Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

[Rogar Demonblud]

I don't think you need 21+ levels in a caster class to take Epic Spellcasting, but it sounded more like "maybe he could have since I haven't pinned down his level, but it's not terribly likely that he qualified and even if he did it just doesn't really fit his character" to me.

True, but given the double hit for cross-class skills and the fact that few classes other than casters have the skills needed as class skills, you'll get there much faster if you're a 21st level caster.

[Doug Lampert]

True, but given the double hit for cross-class skills and the fact that few classes other than casters have the skills needed as class skills, you'll get there much faster if you're a 21st level caster.

4 levels of ranger (say) followed by 17 levels of illusionist wizard (say) would get you there without ever needing to take cross class skills at level 21.

We don't know Girard's multiclass or build, but if Rich wanted him to have Epic spells he could, if Rich does not, he can't.

[Wildstag]

Even a bog-standard Death Ward works just fine, and Durkon has a custom Mass Death Ward(with backdoor) as a 7th-level spell he researched.

Well, a backdoor unknown to anyone living or unliving, and presumably wasn't written down (because why leave a paper trail of your double-cross if you want the plan to succeed?), so it's not really an issue to use.

[danielxcutter]

4 levels of ranger (say) followed by 17 levels of illusionist wizard (say) would get you there without ever needing to take cross class skills at level 21.

We don't know Girard's multiclass or build, but if Rich wanted him to have Epic spells he could, if Rich does not, he can't.

Girard is a Sorcerer I believe, and said himself that he had two levels of Ranger.

Well, a backdoor unknown to anyone living or unliving, and presumably wasn't written down (because why leave a paper trail of your double-cross if you want the plan to succeed?), so it's not really an issue to use.

Yeah, I just pointed it out because Mass Death Ward is a preexisting 8th-level spell that Rich didn't know about and also doesn't have that backdoor.

[Rogar Demonblud]

4 levels of ranger (say) followed by 17 levels of illusionist wizard (say) would get you there without ever needing to take cross class skills at level 21.

No it wouldn't. Skill purchases are determined by the class you're taking. Rangers don't have Spellcraft as a class skill, and an illusionist wizard would be an arcane caster, requiring 24 ranks in Knowledge Arcana, which is also not on their list, so you'd need to pay cross-class tax. You'd get level+3 for the wizard skills (so twenty) and would need 4 ranks in the cross-class skills (which you can only acquire a half rank at a time). So Wiz(ill) 17/Ranger 8.

The skills system is kind of wonky and could use some simplifying.

[danielxcutter]

No it wouldn't. Skill purchases are determined by the class you're taking. Rangers don't have Spellcraft as a class skill, and an illusionist wizard would be an arcane caster, requiring 24 ranks in Knowledge Arcana, which is also not on their list, so you'd need to pay cross-class tax. You'd get level+3 for the wizard skills (so twenty) and would need 4 ranks in the cross-class skills (which you can only acquire a half rank at a time). So Wiz(ill) 17/Ranger 8.

The skills system is kind of wonky and could use some simplifying.

Uh, no, that's not how it works. The skill rank max is determined by character level, and if it's a class skill for any of your classes then the max is always HD +3. And you can put more than one point in a skill per level, provided you have enough points.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The limit is character level+3, because level adjustments are a thing. And I reread the entire skills section on the SRD and it only says you can put one skill point in per level except at character creation, where you're capped at level+3.

[Doug Lampert]

The limit is character level+3, because level adjustments are a thing. And I reread the entire skills section on the SRD and it only says you can put one skill point in per level except at character creation, where you're capped at level+3.

There is no such limit to one per level.

If you buy a class skill, your character gets 1 rank (equal to a +1 bonus on checks with that skill) for each skill point. If you buy other classes’ skills (cross-class skills), you get ½ rank per skill point.

Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3.

Your maximum rank in a cross-class skill is one-half of this number (do not round up or down).

So you don't buy the skills at all as a ranger. Then as a sorcerer or wizard you dump in 6 or so skill ranks in a single level.

[dancrilis]

Oona
Feats: Animal Affinity (required for Beast Heart), Two-Weapon Fighting.
Skills: Handle Animal 8, Knowledge: Arcana 4, Knowledge: Dungeoneering 4 (all required for Beast Heart Adept)

I think there is a arguement for giving Oona the Track feat and maybe some survival.

Arguements in favour: She actively tracks Durkon and Minrah with confidence.
Arguements against: Survival is not trained only, and Tracking can be done without the feat if the DC is 10 or less.

To me it looks like Hard Ground (DC 20) but an arguements could be made about the snow making it Very Soft Ground (DC 5) or Soft Ground (DC 10).

[Rogar Demonblud]

The whole place is multidimensional stone.

Also, it looks like Minrah is smarter than Durkon. Not that learning that gives us anything to work with.

[Crusher]

I don't think you need 21+ levels in a caster class to take Epic Spellcasting, but it sounded more like "maybe he could have since I haven't pinned down his level, but it's not terribly likely that he qualified and even if he did it just doesn't really fit his character" to me.

Oh, looks like you're right. I'd misremembered the requirements. Girard's entry at the start of this thread has him as Ranger 2/Sorcerer 19+ so he'd *probably* have met the requirements to take Epic Spellcasting, he just didn't for whatever reason. Which is reasonable. He might have figured he'd pick it up down the road and just never got around to it.

[Peelee]

The whole place is multidimensional stone.

Also, it looks like Minrah is smarter than Durkon. Not that learning that gives us anything to work with.

A single instance of improving a plan does not make a definitive statement about relative intelligence.

[Metastachydium]

A single instance of improving a plan does not make a definitive statement about relative intelligence.

Especially that right before that she was about to lead Team Evil right to the Order.

[b_jonas]

dancrilis: From the sixteenth to eighteenth panel it looks like Greyview may be helping Oona with the tracking. D&D actually has rules about teaching a dog to track by using their sense of smell, though I don't know whether this is possible in the particular case of Oona and Greyview the worg. Can Oona teach Greyview even if she's a Ranger rather than a Druid? If Greyview can track, would that enable Oona to do this without having the feat herself?

[dancrilis]

dancrilis: From the sixteenth to eighteenth panel it looks like Greyview may be helping Oona with the tracking. D&D actually has rules about teaching a dog to track by using their sense of smell, though I don't know whether this is possible in the particular case of Oona and Greyview the worg. Can Oona teach Greyview even if she's a Ranger rather than a Druid? If Greyview can track, would that enable Oona to do this without having the feat herself?

Greyview is not an animal they are a magical beast - and worgs have track as part of the worg feat set (assuming standard feats) and a bonus to tracking by scent, but if Greyview was doing the tracking I suspect that Oona would not have claimed that the tracks were talking to her.

[Ephemera]

dancrilis: From the sixteenth to eighteenth panel it looks like Greyview may be helping Oona with the tracking. D&D actually has rules about teaching a dog to track by using their sense of smell, though I don't know whether this is possible in the particular case of Oona and Greyview the worg. Can Oona teach Greyview even if she's a Ranger rather than a Druid? If Greyview can track, would that enable Oona to do this without having the feat herself?

Technically, Oona can probably use handle animal as a cross-class skill no matter what. If someone else taught the trick, then getting them to execute it is a DC 10 check, so even though handle animal is trained-only, she doesn't need more than 1 rank to have succeeded. But in any case, handle animal is a class skill for rangers, so no problem there. I'm not totally sure that "The animal tracks the scent presented to it," fits what we see here but since Greyview can talk and almost surely has scent, for sure Greyview could be tracking.

Given that we don't see Greyview leading the way, or communicating with Oona, I think we have to say that either Oona is doing the tracking, or that she has some sort of a ability to use Greyview's senses a lot more directly, like familiar style, which is pretty far beyond the handle animal skill.

Also in this comic, we see Xykon apparently using Telekinesis (or whatever spell he used on the statue head) to open the dungeon door. It seems a little profligate to be burning another 5th-level spell slot to open a door that he presumably knows isn't trapped (and we saw Durkon and Minrah open it, so we know it's not too heavy for Xykon to open it "by hand" either). I guess we can't conclude anything in particular except thay Xykon has plenty of spell slots of higher levels (which we already knew, of course).

Edit: mostly ninja-ed.

[b_jonas]

Also in this comic, we see Xykon apparently using Telekinesis (or whatever spell he used on the statue head) to open the dungeon door.

We figured he used Telekinesis because he lifted the statue head and it's heavy. For opening a door, a low level spell would work: Mage Hand (zeroth level spell) for typical doors, an Unseen Servant (first level) or multiple Unseen Servants together or Knock (second level) for doors that are particularly difficult to open or are stuck. It's likely that the door is easy to move after the dwarves pushed the snow out from its way and they didn't have much difficulty opening it, in which case Mage Hand would be enough. And note that the description of the Mage Hand spell specifically says “You point your finger at an object”, and that's exactly what Xykon is doing. In contrast, Telekinesis is described as “You move objects or creatures by concentrating on them”, so pointing is optional.

[Gurgeh]

Agreed that it's reasonable to list Oona as having Track; given Track and the two-weapon fighting she's exhibited, it would also be reasonable (though not irrefutable) to infer that she has levels in Ranger.

I'd also be in favour of allowing Ranger as an alternative to high dex for her two-weapon fighting - unless presenting two alternatives is too awkward for the thread?

Also, re-examining her assumed levels - is there any reason the other class is listed as 3+ rather than 2+? Beast Heart Adept's level-gating requirement is eight ranks in Handle Animal, which is possible from as low as CL 5 (assuming at least one of the levels involved has Handle Animal as a class skill) - so three racial HD plus two class levels should be sufficient.

[understatement]

We figured he used Telekinesis because he lifted the statue head and it's heavy. For opening a door, a low level spell would work: Mage Hand (zeroth level spell) for typical doors, an Unseen Servant (first level) or multiple Unseen Servants together or Knock (second level) for doors that are particularly difficult to open or are stuck. It's likely that the door is easy to move after the dwarves pushed the snow out from its way and they didn't have much difficulty opening it, in which case Mage Hand would be enough. And note that the description of the Mage Hand spell specifically says “You point your finger at an object”, and that's exactly what Xykon is doing. In contrast, Telekinesis is described as “You move objects or creatures by concentrating on them”, so pointing is optional.

The door is unlikely to weigh five pounds or less.

[b_jonas]

The door is unlikely to weigh five pounds or less.

Xykon doesn't have to lift it, because it opens sideways. We can see as much from the strip.

[TooSoon]

It's early, but this is a pretty good thread title at some point.

I think that the idea that Xykon is doing a lot of spontaneous epic spell invention is something we shouldn't take into account unless he says something about it, it's just counter to the principle of trying to pin things down, and also I think would violate the storytelling which has relatively clearly made a thing of Xykon having a spell list and epic spells being, well, epic and not casual.

It's not impossible by game mechanics but it's like random splatbooks, it opens up too many possibilities and prevents us from concluding anything...

Agreed, and I also support the spell being TK. Stuff like this "you can't prove it's not epic telekinesis" is up there with invisible metamagic rods; it has no place on this thread IMO.

I'm on the look out now for V demonstrating they are at level 17. In my mind they already are, given the amount of time they've been level 16+ and the experience accumulated since then it is a foregone conclusion in my mind and we're just awaiting the evidence.

[danielxcutter]

Also maybe Greyview is just using Aid Another to boost Oona's Survival check?

[Emanick]

Also maybe Greyview is just using Aid Another to boost Oona's Survival check?

This strikes me as being reasonably likely. If I had to guess, I'd say that's probably what's going on here.

[Quartz]

Agreed, and I also support the spell being TK. Stuff like this "you can't prove it's not epic telekinesis" is up there with invisible metamagic rods; it has no place on this thread IMO.

As the proposer of the former, I actually agree, but since the thread actually insists on considering the latter we must abide by those terms.

And now a question: is Xykon's Superb Dispelling actually Disjunction? In #1216 Redcloak suggests Xykon use his Superb Dispelling to strip all the dwarves' enchantments. Dispel Magic - on which the ELH Superb Dispelling is based - doesn't work that way (see also the Dispel seed in the ELH). Xykon would have to cast that spell twice to affect both dwarves. But Disjunction does. Are the previous times Xykon has used Superb Dispelling consistent with Disjunction? Alternatively, Xykon could have added an area effect to the ELH Superb Dispelling - +12 DC - or an extra target - +10 DC.

[danielxcutter]

As the proposer of the former, I actually agree, but since the thread actually insists on considering the latter we must abide by those terms.

And now a question: is Xykon's Superb Dispelling actually Disjunction? In #1216 Redcloak suggests Xykon use his Superb Dispelling to strip all the dwarves' enchantments. Dispel Magic - on which the ELH Superb Dispelling is based - doesn't work that way (see also the Dispel seed in the ELH). Xykon would have to cast that spell twice to affect both dwarves. But Disjunction does. Are the previous times Xykon has used Superb Dispelling consistent with Disjunction? Alternatively, Xykon could have added an area effect to the ELH Superb Dispelling - +12 DC - or an extra target - +10 DC.

One Superb Dispelling would certainly would strip the buffs off one of them, though. Since Xykon probably isn't casting Cloister, he likely has two epic slots left. So he's capable of stripping all their buffs, but it makes sense that he wouldn't want to unless it was necessary. I'd probably act the same way, honestly.

[TooSoon]

One Superb Dispelling would certainly would strip the buffs off one of them, though. Since Xykon probably isn't casting Cloister, he likely has two epic slots left. So he's capable of stripping all their buffs, but it makes sense that he wouldn't want to unless it was necessary. I'd probably act the same way, honestly.

We recently disussed Xykon's level on this very thread, and pretty much everyone agreed that the reference to the invisible metamagic rod should be removed.

[danielxcutter]

We recently disussed Xykon's level on this very thread, and pretty much everyone agreed that the reference to the invisible metamagic rod should be removed.

...And your point is? Not sure what you meant by that. That being said, now that I think of it there might not be a guarantee he has three slots left because he'd have to have a character level of at least 27 or higher for that. He still likely has at least one left. Maybe Redcloak just doesn't know the specifics?

Oh, by the way, it can't be Disjunction because that would have nuked all of V's items as well. Also in Xykon's entry the links for Sorcerer 21+ all lead to the same page(#429), I'm pretty sure he needs at least a mention of an unspecified domination spell because he used one on the MitD, and what was the basis for adding the "unspecified item that increases Spellcraft"?

[Quartz]

Oh, by the way, it can't be Disjunction because that would have nuked all of V's items as well.

They could have all made their saves.

and what was the basis for adding the "unspecified item that increases Spellcraft"?

Quite. I did the maths way back and if you assume no items and the Superb Dispelling in the ELH, Xykon is at least level 27 plus or minus his Int bonus, with a floor of level 23. He only needs two Epic feats: Epic Spellcasting (which we already know he has) and Epic Skill Focus: Spellcraft.

Spoiler: Maths

Show

The DC for Superb Dispelling is 59. If Xykon Takes 10 he needs +49.
26 Ranks of Spellcraft at level 23 gives +26
25 Ranks of Knowledge: Arcana gives +4 Synergy Bonus (+30 so far)
Skill Focus gives +3 (+33 so far)
Epic Skill Focus gives +10 (+43 so far)

So we need to find +6 from somewhere. That can come from levels or Int bonus or both. The top of the thread guesstimates his Int at 15 which gives +2 which leaves +4 to find from levels, which means level 27+.

And being level 27 means he can fit in 3 picks of Improved Spell Capacity at levels 24, 26, and 27 for those 12th level spells like that Maximised Energy Drain.

But we've been over this extensively in earlier threads and the decision was made long ago.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Disjunction also looks different when cast. Granted the art for spells isn't always entirely consistent, but when V casts disjunction just a few pages earlier it has a very distinctive look (white ray with pink circles around it) whereas Xykon's dispelling looks like his standard black spell aura.

[danielxcutter]

They could have all made their saves.

Honestly that spell'd be way better if it didn't blow up all the loot. Considering the save DC it's pretty unlikely.

Quite. I did the maths way back and if you assume no items and the Superb Dispelling in the ELH, Xykon is at least level 27 plus or minus his Int bonus, with a floor of level 23. He only needs two Epic feats: Epic Spellcasting (which we already know he has) and Epic Skill Focus: Spellcraft.

Spoiler: Maths

Show

The DC for Superb Dispelling is 59. If Xykon Takes 10 he needs +49.
26 Ranks of Spellcraft at level 23 gives +26
25 Ranks of Knowledge: Arcana gives +4 Synergy Bonus (+30 so far)
Skill Focus gives +3 (+33 so far)
Epic Skill Focus gives +10 (+43 so far)

So we need to find +6 from somewhere. That can come from levels or Int bonus or both. The top of the thread guesstimates his Int at 15 which gives +2 which leaves +4 to find from levels, which means level 27+.

And being level 27 means he can fit in 3 picks of Improved Spell Capacity at levels 24, 26, and 27 for those 12th level spells like that Maximised Energy Drain.

But we've been over this extensively in earlier threads and the decision was made long ago.

I personally would guess that Rich is just eyeballing these, but if I had to make this consistent I'd bet on the crown. Actually wait no, he takes it off to take Cloister. Hmm.

Disjunction also looks different when cast. Granted the art for spells isn't always entirely consistent, but when V casts disjunction just a few pages earlier it has a very distinctive look (white ray with pink circles around it) whereas Xykon's dispelling looks like his standard black spell aura.

Yeah, don't really think it'd change in only a few strips.