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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Fixed that for you
    It would help, but if they're adamant on never fixing the chassis, fixing the subclasses would be nice.

    I'm a fan of subclasses that redefine how you fight. It would be pretty cool if each one had it's own niche.

    I mean a niche that isn't terrible, beastmaster, put your hand down.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Reading the 9th level armorer feature and taking the words at face vaule it seems at 9th level you can infuse the enhanced protection bonus on your armor multiple times. This would mean, again at face value your armor could give you up to a +12 over the armor's base AC, so 30 ac, potentially. They might want to take another crack at that wording.
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterdeep Merch View Post
    It would help, but if they're adamant on never fixing the chassis, fixing the subclasses would be nice.

    I'm a fan of subclasses that redefine how you fight. It would be pretty cool if each one had it's own niche.

    I mean a niche that isn't terrible, beastmaster, put your hand down.
    In a way, they are adamant. Ranger has popped up a *lot* in UA, so they care on some level. They just refuse to roll up their sleeves and fix the root of the problem, the things written in the PHB. Gives me Hexblade flashbacks to be honest.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Of the three, the Star Druids seem most playable/useful. Very solid mechanics and interesting flavor.

    The Armorer Artificer would be alright if it weren't for the unpardonable sin of making them a SAD gish like the Hexblade. You'd think WOTC's designers would have learned their lesson from THAT abomination already! I don't allow SAD classes like this at my table - I had to nerf the Hexblade - so this one's a no-go, and if it becomes official in this form it'll get the same treatment.

    And I really, really want to like the Fey Ranger, but how in the holy living **** is a charisma based Ranger supposed to WORK??? Has anyone at WOTC played a Ranger, ever? And do they know Charisma is, in fact, a dump stat for Rangers? Full stop. There's no way to effectively play one of these using point buy or standard array; it's entirely down to the "roll 4d6 and pray" method.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by JakOfAllTirades View Post
    And I really, really want to like the Fey Ranger, but how in the holy living **** is a charisma based Ranger supposed to WORK??? Has anyone at WOTC played a Ranger, ever? And do they know Charisma is, in fact, a dump stat for Rangers? Full stop. There's no way to effectively play one of these using point buy or standard array; it's entirely down to the "roll 4d6 and pray" method.
    At level 7 they get a bonus to ANY Charisma check based on their Wisdom, which a Ranger should at least have a decent score in. It's not just a Deception or Persuade roll that they happen to be proficient in, ANY Charisma check. So you don't really need to boost up Wisdom all that much. A 10 would at least let you always receive a bonus from your Wisdom instead of taken away a point.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by JakOfAllTirades View Post
    And I really, really want to like the Fey Ranger, but how in the holy living **** is a charisma based Ranger supposed to WORK??? Has anyone at WOTC played a Ranger, ever? And do they know Charisma is, in fact, a dump stat for Rangers? Full stop. There's no way to effectively play one of these using point buy or standard array; it's entirely down to the "roll 4d6 and pray" method.
    I don't understand what you mean, it uses wisdom for all of it's things as usual and eventually adds your wisdom modifier to all charisma checks. At that point you can use your wisdom as if you hadn't dumped charisma, or in the case that you've rolled fortunately on stats, you're the new party face with a huge charisma bonus on top of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JumboWheat01 View Post
    At level 7 they get a bonus to ANY Charisma check based on their Wisdom, which a Ranger should at least have a decent score in. It's not just a Deception or Persuade roll that they happen to be proficient in, ANY Charisma check. So you don't really need to boost up Wisdom all that much. A 10 would at least let you always receive a bonus from your Wisdom instead of taken away a point.
    It doesn't say "minimum of one" here so you'd need at least a 12 in Wisdom to gain any benefit from it.
    Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2020-02-24 at 08:34 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by JakOfAllTirades View Post
    Of the three, the Star Druids seem most playable/useful. Very solid mechanics and interesting flavor.

    The Armorer Artificer would be alright if it weren't for the unpardonable sin of making them a SAD gish like the Hexblade. You'd think WOTC's designers would have learned their lesson from THAT abomination already! I don't allow SAD classes like this at my table - I had to nerf the Hexblade - so this one's a no-go, and if it becomes official in this form it'll get the same treatment.

    And I really, really want to like the Fey Ranger, but how in the holy living **** is a charisma based Ranger supposed to WORK??? Has anyone at WOTC played a Ranger, ever? And do they know Charisma is, in fact, a dump stat for Rangers? Full stop. There's no way to effectively play one of these using point buy or standard array; it's entirely down to the "roll 4d6 and pray" method.
    Big difference between Hexblade getting SaD at lv 1 and Cha crossing over into 3 other front loaded classes and the armor smith getting it at lv 3 with limited multiclass options.
    At first glance the armor smith looks OP but other than the spell list it lacks the flexibility that the other Subclasses get.

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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    It doesn't say "minimum of one" here so you'd need at least a 12 in Wisdom to gain any benefit from it.
    I meant 10 in Charisma to avoid penalties, but yeah, it is interesting that it doesn't have a "minimum of one" note.
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by JumboWheat01 View Post
    I meant 10 in Charisma to avoid penalties, but yeah, it is interesting that it doesn't have a "minimum of one" note.
    It's a bit shoehorned in, they clearly wanted this ranger to be charismatic in some way but understood that you'll rarely (if ever) manage having a decent score there so they threw you a bone to make this a decent option.

    Another fun thing is that it also doesn't say "you can gain a bonus", you just do. That means if you've rolled a socially awkward dunderhead of a Ranger (why you would is a separate issue) you can actually be even worse at these checks, with an additional negative penalty.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Frankly, I just like this one. The Artificer and Ranger sub-classes are a bit on the strong side but I don't really mind considering the base classes aren't that strong to begin with.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    This is the first time in 5e that I've really wanted to play a Ranger.

    The other ranger subclasses would sometimes make me think "Huh, I bet I can figure out a way for that to work." This one just works. I just want it. I want to do it. I want that one. Mom! Mom, get me that one.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Starry Form, where have I seen this before...

    OH, RIGHT. The game I still play after 15 years since its release:


    Kul Tiran Human Balance Druid with Glyph of Stars (not mine, though).

    Wouldn't say that it's exactly unique, per sť (see spoiler, below), but it's unique in D&D so far, at the very least.
    Spoiler: Balance Druids
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    In World of Warcraft, Balance Druids draw their powers from the sun, the moon, and the stars, and their abilities are very similar to the Circle of Stars in this UA. Not saying it's a bad thing. Just saying it's a thing elsewhere.


    THAT SAID, I absolutely love this Circle. I've been neglecting even building a druid for theorycrafting purposes for a long time, but Circle of the Stars makes me want to play a druid for the first time in 5th edition.

    Regarding Armorer/Tony Stark/Iron Man allegory. My first thoughts exactly. Can't say I hate this, conceptually, but it's a little bit front-loaded and is likely to take a severe nerf-hammering. The concept is beyond cool, though.

    Fey Wanderer is, as has been pointed out several times already, perhaps the best addition for dual-wielding rangers in a very long time (read: never before! ...or at least I don't remember another as clearly two-weapon fighter-ish ranger subclass as this)
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2020-02-25 at 05:25 AM.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Anyone else noticing that those 2 extra slots for Infusion make persistant flight a real thing? 8 hours of flight with a back up pair of Winged Boots at level 10? I posted a thread about it, but I thought adding it here also makes a lot of sense?

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Citadel97501 View Post
    Anyone else noticing that those 2 extra slots for Infusion make persistant flight a real thing? 8 hours of flight with a back up pair of Winged Boots at level 10? I posted a thread about it, but I thought adding it here also makes a lot of sense?
    It increases the maximum number of infused items but it doesn't say that you can have more than one of the same infusion. You just get to have more infusions for your armor without taking away from your overall Artificeryness, still just the one pair of boots.
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    Another fun thing is that it also doesn't say "you can gain a bonus", you just do. That means if you've rolled a socially awkward dunderhead of a Ranger (why you would is a separate issue) you can actually be even worse at these checks, with an additional negative penalty.
    Which, again, makes sense. If you're such an oaf with the social perceptiveness and aptitude of a rock, you're hardly going to influence anyone by words or general demeanor.
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  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    It increases the maximum number of infused items but it doesn't say that you can have more than one of the same infusion. You just get to have more infusions for your armor without taking away from your overall Artificeryness, still just the one pair of boots.
    I am not talking about using your bonus slots, just having 2 sets of boots with your normal slots.

    Edit: Nevermind this completely fails due to not being able to make duplicates even on different objects, I missed that. This wrecks a lot of support artificers handying out a lot of the same item to a party :( so no matter what you want I guess your supposed to be selfish on them.

    I do find it really interesting how well this new subclass would work as a multi-class with Tempest Cleric, kind of weird stat line up but eminetly doable.
    -While the 1st level ability works pretty well with the Guardian stuff as well, establishing a catch 22. Hit me and get knocked on your ass, or get disadvantage and then get attacked with the Sentinel feat.

    -6 levels of Tempest Cleric gets you a really nasty push effect for blasting Infiltrators, which could be just nasty for zone control.
    Last edited by Citadel97501; 2020-02-25 at 06:28 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by CheddarChampion View Post
    An Ancients Paladin, an Archfey Warlock, a Fey Wanderer Ranger, and a Twilight Druid walk into a tavern...
    Could be a fun campaign!
    And yet sorcerers STILL don't have a fey-bloodline....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Fey magic: oh look, more free spells while the players handbook subclasses get ignored. It's lovely that you guys have recognized this issue, now do you mind addressing it in a way that doesn't make your own core +1 rule even harder to work with?
    That's adventures league wizards has 0% to do with it.
    Last edited by Lord Vukodlak; 2020-02-25 at 06:53 AM.
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  18. - Top - End - #48
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Vukodlak View Post
    That's adventures league wizards has 0% to do with it.
    Actually, wizards has at least 50% to do with it, because Adventurer's League runs under Wizards of the Coast supervision.
    Last edited by Arkhios; 2020-02-25 at 08:30 AM.
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  19. - Top - End - #49
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    A very good catch on that, regarding Dreadful Strikes and the order in which TWF occurs.

    Iíve brought it up to the design team via Twitter. As per usual, Iíll report back if I hear anything.
    Honestly i think it is "ok" the way it is right now. It affects the same number of attacks for every style. Even if it was unintentional, it is certainly a design space that should be explored more.

    Essentially it "fixes" the double requirement BA on Ranger Features when the Ranger uses TWF without making it unbalanced in number of activations over other, different options.
    Last edited by ThePolarBear; 2020-02-25 at 08:21 AM.

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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    After giving all of this a second look, I'm somewhat less put off. The Armorer only gets to use INT for attacks/damage with the special weapons built into its armor. This is a huge improvement on the overpowering SAD-ness of the Hexblade.

    And as others have noted, the Fey Ranger gets to use Wis where other classes would rely solely on Cha. I skimmed over the doc too quickly the first time, as I'm prone to doing on workdays. And now I'm off to bed....
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    I honesty think that the Armorer can work in any fantasy setting. Iron Man allusions besides, you don't need to look far in fantasy to find magic armor. Just need to focus on those elements a little bit more. I get more The Destroyer vibe from The Guardian as well.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Iím digging the artificer. Itís actually built in a way that would make me want to play one.

    Max int and get a good con, maybe wis. Take sharpshooter for infiltrator armor mode and sentinel for guardian armor mode and have fun all the way as I blast everyone with magitekincal might!

    Edit: also dual wielder so I can hit three times with my guardian fists and get a little extra AC
    Last edited by Mikal; 2020-02-25 at 10:30 AM.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Myself, when I make a caster, I like to go with thematic builds. My spell selections often reflect that. If I'm a Storm Mage, you can expect lots of thunder and lightning.

    One build I've been weighing heavily over the past.... Oh, maybe the last year or so, has been a Radiant caster.

    Radiant is one of the best damage types in the game, that's far from a secret. Seldom resisted and a decent selection of spells which support it.

    The issue has always been that the spells which support it are fairly spread out across the classes.

    Clerics got Guiding Bolt, but Druids got Moonbeam, but Clerics got Spirit Guardians though that's only close range. Wizards, Sorcs and Warlocks got Sickening Radiance, but none of the earlier level spells (save Divine Soul), and Clerics don't get Sunbeam-

    Enter Stars Druid.

    And its damn near perfect for this. Guiding Bolt a number of times equal to Wisdom mod, Moonbeam, Dawn (with the Class Variant UA), Sunbeam, plus the ability to use Archer Form for essentially Radiant Spiritual Weapon. Its pretty darn good for this. Plus, of course, healing and the other Druid spells.

  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigreid View Post
    Reading the 9th level armorer feature and taking the words at face vaule it seems at 9th level you can infuse the enhanced protection bonus on your armor multiple times. This would mean, again at face value your armor could give you up to a +12 over the armor's base AC, so 30 ac, potentially. They might want to take another crack at that wording.
    Except that the BIG rule of D&D is that bonuses from the same source don't stack.
    Also, you can't use the same infusion on more than one thing at a time (which is described in the Artificer's vanilla class description).


    It can let you hit your armor with multiple infusions, letting you hit the helmet, gauntlets and junk, even thought they're TECHNICALLY a part of the same slot as your Armor. But, looking over it, this is just fluff. A DM would probably let you hit each of these, anyway, if you wanna waste all of your infusions on yourself.
    I think being able to do an infusion on your fighter and one one yourself is the REAL power of this ability. You can only do 1 new infusion per long rest, and being able to swap 2 per long rest is important to your versatility and party impact.
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  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    Myself, when I make a caster, I like to go with thematic builds. My spell selections often reflect that. If I'm a Storm Mage, you can expect lots of thunder and lightning.

    One build I've been weighing heavily over the past.... Oh, maybe the last year or so, has been a Radiant caster.

    Radiant is one of the best damage types in the game, that's far from a secret. Seldom resisted and a decent selection of spells which support it.

    The issue has always been that the spells which support it are fairly spread out across the classes.

    Clerics got Guiding Bolt, but Druids got Moonbeam, but Clerics got Spirit Guardians though that's only close range. Wizards, Sorcs and Warlocks got Sickening Radiance, but none of the earlier level spells (save Divine Soul), and Clerics don't get Sunbeam-

    Enter Stars Druid.

    And its damn near perfect for this. Guiding Bolt a number of times equal to Wisdom mod, Moonbeam, Dawn (with the Class Variant UA), Sunbeam, plus the ability to use Archer Form for essentially Radiant Spiritual Weapon. Its pretty darn good for this. Plus, of course, healing and the other Druid spells.
    You and me both. I can't really play generalist wizards. I like to play "fire mage" "frost mage" etc.

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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Burley View Post
    Except that the BIG rule of D&D is that bonuses from the same source don't stack.
    Also, you can't use the same infusion on more than one thing at a time (which is described in the Artificer's vanilla class description).


    It can let you hit your armor with multiple infusions, letting you hit the helmet, gauntlets and junk, even thought they're TECHNICALLY a part of the same slot as your Armor. But, looking over it, this is just fluff. A DM would probably let you hit each of these, anyway, if you wanna waste all of your infusions on yourself.
    I think being able to do an infusion on your fighter and one one yourself is the REAL power of this ability. You can only do 1 new infusion per long rest, and being able to swap 2 per long rest is important to your versatility and party impact.
    Thanks, I missed the only one infusion of each type thing.
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Armor Model: We're copying the same stat-to damage mistake that the Hexblade made. Please don't do that. This feature also makes level 3 very busy with very strong and versatile features. Guardian especially looks strong, though I'll leave it to playtesting to show how strong.
    I'm curious why you think this is a mistake akin to the Hexblade? It already exists in the Battle Smith and is locked behind a 3 level dip, even then it's restricted to your armor weapons (which don't scale) and has some basis in fluff rather than a misguided patch for a core class feature (not to mention the issue of Cha being so multiclassing friendly).

    In the UA as a whole I really like the Armorer as is, I think the Mind Sharpener needs a usage limit though, once per short or long rest seems enough to make it a worthwhile item still. I like the Ragner but the TWF clause of their bonus damage needs to be fixed, my biggest issue to be honest is the Star Map that lets you cast Guiding Bolt for free up to 5 times a day.
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    What fixes do people think the Armorer needs? Only one I can really see is scaling down the temp HP to half the level. While I do think the INT to attack can make it super powerful, I don't think it's too much (out performing the Battle Smith not withstanding).

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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by suplee215 View Post
    What fixes do people think the Armorer needs? Only one I can really see is scaling down the temp HP to half the level. While I do think the INT to attack can make it super powerful, I don't think it's too much (out performing the Battle Smith not withstanding).
    Clean up text across the board.

    Spell list needs to be redone. It's both unfocused and a tad strong.

    The THP probably needs a buff but instead of it being at-will, allow it free once a LR and then spend a spell slot to repeat it. Same for stealth armor mini smite. Maybe LV + 2x int mod for THP and have the lighting attack scale like sneak attack.

    Scale the additional infusions at lv 9 back to one and get the second one at 15. Add them as additional infusions know as well.

    All I got so far.
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    Default Re: New Unearthed Arcana (Sub Classes 3)

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    Clean up text across the board.

    Spell list needs to be redone. It's both unfocused and a tad strong.

    The THP probably needs a buff but instead of it being at-will, allow it free once a LR and then spend a spell slot to repeat it. Same for stealth armor mini smite. Maybe LV + 2x int mod for THP and have the lighting attack scale like sneak attack.

    Scale the additional infusions at lv 9 back to one and get the second one at 15. Add them as additional infusions know as well.

    All I got so far.
    Interesting that you are making the THP totally different than I was seeing it. I saw it as too much for something every turn but want to limit it whereas you are making it less a free action. I think the goal of that ability and that armor is make a solid tank, and with a 1d8 hit dice I think temp hit points each turn for a bonus action works. Reminds me a lot of the Battle Rager THP, but should be a little higher IMO because it isn't using a barbarian chasis. I do think the lightning glauntet can use some help on damage though.

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