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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by DarknessEternal View Post
    How did you miss all this
    I didn't miss anything. You made a statement that artificers cannot keep up in damage with a semi/fully optimized group which is false. The existence of other classes being able to do it as well is completely irrelevant.

    If you want to use the warlock as a DPR measuring stick for some reason nothing is stopping you but artificer is doing just fine. more so if you start having multiple encounters between each short rest.
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  2. - Top - End - #122
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Even in the damage aspect (as MjolnirBear supports) the Artillerist is a pretty good blasting option (especially since it offers force damage for turrets and a blanket d8 spell damage boost), but I can't see a Battle Smith or even an Alchemist doing sub par damage, they'd certainly stay relevant.

    Even when you go to Hell you have the option of the Force Ballista and supporting with temp hp. I also really hope you flavour SHocking Grasp as your Arcane Firearm being a taser.
    My kobold artificer uses runes carved/etched/written in Draconic on physical objects. As he doesn't have the Arcane Firearm yet, Shocking Grasp and Thunderclap are copper chains on a leather gauntlet, the chains fastening a blue gem etched with runes for 'Storm'. So it's kinda like a taser glove. I prefer that image to switching to a wand, so I'm not sure how I'll write up my arcane firearm when I get it.

    My cannon is a clockwork/wood/leather dragon with legs and tail that fasten onto my forearm. The eyes go blue for the Force cannon, the mouth opens for the fire cone, and the whole thing sits back and 'sings' with waves of lines written in draconic for the THP.

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    Could you explain how you do this damage, and write some numbers? It was my impression Artillerist isn't bad but also isn't amazing. I'd like to hear what you came up with.
    To be fair to the other players, many are new, and the ones who aren't aren't maximizing damage (the warlock has neither Agonizing Blast nor the pushback invocation, f.ex).

    Here's how I'm playing: I summon my cannon, and if there are groups (which there are, it's a huge party and a single bad guy doesn't last a single round) and aim for at least two bad guys with the fire cone. 2d8 dmg each. Then I'll either Shocking Grasp or Thunderclap, depending on number of enemies, or important baddies wearing metal armor, or enemies with high CON saves. It's essentially 1d6+2d8 at-will to multiple enemies, and I'm actually tanking too, because I have a 19 AC and +2 CON bonus. At level 5 it will be 2d6+1d8+2d8 at-will to hopefully at least two enemies per turn, and if I go for a levelled spell for damage, it has essentially a free upcast due to Arcane Firearm.

    It can be a lot of damage, but soon enough we'll be facing bad guys it's better to focus down, and my spell slots will be better spent on THP or buffs like Faerie Fire. At that point I'll switch out Thunderclap for a flavour cantrip.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarknessEternal View Post
    Artificers do not do decent damage. They do not have any mechanics to do so. The fact that so many of you think this means we're simply not playing D&D fundamentally in the same capacity.

    Please explain the details of this decent damage. Let's start with a target of 50 damage sustained per round at level 12, adjusted for accuracy. That is decent damage in the D&D I play.
    I'm at level 3, not level 12. The fact that my expended slots do the same amount of damage as a single paladin strike but also lasts for an hour per slot is what is causing me to do amazing damage in comparison. Not a single one of us has feats.

    At level 12, which is high-level play where I'm from, Tink will be doing 4d8 with Shocking Grasp, 3d6+1d8 for Thunderclap (assuming I keep that cantrip) and 3d8 from my cannon at-will. Assuming my AoE options, that's 28.5 average if I hit only one person, nearly 60 if I hit at least two which is pretty reasonable. It's sustainable, roughly comparable to an at-will mini-fireball. The catch is that both CON and DEX saves are pretty good at high-level play, so I don't actually expect to do that much; the potential is there in the right circumstances and especially with more targets, but in general I'd expect to do less damage.

    That's ignoring infusions, spells, and even the spell-storing device, which could be adding 8-10 Thunderwaves, Shatters or Scorching Rays, which can be 'upcast' if I make my Arcane Firearm into the SSI.
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    None of this is even addressing the real power of the artificer in a group of players who like to optimize. They are hands-down the ultimate 5th party member. Hello mr. Warlock how would you like plus one to all your EB attacks that ignore half cover? Silly Barbarian, you should have took polearm Master first either way there's a magical plus one weapon for ya. How's it going mr. Corpse I mean rogue? Would you happen to like a cloak of elvenkind while you stay out ahead? It's so nice we have a paladin to actually put some charisma behind their Aura a of protection. Would be a shame if somebody still failed their saving throw. Nevermind here's a floating + 5. How's it going mr. Wizard dude? You mind if I strap a screwdriver to the back of your familiar so he casts shatter? No? Ok fine I'll load up invisibility for the rouge.

    Oh yeah I have a subclass also.
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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    None of this is even addressing the real power of the artificer in a group of players who like to optimize. They are hands-down the ultimate 5th party member. Hello mr. Warlock how would you like plus one to all your EB attacks that ignore half cover? Silly Barbarian, you should have took polearm Master first either way there's a magical plus one weapon for ya. How's it going mr. Corpse I mean rogue? Would you happen to like a cloak of elvenkind while you stay out ahead? It's so nice we have a paladin to actually put some charisma behind their Aura a of protection. Would be a shame if somebody still failed their saving throw. Nevermind here's a floating + 5. How's it going mr. Wizard dude? You mind if I strap a screwdriver to the back of your familiar so he casts shatter? No? Ok fine I'll load up invisibility for the rouge.

    Oh yeah I have a subclass also.
    Eh.

    The infusions are extremely limited. I don't have a problem healing, buffing, debuffing, or otherwise generally supporting my allies, but they can spend their own dang money on their own dang magic items, until I have infusions to spare--which isn't gonna happen anytime soon.

    I *am* a good target for my own infusions--my defense infusion helps me be one of two tanks (party of 7) for instance, and the casters have better casting stats (they rolled, I used standard array) than I do. Going into Avernus, magic weapons will be important I'm certain, but by level 6 I'll be wanting the deflection shield *and* the defensive armor. I'm still really into the homunculous even though it competes with my bonus action. The monk's weapons will count as magical by then, the paladin will have smites, and among the 7 of us I'm sure the rogue will manage to find a magic weapon.

    Boosting the paladin's aura will be awesome, I'll admit, unless she already has a good charisma by then... but you can't switch out infusions for immediate situations. It's only useful if you can plan ahead and judge that you need to change something in order to succeed. In those circumstances it's absolutely worth it to share; but for general situations, it's just easier to stay selfish.

    Especially if I gave a magic sword to the rogue, then needed my infusion slot back a few weeks later; by then the rogue is attached, it's *his* magic sword, and he'd feel salty about losing it. It's not the best path to party harmony. I'd far rather save up my downtime and actually craft **** for people.
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  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mjolnirbear View Post
    Eh.

    The infusions are extremely limited. I don't have a problem healing, buffing, debuffing, or otherwise generally supporting my allies, but they can spend their own dang money on their own dang magic items, until I have infusions to spare--which isn't gonna happen anytime soon.

    I *am* a good target for my own infusions--my defense infusion helps me be one of two tanks (party of 7) for instance, and the casters have better casting stats (they rolled, I used standard array) than I do. Going into Avernus, magic weapons will be important I'm certain, but by level 6 I'll be wanting the deflection shield *and* the defensive armor. I'm still really into the homunculous even though it competes with my bonus action. The monk's weapons will count as magical by then, the paladin will have smites, and among the 7 of us I'm sure the rogue will manage to find a magic weapon.

    Boosting the paladin's aura will be awesome, I'll admit, unless she already has a good charisma by then... but you can't switch out infusions for immediate situations. It's only useful if you can plan ahead and judge that you need to change something in order to succeed. In those circumstances it's absolutely worth it to share; but for general situations, it's just easier to stay selfish.

    Especially if I gave a magic sword to the rogue, then needed my infusion slot back a few weeks later; by then the rogue is attached, it's *his* magic sword, and he'd feel salty about losing it. It's not the best path to party harmony. I'd far rather save up my downtime and actually craft **** for people.
    The fact that you can share the infusions isn't for everyone but the option exists. I personally more likely to share them than use them on myself.
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  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    I'm hoping to be able to take the Armorsmith out for a spin in a high-level one-shot soon so I can tinker around with it. It seems like it might make for a more resilient tank than an equivalently leveled paladin or fighter: d8 hit die is just okay, but at-will imposed disadvantage built into your attacks and 20 THP every round for your bonus action seems like a really good deal. Not to mention a +4 to AC (cloak of protection, ring of protection, +2 armor/shield) and +8 to all saves at level 20 just from magic-item-class-features is pretty incredible.

    You've got proficiency in con saving throws built in, and the Mind-sharpener infusion helps guarantee you won't lose that vital concentration spell (hello Haste/Greater Invisibility/Animate Objects).

    Tack it on a warforged for another +1 to AC and another +2 to all saves (two loaded wand sheathes) to make your DM cry. Be Iron-Iron Man.

    Mind you, it's not nearly as good in terms of saving throws before level 20, and the damage potential is not going to be anything close to the aforementioned fighter/paladin. But it seems like a strong contender for a late-game tank PC, even disregarding the extra support utility every artificer brings to the table in terms of build-in Magic Mart.

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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by PrinceOfMadness View Post
    Be Iron-Iron Man.
    Iron Man obliterates things with massive weaponry. He doesn't just take a beating until the enemies tire themselves out.

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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by DarknessEternal View Post
    Iron Man obliterates things with massive weaponry. He doesn't just take a beating until the enemies tire themselves out.
    You keep ignoring everyone presenting you with proof that the Artificer does provide decent and above damage, you gave an unrealistically high target and failed to provide any supporting builds yet continue to bash on a class for being unable to do "decent" damage. A claim no one else seems to agree with you on so far really. The Armorer provides a decent ranged attack option that can be buffed with infusions and is compatible with Sharpshooter and Sneak Attack, how is that failing to meet your criteria of decent?
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    A few thoughts.

    The Star Druid 15th level ability needs to buff. I do like the teleportation tricks, but it is essentially a daily ability at high tiers and does only 4d10 save for nothing. That sucks. I'm AFB at the moment, but I think that is less damage than a single use of Sunbeam, which is concentration and repeatable.


    I've been worried about the Artificer temp hp. I am playing an artillerist and I've seen how good the temp hp turret is, but I'm wondering if that is why their offensive abilities are a bit less. I definitely think the Infiltrator needs a huge buff though, it is just no where near as good as the Guardian mode.

    I think the Ranger smite should scale with spell levels. 3d6 is pretty nice for a first, acceptable for a second level (I'd never cast a second level for 3d6, but since it is extra on top of damage) but it just is not worth it for a 3rd level.

    I'm really nervous about the Dragon form for the Druid. That is essentially guaranteeing that they won't drop concetration, and they are a concentration heavy class. Very very nice, the chalice is actually the one I see as the weakest. It seems like a very minimal benefit to healing, but maybe it would just be a table difference. The archer is fun though. Gives some solid damage for a bonus action on top of your spells for the turn.

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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Agreed on starburst and ranger smite.
    Having three useful forms to choose from is pretty good, i wouldnt want any of them to be too powerful (we have a healing druid and the moon/wildfire druids for damage using your wildshape). That said if the concentration boost is too good compared to the other two by all means cut it back a bit. Maybe tie it to druid level so its still good for them (druids rely heavily on conc) but prevents MC shenanigans

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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Come to think of it, it's very interesting that the Lightning Launcher is a ranged weapon and does lightning damage: that means if you put that on a rogue, the rogue is now doing all of his sneak attack damage as lightning damage. Add a level of tempest cleric for the channel divinity.

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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Damon_Tor View Post
    Come to think of it, it's very interesting that the Lightning Launcher is a ranged weapon and does lightning damage: that means if you put that on a rogue, the rogue is now doing all of his sneak attack damage as lightning damage. Add a level of tempest cleric for the channel divinity.
    Oof, that's got a hefty blast potential indeed.

    Then again, rogues are able to use Sun Blade (or whatever it was called) to deliver radiant sneak attack damage (because the weapon qualifies as a shortsword, which is a finesse melee weapon), so it's not completely unprecedented.

    All things considered, to do as you suggested, it requires a multiclass between not only two but three classes to pull this off, and meeting prerequisites for three different ability scores (dex 13 for rogue, int 13 for artificer and wis 13 for cleric). I'd say it's still fine.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2020-02-28 at 04:57 AM.
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosmancer View Post
    A few thoughts.

    The Star Druid 15th level ability needs to buff. I do like the teleportation tricks, but it is essentially a daily ability at high tiers and does only 4d10 save for nothing. That sucks. I'm AFB at the moment, but I think that is less damage than a single use of Sunbeam, which is concentration and repeatable.


    I've been worried about the Artificer temp hp. I am playing an artillerist and I've seen how good the temp hp turret is, but I'm wondering if that is why their offensive abilities are a bit less. I definitely think the Infiltrator needs a huge buff though, it is just no where near as good as the Guardian mode.

    I think the Ranger smite should scale with spell levels. 3d6 is pretty nice for a first, acceptable for a second level (I'd never cast a second level for 3d6, but since it is extra on top of damage) but it just is not worth it for a 3rd level.

    I'm really nervous about the Dragon form for the Druid. That is essentially guaranteeing that they won't drop concetration, and they are a concentration heavy class. Very very nice, the chalice is actually the one I see as the weakest. It seems like a very minimal benefit to healing, but maybe it would just be a table difference. The archer is fun though. Gives some solid damage for a bonus action on top of your spells for the turn.
    On the 14th level druid ability - I think the real power in it is in the teleportation ability of it. It's a weakened version of scatter (a 6th level spell) except with damage and status effects on it too. I think it's better than you're giving credit for. Compared to other druid 14 abilities as well it's actually pretty strong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TIPOT View Post
    On the 14th level druid ability - I think the real power in it is in the teleportation ability of it. It's a weakened version of scatter (a 6th level spell) except with damage and status effects on it too. I think it's better than you're giving credit for. Compared to other druid 14 abilities as well it's actually pretty strong.
    You have a point that most 14th level abilities for the Druid are weak. I don't think that is a good excuse for making this one weak too.

    The teleportation ability is nice, I just don't know if it is good enough.

    Firstly, it can only teleport allies who are in the radius. This means the teleportation is at it's best when the entire party is within 30ft of each other, and has a large number of enemies around them. This in turn tells me that we are already engaged in melee and that the frontliners are likely in good position already. So, it is already most likely taking the party out of position, which might lead to them being in a better position, but that is a highly depended situation.

    Secondly, if you do not teleport your allies out, they get hit. So, you really must teleport them out or risk them being the only combatant to fail the save and be surrounded while blind.

    Third, being daily is not good. This means the Druid is going to look for this ability to be impactful. They need a situation where they can hit a good number of enemies, where the teleport grants them good positioning, where the blindness might be clutch and their other abilities to cause blindness or similiar (because druids actually have a lot of those) for a longer period of time aren't as good. And then the enemy saves and nothing happens except the teleport.

    I won't say it is worthless, but it could be better and more attractive to use, but Sunbeam, a spell they will have access to, gives better damage and blind on a repeated use. No teleport but still, it could be more clutch to cast sunbeam and vorp the enemy than to use this ability, and they are given daily at comparable levels. Actually, Sunbeam might even come earlier.

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    Post Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Spells,rage, or any limited resources are not "sustainable" which was why I was curious on what they considered constant DPR.
    Which is why I included DPR without Rage, which was 49 DPR. That is only one off the 50 DPR mark.
    In regards to the Warlock, he can definitely afford a single Hex each battle considering he has 3 slots at that level and usually no more than 3 combats per short rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    The Warlock is a terrible benchmark for sustainable damage imo because it's the outlier not the norm. It's weird that Agonizing blast applies to all rays, though even with that you fall short using two different limited resources, sustained damage at 12 would probably be in the decent category at around 30 with pushing 40+ moving into good. If you use a normal caster using cantrips then the damage threshold falls signifcantly, resourcefree (and thus truly sustainable damage) isn't hitting around the 50 mark reliably in tier 3 and would probably struggle to do so in tier 4, just consider the implications of a party of 5 doing that kind of damage. You'd wipe out anything with less than 250hp in one turn without trying, that would make actually challenging monsters comical in their stats.
    If you think a basic un-optimized Warlock hurling Eldritch Blasts is an outlier of damage in 5e then we might be playing a different game.
    I mean, an Open Hand Monk at level 12, which isn't even a damage focused class, does 29 DPR while using Flurry of Blows, which he most certainly can afford each turn at that level, so I would definitely call that sustained (combats in average are 3 rounds, you're supposed to have 2-3 combats between each short rest according to the PHB).
    Last edited by bendking; 2020-02-28 at 09:03 AM.

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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Arkhios View Post
    Starry Form, where have I seen this before...

    OH, RIGHT. The game I still play after 15 years since its release:

    Wouldn't say that it's exactly unique, per sé (see spoiler, below), but it's unique in D&D so far, at the very least.
    Spoiler: Balance Druids
    Show

    In World of Warcraft, Balance Druids draw their powers from the sun, the moon, and the stars, and their abilities are very similar to the Circle of Stars in this UA. Not saying it's a bad thing. Just saying it's a thing elsewhere.
    Going to guess that they both draw their inspiration from Stonehenge and the like. Actual druids are from a lot later than Stonehenge, but conflating the two is a time honored tradition predating both D&D and Warcraft.

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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    Going to guess that they both draw their inspiration from Stonehenge and the like. Actual druids are from a lot later than Stonehenge, but conflating the two is a time honored tradition predating both D&D and Warcraft.
    To be fair, I didn't say Blizzard/WoW invented this concept. I only pointed out where I've seen this before.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2020-02-28 at 10:49 AM.

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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    If you think a basic un-optimized Warlock hurling Eldritch Blasts is an outlier of damage in 5e then we might be playing a different game.
    I mean, an Open Hand Monk at level 12, which isn't even a damage focused class, does 29 DPR while using Flurry of Blows, which he most certainly can afford each turn at that level, so I would definitely call that sustained (combats in average are 3 rounds, you're supposed to have 2-3 combats between each short rest according to the PHB).
    An Open Hand Monk can afford it because for some weird reason it doesn't get any subclass abilities that consume Ki until 17th level. Even then it's not certain an Open Hand Monk could afford that depending on how much they try to use Stunning Strike, Step of the Wind, Patient Defense of if they throw any deflected missiles back. Even then your Monk example is using a limited resource to increase damage output with presumably a maxed out Dex.

    Maybe we have differing opinions of what unoptimized means, maxing your primary stat, taking a damage orientated invocation and spending one of your 3 slots on a damage orientated spells seems to be optimized to me? Just because the Warlock is easy to optimize for at will damage doesn't mean that you aren't optimizing (maxing stat and spendong one of your limited invocations on damage) and doesn't mean that is is a good benchmark for sustained at will damage everyone else can do. Both of your examples have been short rest dependent classes and a Barbarian with two feats (and tbh I'm not entirely sure where your numbers on the Barbarian are coming from, you're clearly accounting for multiple hits with the damage but when you drop rage you only lost one hits worth of Rage bonus damage. Not to mention AC15 seems pretty low for the average enemy at level 12), how about sustained damage on another caster that doesn't get EB+AB?
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Damage threshholds only matter for a character for whom damage output is their primary contribution to combat. A wizard can spend all day throwing out buffs, debuffs and battlefield control spells and contribute more than their fair share to party success without dealing a single point of damage.

    Artificer conceptually leans support, so it's at least in theory ok for them to fall a bit behind in damage. That said, the parent class artificer features are actually rather limited in both support and damage, which forces artificers to lean heavily on subclass features for their actual contribution, and the damage oriented subclasses actually deliver. Well built Battlesmith numbers well above benchline as already posted. Artillerist does too, reference treantmonk's artillerist video on youtube, but is a bit dependent on fire damage which can cause problems in some campaigns. Armourer looks to me like it will be alright for damage as well, but I admit I haven't run any numbers, nor am I likely to bother while it's still subject to change.

    Alchemist is left a bit out in the cold, as it really doesn't get a lot of damage out of subclass features. Personally I don't think it should or needs to, I like the idea of artificer subclasses that doubles down on a supportive role, but alchemist sadly doesn't particularly deliver there either.

    But the idea that 'artificer doesn't deal good damage' doesn't really hold water, partially because they shouldn't have to in order to be a fully contributing party member but mostly because most artificer subclasses, all but the alchemist really, do actually deal perfectly fine damage, well above the 'warlock with agonizing blast and hex' benchmark at nearly all levels.
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by CheddarChampion View Post
    If you use FW's DS with dual wielding, wouldn't it activate after the attack action? If so, DS would only make the one bonus attack count as magical.
    Probably not RAI but it seems RAW to me.
    Since day one of 5e, the developers haven’t been able to decide if they want a “stack/intent”, MtG model of actions per turn or a strict one-thing-at-a-time model (or even a hybrid with Extra Attack considerations). My tables will always be the “stack/intent” model (you don’t actually have to attack when you take the attack action, so long as you do nothing else that requires an action that turn but attack), because I’m always for greater player flexibility. As the DM, I do not fear the players, for lo, my power is infinite. This also makes Shield Mastery worth taking. I’ll point out that at level 5, a DW FW Ranger makes three attacks per turn and can use their “smite” on two of them, so long as they hit two different creatures, by the “hybrid” model.

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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by dreast View Post
    Since day one of 5e, the developers haven’t been able to decide if they want a “stack/intent”, MtG model of actions per turn or a strict one-thing-at-a-time model (or even a hybrid with Extra Attack considerations). My tables will always be the “stack/intent” model (you don’t actually have to attack when you take the attack action, so long as you do nothing else that requires an action that turn but attack), because I’m always for greater player flexibility. As the DM, I do not fear the players, for lo, my power is infinite. This also makes Shield Mastery worth taking. I’ll point out that at level 5, a DW FW Ranger makes three attacks per turn and can use their “smite” on two of them, so long as they hit two different creatures, by the “hybrid” model.

    Ask your DM about action ordering today!
    I don't use the terms, but I use the method. It can be a major pain to remember all of that stuff and get it in the right order, and usually as long as the players have the correct intent I don't care about the precise ordering of effects

  22. - Top - End - #142
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Expected damage is a bunk expectation. I mean, what's your expected damage at lvl2? Because a Moon druid can be charging around as a Warhorse or Deinonychus or Bear or Direwolf and be putting everyone else to shame. Twice per short rest, for an hour per time. 19-37 free HP a go, and even if it was 100% to-hit on you (it's not), that would be scary.

    So can a Stars Druid at lvl4 as a Frilled Deathspitter, *with* 3x +5 1d6+3 attacks *and* one bonus action ranged spell attack, with 1d8+Wis damage for their short-rest "nova" for 10 minutes +shooty/2hrs *just a killer dino* thing. Or can go pretend-thrower spam with a 15/30' ranged +5 to-hit, DC13 Con for half, 4d8 poison shooty, with the above bonus action attack alongside it. Oh, and it frigging blinds them until the end of your next turn if they fail the save, which is still spell-slot worthy at this level. No recharge or anything needed, just keep spitting/hitting them with it. Better at melee combat or close-ranged shooting than almost anything else at that level. Didn't even use a spell slot, and they've got 4/3 lvl1/2 slots by then, that can do some extra damage stuff if you want. And, it's 18 free HP every time you do half of it (the 2-hours long, 3x attack part, or poison shooty, no bonus action shooting paid for yet) with wildshape too.

    Then a Fighter expects something else at 5th, then a Paladin at 6th, depending on how they're built. But druids still do a thing. They're not even a damagey class (except, they are, until about lvl4-6).

    But, wait, wildshape doesn't keep up.... Nope, but spells do. Yet, that level 2-6 time is *really* important. It helps you not die due to HP loss.

    Grabbing lvl12 as the only level that is a decent comparison is silly. That's almost the level where it's least comparable, because everyone can do the thing they actually do, be it damage, de/buffing, control, or anything. Literally the most irrelevant time in a campaign. You can start to look at level 2-4 spell slots as "at-will/inexhaustable" resources for casters with slot Regen or good short-rest resources. So they're sustained damage/control/buffs-for-extra-damage. Or a rogue's skills "done", so they can almost always "do their thing". Or a fighter to be going "wow, I wish I had some spell slots, to add to all this "at will/inexhaustable damage me and everyone else can do now"". A lot of these characters also do varying degrees of control/debuff as well. And it's rare that DnD is a one player game, which makes this a very hard-to-do comparison. You don't even want to know how much a Moon or Shepherd druid loves having someone else on the team that can prone/restrain/blind/paralyze people for them.

    A level 1 Life cleric does plenty of "damage" with reasonable use of Bless or Healing Word. Still does it at level 12. Never had to roll a damage die to do it. I'd still expect them to add damage that way, every once in a while, when they weren't doing other stuff. And they still would. Almost inexhaustably at lvl12, even after they'd run out of level 3+ spell slots (well, 7 times a day, but that's plenty if it's all just combat simulatory, if that's all they did after running out of every other spell slot, over 4-8 encounters in a day. They've got 4/3/3/3/2/1 slots per day, 12+Wis chosen, choose your spells from the whole list, with bonus extras you don't have to choose. They'll be fine).

    "Oh noes! The Druid made another 4 warhorses appear and charge/prone and bonus stomp the enemy! I definitely know the Artificer won't thunder-punch the rest of them to death while they're on the ground/make everything awesomely crispy straight afterwards...". Artificer is fine on damage. They're at about druid level, but a bit lower early-on. They tend to diverge in what they do, and how much of it, a little after the thing above. Lvl12 powerful? Don't know. But most stuff is by that point, if you do it right.

    I mean, can it have 3-4 attacks by level 5-6, and summon an extra 4-16 relevant attacks with a spell for an hour, a couple of times a day? Because, if it can't..... Lol.


    (if you want to talk "optimized" characters, then yes, unfortunately, you have to allow a certain amount of "official" WotC material in. And that means Frilled Deathspitters for Druids from Ixalan. CR1/2, yep, all good. Your mentor either planeshifted you there for tutelage (probably to learn about magic and nature and awesome dinosaurs) or they're a "counts as" some other horrible beast 'o death you've seen. Backstory that trite in, make it AL legal :)
    There was even an adventure there, AL approved, "X Marks the Spot". It gave them 20Str by accident. So Planeshift: Ixalan is the updated "official" version of this creature's "beast template stats". So, yep. They're the downgraded "this seems fine" version. Huzzah!)
    Last edited by sambojin; 2020-02-29 at 06:27 AM.

  23. - Top - End - #143
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Just taking it to its logical conclusion, at least on rules applicable stuff, not only is the *Stars* Druid not bad, it can give another character shoulder cannons. Because, for once in a Druid's life, you can take Mounted Combatant as a feat.

    Frilled Deathspitters are small. You can ride around on the uber-damage paladin stated above^, that we must all measure our lvl12 damage by, at lvl4. And just act as shoulder cannons for funsies. And possibly outdamage him/her for a few levels. Well, until a bit before level 12, at least.

    You can coincidentally choose if the poor chivalrous fool below you gets hit or not, when other things take a swing at him. And some of those fools can automatically give disadvantage to attacks against you if he wants (ally being attacked within X feet).

    Well, it wasn't really the logical conclusion. But why fight? When you can be a custom super-mech, as a party?
    Last edited by sambojin; 2020-02-29 at 06:51 AM.

  24. - Top - End - #144
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    I do like 'warlock with hex and, from level 2, agonizing blast' as a baseline benchmark for decent damage. It's not bad, if not amazing, not complicated, and scales reasonably. It you're meeting or exceeding that for typical damage output than you're doing fine as a damage dealer. Obviously some builds do better, sometimes much better, especially if you narrow your view to particular level ranges, but D&D is a cooperative game, you don't always have to do the most possible. If you meet that benchmark as a damage dealer then you're pulling your weight.

    Of course the benchmark is only relevant if dealing damage is the main way you're contributing to battle. Buffing, debuffing, battlefield control, tanking, support... there's a lot of ways to meaningfully contribute to combat that aren't primarily about knocking enemies out with hp damage. Damage is only the mist easily quantifiable means of contributing in combat, and in less combat oriented campaigns you might not even need every party member to 'pull their weight' in a fight to begin with.
    The pursuit of knowledge requires a mind unfettered by the petty constraints of ethics, faith, or ... mortality.

  25. - Top - End - #145
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Malisteen View Post
    I do like 'warlock with hex and, from level 2, agonizing blast' as a baseline benchmark for decent damage. It's not bad, if not amazing, not complicated, and scales reasonably. It you're meeting or exceeding that for typical damage output than you're doing fine as a damage dealer. Obviously some builds do better, sometimes much better, especially if you narrow your view to particular level ranges, but D&D is a cooperative game, you don't always have to do the most possible. If you meet that benchmark as a damage dealer then you're pulling your weight.

    Of course the benchmark is only relevant if dealing damage is the main way you're contributing to battle. Buffing, debuffing, battlefield control, tanking, support... there's a lot of ways to meaningfully contribute to combat that aren't primarily about knocking enemies out with hp damage. Damage is only the mist easily quantifiable means of contributing in combat, and in less combat oriented campaigns you might not even need every party member to 'pull their weight' in a fight to begin with.
    Honestly if I ever need to talk about the average damage a character should expect to deal every round in 5e. I go with 1d8+mod per attack.

    That is a fighter with a longsword and shield, or an archer with a longbow. Which seems to me to be about as bog standard as you can get. If you want to use standard array and work that as a baseline, then we are talking 1d8+3 or about 7.5 damage a round (considering level 2)


    The only problem with using that as a bar, is you can quickly see how many builds meet or exceed that. But, I think that is the point of 5e. Building a character who can meet the minimum DPR bar is easy. The warlock you mentioned without hex, is doing 1d10+mod. With hex adding a d6 you suddenly become above the curve by a solid bit.

    But, I also agree that DPR is generally a limited measure of a character's impact on a fight. I had an artificer that cast Web and made it so half of the enemies were unable to reach us and deal damage. Hard to quantify that, but clearly it would have had a large impact on the fight and how it went.

  26. - Top - End - #146
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosmancer View Post
    Honestly if I ever need to talk about the average damage a character should expect to deal every round in 5e. I go with 1d8+mod per attack.

    That is a fighter with a longsword and shield, or an archer with a longbow. Which seems to me to be about as bog standard as you can get. If you want to use standard array and work that as a baseline, then we are talking 1d8+3 or about 7.5 damage a round (considering level 2)


    The only problem with using that as a bar, is you can quickly see how many builds meet or exceed that. But, I think that is the point of 5e. Building a character who can meet the minimum DPR bar is easy. The warlock you mentioned without hex, is doing 1d10+mod. With hex adding a d6 you suddenly become above the curve by a solid bit.

    But, I also agree that DPR is generally a limited measure of a character's impact on a fight. I had an artificer that cast Web and made it so half of the enemies were unable to reach us and deal damage. Hard to quantify that, but clearly it would have had a large impact on the fight and how it went.
    I use the '2(duelist + 1d8 weapon+ mod)' as my bar for at-will. Triple this for burst damage.
    You can do this then damage is covered.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

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  27. - Top - End - #147
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Brief rundown:

    Armorer looks great, might actually play an artificer with that.

    A not to those saying it is too much, all subclasses are centered on using int to hit. Alch throws cantrips with int to damage, artillerist shoots with a bonus action with int, battlesmith while boring as dirt uses weapons with int.

    The Druid subclass looks rather dull so don’t really care.

    Ranger is more bandaid on a bad class instead of them just admitting base phb ranger is meh and changing it.

  28. - Top - End - #148
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    Ranger is more bandaid on a bad class instead of them just admitting base phb ranger is meh and changing it.
    Hallelujah!

    Although i do happen to find the glowstick druid pretty appealing.

  29. - Top - End - #149
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Been crunching math on the Armor smith and the THP is strange. If you focus on mitigation you can be king. Taking about 10% less damage at will than a totem barbarian with a shield raging. Also due to not having any subclass features that can possibly drain spell slots you end up with more AE, shield, or other spell based avoidance/mitigation.

    Haste + SSI mirror image is a solid round one opener.

    Damage output is ok but can't keep up with Battle smith or artillerist.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

    All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS

  30. - Top - End - #150
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by dreast View Post
    Since day one of 5e, the developers haven’t been able to decide if they want a “stack/intent”, MtG model of actions per turn or a strict one-thing-at-a-time model (or even a hybrid with Extra Attack considerations). My tables will always be the “stack/intent” model (you don’t actually have to attack when you take the attack action, so long as you do nothing else that requires an action that turn but attack), because I’m always for greater player flexibility. As the DM, I do not fear the players, for lo, my power is infinite. This also makes Shield Mastery worth taking. I’ll point out that at level 5, a DW FW Ranger makes three attacks per turn and can use their “smite” on two of them, so long as they hit two different creatures, by the “hybrid” model.

    Ask your DM about action ordering today!
    I houseruled away the need to take the attack action to use the bonus action shove from shield mastery entirely. If the hard wants to take the feat so he can shove a guy 5 feet away then cast a spell at him, why not? Requiring the attack action is a needless complication.

    My houserule for two weapon fighting removes the bonus action entirely, so that's a different matter.
    Last edited by Damon_Tor; 2020-03-01 at 01:58 PM.

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