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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Creating a Hathran

    So I’m building a Hathran NPC for our DM (using the version of from the player’s guide to faerun). The main question I have is what is technically the starting level when you can enter the class? Also any other advice or ideas are welcome. My idea was go Cleric 6 with the Spell and Magic Domains and the initiate of Mystra feat at level 3 then move into the class. Is there a better class to start from? I liked the idea of her being able to cast antimagic field then still being able to use her magic inside it. Again she’s a NPC but the DM wants her to be pretty powerful.
    Last edited by OrkneysFinest; 2020-02-23 at 08:37 PM. Reason: Weird A’s thrown in the post

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Creating a Hathran

    You need 4th level spells, so entry after level 7 is the easiest. It's easy to enter after level 6, but not earlier because Leadership requires level 6. The only way I know to acquire Leadership early is via the Fire-Souled template.

    Archivist, Cleric, and Wizard entry are all strong, each with different strengths. If you are starting at fairly high level, then Wizard 1/Archivist <n> entry allows you to take advantage of Universal Spirit Magic to cast virtually any spell and you can qualify for Initiate of Mystra with 3 levels of Hathran advancing Archivist using the discussion about initiate feat requirements in Dragon Magic.

    Persistent Spell combos very well with Initiate of Mystra AMF casting to make nigh-invulnerable builds.
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.
    A Core Only Fighter 20 that kills things

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Creating a Hathran

    An Archivist has access to the initiate of mystra feat? I know they have access to the cleric spell list but are they considered a variant of cleric?

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Creating a Hathran

    An Archivist/Hathran 3 has access to Initiate of Mystra. You need to use the cleric list (not be a cleric) which an Archivist/Hathran does and the class must require a patron deity (which Hathran does).
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.
    A Core Only Fighter 20 that kills things

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Creating a Hathran

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    An Archivist/Hathran 3 has access to Initiate of Mystra. You need to use the cleric list (not be a cleric) which an Archivist/Hathran does and the class must require a patron deity (which Hathran does).
    That's not how I understand the feat's description, unless there's somewhere an errata or interpretation I'm not aware of.
    Could you please expand?

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
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    smile Re: Creating a Hathran

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleph View Post
    That's not how I understand the feat's description, unless there's somewhere an errata or interpretation I'm not aware of.
    Could you please expand?
    There is apparently a sidebar in some book with initiate feats that says something like "Non-clerics can access initiate feats if they are divine spellcasters and must worship a deity."

    I have no clue where exactly that sidebar is and a quick google search didn't yield the results.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Creating a Hathran

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel7284 View Post
    There is apparently a sidebar in some book with initiate feats that says something like "Non-clerics can access initiate feats if they are divine spellcasters and must worship a deity."

    I have no clue where exactly that sidebar is and a quick google search didn't yield the results.
    Dragon Magic, page 15.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Beholder

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    Default Re: Creating a Hathran

    Glad that I've asked, then, since it's kinda wow. I'm gonna read that sidebar, just curious if then a Sha'ir qualifies for initiate feats.

    I'm personally convinced it isn't the way the designers of the PGtF wanted it to work, but DrM is official and all.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Creating a Hathran

    Dumb question, What would that 1st level of wizard be needed for?

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
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    smile Re: Creating a Hathran

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleph View Post
    Glad that I've asked, then, since it's kinda wow. I'm gonna read that sidebar, just curious if then a Sha'ir qualifies for initiate feats.

    I'm personally convinced it isn't the way the designers of the PGtF wanted it to work, but DrM is official and all.
    This sidebar is all sorts of weird because:
    1. Clerics don't have to worship a deity to begin with in most settings.
    2. Divine casters DO need to worship a deity in Faerun (although do they really? Can't they just suffer eternally at some hellish wall thing?)

    So that sidebar applies to the same class differently in different settings.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Creating a Hathran

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    You need 4th level spells, so entry after level 7 is the easiest. It's easy to enter after level 6, but not earlier because Leadership requires level 6. The only way I know to acquire Leadership early is via the Fire-Souled template.

    Archivist, Cleric, and Wizard entry are all strong, each with different strengths. If you are starting at fairly high level, then Wizard 1/Archivist <n> entry allows you to take advantage of Universal Spirit Magic to cast virtually any spell and you can qualify for Initiate of Mystra with 3 levels of Hathran advancing Archivist using the discussion about initiate feat requirements in Dragon Magic.

    Persistent Spell combos very well with Initiate of Mystra AMF casting to make nigh-invulnerable builds.
    How would Wizard one help her cast all spells? I thought they could only progress in one caster level?

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Beholder

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    Default Re: Creating a Hathran

    Quote Originally Posted by OrkneysFinest View Post
    How would Wizard one help her cast all spells? I thought they could only progress in one caster level?
    I guess that it means you may spontaneously cast wizard spells in your handbook using archivist's slots, thanks to rashemi spirit magic.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Creating a Hathran

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleph View Post
    I guess that it means you may spontaneously cast wizard spells in your handbook using archivist's slots, thanks to rashemi spirit magic.
    Wouldn’t that only give them access to level 1 wizard spells?

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Beholder

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    Default Re: Creating a Hathran

    Quote Originally Posted by OrkneysFinest View Post
    Wouldn’t that only give them access to level 1 wizard spells?
    Please don't take as a definitive answer, but the glossary of the PHB provides the following definitions:
    1. "A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare."
    2. "For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks."


    You can write spells in your spellbook regardless of the level (but there's some skill check behind it), and the definition specific to the wizard above considers them as known spell.
    Still not necessarily the only interpretation possible.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    schreier's Avatar

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    Default Re: Creating a Hathran

    I really tried to understand the "initiate" 3 levels question in another thread:

    https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...iate+of+mystra

    Basic answer we came up with:
    A) Classes requiring a patron deity and use the cleric spell list directly or are clerics: Cleric, Contemplative, Favored Soul.
    B) Classes using the cleric spell list directly that are compatible with a patron deity requiring prestige class(*): Archivist, Rainbow Servant, Generic Divine Spellcaster.
    C) Prestige classes requiring a patron deity with an Initiate feat(**) and advancing spell access: Hathran, Arcane Devotee(***), Contemplative, Divine Disciple, Eldritch Disciple, Nightcloak.

    So the set of eligible-for-initiate characters have classes drawn from List A, or List B+List C. For a level 3 cleric requirement you would need 3 levels in a C class because it is the C class that satisfies patron deity
    Last edited by schreier; 2020-02-25 at 09:26 AM.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Ruethgar's Avatar

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    Default Re: Creating a Hathran

    A Martial Monk using one of the Dragon 310 fighter variant’s lists could get Leadership at level one if you’re immune to a book to the head. Then Sanctum Earth Spell can get you in before you have normal 4ths. Certainly not the easiest, but thought I would offer it up in case you wanted early entry possibilities.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Creating a Hathran

    A couple other notes:

    (1) A Hathran 5 Archivist or Cleric with a level of wizard can also prepare any wizard spell via preparing a first level wizard spell, using circle magic, and then using Limited Wish (from the spell or envy domain) to cast Rary's Arcane Conversion.
    (2) There are a few cleric spells that are very powerful when cast at a high caster level. Examples include Holy Word, Dictum, and Erupt.
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.
    A Core Only Fighter 20 that kills things

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Creating a Hathran

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Archivist, Cleric, and Wizard entry are all strong, each with different strengths. If you are starting at fairly high level, then Wizard 1/Archivist <n> entry allows you to take advantage of Universal Spirit Magic to cast virtually any spell and you can qualify for Initiate of Mystra with 3 levels of Hathran advancing Archivist using the discussion about initiate feat requirements in Dragon Magic.
    Why a level dip in Wizard instead of say just taking Magical Training? Also, I'm curious what your thoughts are on a similar set up using Dweomerkeeper on a Cleric chassis? Something like Cleric 5, Dweomerkeeper 10, Hathran 5 (levels adjustable as needed obviously, but you get my point I hope) or would the lack of ready access to Acorn of Far Travel be too much of a hit for this?

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Creating a Hathran

    Quote Originally Posted by Afghanistan View Post
    Why a level dip in Wizard instead of say just taking Magical Training?
    Magical Training gives you a spell list consisting of 2 cantrips. You might be able to argue for more, but that requires a lenient DM interpretation. The spell list is a critical element in fully utilizing Rashemi Spirit Magic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Afghanistan View Post
    Also, I'm curious what your thoughts are on a similar set up using Dweomerkeeper on a Cleric chassis? Something like Cleric 5, Dweomerkeeper 10, Hathran 5 (levels adjustable as needed obviously, but you get my point I hope)
    It's obviously very solid. You can also do Archivist 3/Wizard 1/Church Inquisitor 1/Dweomerkeeper 4/Hathran 5/Dweomerkeeper 6 by taking advantage of Substitute Domain.
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.
    A Core Only Fighter 20 that kills things

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