The Good Place

[Anymage]

Is the character Michael based off of the Archangel Michael or, in the mythos of the show, who the concept of Archangel Michael really represents?

I'm considering getting into the show as I just finished watching the other series I was interested in, but I find that offputting and wanted to check first.

The show's vision of the afterlife is rather generic and not tied to any particular religion's. The archangel Michael's name may be an inspiration, but they don't name check any figures from the bible. There are no pointed nods to any big name biblical figures at all, and you pointedly do not have God have any presence in the show. Neither an inept bumbler, nor someone with a master plan where this all had a point after all.

Moral philosophy does have a very strong role in the show. A linchpin character was a moral philosophy professor before his death, and the show will freely name check various philosophers and their schools of thought. (Negligible spoiler: There's an episode in season 2 called "The Trolley Problem" that focuses on just that.) But religious mythology is scant to nonexistent.

[BisectedBrioche]

It actually becomes a minor plotpoint that;

Spoiler: spoilers for S1 and some plots in 2 and 3

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Demons and angels are literally wearing human shaped "suits" (although they're issued as specific appearance, and it apparently takes complicated tech to make one demon able to wear a suit looking like another's), and their human sounding names are more tied to the suits (which would also explain why Michael is using the modern spelling of his name despite predating humanity).

[Grey Watcher]

It actually becomes a minor plotpoint that;

Spoiler: spoilers for S1 and some plots in 2 and 3

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Demons and angels are literally wearing human shaped "suits" (although they're issued as specific appearance, and it apparently takes complicated tech to make one demon able to wear a suit looking like another's), and their human sounding names are more tied to the suits (which would also explain why Michael is using the modern spelling of his name despite predating humanity).

Eh, it still boils down to "it's just a name, not really any different than a show in non-supernatural setting having a character named Michael."

[JeenLeen]

Thanks. I think I'll feel a lot more comfortable watching it now.

[LibraryOgre]

Spoiler: Michael's Identity as it plays to expectations of audience and characters

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I kind of took it as "His name is given as Michael partially to evoke the idea of Heaven"... they're supposed to be in the Good Place, so using the name of an archangel as his name would evoke that for people, both in the audience and in the faux Good Place.

[Jan Mattys]

I would have written that in a spoiler tag.

[LibraryOgre]

I would have written that in a spoiler tag.

Fair enough.

[BisectedBrioche]

Finally managed to watch the rest of Season 4 and...oh god the feels. It was hopping between flawless gags and heartwarming payoffs so quickly I wasn't sure if I was laughing or crying.

Spoiler

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• Jason getting his dad into TGP.
• Elanor delaying moving on to tie up every loose end (I realised her jumper had a stripe for everyone else on it, and that got me).
• Michael finally getting his loyalty card.

[JeenLeen]

Is there any idea when the last season will come to Netflix, or if it's all on another streaming service? I think I saw episodes 9 to the end on Hulu, but not the earlier ones.

I didn't like Season 2 or 3 as much as Season 1, but it was still fun and I appreciated it. I'd like to see how it all ends.

[Lvl45DM!]

Is there any idea when the last season will come to Netflix, or if it's all on another streaming service? I think I saw episodes 9 to the end on Hulu, but not the earlier ones.

I didn't like Season 2 or 3 as much as Season 1, but it was still fun and I appreciated it. I'd like to see how it all ends.

Its all on Netflix as far as I'm aware

[McStabbington]

Season 3 popped up on the US Netflix back in about August of last year. So I imagine Season 4 will arrive at about the same time. Having seen the entire series, I will say that the last season is about as good as Season 3, maybe a little below the apex it was at in Seasons 1 and 2.

But the finale is sublime. I won't spoil anything, but the only reason I wouldn't say it's the best finale I've ever seen is because I've seen "All Good Things . . ." on Star Trek: TNG. But it is right up there. You guys are in for a real treat.

[BisectedBrioche]

In the UK, at least, I watched the entire show (including Season 4) on Netflix.

[JeenLeen]

Just season 1-3, but an internal inconsistency the Point system seems to have

Spoiler: spoilers, mostly Season 3

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It mostly seems to be based on direct consequences. Do something good = good points. Do something bad = bad points. Bad unintended consequences (as shown near the end of Season 3) also yields Bad Points, hence nobody getting into the Good Place lately.

But we're told in Season 1/2 that Tahani went to hell because all her good actions (which were a lot) were based on bad motivation. And likewise near the end of Season 1 with Eleanor, or when the crew (after being alive again) learn they can't earn points due to knowing the truth.* That seems inconsistent with the Bad Points for unintended consequences.

Anyway, just a nitpick. And I feel I could have written this a lot better, but... well, didn't. Sorry.

*it also seems a bit of a contradiction that the stoner-dude-turned-ascetic earned points. But I guess he didn't Know for sure that he was right, just really sure.

[Dire_Flumph]

Spoiler: Spoilers Seasons 1-3: About points consistency

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I love the show, but it's not big on internal consistency, especially if you look season to season. For example, if you look at what we learn in seasons 1 and 3, apparently Mindy St. Claire was the most virtuous human on Earth, because for hundreds of years she was the only one who even rated consideration to get into the Good Place, and that just doesn't seem right given what we know of her. It also seems odd given what we see of the Good Place workers in Season 3 that they would have even bothered arguing for her in the first place.

I think the show writers were aware of this though, because the idea of Jeremy Bearimy seems to be them saying "Don't think about this too hard, just go with it."

[LaZodiac]

Just season 1-3, but an internal inconsistency the Point system seems to have

Spoiler: spoilers, mostly Season 3

Show

It mostly seems to be based on direct consequences. Do something good = good points. Do something bad = bad points. Bad unintended consequences (as shown near the end of Season 3) also yields Bad Points, hence nobody getting into the Good Place lately.

But we're told in Season 1/2 that Tahani went to hell because all her good actions (which were a lot) were based on bad motivation. And likewise near the end of Season 1 with Eleanor, or when the crew (after being alive again) learn they can't earn points due to knowing the truth.* That seems inconsistent with the Bad Points for unintended consequences.

Anyway, just a nitpick. And I feel I could have written this a lot better, but... well, didn't. Sorry.

*it also seems a bit of a contradiction that the stoner-dude-turned-ascetic earned points. But I guess he didn't Know for sure that he was right, just really sure.

Spoiler: Spoilers Seasons 1-3: About points consistency

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I love the show, but it's not big on internal consistency, especially if you look season to season. For example, if you look at what we learn in seasons 1 and 3, apparently Mindy St. Claire was the most virtuous human on Earth, because for hundreds of years she was the only one who even rated consideration to get into the Good Place, and that just doesn't seem right given what we know of her. It also seems odd given what we see of the Good Place workers in Season 3 that they would have even bothered arguing for her in the first place.

I think the show writers were aware of this though, because the idea of Jeremy Bearimy seems to be them saying "Don't think about this too hard, just go with it."

I can explain both of these issues. They're not inconsistencies.

Spoiler

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Michael says that's why Tahenni went to the Bad Place. He was under the impression the system worked properly. He was just misinformed.

As for Cindy, she was not considered the most virtuous human on earth. She was someone who did a **** ton of bad things, but then did exactly one good thing that was big enough to cancel out all those things... and then IMMEDIATELY died before she could actually act on it, and thus could get more Bad Points. This is actually incredibly relevant since it feeds into something in season 4: it doesn't matter what you were yesterday, so long as you're trying to be a little better tomorrow. Cindy almost certainly would have dipped down into bad points if she continued to live, but she didn't so the broken system marks her the way it did.

Also relevant; Cindy's situation was so contentious that they literally invented a limbo zone for her to live in. So she wasn't considered good, and she wasn't considered bad either. She was considered Something. And the entire end point of the series is Elenor realizing that having everyone be in a Cindy like middle ground, and being given the chance to learn to be better, is what makes for a better afterlife.

[Dire_Flumph]

Spoiler: The Good Place and Seasons 1-3 (trying to avoid Season 4 specifics)

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I appreciate the explanations, but I get the reasoning on the show, and while they can be rationalized but it's also pretty clear that Season 1 events were not written with Season 3's revelations in mind, and that's why it's an inconsistency. Doesn't ruin the show or make it bad, it's just how things evolved over time.

For example, another explanation could be that there was a complete Good Place Staff Changeover between the Jeremy Bearimy Season 1 takes place on and Season 3. The original staff were just able to handle the transition to the modern world better and the new guys were overwhelmed. So Mindy was graded on a more functional points system where people were still getting into the Good Place and there were better arbiters to argue cases. It's not perfect, but it's workable.

[LaZodiac]

Spoiler: The Good Place and Seasons 1-3 (trying to avoid Season 4 specifics)

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I appreciate the explanations, but I get the reasoning on the show, and while they can be rationalized but it's also pretty clear that Season 1 events were not written with Season 3's revelations in mind, and that's why it's an inconsistency. Doesn't ruin the show or make it bad, it's just how things evolved over time.

For example, another explanation could be that there was a complete Good Place Staff Changeover between the Jeremy Bearimy Season 1 takes place on and Season 3. The original staff were just able to handle the transition to the modern world better and the new guys were overwhelmed. So Mindy was graded on a more functional points system where people were still getting into the Good Place and there were better arbiters to argue cases. It's not perfect, but it's workable.

Spoiler

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I mean, I'd extremely disagree on season 1 not being made with the intent of season 3 in mind. They went into this show PRETTY heavily planned in advance? And even if they didn't, the rather simple (and canon!) explanation that Michael just didn't know about how the system was flawed.

Mindy's situation is also perfectly consistent, for what we know to be a broken system.

[Peelee]

I can explain both of these issues. They're not inconsistencies.

Spoiler

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Michael says that's why Tahenni went to the Bad Place. He was under the impression the system worked properly. He was just misinformed.

As for Cindy, she was not considered the most virtuous human on earth. She was someone who did a **** ton of bad things, but then did exactly one good thing that was big enough to cancel out all those things... and then IMMEDIATELY died before she could actually act on it, and thus could get more Bad Points. This is actually incredibly relevant since it feeds into something in season 4: it doesn't matter what you were yesterday, so long as you're trying to be a little better tomorrow. Cindy almost certainly would have dipped down into bad points if she continued to live, but she didn't so the broken system marks her the way it did.

Also relevant; Cindy's situation was so contentious that they literally invented a limbo zone for her to live in. So she wasn't considered good, and she wasn't considered bad either. She was considered Something. And the entire end point of the series is Elenor realizing that having everyone be in a Cindy like middle ground, and being given the chance to learn to be better, is what makes for a better afterlife.

I... kinda agree? Ish? Btw, haven't seen Season 4 at all, so I really appreciate y'all labelling which seasons are being in the spoilers!

Spoiler: Seasons 1-3

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The system is broken and is filtering everyone into the Bad Place. Cindy is the only person to have escaped the Bad Place. We can use "escaped the Bad Place" as a metric to call her the most virtuous human on earth, going by how the system rates virtue. At least, since the system broke. Obviously she is not, but she is classified as that under the rules they are living under. Almost entirely due to fortune of her dying immediately.

[LaZodiac]

I... kinda agree? Ish? Btw, haven't seen Season 4 at all, so I really appreciate y'all labelling which seasons are being in the spoilers!

Spoiler: Seasons 1-3

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The system is broken and is filtering everyone into the Bad Place. Cindy is the only person to have escaped the Bad Place. We can use "escaped the Bad Place" as a metric to call her the most virtuous human on earth, going by how the system rates virtue. At least, since the system broke. Obviously she is not, but she is classified as that under the rules they are living under. Almost entirely due to fortune of her dying immediately.

That's fair, and sorry about that I'll mark my spoilers better.

[Peelee]

That's fair, and sorry about that I'll mark my spoilers better.

I didn't mean that comment as a subtle jab at anyone, for what it's worth.

[LibraryOgre]

Spoiler: Thinking about the Good Place, the Place, not just the Show

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It's impossible to know, unless the showrunners mentioned it, but you ever wonder who was the last person to get into the Good Place before the reforms developed in the show?

[McStabbington]

Spoiler: The Good Place and Seasons 1-3 (trying to avoid Season 4 specifics)

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I appreciate the explanations, but I get the reasoning on the show, and while they can be rationalized but it's also pretty clear that Season 1 events were not written with Season 3's revelations in mind, and that's why it's an inconsistency. Doesn't ruin the show or make it bad, it's just how things evolved over time.

For example, another explanation could be that there was a complete Good Place Staff Changeover between the Jeremy Bearimy Season 1 takes place on and Season 3. The original staff were just able to handle the transition to the modern world better and the new guys were overwhelmed. So Mindy was graded on a more functional points system where people were still getting into the Good Place and there were better arbiters to argue cases. It's not perfect, but it's workable.

Spoiler: Spoilers for Seasons 1-3

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I have to partly disagree. While I do think it's entirely plausible that The Good Place, as a show, grew in the telling, and their emphases and plans changed a bit from season to season, I do think that everything we see in Season 3 fits very well with what we see in Season 1. Jeremy Bearimy (the joke, not the episode) is only broadly similar, in that the joke evolved from Michael Schur, who is a writer and not a philosopher by trade, spoke with a bunch of philosophers and the rest of the show writing staff about how to write a closed temporal loop, then got holes poked in it, so tried to fix it, only to have more holes poked in it, and did that enough so that eventually he changed the joke to lean into the fact that it made no sense. As a matter of fact, Schur has specifically mentioned that he ultimately changed the name in question, specifically so that it would have a lower-case "i" with a dot, just to add to the absurdity.

That's . . . kinda similar to how I've heard the origin story for the show. The conception of The Bad Place closely matches his conception of The Good Place, before he talked with some moral philosophers about why the point system as a whole was a terrible idea. Then, the fact that it was a terrible idea became the central obstacle of the show. But in that case, Michael Schur had a lot more time to turn the flaw into an advantage, as opposed to create a last-minute workaround just so that his darn joke would be funny.

But that's neither here nor there. The main problem, as it turns out, is that the entities in charge of The Good Place are so ludicrously fixated on series of rules designed to keep bad people out of The Good Place, that they effectively prevent anybody from entering The Good Place by defining everyone as "bad people". Tahani literally raised $50 billion with a b for charity, but because her morals were corrupt, none of that counted. Chidi spent his entire life fixated on doing the right thing, but because he effectively did not do it with enough panache, or in a way that didn't aggravate the people around him, none of that counted. Doug Forcett accidentally uncovered the rules as much humanly possible, and followed them to such an extent that it completely broke his life, yet the very steps he took to minimize point deductions also minimized his ability to get money to help people, which also doomed him since he couldn't get the really big point getters like "end slavery" or "change the consciousness of a nation."

In law, which nobody on the show's writing staff or creative assistants really knew about from what I can tell, there's a defense known as "impossibility": if the law is written in such a way that it is literally impossible not to violate, then the impossibility defense allows me to point out, look, such a law is completely arbitrary, and arbitrary laws don't deserve to be respected, shouldn't be followed, and cannot be enforced under our legal system. You the judge do not have the authority to impose a legal sanction that I cannot help but incur merely by my existing. And as it turns out, Michael and company end up arguing something very similar; they just didn't know the legal concept that they were arguing. They were arguing that it was impossible to get into the Good Place because of all these rules. If Doug Forcett isn't wealthy enough to do it, and Tahani can't do it even though she is wealthy enough and moved enough money, and Chidi does it in a way that's too annoying, well, at a certain point, you've just made a rule that's impossible to follow. And the consequence of that impossible rule, is that billions of people are tortured on the basis of a premise that they deserve it, which, as Michael's four subjects showed, wasn't true.

That the only one to get close was Mindy St. Claire, and that it occurred by freak accident of the rules, is totally in keeping with this impossibility argument. She did one really, really good thing for the right reasons, but died before any negative consequences could possibly accrue to ding her point total back down. That's reinforces the fundamental impossibility of getting into the Good Place under the current rule system.

[Peelee]

Spoiler: Thinking about the Good Place, the Place, not just the Show

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It's impossible to know, unless the showrunners mentioned it, but you ever wonder who was the last person to get into the Good Place before the reforms developed in the show?

Spoiler: Not really.

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It was Jeff. Obviously.

[GrayGriffin]

Spoiler: Seasons 1-3

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I'm pretty sure that Mindy wasn't a case of having exactly neutral points, but the Neutral Place not knowing whether or not to assign her points for her charity. The Judge is allowed to override the point system, as seen by her giving Team Cockroach tests to see if they can go directly to the Good Place. So presumably she was in a good enough mood then to not put Mindy through any extra torment and just give her a purgatory-style afterlife just for her.

[SaintRidley]

Spoiler: Seasons 1-3

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I'm pretty sure that Mindy wasn't a case of having exactly neutral points, but the Neutral Place not knowing whether or not to assign her points for her charity. The Judge is allowed to override the point system, as seen by her giving Team Cockroach tests to see if they can go directly to the Good Place. So presumably she was in a good enough mood then to not put Mindy through any extra torment and just give her a purgatory-style afterlife just for her.

Spoiler: Seasons 1-3

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The Medium Place was created entirely for Mindy and didn't exist prior to her case. She was initially filed, as I recall, to the Bad Place, but the Good Place argued that her points thanks to that last act were enough (and since they didn't have time for consequences to accrue and deduct from those points, there's we are) for her to go to the Good Place. The Judge (I think) basically ruled that she was a special case and had the Medium Place made for her (I think, need to double check season 1).

Anyway, just finished season 3. Waiting for 4 to hit Netflix.

[BisectedBrioche]

Everyone keeps saying season 4 isn't on Netflix...so what did I watch? O_o

[Grey Watcher]

Everyone keeps saying season 4 isn't on Netflix...so what did I watch? O_o

I figure it's locked by region due to some contractual obligation or other. I keep meaning to see if I can see it by using a VPN to pretend I'm British.

[Joran]

Spoiler: Spoilers for Seasons 1-3

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But that's neither here nor there. The main problem, as it turns out, is that the entities in charge of The Good Place are so ludicrously fixated on series of rules designed to keep bad people out of The Good Place, that they effectively prevent anybody from entering The Good Place by defining everyone as "bad people". Tahani literally raised $50 billion with a b for charity, but because her morals were corrupt, none of that counted. Chidi spent his entire life fixated on doing the right thing, but because he effectively did not do it with enough panache, or in a way that didn't aggravate the people around him, none of that counted. Doug Forcett accidentally uncovered the rules as much humanly possible, and followed them to such an extent that it completely broke his life, yet the very steps he took to minimize point deductions also minimized his ability to get money to help people, which also doomed him since he couldn't get the really big point getters like "end slavery" or "change the consciousness of a nation."

In law, which nobody on the show's writing staff or creative assistants really knew about from what I can tell, there's a defense known as "impossibility": if the law is written in such a way that it is literally impossible not to violate, then the impossibility defense allows me to point out, look, such a law is completely arbitrary, and arbitrary laws don't deserve to be respected, shouldn't be followed, and cannot be enforced under our legal system. You the judge do not have the authority to impose a legal sanction that I cannot help but incur merely by my existing. And as it turns out, Michael and company end up arguing something very similar; they just didn't know the legal concept that they were arguing. They were arguing that it was impossible to get into the Good Place because of all these rules. If Doug Forcett isn't wealthy enough to do it, and Tahani can't do it even though she is wealthy enough and moved enough money, and Chidi does it in a way that's too annoying, well, at a certain point, you've just made a rule that's impossible to follow. And the consequence of that impossible rule, is that billions of people are tortured on the basis of a premise that they deserve it, which, as Michael's four subjects showed, wasn't true.

That the only one to get close was Mindy St. Claire, and that it occurred by freak accident of the rules, is totally in keeping with this impossibility argument. She did one really, really good thing for the right reasons, but died before any negative consequences could possibly accrue to ding her point total back down. That's reinforces the fundamental impossibility of getting into the Good Place under the current rule system.

Spoiler: The System Seasons 1-3

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Slight correction. The Good Place reps didn't establish the system and aren't in charge of implementing it. The Accountants are and they determine if someone is good enough or bad enough to go to the Good Place/Bad Place.

The entire system was set in place since the beginning of time with the Judge having leeway over the system. The Judge is sequestered in her chambers watching prestige TV, the Bad Place is making out like bandits, and the Good Place reps are too far up their own butts to notice or complain about how no one's making it in. So the system grinds along until Team Cockroach shows up.

Just season 1-3, but an internal inconsistency the Point system seems to have

Spoiler: spoilers, mostly Season 3

Show

It mostly seems to be based on direct consequences. Do something good = good points. Do something bad = bad points. Bad unintended consequences (as shown near the end of Season 3) also yields Bad Points, hence nobody getting into the Good Place lately.

But we're told in Season 1/2 that Tahani went to hell because all her good actions (which were a lot) were based on bad motivation. And likewise near the end of Season 1 with Eleanor, or when the crew (after being alive again) learn they can't earn points due to knowing the truth.* That seems inconsistent with the Bad Points for unintended consequences.

Anyway, just a nitpick. And I feel I could have written this a lot better, but... well, didn't. Sorry.

*it also seems a bit of a contradiction that the stoner-dude-turned-ascetic earned points. But I guess he didn't Know for sure that he was right, just really sure.

Spoiler: Intentions Seasons 1-3

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Intentions definitely matter. We see an Accountant point screen where someone got +2.2228 points for "Intention to make salad for family".

It's also possible that Michael's understanding that bad motivation negates any positive outcome of an action is wrong. The point counter that Eleanor is using is something that Michael conjured for her. Tahani could have easily racked up enough negative points by being a self-absorbed social-climbing narcissist and name-dropping someone to raise her social status and make someone else feel inferior, along with the normal raft of unintended negative points for simply existing in society, to overtake her positive points from raising money for charity. We know that Michael got some parts of the system wrong, like saying Abraham Lincoln made it into the Good Place when he did not.

This would also explain why Doug Forcett has positive points but not enough to get into The Good Place. He has a questionable motivation (he's doing everything to avoid being tortured for eternity) but is focused so tightly on avoiding negative points that he's not improving the world or lives of everyone around him enough to gain enough points to make it.

[SaintRidley]

Everyone keeps saying season 4 isn't on Netflix...so what did I watch? O_o

It's not in the U.S. I've heard it is in the UK, though.

[Peelee]

Everyone keeps saying season 4 isn't on Netflix...so what did I watch? O_o

Look, it's hardly Americans fault for being so self-centric when the rest of the world refers to us as "everyone" to begin with.