Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

[Kornaki]

Oona's turn in the round came after Minrah's, and the spell ends before the start of Minrah's next turn.

So when she said, my spell is almost over, but I can.... She was going to complete that with " talk as a free action?". She clearly thought she had one turn left to attack

[Wildstag]

Yeah, well we know that talking isn't a free action in this world, since V has lost rounds in the past due to their verbosity.

[Emanick]

Yeah, well we know that talking isn't a free action in this world, since V has lost rounds in the past due to their verbosity.

According to Haley, speaking is a free action - unless you're "particularly verbose," anyway.

[dancrilis]

Durkon Allotrope Thundershield
Abilities:
Spells:

Should Durkon have 'Call Lightning' and the 'Storm' Domain - in DCF page D he casts it after referencing Thor's as the 'mast'r o' tha storm'.

[Squire Doodad]

This may be a bit on the speculative side of things, but the evidence for Celia's strength is listed as 12+ because she can pull the cart, but I think there's more concrete evidence for her strength being at least 14+.

On 315, Celia is able to lift Roy off the ground and into the sky above the city. Given that he's an adult male (and though height can be wonky in the comic, 670 shows his height in contrast to O'Chul's and Hinjo, whom he appears to be taller than both of), if her Strength score was as low as 12, Roy would have to be no more than 130 pounds or else she wouldn't even be able to lift him off the ground. That seems pretty low for an active soldier's weight (which through work, I can speak somewhat about).

More likely, his weight is in the 160-180 ballpark. If this were to be assumed, then her Strength could be 14 and still fly with Roy as a heavy load. If he's no more than 175, she can lift him off the ground and fly with less than optimal modifiers. If we assume he's closer to 200, than her Strength would be 15+, but I think 14+ is the more conservative option.

Given that Celia is a law student and and lives in the Plane of Air, it would seem more plausible to me personally that she has invested in flight-related abilities over having significant Strength.

That said, we have no concrete confirmation that she has that instead of 14+ STR, which is surprisingly reasonable.

I do agree that she is evidently a Sorceror who does not have any necromancy spells given the Hobgoblin guard scene.

[danielxcutter]

Anyone think Oona might have Dispelling morningstars?

[dancrilis]

So when she said, my spell is almost over, but I can.... She was going to complete that with " talk as a free action?". She clearly thought she had one turn left to attack

"My spell is almost over, but I can ... still engage him/still distrupt him casting/still fight/etc" - her spell running out doesn't change that she has all the options she normally does when the spell is not in use.

[Kornaki]

"My spell is almost over, but I can ... still engage him/still distrupt him casting/still fight/etc" - her spell running out doesn't change that she has all the options she normally does when the spell is not in use.

Yeah ok, this does seem reasonable.

[Crusher]

If I may split your splitting of the twice-split hair, you said "But what's the point of forums if you can't argue over minutia?" Are you implying that your intention with that question was that the point of internet message forums in general is so that we are all able to argue over the difference between maces and morning stars? I for one feel deeply honored to be here as forums achieve their destiny! To think, everything, all the way back to BBS's, Usenet, AOL, all of it has been building to this!!!

And what a triumphant crescendo it is. Sort of.

Very on-brand for 2020, really.

[Riftwolf]

Anyone think Oona might have Dispelling morningstars?

Are those a thing? I don't think those are a thing (though it'd balance out wizards a bit if they were!)

[Wildstag]

Further evidence for Celia's Strength being 14+ is that we actually do see her picking up a person and still moving more than 5 feet in a combat encounter.

On page 613, we see Celia swoop by and pick up Haley. The average human female will weigh 140 pounds according to d20srd (average of 2d10= 11, average of 2d4 = 5; 55+ 85 = 140). If her Strength was as low as 12, Haley would be above her heavy load limit. This could make her Strength 13+, but in light of her ability to move Roy as well, I think 14+ is a far better estimate.

I saw it mentioned elsewhere in the thread that assumptions (to ignore weight limits) are made when assuming a magical flight speed, such as through the Fly spell, but as was also pointed out in that comment, assumptions are not made when considering creatures with a natural fly speed. We can also clearly see that Celia is using her wings to fly, as in the same panel that she picks up Haley, we also see motion-lines next to her wings (faint, but visible).

In summation, the Strength score for Celia should be changed to 14+ in light of this discussion, as we have reasonable evidence to believe that it fits her score better than a 12+ would.

[ByzantiumBhuka]

So Durkon just survived Redcloak's Disintegrate.

If Redcloak is level 17, then an unsuccessful Fortitude save would lead to an 34d6 (avg. 119) points of damage. It's very, very unlikely that a Durkon with only 13 levels and 12 CON (avg. 75 hp) could survive such a blow; a 18 CON (avg. 114 hp) is the lowest that could really stand a chance. And this is more a subjective judgement, but it seems unlikely that a successful Fort save, for 5d6 (avg. 17.5) damage, looks like the scale of wounds depicted. Does a stat need to be adjusted here?

[understatement]

Looks like Xykon has Telekinesis as a spell.

Oona has (or had) a...jar of bugs?

It's likely Redcloak rolled high on 5d6 damage. Compare Durkon to Hinjo in#480 (who failed his save against Disintegration).

[Schroeswald]

So Durkon just survived Redcloak's Disintegrate.

If Redcloak is level 17, then an unsuccessful Fortitude save would lead to an 34d6 (avg. 119) points of damage. It's very, very unlikely that a Durkon with only 13 levels and 12 CON (avg. 75 hp) could survive such a blow; a 18 CON (avg. 114 hp) is the lowest that could really stand a chance. And this is more a subjective judgement, but it seems unlikely that a successful Fort save, for 5d6 (avg. 17.5) damage, looks like the scale of wounds depicted. Does a stat need to be adjusted here?

Why are we assuming that everything is average? We don't do that (if we did we'd have a much higher level for Right-Eye for one), he survived minimum 5 damage, maximum 204, and the current stats would be maximum 117 damage, which is perfectly within the possible damage of Disentigrate (for the record, yes, his constitution is almost certainly more the 12, but there's no proof of that.

[Ephemera]

Why are we assuming that everything is average? We don't do that (if we did we'd have a much higher level for Right-Eye for one), he survived minimum 5 damage, maximum 204, and the current stats would be maximum 117 damage, which is perfectly within the possible damage of Disentigrate (for the record, yes, his constitution is almost certainly more the 12, but there's no proof of that.

That right, we don't assume average rolls, and I doubt that we can establish a useful minimum or maximum based on the damage range. Given that, I also don't feel it's reasonable to make any assumptions based on visual effects of whether or not he made his save--it's relatively likely that the visual damage scales with the actual damage done, but since the range between "made his save" and "failed it" have a large overlap, that's totally inconclusive.

A question that might have an answer...what's Oona doing, mechanically, with the jar of bugs? Is that a beastmaster ability or spell in action or something extra-mechanical going on?

[ByzantiumBhuka]

A question that might have an answer...what's Oona doing, mechanically, with the jar of bugs? Is that a beastmaster ability or spell in action or something extra-mechanical going on?

Swarms generally have a Distraction ability, which forces a Fort save vs. being nauseated and only being able to take a move action per round. That fits pretty well with what we're seeing...

[b_jonas]

So Durkon just survived Redcloak's Disintegrate.

If Redcloak is level 17, then an unsuccessful Fortitude save would lead to an 34d6 (avg. 119) points of damage. It's very, very unlikely that a Durkon with only 13 levels and 12 CON (avg. 75 hp) could survive such a blow; a 18 CON (avg. 114 hp) is the lowest that could really stand a chance.

Durkon was prepared for this battle. He probably used some pretty strong buffs here. And Redcloak used to use the Disintegrate spell too, so it's something that Durkon would consider.

[Quartz]

Looks like Xykon has Telekinesis as a spell.

The stone head is too heavy for Mage Hand, and it's clearly not a Bugsby's XYZ Hand spell. Spectral Hand cannot be used to lift things as it is incorporeal. Levitate is not a possibility as the caster is not allowed to move the object horizontally. Fly cannot be cast on an object. Could it possibly be Feather Fall, as that lasts 1 round per level? Are there any other alternatives?

[Kornaki]

Feather fall wouldn't be able to lift the head up though.

[Peelee]

The stone head is too heavy for Mage Hand, and it's clearly not a Bugsby's XYZ Hand spell. Spectral Hand cannot be used to lift things as it is incorporeal. Levitate is not a possibility as the caster is not allowed to move the object horizontally. Fly cannot be cast on an object. Could it possibly be Feather Fall, as that lasts 1 round per level? Are there any other alternatives?

A few possibilities: Mage Hand is more powerful in Stickworld, it is a Bugsby's X Hand spell and the hand visual is optional, it is a purely homebrewed Xykon's Hand spell.

[understatement]

It's possible Xykon decided to switch out Teleport (the last time he was confirmed to use it had been SOD, which was several decades ago), especially since he has the greater teleport version.

ETA: Which conveniently frees up a 5th level spell for Xykon, since O-Chul's list had an unknown 5th.

[danielxcutter]

Does Greater Mage Hand work? I think it's in Spell Compendium.

[b_jonas]

The stone head is too heavy for Mage Hand, and it's clearly not a Bugsby's XYZ Hand spell. Spectral Hand cannot be used to lift things as it is incorporeal. Levitate is not a possibility as the caster is not allowed to move the object horizontally. Fly cannot be cast on an object. Could it possibly be Feather Fall, as that lasts 1 round per level? Are there any other alternatives?

Good question. Levitate might still work if Xykon pushes the head horizontally himself, which shouldn't be too hard. Or the head may still count as an animated object, in which case Fly could work, but in that case I don't understand why Xykon still has a dweomer connected to it. Understatement mentions that Xykon could have Greater Teleport instead of Teleport, so that could work too. Unseen Servant doesn't work: it can lift 20 pounds, which might be just enough (and Xykon can have more than one of them), but doesn't work to move the head up a high vertical cliff.

[Quartz]

Good question. Levitate might still work if Xykon pushes the head horizontally himself, which shouldn't be too hard.

That's explicitly forbidden in the spell description.

You cannot move the recipient horizontally,

Or the head may still count as an animated object, in which case Fly could work,

Fly can only be cast on a creature.

Target: Creature touched

A possibility I forgot to include is that it could be a DC 0 Epic spell that Xykon whipped up on the fly. But that's being lazy.

[InvisibleBison]

That's explicitly forbidden in the spell description.

It seems to me that the text you quoted is referring specifically to moving the recipient horizontally via the spell. After all, the recipient can move themselves horizontally, so your interpretation would cause the spell to contradict itself if you cast it on yourself.

Fly can only be cast on a creature.

An animated object is a creature.

[Quartz]

It seems to me that the text you quoted is referring specifically to moving the recipient horizontally via the spell. After all, the recipient can move themselves horizontally, so your interpretation would cause the spell to contradict itself if you cast it on yourself.

That's the difference: a recipient can move themselves, when in contact with a surface; the caster - if someone else - cannot.

An animated object is a creature.

Is the head still animated?

[danielxcutter]

I'm pretty sure the statue as an animated object is "dead".

[b_jonas]

I'm pretty sure the statue as an animated object is "dead".

It might be, because it has rather few hit points, and Durkon probably dealt enough damage, but we see its eyes and they're not X-es, so we can't be sure.

[Quartz]

An animated object is a creature.

Really?

The Animate Objects spell doesn't say it grants that. It doesn't grant Cha 1 or Wis 1, for instance.

[dancrilis]

Really?

The Animate Objects spell doesn't say it grants that. It doesn't grant Cha 1 or Wis 1, for instance.

The spell turns the creature into an animated object which is a creature of type construct (and has a Wis and Cha of 1).