Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

[Jasdoif]

All can be already, if the DC is 5 or under.

DC 10, actually; but yes.

Given how few skill points a fighter has available and the double hit for cross-class, I'm not really comfortable saying Roy has gotten more than a rank of Know:Planes.

I kind of wonder if he'd take Jack of All Trades at some point, if only to obviate whether he was making trained skill checks or not.

[MultitudeMan]

So, two thoughts regarding new strip:

V thinks that Xykon's spells would leave a lingering aura for several days. Does this tell us anything about Xykon's 10th level spell slots?

Shall we concede that Belkar has put at least 1 rank into Survival by now, and probably more? I know humans are a favoured enemy, but it's still pretty good tracking demonstrated here. He's leveled at least four times since here, and I think at least once since he had his revelation on being a team player.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Shall we concede that Belkar has put at least 1 rank into Survival by now, and probably more? I know humans are a favoured enemy, but it's still pretty good tracking demonstrated here. He's leveled at least four times since here, and I think at least once since he had his revelation on being a team player.

It's likely for storywise reasons, but I wouldn't count this scene as hard proof:

He may or may not still have 0 ranks in survival and a negative wisdom modifier, but at level 15 his favored enemy bonus became +8, one of his favored enemies is humans, and the paladins are humans. The standard DC for tracking on hard ground, including bare rock, is 20, maybe with a few +1's for time passed, but that would still give a success with a 15 or so rolled. Hard, but not exceptionally so.

Favored enemy may or may not explain how he found (elven) wizard or halfling tracks, but those are also a lot easier to find because they're super recent and Belkar knows what to look for because those are their own tracks. I don't think you even need to roll to find your own footprints, they're right behind you.

EDIT: O wait, he has a level of Barbarian, and only 14 in Ranger. So unless he leveled again (which would also open up the possibility of his wisdom getting raised as 16 is a stat improvement level) his favored enemy bonus is only +6. Still not solid proof, but making it more likely.

[Reboot]

EDIT: O wait, he has a level of Barbarian, and only 14 in Ranger. So unless he leveled again (which would also open up the possibility of his wisdom getting raised as 16 is a stat improvement level) his favored enemy bonus is only +6. Still not solid proof, but making it more likely.

We don't even know he's 14 in Ranger. Obviously, it's his main class, but he could have multiple Barbarian levels, not just one. ("Ranger with a sprinkle of Barbarian" implies FEW Barb levels, but doesn't limit to "only one".)

[Lvl 2 Expert]

We don't even know he's 14 in Ranger. Obviously, it's his main class, but he could have multiple Barbarian levels, not just one. ("Ranger with a sprinkle of Barbarian" implies FEW Barb levels, but doesn't limit to "only one".)

Okay. I just went by the first page of this thread. I assumed there was good reasoning for that number.

[Reboot]

Favored enemy may or may not explain how he found (elven) wizard or halfling tracks, but those are also a lot easier to find because they're super recent and Belkar knows what to look for because those are their own tracks. I don't think you even need to roll to find your own footprints, they're right behind you.

He also expects to recognise goblin boot scuffs (presumably referring to boots like Redclock's Art Upgrade three-toes things), and he isn't listed as having Favoured Enemy: Goblin(oid).

Okay. I just went by the first page of this thread. I assumed there was good reasoning for that number.

Well, the two cites on that line refer to:

• A forum post by the Giant c. strip 251 stating Belkar was at the time L12, broken down as Ranger 11/Barbarian 1 and that Belkar's #132-133 Barbarian level was then his most recent level-up ("Even that last d12 HD can't make up for 11 levels of d8+Con.")
• Strip #860, which is about Belkar's total level (it basically means that Belkar's total level as of #860 was the same as Durkon's caster level at the time) and has nothing to do with the Ranger/Barbarian breakdown.

On his possibly-abortive level-up in #515 (he gets a DC 14 Fort save 24 hours later to avoid actually losing the level), he briefly debates what to take it as before the Wight interrupts. His talk with imaginary-Shojo says he didn't take any "overpowered prestige class" before #610, but nothing about how his post-L12 levels break down.

Essentially, it either should be "Ranger 11+ / Barbarian 1+ (forum), total level 15+ (deafened by Holy Word)" - which is how Nale's entry is formatted - or there should be better citations.

[There's a separate question about how L15 is arrived at there. If it's only because of Durkula's Symbol of Death... it's entirely possible Durkon levelled up *BECAUSE* of the Holy Word fight, would have been L14 when he cast it, and isn't listed as having a caster-level-boosting item.]

[Reboot]

Further to the above, re: Belkar's statblock:

...3 small magical daggers (+4 and +2, forum),... +5 Dagger of Collision

"3 small magical daggers"? Where's the evidence for him having a third dagger in #611? Unless it's a typo, I only see three daggers total, and no evidence Belkar looted the third (the black halfling Guild member's red-grip dagger).

[I left in the link to his ex-Tarquin +5 DOC just to be clear that that isn't the third.]

[Yanisa]

Further to the above, re: Belkar's statblock:


"3 small magical daggers"? Where's the evidence for him having a third dagger in #611? Unless it's a typo, I only see three daggers total, and no evidence Belkar looted the third (the black halfling Guild member's red-grip dagger).

[I left in the link to his ex-Tarquin +5 DOC just to be clear that that isn't the third.]

Last Page, 9th panel. Belkar throws two daggers, but there is another one visible on his body. (And the bard is never shown with a dagger.)

Which might have been an art mistake because in neither panel before or after Belkar has three daggers, but in that one panel he has. Could also be a hidden dagger for when he tosses his main two daggers and still wants to threaten for attacks of opportunities.

[Yendor]

Last Page, 9th panel. Belkar throws two daggers, but there is another one visible on his body. (And the bard is never shown with a dagger.)

Which might have been an art mistake because in neither panel before or after Belkar has three daggers, but in that one panel he has. Could also be a hidden dagger for when he tosses his main two daggers and still wants to threaten for attacks of opportunities.

It's an art mistake. It's been corrected in the PDF version, but it's still there in the print version.

[Yanisa]

It's an art mistake. It's been corrected in the PDF version, but it's still there in the print version.

Cool, you just solved an 11+ year old mystery. If you check all the way back (first post on a page earlier) you can see the first discussion and that art mistake is indeed the reason three daggers are listed. Even though back then people already had the same doubts.

@Kurald Galain, can you adjust the dagger count?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Unless he lost his original daggers at some point I'm forgetting, shouldn't he still have the two he started with and the one looted from Tarquin, making it indeed three?

[Peelee]

Unless he lost his original daggers at some point I'm forgetting, shouldn't he still have the two he started with and the one looted from Tarquin, making it indeed three?

Sounds right. The link to three should be changed, I'd think.

[Reboot]

Unless he lost his original daggers at some point I'm forgetting, shouldn't he still have the two he started with and the one looted from Tarquin, making it indeed three?

That's listed separately. (Hence quoting the way I did.)

[MultitudeMan]

I agree that #611 may not count as evidence for Belkar having more than two daggers before he gets Tarquin's one, but what about this fight? Belkar throws two daggers here, in panels 3 and 6, and there's no sign he has a chance to retrieve them, but then he throws another here, with yet another in his hand? I could well believe the one thrown in #279 was one of his magical ones, as it seems a bit more urgent and less planned than the first two, but surely this leaves us with his +5 Dagger of Collision, plus two magical daggers, plus at least 2 others?

[Reboot]

I agree that #611 may not count as evidence for Belkar having more than two daggers before he gets Tarquin's one, but what about this fight? Belkar throws two daggers here, in panels 3 and 6, and there's no sign he has a chance to retrieve them, but then he throws another here, with yet another in his hand? I could well believe the one thrown in #279 was one of his magical ones, as it seems a bit more urgent and less planned than the first two, but surely this leaves us with his +5 Dagger of Collision, plus two magical daggers, plus at least 2 others?

There's a significant time jump between the strips, during which we go from Belkar sniping in a storeroom to a running chase on the rooftop. Unless Miko kept the daggers (and maybe even then, depending), plenty of time for Belkar to retrieve them.

The better question is how he gets his dagger(s) back after #279, since someone would have to fetch on his behalf (since he leaves one behind and the other disappears from his hand before falling off the roof).

He still has two in #281, when he throws another at Miko to wake her up and doesn't seem to retrieve it, and then isn't shown with a dagger in hand until after he's been arrested and released on community service. Is it possible he never actually got the ones lost there back (who had both motive & opportunity to find them and give them back to him, after all)?

[MultitudeMan]

There's a significant time jump between the strips, during which we go from Belkar sniping in a storeroom to a running chase on the rooftop. Unless Miko kept the daggers (and maybe even then, depending), plenty of time for Belkar to retrieve them.

The better question is how he gets his dagger(s) back after #279, since someone would have to fetch on his behalf (since he leaves one behind and the other disappears from his hand before falling off the roof).

He still has two in #281, when he throws another at Miko to wake her up and doesn't seem to retrieve it, and then isn't shown with a dagger in hand until after he's been arrested and released on community service. Is it possible he never actually got the ones lost there back (who had both motive & opportunity to find them and give them back to him, after all)?

The evidence for his +4 and +2 daggers comes here, post #668, referencing this strip. Can we comfortably assume that Belkar maintains a decent supply (4+) of non-magical daggers for throwing, in addition to the magical ones (which he usually reserves for melee)? I reckon we saw him use 4 daggers disposably in this fight with Miko alone. I know it would be more foresight than we've normally attributed to Belkar at this stage of his character development, but non-magical daggers are so cheap and light that I can't see why he wouldn't keep half a dozen or so on him at all times, for opportunistic ranged murders.

[Yanisa]

The evidence for his +4 and +2 daggers comes here, post #668, referencing this strip. Can we comfortably assume that Belkar maintains a decent supply (4+) of non-magical daggers for throwing, in addition to the magical ones (which he usually reserves for melee)? I reckon we saw him use 4 daggers disposably in this fight with Miko alone. I know it would be more foresight than we've normally attributed to Belkar at this stage of his character development, but non-magical daggers are so cheap and light that I can't see why he wouldn't keep half a dozen or so on him at all times, for opportunistic ranged murders.

It makes sense for Belkar, but at the same time we do see him retrieve his daggers in #611. Which implies his throwing daggers are worth the effort of picking up. Also in this comic (panel 9) Belkar mentions he needs his daggers and doesn't use any daggers against the half-giant(?). He does only drop two, even though he has confirmed three daggers at this point.
Maybe he didn't take all his daggers with him for stealth reasons, but personally I go with Belkar's is fast and nimble in combat (again #1026 is a nice example), so retrieving his dagger is part of his strategy. We just don't see it on panel because it's a boring combat round.

Anyway. No proof he has more then two daggers before #0966 and no proof he uses more then two daggers after #0966.

Also random dagger fact, it is confirmed in #572 that Belkar uses at least one magical dagger. Doesn't really help with the question, but there is a in comic line that one (or both) of his daggers is magical around the Azur City periode.

Man I am learning a lot about Belkar's daggers.

[Peelee]

Also random dagger fact, it is confirmed in #572 that Belkar uses at least one magical dagger. Doesn't really help with the question, but there is a in comic line that one (or both) of his daggers is magical around the Azure City period.

You may be interested to learn there was a debate over whether that line meant "repository for magic dagger" or "magic repository for dagger."

[Yanisa]

You may be interested to learn there was a debate over whether that line meant "repository for magic dagger" or "magic repository for dagger."

Which, just like the amount of daggers, are the important discussion to have to truly understand our characters.

I do wonder if a magic repository for daggers works like arrows with a magic quiver, and Belkar's daggers only became magical after the oracle stabbing.

[Kornaki]

Yanisa, in 611 it is pretty clear the daggers he throws are the same as the ones he was meleeing with.

[Yanisa]

Yanisa, in 611 it is pretty clear the daggers he throws are the same as the ones he was meleeing with.

True, the better argument would have been: We see on panel that Belkar uses the same pair for melee and throwing. Instead of having a separate pair of throwing daggers. Which seems to be confirmed in #1026 because he drops two daggers and is weaponless. (And again by that time he was confirmed to own three different daggers, yet is unarmed after dropping two.)

Besides Belkar doesn't seem to throw his in daggers in all his fight, or even in most of them. Anyone else have another fight with Belkar throwing his daggers?

[MultitudeMan]

True, the better argument would have been: We see on panel that Belkar uses the same pair for melee and throwing. Instead of having a separate pair of throwing daggers. Which seems to be confirmed in #1026 because he drops two daggers and is weaponless. (And again by that time he was confirmed to own three different daggers, yet is unarmed after dropping two.)

Besides Belkar doesn't seem to throw his in daggers in all his fight, or even in most of them. Anyone else have another fight with Belkar throwing his daggers?

OK, so my new headcanon is then as follows.

Belkar used to keep a selection of non-magical disposable "throwing" daggers (to fit with these scenes), in addition to his "melee" daggers (which were both confirmed to be magical), but at some stage, he decided that the quality of his enemies had risen sufficiently high that non-magical daggers were no longer worth using, and so stopped carrying them. After getting a magic weapon upgrade, he sold his weaker magical dagger to help fund one of his purchases in Tinkertown, which explains why he was weaponless here. This could be considered to be an unwise decision, but he really needed those items!

[understatement]

Since it's mentioned the Scribble were all "low-epic," is Kraagor then 21+?

[Emanick]

Since it's mentioned the Scribble were all "low-epic," is Kraagor then 21+?

No, he's dead.

[understatement]

No, he's dead.

So are all the others.

I'm not too familiar with this thread, though, so apologies if that's a certain rule about dead characters somewhere.

[Yanisa]

So are all the others.

I'm not too familiar with this thread, though, so apologies if that's a certain rule about dead characters somewhere.

I don't think it's a rule against dead character so much as it is his moment of dead. Unlike the other members he died before the last rift was sealed, and way before all the other members set up defences. It's harder to pinpoint exact information, the giant called the scribble "low-epic" but in the context of said defences.

Also we don't have proof all members are dead yet.

[Aquillion]

Plus it seems reasonable to assume that their big quest took them from levels 1-20 and that the others, sans Kraagor, only became level 21+ afterwards.

I mean we don't know for sure, but it fits that quote and makes intuitive sense.

[danielxcutter]

I’m pretty sure that all of them, aside from Serini, are absolutely confirmed to be dead.

[Quebbster]

I’m pretty sure that all of them, aside from Serini, are absolutely confirmed to be dead.

The reports of Kraagor's death might be exaggerations. The other four (besides Serini) have first-hand confirmation of their deaths. But they could get better I suppose...

[danielxcutter]

The reports of Kraagor's death might be exaggerations. The other four (besides Serini) have first-hand confirmation of their deaths. But they could get better I suppose...

Technically Kraagor is even more gone than “dead”. Also, Soon and Girard both likely died from old age and the casters are Soul Bound by Xykon, so yeah. Not THAT likely.