tainted sorcerer fixes any spell problems. (Along with either a ritual to gain. Evil subtype or become undead yourself)


    As for artificer infusions, since you're buying abilities anyway you might as well make your own spell for your wizard book that does the same thing but a lvl higher.
    Last edited by Oberron; 2020-02-25 at 12:48 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    Well, that rulebook is based off of 3.0 mechanics, and the terminology is almost identical as in handle animal. In 3.0 teaching animals a skill took 2 months, in 3.5 it takes 1 week. Ergo, it could reasonably be argued that in modern parlaince the reign undead skill would only require 1 week of downtime. Plus, I can have as many trained skeletons as I can control, but I'm going to run out of spell slots for skill enhancement. Also, I don't have have artificer encantments. Even if I did, don't those target the gear, not the undead? I'm not sure if fell energy applies here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oberron View Post
    Fell energy doesn't care what the spell targets only if an undead is getting a bonus from it.

    A single dip into tainted sorcerer fixes any spell problems. (Along with either a ritual to gain. Evil subtype or become undead yourself)


    As for artificer infusions, since you're buying abilities anyway you might as well make your own spell for your wizard book that does the same thing but a lvl higher.
    I'm not going to argue the case for or against, here, but Oberron has an extremely favorable-to-the-necromancer reading of the Fell Energy feat. I do not agree with his assessment in all cases. You're going to want to discuss it with your DM for practical use. He may be just fine with fell energy magic weapon and fell energy greater magic weapon applying the extra +2 to attacks made by undead with the enchanted weapons, or he may not.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Can you ignore ALL spell components, or just inexpensive ones? IS there a cap?

    It's questionable whether you can ignore a component that is part of making the metamagic apply; you'll have to talk to your DM.
    As stated in OP, I ignore expensive spell components for necromancy spells - though only when using my casting focus. You are right though, ignoring this bonus component does seems like an abuse. Plus, having a bag full of runed bones sounds like fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Slimy Spell seems like it would be very good with the sort of single-target spells you're using.
    Its interesting, but it seems ineffective. Only being able to nauseate 1 target for 1 round seems like poor crowd control - which is a shame, it could have been kind of fun to slimerify everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberron View Post
    Fell energy doesn't care what the spell targets only if an undead is getting a bonus from it.

    A single dip into tainted sorcerer fixes any spell problems. (Along with either a ritual to gain. Evil subtype or become undead yourself)

    As for artificer infusions, since you're buying abilities anyway you might as well make your own spell for your wizard book that does the same thing but a lvl higher.
    I disagree with this interpretation of fell energy, but its not a big deal. I have plenty of weird 3rd party spells to work with in place of artificer infusions.

    I would appreciate elaborating on this tainted sorcerer dip - which spell problems? Do you mean the Spell Components? I do have a couple of other ways around that as well, but I'll keep the option on the table.

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I'm not going to argue the case for or against, here, but Oberron has an extremely favorable-to-the-necromancer reading of the Fell Energy feat. I do not agree with his assessment in all cases. You're going to want to discuss it with your DM for practical use. He may be just fine with fell energy magic weapon and fell energy greater magic weapon applying the extra +2 to attacks made by undead with the enchanted weapons, or he may not.
    Yeah, I did get that impression reading through his forum post. :P I've had experience with like, abjurant champion / ability enhancer / qedeshot's kiss before so I've got some ideas built in on the mechanics of this feat? Regardless of if my interpretation is correct. Though even if I can't use Fell Energy Magic Weapon, I can totally use Fell Energy Magic Fang.

    Edit: Theoretically if I used one of the many "graft swords to your skeletons" mechanics then fell energy magic weapon would totally be targeting an undead, that would allow you to sidestep the entire problem.
    Last edited by Estradus; 2020-02-25 at 12:19 PM. Reason: Derp typo

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post

    I would appreciate elaborating on this tainted sorcerer dip - which spell problems? Do you mean the Spell Components? I do have a couple of other ways around that as well, but I'll keep the option on the table.



    Yeah, I did get that impression reading through his forum post. :P I've had experience with like, abjurant champion / ability enhancer / qedeshot's kiss before so I've got some ideas built in on the mechanics of this feat? Regardless of if my interpretation is correct. Though even if I can't use Fell Energy Magic Weapon, I can totally use Fell Energy Magic Fang.

    Edit: Theoretically if I used one of the many "graft swords to your skeletons" mechanics then fell energy magic weapon would totally be targeting an undead, that would allow you to sidestep the entire problem.
    Use it or not it's your character. But I would like to hear your reasoning https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...1#post23880361. If you don't mind. So far no one has been able to make a consistent counter argument to why it wouldn't work but that's not the topic here.

    As for spell problem I mean having enough spells. Tainted sorcerer changes all your spells to run off taint instead of your primary casting stat including bonus spells. You gain taint each time you cast a spell (with a DC to negative it if you want). It also provides tainted metamagic and other very powerful abilities for a single dip. If you don't go the cheese route of being undead or having [evil] added to you you will have to worry about to much taint eventually.

    Also magic fang can only be used on living creatures unless one of your other 3rd party stuff side steps that.
    Last edited by Oberron; 2020-02-25 at 12:56 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    As stated in OP, I ignore expensive spell components for necromancy spells - though only when using my casting focus. You are right though, ignoring this bonus component does seems like an abuse. Plus, having a bag full of runed bones sounds like fun.
    Using magic items as a template, including enough gp cost to cast a spell 50 or 100 times with an expensive component arguably could make a magic item that acts as a focus that replaces that particular component. But that's definitely reading into the rules and homebrewing. The casting focus overriding the need for these runes is questionable, but that doesn't mean it's not valid. It just means you should talk to your DM to be sure.

    I agree that the rune bag sounds cool, but it WILL get expensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    Yeah, I did get that impression reading through his forum post. :P I've had experience with like, abjurant champion / ability enhancer / qedeshot's kiss before so I've got some ideas built in on the mechanics of this feat? Regardless of if my interpretation is correct. Though even if I can't use Fell Energy Magic Weapon, I can totally use Fell Energy Magic Fang.

    Edit: Theoretically if I used one of the many "graft swords to your skeletons" mechanics then fell energy magic weapon would totally be targeting an undead, that would allow you to sidestep the entire problem.
    Sadly, magic fang requires a living target. Though researching a variant for use on skeletons should be well within a necromancer wizard's purview!

    What mechanics are these for grafting swords onto skeletons? I'm not familiar, and they sound intriguing. (I prefer bows for my skeletons, though, due to their enhanced dex.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberron View Post
    Use it or not it's your character. But I would like to hear your reasoning https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...1#post23880361. If you don't mind. So far no one has been able to make a consistent counter argument to why it wouldn't work but that's not the topic here.
    I am a little insulted; I think I gave a perfectly good counterargument. I do also see where you're coming from, though, which is why I rate it "questionable," rather than just saying it doesn't work. "Questionable" means "talk to your DM to see how he chooses to interpret it," not "DMs would have to be tricked, or house rule it, to make it work that way."

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberron View Post
    As for spell problem I mean having enough spells. Tainted sorcerer changes all your spells to run off taint instead of your primary casting stat including bonus spells. You gain taint each time you cast a spell (with a DC to negative it if you want). It also provides tainted metamagic and other very powerful abilities for a single dip. If you don't go the cheese route of being undead or having [evil] added to you you will have to worry about to much taint eventually.
    Tainted Sorcerer strikes me as badly written because it's either unplayable because the taint piles on so fast that you lose the character in a few sessions, or it's horribly broken because the taint piles on so fast that your DCs are unbeatable and you never have to worry about downsides.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberron View Post
    Also magic fang can only be used on living creatures unless one of your other 3rd party stuff side steps that.
    If he's got 3pp stuff to bypass it, or better yet PF or 3.5 first-party stuff, I'm interested to hear about it. I do think a spell he researches that is "greater magic fang, but for my undead minions" would be doable, though.

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    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post

    I am a little insulted; I think I gave a perfectly good counterargument. I do also see where you're coming from, though, which is why I rate it "questionable," rather than just saying it doesn't work. "Questionable" means "talk to your DM to see how he chooses to interpret it," not "DMs would have to be tricked, or house rule it, to make it work that way."

    Tainted Sorcerer strikes me as badly written because it's either unplayable because the taint piles on so fast that you lose the character in a few sessions, or it's horribly broken because the taint piles on so fast that your DCs are unbeatable and you never have to worry about downsides.

    If he's got 3pp stuff to bypass it, or better yet PF or 3.5 first-party stuff, I'm interested to hear about it. I do think a spell he researches that is "greater magic fang, but for my undead minions" would be doable, though.
    No offense ment. I do have some questions but I'll pm you about it.

    As for tainted sorcerer. Yes on both counts. It takes a little longer unless you are using all your spells. But it is prime cheese for easy DC boost, and arbitrary number of spells.

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    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    Its interesting, but it seems ineffective. Only being able to nauseate 1 target for 1 round seems like poor crowd control - which is a shame, it could have been kind of fun to slimerify everyone.
    If you're already using a lot of single-target spells, though, it works great. Keep in mind that nausea is very similar to dazing: it's extremely difficult to be immune to, and it basically forces you to skip a whole turn. So it is quite potent.

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    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Okay seems like theres a whole lot going on here now...

    Since a lot of people mentioned it I'm not going to add this to quotesd text: didn't realize magic fang was living only. That sounds like propaganda spread by the druids and makes me wonder why its on the Death Master's spell list. Given that it is on said spell list and most likely intended to be used on my undead what with their natural weapons all up in everyones buisiness, I can probably just convince my DM to give me a pass on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberron View Post
    Use it or not it's your character. But I would like to hear your reasoning https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...1#post23880361. If you don't mind. So far no one has been able to make a consistent counter argument to why it wouldn't work but that's not the topic here.

    As for spell problem I mean having enough spells. Tainted sorcerer changes all your spells to run off taint instead of your primary casting stat including bonus spells. You gain taint each time you cast a spell (with a DC to negative it if you want). It also provides tainted metamagic and other very powerful abilities for a single dip. If you don't go the cheese route of being undead or having [evil] added to you you will have to worry about to much taint eventually.
    Okay, so my thoughts on the Fell energy stuff... (Ironically, I dont want to be the one to necro an old thread!)

    Technically, just looking at just the totals on a stat sheet, the skeleton's numbers are effected by magic weapon, but the effect is on the weapon, not the skeleton. By my understanding of spell targeting, what a spell "affects" is the targets of the spell or the area it covers. When Fell Energy gives a +2 bonus, it is to what the spell effects. Bulls strength effects a creature to be stronger, magic weapon effects a weapon to be magickier. Sure, an undead may be using the weapon, but the effect is on the weapon, not the undead. The undead's stats are not modified by magic weapon - the weapon's stats are. The weapons stats effect the skeletons damage and to hit, but theres a middleman in the form of a sword. Like, the effect of burning hands is xd4 fire damage in a 15 foot cone, the house burning down afterwards is just physics.

    ... While I'm at it, I also have qualms with your multiplying of the bonus for spells with scaling effects on your forum post as well. Fell Energy: "any numerical bonus granted by the spell is increased by +2." the numerical bonus granted by shield of faith is 2+1/6 cl - so the bonus granted by the spell at level 1 is +2, the numerical bonus granted by the spell at level 18 is +5. This is what I would read to be the "Numerical bonus of the spell. You've probably heard all this before and if your dm lets you, thats great, you just requested my understanding of it.

    As for tainted sorcerer, I have lore reasons for not wanting to go [evil] or undead with this character, so I'll probably wind up passing on that. In short: the character isn't evil. Its Eberron, baby! Using evil tools dont make an evil person, but a ritual to get the evil subtype would make the character actually evil. And being undead would snuff out the spark of divinity (blood of vol stuff). Also, I've never seen a pc play a necromancer whos actually not undead, so mostly its a gimmick thing to see what happens at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    What mechanics are these for grafting swords onto skeletons? I'm not familiar, and they sound intriguing. (I prefer bows for my skeletons, though, due to their enhanced dex.)

    If he's got 3pp stuff to bypass it, or better yet PF or 3.5 first-party stuff, I'm interested to hear about it. I do think a spell he researches that is "greater magic fang, but for my undead minions" would be doable, though.
    Off the top of my head, the Legends and Lairs book "Monsters Handbook" has lots of great upgrades for undead that necromancers can use, including a system called necromantic modifications. It has to be done before animating, but basically with a heal check you can splice in (or attach, if its a skeleton) more parts, like extra limbs, extra heads, built in weapons or armor plating - the ones that add more bones do increase their hit dice.

    The book also features the Relentless Undead template that can be added when animating or creating an undead at the cost of more onyx and gives fast healing, bonus hd, removable limbs that can then sneak around, and free ranks in bluff to play dead with!

    Van Richten's guide to the walking dead has special bone weapons that fuse to undead's hands and use the weapons stats to replace those of one of their natural attacks? Theres probably more, but by the time you have an army its almost trivial to afford to equip them with basic weaponry though, so going for spending time grafting them to your skeletons hands or fusing sharpened giant's ribs to them seems like a waste of effort and giant ribs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    If you're already using a lot of single-target spells, though, it works great. Keep in mind that nausea is very similar to dazing: it's extremely difficult to be immune to, and it basically forces you to skip a whole turn. So it is quite potent.
    I sort of am looking at those spells? But mostly in the context of exploring what i can chain. I'll keep it in mind though, there are probably situations where i'll need to stunlock a person.
    Last edited by Estradus; 2020-02-25 at 09:10 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    While I'm at it, I also have qualms with your multiplying of the bonus for spells with scaling effects on your forum post as well. Fell Energy: "any numerical bonus granted by the spell is increased by +2." the numerical bonus granted by shield of faith is 2+1/6 cl - so the bonus granted by the spell at level 1 is +2, the numerical bonus granted by the spell at level 18 is +5. This is what I would read to be the "Numerical bonus of the spell. You've probably heard all this before and if your dm lets you, thats great, you just requested my understanding of it.
    Yeah, that's another point I disagree with Oberron on. I see the logic he's using, but I disagree with some of his assumptions. The way I'd run it is as Fell Energy GMW making the lowest-CL version give +3 (if you can GET it cast at that level), and the highest-CL version be a +7. I think +7 to hit and damage on multiple undead soldiers is still pretty good and worth +1 spell level. Or 1 level of mitigation, whichever.


    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    Off the top of my head, the Legends and Lairs book "Monsters Handbook" has lots of great upgrades for undead that necromancers can use, including a system called necromantic modifications. It has to be done before animating, but basically with a heal check you can splice in (or attach, if its a skeleton) more parts, like extra limbs, extra heads, built in weapons or armor plating - the ones that add more bones do increase their hit dice.

    The book also features the Relentless Undead template that can be added when animating or creating an undead at the cost of more onyx and gives fast healing, bonus hd, removable limbs that can then sneak around, and free ranks in bluff to play dead with!

    Van Richten's guide to the walking dead has special bone weapons that fuse to undead's hands and use the weapons stats to replace those of one of their natural attacks? Theres probably more, but by the time you have an army its almost trivial to afford to equip them with basic weaponry though, so going for spending time grafting them to your skeletons hands or fusing sharpened giant's ribs to them seems like a waste of effort and giant ribs.



    I sort of am looking at those spells? But mostly in the context of exploring what i can chain. I'll keep it in mind though, there are probably situations where i'll need to stunlock a person.
    Interesting. I think I prefer PF's bloody skeletons, but relentless is pretty interesting. I may have to hunt down those books.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Yeah, that's another point I disagree with Oberron on. I see the logic he's using, but I disagree with some of his assumptions. The way I'd run it is as Fell Energy GMW making the lowest-CL version give +3 (if you can GET it cast at that level), and the highest-CL version be a +7. I think +7 to hit and damage on multiple undead soldiers is still pretty good and worth +1 spell level. Or 1 level of mitigation, whichever.




    Interesting. I think I prefer PF's bloody skeletons, but relentless is pretty interesting. I may have to hunt down those books.
    I never got into Pathfinder, what are these bloody skeletons and are there any other valuable secrets to utilize?

    My go-to last time i made a necromancer was Mwk Skeletons with +4 arms, +4 legs, +2 skulls (more all packed on than bajillion limbed multiattack mess for simplicity) with the relentless template, they had 12 total hit dice, +15ft move speed, could use large weapons 1 handed and still apply 1.5 str as though two-handed because their hands were technically 3 hands, and they could be controlled as though they were 1 hd each because of the necromancers ring + animators band.

    I try to keep my 3rd party resources divided between reliable publishers and unreliable, and these are technically in my reliable folder - though I don't imagine these were intended to be combined like this.

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    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    Okay, so my thoughts on the Fell energy stuff... (Ironically, I dont want to be the one to necro an old thread!)

    Technically, just looking at just the totals on a stat sheet, the skeleton's numbers are effected by magic weapon, but the effect is on the weapon, not the skeleton. By my understanding of spell targeting, what a spell "affects" is the targets of the spell or the area it covers. When Fell Energy gives a +2 bonus, it is to what the spell effects. Bulls strength effects a creature to be stronger, magic weapon effects a weapon to be magickier. Sure, an undead may be using the weapon, but the effect is on the weapon, not the undead. The undead's stats are not modified by magic weapon - the weapon's stats are. The weapons stats effect the skeletons damage and to hit, but theres a middleman in the form of a sword. Like, the effect of burning hands is xd4 fire damage in a 15 foot cone, the house burning down afterwards is just physics.

    ... While I'm at it, I also have qualms with your multiplying of the bonus for spells with scaling effects on your forum post as well. Fell Energy: "any numerical bonus granted by the spell is increased by +2." the numerical bonus granted by shield of faith is 2+1/6 cl - so the bonus granted by the spell at level 1 is +2, the numerical bonus granted by the spell at level 18 is +5. This is what I would read to be the "Numerical bonus of the spell. You've probably heard all this before and if your dm lets you, thats great, you just requested my understanding of it.
    mechanically the undead wielding the weapon does has its stats affected. the bonus from magic weapon applies to the attacker's to-hit roll and damage roll. There are plenty of spells that target something else but affects other things,. A bonus given to a creature directly (bull's strength in your example) or indirectly (magic weapon, desecrate, magic circle) is still giving that bonus to the creature. Even if you want to try to use fluff it still works just from the description of fell energy "You add a dose of raw necromantic energy to your beneficial spell, making it especially effective for undead creatures." It makes the spell more effective for undead. says nothing about the undead has to be the target of it, same for the rules text of it. Any metamagic feat that needs the spell to target to work very specificly says so. Fell energy does not have such wording and goes out of its way by using affect instead of effect or target.

    As for the multiplying of the bonus i'm just using the same logic people have used with it and desecrate for +3 bonus hp/HD which no one seems to have a problem with even though it doesn't target undead (it targets an area) either. Even Segev thinks a fell desecrate adds +3/HD or +6/hd if an alter is nearby (unless that view point has been changed then my mistake for putting words in their mouth).

    We can even look at another feat from the same source(dragon compendium) that does a similar thing but is very differently worded "Ability enchancer" "Your helpful transmutation spells aid you more than normal.
    Any transmutation spell you cast that enhances ability scores increases the ability scores by +2 more than it normally does. For example, casting bull's strength with this feat grants the subject a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, instead of the usual +4 enhancement bonus."

    Because the fluff description says that it "aids you more than normal" does that mean it only works on transmutation spells you cast on yourself? Does it not work on spells that target an area but buffs people inside the area?

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Yeah, that's another point I disagree with Oberron on. I see the logic he's using, but I disagree with some of his assumptions. The way I'd run it is as Fell Energy GMW making the lowest-CL version give +3 (if you can GET it cast at that level), and the highest-CL version be a +7. I think +7 to hit and damage on multiple undead soldiers is still pretty good and worth +1 spell level. Or 1 level of mitigation, whichever.
    As for the multiplying of the bonus i'm just using the same logic people have used with it and desecrate for +3 bonus hp/HD which no one seems to have a problem with even though it doesn't target undead (it targets an area) either. Even you think a fell desecrate adds +3/HD or +6/hd if an alter is nearby but said that its different somehow but didn't show any rules to really support it(unless that view point has been changed then my mistake for putting words in your mouth).


    Edit to stay on topic: the varients from book of bad latin has some good options too. I'm a fan of the solider skeleton for range. have a mixture of large and medium zombies in checker board pattern

    XX
    XX= 1 large zombie
    m= medium zombie

    mmXXmmXXmm
    mmXXmmXXmm
    XXmmXXmmXX
    XXmmXXmmXX
    mmXXmmXXmm
    mmXXmmXXmm

    this gives the large zombies up to +11 to-hit and AC and the medium zombies up to +6 to-hit and AC (only 2 short from being surrounded by all medium) plus weapon focus for any weapon it uses and combat reflexes
    Last edited by Oberron; 2020-02-25 at 11:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberron View Post
    mechanically the undead wielding the weapon does has its stats affected. the bonus from magic weapon applies to the attacker's to-hit roll and damage roll. There are plenty of spells that target something else but affects other things,. A bonus given to a creature directly (bull's strength in your example) or indirectly (magic weapon, desecrate, magic circle) is still giving that bonus to the creature. Even if you want to try to use fluff it still works just from the description of fell energy "You add a dose of raw necromantic energy to your beneficial spell, making it especially effective for undead creatures." It makes the spell more effective for undead. says nothing about the undead has to be the target of it, same for the rules text of it. Any metamagic feat that needs the spell to target to work very specificly says so. Fell energy does not have such wording and goes out of its way by using affect instead of effect or target.

    As for the multiplying of the bonus i'm just using the same logic people have used with it and desecrate for +3 bonus hp/HD which no one seems to have a problem with even though it doesn't target undead (it targets an area) either. Even Segev thinks a fell desecrate adds +3/HD or +6/hd if an alter is nearby (unless that view point has been changed then my mistake for putting words in their mouth).

    We can even look at another feat from the same source(dragon compendium) that does a similar thing but is very differently worded "Ability enchancer" "Your helpful transmutation spells aid you more than normal.
    Any transmutation spell you cast that enhances ability scores increases the ability scores by +2 more than it normally does. For example, casting bull's strength with this feat grants the subject a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, instead of the usual +4 enhancement bonus."

    Because the fluff description says that it "aids you more than normal" does that mean it only works on transmutation spells you cast on yourself? Does it not work on spells that target an area but buffs people inside the area?



    As for the multiplying of the bonus i'm just using the same logic people have used with it and desecrate for +3 bonus hp/HD which no one seems to have a problem with even though it doesn't target undead (it targets an area) either. Even you think a fell desecrate adds +3/HD or +6/hd if an alter is nearby but said that its different somehow but didn't show any rules to really support it(unless that view point has been changed then my mistake for putting words in your mouth).


    Edit to stay on topic: the varients from book of bad latin has some good options too. I'm a fan of the solider skeleton for range. have a mixture of large and medium zombies in checker board pattern

    XX
    XX= 1 large zombie
    m= medium zombie

    mmXXmmXXmm
    mmXXmmXXmm
    XXmmXXmmXX
    XXmmXXmmXX
    mmXXmmXXmm
    mmXXmmXXmm

    this gives the large zombies up to +11 to-hit and AC and the medium zombies up to +6 to-hit and AC (only 2 short from being surrounded by all medium) plus weapon focus for any weapon it uses and combat reflexes
    All those other examples (desecrate, magic circle, etc) say they have effects on the creatures inside it, not the objects - hence, the creature they affect is undead, and therefore benefits from fell energy. The comment re:ability enhancer is a culdesac and doesn't really do anything to the arguement. The phrase "undead creatures the spell affects" isn't fluff text, as you compared to in ability enhancer; its descriptive text, it is detailing what spells are eligible for the feat: spells that place an effect on creatures when those creatures are undead..

    I personally dont feel 100% comfortable with using it with desecrate like that either, but I would at least accept it. It multiplies because its effectively working as a constitution score replacement for undead, and would further increase the hp based on said HD. The bonus is a "hit points per hd" bonus, which puts it into a bit of a grey zone, but it leans towards applicable. I usually wind up forgetting about desecrate entirely though.

    For a minute I thought you had a 3rd party book I'd never heard of, and when I looked it up its apparently perfectly acceptable Latin and the people who decried it either don't know Latin or never read page 4 of the book. Does From the Books of the Dead actually include a way to make soldier skeletons? Because thats a neat arrangement but not sure if I can use it.

    Incidentally, while we're on necromancy build stuff, here's some extra corpsecraft-esque feats from my sources
    Magic and Mayhem: Undead Supremacy, requires spell focus necromancy for undead you make get +4 enchancement to dex and bonus HP as a construct
    Theocracy of Canceri: Augment Animation. Prereq cl4, undead you create get +2 enh to str, toughness bonus feat, +1 luck bonus to ac, and cost +50% gp to raise
    Encyclopedia Arcana: Necromancy: Augment Undead, undead you make get +1 hp/hd/ 3 caster levels, but i do file mongoose publishing on the sketchier side of things.
    .... I remember multiple feats that gave your undead maximized hp/hd, but cannot find any of them now.
    If you're undead yourself, there are good feats for undead pc's in the WoW horde guide, specifically:
    Mind over Matter: Adds your cha modifier to your hit dice per hp, as you would con
    Mental Stamina: Use cha in place of con wherever else it would be applicable (play a dashing, tireless, undead barbarian!)
    Undead Soul: can get ressed and still come back as an undead

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    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Bloody skeletons are one of the variants PF has for basic skeletons and zombies. They cost control cap as if they had twice as many HD. This is not a problem if using Command Undead to control them.

    https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/mo...eleton-bloody/

    As PF undead, they have d8 instead of d12 HD and get Cha to their hp. Converting back to d12 and no stat bonus is not too hard, though.

    The big thing is the ability to pull themselves back together after being destroyed.

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    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    All those other examples (desecrate, magic circle, etc) say they have effects on the creatures inside it, not the objects - hence, the creature they affect is undead, and therefore benefits from fell energy. The comment re:ability enhancer is a culdesac and doesn't really do anything to the arguement. The phrase "undead creatures the spell affects" isn't fluff text, as you compared to in ability enhancer; its descriptive text, it is detailing what spells are eligible for the feat: spells that place an effect on creatures when those creatures are undead..
    Your argument is that the effect is coming from something else ,a "middle man", all those other examples are also middle men. First line of desecrate says that it is filling the area with magic not the creatures. Which is irrelevant because they are still gaining a bonus. Just like a skeleton would gain a bonus to hit and damage from a magic weapon.
    I do agree with you on " it is detailing what spells are eligible for the feat: spells that place an effect on creatures when those creatures are undead.. " but none of that means that the undead has to be the target of the spell. Just like desecrate with a skeleton standing in it and just like magic weapon when used by a skeleton. Both are giving the undead a bonus to hit and damage through a middle man as you put it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    I personally dont feel 100% comfortable with using it with desecrate like that either, but I would at least accept it. It multiplies because its effectively working as a constitution score replacement for undead, and would further increase the hp based on said HD. The bonus is a "hit points per hd" bonus, which puts it into a bit of a grey zone, but it leans towards applicable. I usually wind up forgetting about desecrate entirely though.
    Effectively working as a con score and actually being a con score are two different things even though the end result is. Your argument works the same exact way if you replace"hp" with "+1 to x" and "HD" with "caster level" both are giving a set bonus for each amount of something. There are however spells that specifically replaces what the bonus are given instead of "x per y" format and they specifically say as such in their description. There is no rule reason why it works for one case and not the other when both are doing the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    For a minute I thought you had a 3rd party book I'd never heard of, and when I looked it up its apparently perfectly acceptable Latin and the people who decried it either don't know Latin or never read page 4 of the book. Does From the Books of the Dead actually include a way to make soldier skeletons? Because thats a neat arrangement but not sure if I can use it.

    Incidentally, while we're on necromancy build stuff, here's some extra corpsecraft-esque feats from my sources
    Magic and Mayhem: Undead Supremacy, requires spell focus necromancy for undead you make get +4 enchancement to dex and bonus HP as a construct
    Theocracy of Canceri: Augment Animation. Prereq cl4, undead you create get +2 enh to str, toughness bonus feat, +1 luck bonus to ac, and cost +50% gp to raise
    Encyclopedia Arcana: Necromancy: Augment Undead, undead you make get +1 hp/hd/ 3 caster levels, but i do file mongoose publishing on the sketchier side of things.
    .... I remember multiple feats that gave your undead maximized hp/hd, but cannot find any of them now.
    If you're undead yourself, there are good feats for undead pc's in the WoW horde guide, specifically:
    Mind over Matter: Adds your cha modifier to your hit dice per hp, as you would con
    Mental Stamina: Use cha in place of con wherever else it would be applicable (play a dashing, tireless, undead barbarian!)
    Undead Soul: can get ressed and still come back as an undead
    I legit couldn't remember it's real name just called it by its other name people use. As for a specific way to make varients? No I don't think it has a specific process to do so so it's up to do approval. But I do recall that pathfinder has ways of making varient undead by adding spells when casting animate dead. If you're able to use that it isn't much of a stretch to apply it backwards. Could also use grave born warrior to add on a teamwork feat to do the same and have undead squads.

    Also careful with corpsecraft-esque feats because those are also listed as enchancement bonus meaning they do not stack with corpsecrafter or dreadnecromancer's buff. That is why I suggested the heightened str and agility because they are untyped and DO stack with corpsecrafter
    Last edited by Oberron; 2020-02-26 at 02:08 AM.

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    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Imma just drop the fell energy thing because neither of us are getting anywhere with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberron View Post
    I legit couldn't remember it's real name just called it by its other name people use. As for a specific way to make varients? No I don't think it has a specific process to do so so it's up to do approval. But I do recall that pathfinder has ways of making varient undead by adding spells when casting animate dead. If you're able to use that it isn't much of a stretch to apply it backwards. Could also use grave born warrior to add on a teamwork feat to do the same and have undead squads.

    Also careful with corpsecraft-esque feats because those are also listed as enchancement bonus meaning they do not stack with corpsecrafter or dreadnecromancer's buff. That is why I suggested the heightened str and agility because they are untyped and DO stack with corpsecrafter
    You did mention that about the boosts before and I didn't respond. When I was looking them all up i didn't realize how many were also enhancement bonuses, so, good to know. Further investigating those feats I found more necromancer classes and at least one more class ability I can file under things I can nab with Complete Control, so that worked out well.

    I've seen that system for raising more unusual undead before and didnt like not having specified rules for it, in a lot of ways it seems a little too easy - no extra costs in the long run and all that. Did your dm ever specify what spell would go with creating soldier skeletons?

    Edit: oops never mind, that class ability is completely worthless. Oh well.
    Last edited by Estradus; 2020-02-26 at 08:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post

    You did mention that about the boosts before and I didn't respond. When I was looking them all up i didn't realize how many were also enhancement bonuses, so, good to know. Further investigating those feats I found more necromancer classes and at least one more class ability I can file under things I can nab with Complete Control, so that worked out well.

    I've seen that system for raising more unusual undead before and didnt like not having specified rules for it, in a lot of ways it seems a little too easy - no extra costs in the long run and all that. Did your dm ever specify what spell would go with creating soldier skeletons?

    Edit: oops never mind, that class ability is completely worthless. Oh well.
    Just making sure you saw so you didn't shoot your self in the foot.

    My dm did an even simpler thing and just said I could use a higher lvl spell slot(1 higher per 1/2 cr the variant boost) to make varients, which worked pretty well since it slowed down how many I could raise like that

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    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    Imma just drop the fell energy thing because neither of us are getting anywhere with it.



    You did mention that about the boosts before and I didn't respond. When I was looking them all up i didn't realize how many were also enhancement bonuses, so, good to know. Further investigating those feats I found more necromancer classes and at least one more class ability I can file under things I can nab with Complete Control, so that worked out well.

    I've seen that system for raising more unusual undead before and didnt like not having specified rules for it, in a lot of ways it seems a little too easy - no extra costs in the long run and all that. Did your dm ever specify what spell would go with creating soldier skeletons?

    Edit: oops never mind, that class ability is completely worthless. Oh well.
    Generally speaking, Pathfinder's variant undead (that can be made by adding extra spells to the creation process) DO have a cost: the undead count as 2x as many HD for creation and control cap. So a 1 HD bloody skeleton counts as 2 HD worth of skeletons for creation and control.

    It's just that command undead doesn't care about their number of HD. Still limits how many you can make at a time. Might also double the amount of black onyx you need.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberron View Post
    Just making sure you saw so you didn't shoot your self in the foot.

    My dm did an even simpler thing and just said I could use a higher lvl spell slot(1 higher per 1/2 cr the variant boost) to make varients, which worked pretty well since it slowed down how many I could raise like that
    I see, that's interesting. Does it cost any more control or onyx, or just the higher spell slot? Also, makes me glad I scored animate dead as a level 2 spell.
    Last edited by Estradus; 2020-02-26 at 01:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    I see, that's interesting. Does it cost any more control or onyx, or just the higher spell slot? Also, makes me glad I scored animate dead as a level 2 spell.
    Just the higher spell slot because it does not add any hit dice and normally changes abilities the undead get. The reasoning for it was higher-level magic for specific variants.


    Edit: going through a few of my own necromancers i've played i forgot about "improved animation" feat. from dragon mag 298.pre req:Spellcaster level 6th+, 5+ ranks in Knowledge (religion) Undead you create using animate dead or the create undead spells gain an additional Hit Die and a +1 competence bonus to attack and damage rolls. Note: Undead do not gain an increase in size due to the increased Hit Dice from this feat.

    +1 hd will improve slam and other abilities that rely on HD and give the undead a little more padding in health (even chance for another feat from awaken undead) and a +1 to hit and damage is pretty much a bonus +2 str/dex
    Last edited by Oberron; 2020-02-26 at 06:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberron View Post
    Just the higher spell slot because it does not add any hit dice and normally changes abilities the undead get. The reasoning for it was higher-level magic for specific variants.


    Edit: going through a few of my own necromancers i've played i forgot about "improved animation" feat. from dragon mag 298.pre req:Spellcaster level 6th+, 5+ ranks in Knowledge (religion) Undead you create using animate dead or the create undead spells gain an additional Hit Die and a +1 competence bonus to attack and damage rolls. Note: Undead do not gain an increase in size due to the increased Hit Dice from this feat.

    +1 hd will improve slam and other abilities that rely on HD and give the undead a little more padding in health (even chance for another feat from awaken undead) and a +1 to hit and damage is pretty much a bonus +2 str/dex
    Hmm, might try to tie that in with the mwk skeletons as well, the book says such skeletons are from the bones a cut above the rest but was a little vague on the how. File it under the likes of arcana evolved or 5e's heightened/diminished spell effects.

    And thanks for finding that feat, thats great for my purposes.

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    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Oberron View Post
    Just the higher spell slot because it does not add any hit dice and normally changes abilities the undead get. The reasoning for it was higher-level magic for specific variants.


    Edit: going through a few of my own necromancers i've played i forgot about "improved animation" feat. from dragon mag 298.pre req:Spellcaster level 6th+, 5+ ranks in Knowledge (religion) Undead you create using animate dead or the create undead spells gain an additional Hit Die and a +1 competence bonus to attack and damage rolls. Note: Undead do not gain an increase in size due to the increased Hit Dice from this feat.

    +1 hd will improve slam and other abilities that rely on HD and give the undead a little more padding in health (even chance for another feat from awaken undead) and a +1 to hit and damage is pretty much a bonus +2 str/dex
    That IS a nice feat. A little painful in that it makes them cost more control cap, too, BUT, we're using command undead to control our mindless minions, RIGHT?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    That IS a nice feat. A little painful in that it makes them cost more control cap, too, BUT, we're using command undead to control our mindless minions, RIGHT?
    I mentioned somewhere above, but I have a type of skeleton I can make that only costs me 1 hd to control, regardless of its having more. Combine this with my control cap being enhanced by dread necro and death lord.... I should be fine for now.

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    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by Estradus View Post
    I mentioned somewhere above, but I have a type of skeleton I can make that only costs me 1 hd to control, regardless of its having more. Combine this with my control cap being enhanced by dread necro and death lord.... I should be fine for now.
    In the Spell Compendium is the undead lieutenant. Cast it on an intelligent undead you control, and it can command your undead minions as if it were you. You can still override it. The real benefit of this 24-hour duration spell is that it lets you command CL more undead while you have an undead lieutenant. That's its wording. I assume this means HD of undead. It also limits you to one undead lieutenant at a time. But still, nice boost to your control cap.

    The other interesting use of this spell only works in 3.PF games, but would let you train your potential lieutenants to have the Charnal Soldiers feat and one other teamwork feat you want your minions to all benefit from.

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    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    I've only skimmed the thread, so forgive me if this was already mentioned, but six levels of free metamagic on Necromancy spells just begs for Persistent consumptive field layered over a Persistent greater consumptive field.

    Horned Harbinger 2 lets you add your Charisma to CL for animate dead. Useful if you have two levels to spare.

    Yathrinshee 1 lets you add all your caster levels together for Necromancy spells.

    The Theurgic Specialist feat lets you add all your caster levels together for spells from one school.

    The last two together arguably mean that you get to add all your caster levels together using Theurgic Specialist, then use that CL as input for the Yathrinshee calculation, with the potential maximum CL being [sum of CLs] * [number of casting classes] * 1.5 * 1.5 (for the two consumptive fields). In a 20th-level gestalt build, you could simply go wizard 20/[19 one-level casting dips]/yathrinshee 1 and get CL 1755, which should be enough for most purposes.
    Last edited by ExLibrisMortis; 2020-03-01 at 12:04 PM.
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    Default Re: Complicated Necromancer build requesting metamagic recommendations

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    I've only skimmed the thread, so forgive me if this was already mentioned, but six levels of free metamagic on Necromancy spells just begs for Persistent consumptive field layered over a Persistent greater consumptive field.

    Horned Harbinger 2 lets you add your Charisma to CL for animate dead. Useful if you have two levels to spare.

    Yathrinshee 1 lets you add all your caster levels together for Necromancy spells.

    The Theurgic Specialist feat lets you add all your caster levels together for spells from one school.

    The last two together arguably mean that you get to add all your caster levels together using Theurgic Specialist, then use that CL as input for the Yathrinshee calculation, with the potential maximum CL being [sum of CLs] * [number of casting classes] * 1.5 * 1.5 (for the two consumptive fields). In a 20th-level gestalt build, you could simply go wizard 20/[19 one-level casting dips]/yathrinshee 1 and get CL 1755, which should be enough for most purposes.
    That first part sounds quite effective. I don't remember seeing that for horned harbringer but it sounds pretty effective! Even if i'm already getting a similar ability to that from Death Lord (magic of arcanis). Were I using conventional building mechanics, yathrinshee or theurgic specialist would be very effective - especially combined with some of those classes that increase cleric and wizard casting simultaniously (my build mechanics are a little weird right now so not so much RN). I'm not sure if any DM would let me get away with the last part, though. :P

    Edit: Actually, Yahtrinshee is great. I was trying to find all the necromancer prestige classes and that one slipped by me, I always have trouble finding all the classes between the forgotten realms campaign setting books.
    Last edited by Estradus; 2020-03-01 at 09:49 PM.

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