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    Default [3.P] Absurd Reach without being armed

    Working on an AoO build that's taking advantage of Mercurial Strike:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurial Strike
    Any time an opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from you but you are unarmed, you may draw a melee weapon and make your attack of opportunity with it. The target of your attack of opportunity is caught flat-footed for that attack.
    Most "reach monster builds" involve spiked chain nonsense or some other weird reach weapon, but that's not available with this. Is there a way to get some absolutely absurd reach with unarmed strikes or natural weapons?

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    Default Re: [3.P] Absurd Reach without being armed

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Working on an AoO build that's taking advantage of Mercurial Strike:



    Most "reach monster builds" involve spiked chain nonsense or some other weird reach weapon, but that's not available with this. Is there a way to get some absolutely absurd reach with unarmed strikes or natural weapons?
    Feats: Inhuman Reach(LoM), Serpent Fang(sand)
    Races: Amphibious Anthro: octopus, giant octopus, squid, giant squid; Anything Large or bigger; were creature hybred form for large or bigger animals

    Magic/psionic: Expansion power, Enlarge human, polymorph, wild shape (MoMF build could be pretty cool for this)

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    Default Re: [3.P] Absurd Reach without being armed

    After a wild shape class, go warshaper for an additional 5 feet of reach. Level 3 in the prestige class gets you an at-will Improved Natural Attack, crit immunity, +4 str/con, and additional 5 ft of reach with natural attacks.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Absurd Reach without being armed

    If you get you some enhanced unarmed strike with the aptitude enhancement...

    Inhuman Reach feat: +5'
    Extended Reach feat: +5'
    Morphic Reach: +5'
    Serpent's Fang: +5'
    Lunge feat (PF): +5' on your turn
    Long Strike feat (DrMag#331): +5' with a polearm on a single attack full attack action
    Psychokinetic Fists feat (UtP): +5' if you expend psionic focus, until the start of your next turn
    Long Reach Feat: Attack at +0', +5', or +10' on your turn
    Boarding Pike of Repelling: +20'
    Kiss of the Shadows (Umbral Disciple): +25' on your turn
    Marid Style feat: +5'
    Improved Whip Mastery: +5' (AoOs only)
    Combat Patrol: +20' (+5' per point of BAB; between turns only)
    Extending Weapon Enhancement: Turn into reach or reach+ weapon (2 or 3 reach)

    A couple of 3rd party things, and the rest is from 3e and PF.

    Also, throwing + distance + monk + flurry + ranged multipliers = lots and lots of throwing yourself bodily around very, very fast. Toss on a few additional enhancements and Kool-Aid Man your way through enemies. Explosively.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2020-02-24 at 06:35 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.P] Absurd Reach without being armed

    There's also Extend Tentacles, and Extended Reach from Savage Species, one is a spell and the other a feat, that add 5ft to your reach.

    A Half-Minotaur Anthropomorphic Octopus has 20ft reach naturally with their tentacles, which gives them a head start here. Mourning Mutate (because you can't have the normal feat) + Inhuman Reach gives another 5ft. Illithid Tentacle Extensions (Underdark) are expensive at 32kgp, but they also grant another 5ft of reach.

    Three levels of Knight might be worth it, as it makes the entire area you threaten difficult terrain, which means you provoke AoOs for moving through it, and it's quite a large area.

    And with Iajutsu Focus, you're basically blending anyone who moves through your area.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Absurd Reach without being armed

    Quote Originally Posted by Khatoblepas View Post
    A Half-Minotaur Anthropomorphic Octopus has 20ft reach naturally with their tentacles, which gives them a head start here. Mourning Mutate (because you can't have the normal feat) + Inhuman Reach gives another 5ft. Illithid Tentacle Extensions (Underdark) are expensive at 32kgp, but they also grant another 5ft of reach.
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    Default Re: [3.P] Absurd Reach without being armed

    Quote Originally Posted by Khatoblepas View Post
    And with Iajutsu Focus, you're basically blending anyone who moves through your area.
    This is the idea, yes.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Absurd Reach without being armed

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    This is the idea, yes.
    You cheesy munchkin you!

    Some PF stuff not already mentioned off the top of my head (this assumes "3.PF" means options from DSP's psionics and their ToB and MoI PF counterparts are allowed):

    Seize the Opportunity, feat: Pump up your AoO damage even further with Greater Vital Strike plus say Mighty Frame and greater wallop.

    Fiend's grip, warder (Fiendbound Marauder) 1 class: Pair of (Su) light reach weapons which also threaten as non-reach, each "treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons". (Mercurial Strike should work with these if it works with natural attacks.)

    Mission (protection), zealot 4 class: +5' reach while maintaining psionic focus.

    Threatening demeanor, Landsknecht 1 PrC: "considered to be threatening all squares within reach of your weapon, even if it is sheathed". This allows you to use Mercurial Strike with manufactured reach weapons (and may solve any potential issues with the wording of the feat when used with natural attacks, see below)
    .
    Superior reach, Landsknecht 4 PrC: +5' reach if "the landsknecht only attacks with a single weapon wielded in one hand during his turn".

    Sudden reach, Formless Master 2 PrC: +5' reach. (This PrC also advances a base class' features at levels 2, 3 and 4. The PrC and the prereq shifting feats can probably be great for you.)

    Unnatural reach, Mongrel 3 PrC: +5' reach. (This PrC also advances a base class' features at levels 2 and 4.)

    Long arm, 1st level spell: +5' reach with arms for minutes/CL. Get a wand!

    Elongate extremities, 1st level power: +5' or +10' reach with arms "or whatever extremities are equivalent" for up to 10 minutes/ML. Get a dorje!

    Ready the Draw, 1st level Mithral Current stance: You're "considered to be threatening all squares within reach of your weapon even if it is sheathed, and can draw your weapon when making any type of maneuver or attack (including attacks of opportunity), even while flat-footed. ... gain the benefits of the Combat Reflexes feat ... use your initiation modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier when determining the number of additional attacks of opportunity...".

    Intruder's End, 3rd level Eternal Guardian counter: 20' reach which doesn't stack, plus extra AoOs, for 1 round as immediate.

    Oath of Eternity, 9th level Eternal Guardian counter: 40' reach which doesn't stack, plus extra AoOs, AoO damage and other goodies, for 1 round as immediate.

    Grasp of the Goddess, 3rd level Sleeping Goddess boost: +5' reach and at least 1 extra AoO for at least 1 round as swift (augmentable with PP).

    Stance of the Thunderbrand, 5th level Piercing Thunder stance: +5' reach, +4 dodge and any movement whatsoever out of threatened square provokes (including poofaport attempts or an enemy about to be forcefully moved, even falling, out of a threatened square). Can give you insane lockdown power, and generate long chains of AoOs if you add a forceful movement effect to your AoO hits. Yeah, if you can afford getting IL 9 (should be easy with the right dual progression PrC), this is most likely a TOTAL WIN for you!

    Longarm bracers, 7.2k: +5' reach with arms for 1 round as swift 3/day, attacks not unarmed strikes or natural made at -4.

    Pliant gloves, 10k: +5' reach with arms for up to 10 rounds/day as swift, attacks made at -2, or -4 with two-handed.

    EDIT: Note that it's perfectly possible to get all of the above benefits except the 9th level stance on an 11th level build (dropping the warder level) with Gargantuan+ size and a pretty awesome 95' reach with some suitable gigantic bludgeoning reach weapon (even while "sheathed"). Add 5+ levels of IM plus some targeting capabilities and you should be able to IF + Vital Strike ridiculously overkill anyone or -thing so much as thinking of moving within at least a 105' radius. No natural attacks needed. /EDIT

    Out of curiosity, was Mercurial Strike originally intended to be used with some other ability I can't remember, which explicitly allows you to threaten with sheathed weapons but still be treated as unarmed for any other purposes (such as the above mentioned Landsknecht 1 feature or Mithral Current stance)? Or was it simply written by some poor schmuck who didn't bother with checking up the definitions and mechanics of the basic game terms "unarmed" and "armed"?

    How can it be made to work with natural attacks despite them making you "armed" (the very reason you to threaten with them in the first place)?
    Last edited by upho; 2020-02-25 at 08:17 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Absurd Reach without being armed

    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    EDIT: Note that it's perfectly possible to get all of the above benefits except the 9th level stance on an 11th level build (dropping the warder level) with Gargantuan+ size and a pretty awesome 95' reach with some suitable gigantic bludgeoning reach weapon (even while "sheathed"). Add 5+ levels of IM plus some targeting capabilities and you should be able to IF + Vital Strike ridiculously overkill anyone or -thing so much as thinking of moving within at least a 105' radius. No natural attacks needed. /EDIT

    Out of curiosity, was Mercurial Strike originally intended to be used with some other ability I can't remember, which explicitly allows you to threaten with sheathed weapons but still be treated as unarmed for any other purposes (such as the above mentioned Landsknecht 1 feature or Mithral Current stance)? Or was it simply written by some poor schmuck who didn't bother with checking up the definitions and mechanics of the basic game terms "unarmed" and "armed"?

    How can it be made to work with natural attacks despite them making you "armed" (the very reason you to threaten with them in the first place)?
    Lots of good material in this post, much thanks! My assumption of how it works boils down to two definitions of unarmed:

    1) not armed with any kind of weapon natural or otherwise (and thus, not threatening any area).

    2) not armed with physical weapons, so natural attacks/unarmed strike don't count against it.

    If the feat is written with the first definition in mind, it's dysfunctional. If the feat is written with the second definition in mind, it's functional. Admittedly this requires playing with a DM who agrees that this feat does anything at all, but...well, there ya go. And yeah, if I'm allowed to "threaten" with sheathed weapons, the typical reach monster BS builds get to be on the table. Iaijutsu with a spiked chain is some big anime energy. There's a popular epic brew that makes this real easy to make work at lvl 21 (lets ranged weapons threaten out to first increment), but at that point who even knows what balance is.

    Oh and another fun thing that came up as a result of this: IF is a way to turn skill bonus into damage, and the Sadism spell is a way to turn damage into skill bonus. It's probably not infinitely-looping, but if you've got the epic feat that uncaps Iaijutsu Focus, you could build up some pretty serious DPR and "bonus to all skills for one round" numbers, especially if you're Iaijutsu Master 5. If you're using Librim Eternia (that common brew I mentioned), you could use stuff like this to fuel epic spellcasting even.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Absurd Reach without being armed

    Quote Originally Posted by Khatoblepas View Post
    A Half-Minotaur Anthropomorphic Octopus has 20ft reach naturally with their tentacles, which gives them a head start here.
    Anthropomorphic Giant Octopus is almost always a better choice than regular octopus, because they got hit harder by being reduced to medium size, leaving them with an ironically lower level adjustment.

    I think all my ideas for extending reach have already been mentioned, but I will throw out that the Mercurial Strike + Iaijutsu Focus combo plays extremely well with Karmic Strike and/or Robilar's Gambit.

    ... wait, no, I do have one more. The Eldritch Glaive warlock invocation is not a weapon (as far as I know, being "weaponlike" does nothing for counting as armed), but does double your reach as a reach weapon until the start of your next turn. To take advantage of this, you'd probably have to draw an actual polearm as part of Mercurial Strike and attack with that (then dropping it if you want remain unarmed after the attack); or arguably draw a dagger or something to activate iaijutsu focus, drop it, and just smack them with the Eldritch Glaive for the bonus damage (I've always found this interpretation of the rules cheesy, but YMMV). If you go for the second one, it's probably worth investing another feat in Shorten Grip to smack people in the 'non-reach weapon zone' with the Glaive (this takes advantage of the fact that you attack with the invocation as if it were a glaive, and the feat lets you attack adjacent targets with a glaive).
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    Default Re: [3.P] Absurd Reach without being armed

    Would bloodstorm blade count for anything? It does allow you to use Iron Heart melee attacks at range.

    The blood wind spell, from Savage Species, allows you to use ranged melee attacks from a natural weapon. Chain it to different natural weapons, maybe? Or just take the Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike feats for multiple attacks. Or take a level in monk and use it for your unarmed strikes. Even better if you've got the Beast Strike feat and add on your claw or slam attack damage to your unarmed strikes. (Note that it adds the full damage, not base damage, so double your Str bonus and other damage bonuses, as well.) Even better if you Enlarge the spell (maybe?) and add the distance weapon quality somehow to quadruple your range.

    [edit] Nah, just checked blood wind. It's not very metamagic-friendly. Though casting it multiple times on yourself would help (or Twinning, Echoing, and Repeating it).
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2020-02-27 at 07:38 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.P] Absurd Reach without being armed

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    Anthropomorphic Giant Octopus is almost always a better choice than regular octopus, because they got hit harder by being reduced to medium size, leaving them with an ironically lower level adjustment.
    Whoops, I forgot that bit, but with all the adjectives already Half Minotaur Anthropomorphic Giant Octopus is a bit of a mouthful to remember.

    I've been thinking about it, and would Stormguard Warrior be useful in this situation?

    Channel the Storm: To use this option, you must choose to refrain from making one or more available attacks of opportunity against a single opponent: On your next turn, you gain a +4 bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls for each attack that you refrained from making against the same opponent. You gain this bonus only against an opponent that you refrain from making an attack of opportunity against in the previous round.
    Moving out of a threatened square provokes an AoO, and you have a lot of threatened squares they can move out of. Each 5ft of movement would be +4 atk/damage, and cost you no attacks of opportunity, because you're not making them. That's +36 if they manage to move the minimum 45ft towards you to reach you, not to mention the Robliar's Gambit/Karmic Strike bonuses.

    That's a real Threatening Aura.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Absurd Reach without being armed

    Quote Originally Posted by Khatoblepas View Post
    Whoops, I forgot that bit, but with all the adjectives already Half Minotaur Anthropomorphic Giant Octopus is a bit of a mouthful to remember.

    I've been thinking about it, and would Stormguard Warrior be useful in this situation?



    Moving out of a threatened square provokes an AoO, and you have a lot of threatened squares they can move out of. Each 5ft of movement would be +4 atk/damage, and cost you no attacks of opportunity, because you're not making them. That's +36 if they manage to move the minimum 45ft towards you to reach you, not to mention the Robliar's Gambit/Karmic Strike bonuses.

    That's a real Threatening Aura.
    It sorta works but not quite that well. We could probably debate the pure RAW of it, but my assumption is that if I brought it to a DM they'd rule that the "no more than one AoO per triggering action". Don't get me wrong, it's still fantastic especially if I can collect tons of ways for AoOs to trigger, but it's hardly "one per square" good.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Absurd Reach without being armed

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Lots of good material in this post, much thanks!
    You're welcome! I can probably give some additional suggestions once you've got an idea of a basic build outline (see also below).

    My assumption of how it works boils down to two definitions of unarmed:

    1) not armed with any kind of weapon natural or otherwise (and thus, not threatening any area).

    2) not armed with physical weapons, so natural attacks/unarmed strike don't count against it.

    If the feat is written with the first definition in mind, it's dysfunctional. If the feat is written with the second definition in mind, it's functional. Admittedly this requires playing with a DM who agrees that this feat does anything at all, but...well, there ya go.
    Yeah, the poorly worded "unarmed"/"armed" definitions make for a murky mess. Though if disregarding MS, I personally sure find the first definition you mention the most consistent with other stuff, in a way including even the rest of the feat description (e.g., why draw a weapon when you're obviously already "armed" with one and perfectly capable of attacking with it?). But considering the lack of an accompanying ability - like the mentioned "threaten with sheathed" PF stuff - in OA, it's obvious the designer of MS assumed the second definition is correct, and as a DM in a 3.PF game I'd definitely also allow that definition as a specific exception in the context of using MS.

    And yeah, if I'm allowed to "threaten" with sheathed weapons, the typical reach monster BS builds get to be on the table. Iaijutsu with a spiked chain is some big anime energy.
    Definitely. With heavy emphasis on the word "big".

    Speaking of "big", now that I've looked at IF again and was reminded of the 9d6 cap, as a means to increase damage in general, and AoO damage in particular, it appears to me that IF actually has a pretty darn pathetic return on investment in comparison to the mentioned Seize the Opportunity + Vital Strike combo. I mean, compare the AoO damage of the most high-op IF focused 20th level build you can imagine to, say:

    Angel-blooded aasimar barbarian (Primal Disciple) 2, formless master 4, guru 1, rajah (Batal) 10, vizier 3

    Size Gargantuan; Reach 65'+, threatens all within a 75'+ radius
    Large aasimar of feelkha heritage, metamorphosis; 20' natural, 20' spine flail reach weapon, 5' formless master, 5' Stance of the Thunderbrand, 10' elongate extremities, 5' long arm

    Armory of the Conqueror essence capacity 11 (damage die size increased by 6 steps/categories)
    4 level, 1 rajah, 1 guru, 1 vizier, 1 Enhanced Capacity, 3 greater akashic catalyst

    Flail/Unarmed Damage Die 4d8 Large 20th level monk ➔ 12d8 Colossal weapon ➔ 96d8 Armory of the Conqueror
    Ascetic Strike, monk's robe, Mighty Frame

    AoO Damage from Weapon Die: 3072
    96d8 flail damage die, 4 rolls (384d8) Greater Vital Strike & Seize the Opportunity, max result (384 x 8) Furious Finish

    I think you'd get a lot more bang for your buck by ditching IF and going for a StO + VS build (one more sensible than the above).

    There's a popular epic brew that makes this real easy to make work at lvl 21 (lets ranged weapons threaten out to first increment), but at that point who even knows what balance is.
    Holy crap! And here I thought the Winds of Vengeance Stance was enough... In a 3.PF game, this means you can threaten everything within at least 350' with even more absurd overkill AoO damage - 768d6 maximized to 4,608 damage - and fantastic accuracy vs touch AC by wielding a fiend's mouth cannon (only Huge size and 1+ levels of Gunsmoke Mystic is required). Yeah, that really does belong with the rest of the epic craziness.

    Oh and another fun thing that came up as a result of this: IF is a way to turn skill bonus into damage, and the Sadism spell is a way to turn damage into skill bonus. It's probably not infinitely-looping, but if you've got the epic feat that uncaps Iaijutsu Focus, you could build up some pretty serious DPR and "bonus to all skills for one round" numbers, especially if you're Iaijutsu Master 5. If you're using Librim Eternia (that common brew I mentioned), you could use stuff like this to fuel epic spellcasting even.
    That's actually pretty sweet, if for nothing else than the hilarity of suddenly becoming fantastically skilled and educated for a few seconds each time you turn a monster into fine red mist!

    EDIT: Changed the Monastic Legacy feat to the monk's robe. Seems I always forget it's the robe and not the feat which stacks with the monk's US damage granted by Ascetic Strike... /EDIT
    Last edited by upho; 2020-02-28 at 02:10 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.P] Absurd Reach without being armed

    Quote Originally Posted by Khatoblepas View Post
    Moving out of a threatened square provokes an AoO, and you have a lot of threatened squares they can move out of. Each 5ft of movement would be +4 atk/damage, and cost you no attacks of opportunity, because you're not making them. That's +36 if they manage to move the minimum 45ft towards you to reach you, not to mention the Robliar's Gambit/Karmic Strike bonuses.
    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    It sorta works but not quite that well. We could probably debate the pure RAW of it, but my assumption is that if I brought it to a DM they'd rule that the "no more than one AoO per triggering action". Don't get me wrong, it's still fantastic especially if I can collect tons of ways for AoOs to trigger, but it's hardly "one per square" good.
    FWIW, this was actually explained in the PF rules and FAQ, saying a specific provoking event can only occur once per action.

    For example, a creature's movement granted by a single action it takes never generates more than one single "about to leave threatened square"-provocation per enemy. This is regardless of how many times the moving creature is about to leave a square threatened by a certain enemy during this movement, and even though each threatening enemy may decide for themselves which specific "about to leave threatened square"-instance that provokes. IOW, "movement out of threatened square(s)" resulting from a single action is a single triggering event for each threatening enemy, not several separate ones.

    Note that a single action may very well generate multiple different provoking events. For example, if you have Greater Trip ("whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes") and Vicious Stomp ("whenever an opponent falls prone adjacent to you, that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from you"), each time you trip an adjacent opponent, your one action generates two different provoking events; 1) "you successfully trip" and 2) "opponent falls prone". So the tripped enemy provokes twice from you and at least once from each other creature who threatens the tripped opponent.

    This typically works fine and according to most people's intuitions IME, although the rules can still be a bit murky (or non-existent) when it comes to dealing with multiple simultaneous triggering events and other effects (such as when one of your attacks have hit effects capable of both generating separate triggers and preventing you from acting on those triggers).

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