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  1. - Top - End - #631
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Should she have Knowledge: Nature (knows dogs can't eat chocolate) and Knowledge: Local (No Ranks) (doesn't know humans can't shoot lightning), panel 11 for both.
    I'd actually be in favor of her getting some ranks in Knowledge (nature) for this. The DC for knowing that is probably higher than 10, and it's entirely in keeping with her character for Celia to have put some skill ranks in that.

    I disagree about the Knowledge (local) listing, though. Celia might have just rolled terribly on her Knowledge (local) check. If you assume it's a DC 5 check to know that humans have no ability to shoot lightning out of their fingertips if you weren't raised on the Material Plane, and that Celia's Intelligence is 15, she could have 1-2 ranks in Knowledge (local) and still fail the check if she rolled a natural 1.

    Quote Originally Posted by MultitudeMan View Post
    I just noticed that Xykon has Shapechange added to his spell list. If this is so, that makes four 9th level spells (after Energy Drain, Meteor Swarm, and Soul Bind), and the normal maximum for Sorcerers is three 9th level spells, so can we list him as having taken Spell Knowledge, and does that have implications for his minimum level? Does this confirm Xykon as 24+? Or is there another way for him to have an extra 9th level spell?
    Yeah, where did that come from? The source for him having Shapechange is "CAL20," which I'm guessing means "caster level 20," and I'm unaware of what the connection is between being a 20th level sorcerer and having the Shapechange spell.

    Strip 670 also implies that Xykon does not know Shapechange - there are some levels that contain "unknown" spells for Xykon, but 9th is not one of them.
    Last edited by Emanick; 2020-07-31 at 03:30 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #632
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Yeah, where did that come from? The source for him having Shapechange is "CAL20," which I'm guessing means "caster level 20," and I'm unaware of what the connection is between being a 20th level sorcerer and having the Shapechange spell.

    Strip 670 also implies that Xykon does not know Shapechange - there are some levels that contain "unknown" spells for Xykon, but 9th is not one of them.
    Given how it's used elsewhere, I think "CAL20" refers to the 2020 calendar.
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  3. - Top - End - #633
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    Given how it's used elsewhere, I think "CAL20" refers to the 2020 calendar.
    Oh. Then I suggest we remove it. I don't think the calendar scenes are canon. I certainly think it's absurd to peg Julia as level 11+ when she's still in school. When Roy graduated he was level 3 or lower, and he'd just finished a master's program; Julia, on the other hand, is only seventeen.

    If nothing else, it would be rather odd to assume that she'd be working on a lower-level version of a 4th level spell for her senior project if she's slinging around 6th level spells.
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  4. - Top - End - #634
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Oh. Then I suggest we remove it. I don't think the calendar scenes are canon. I certainly think it's absurd to peg Julia as level 11+ when she's still in school. When Roy graduated he was level 3 or lower, and he'd just finished a master's program; Julia, on the other hand, is only seventeen.

    If nothing else, it would be rather odd to assume that she'd be working on a lower-level version of a 4th level spell for her senior project if she's slinging around 6th level spells.
    Agreed, even though Xykon having Shapechange would surely, finally force his level to be bumped up on this thread.

  5. - Top - End - #635
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Didn't he also use shapechange in SoD though?

  6. - Top - End - #636
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Didn't he also use shapechange in SoD though?
    I think that was Lirian?

    Although out of curiosity, what creature did Xykon shapechange into in the calendar?

  7. - Top - End - #637
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Didn't he also use shapechange in SoD though?
    I don't believe so.
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    You are probably thinking of when Lirian used it against him (to no great effect) - after he became a Lich.

  8. - Top - End - #638
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Just going to bring up my question from before - what's the justification for Roy's ranks in spellcraft? The example page linked doesn't offer any reasonable interpretation for them. I'm totally on board with Roy probably having Spellcraft ranks (though enough to get a modifier of "9+" seems unlikely), but 867 doesn't provide any justification for it.

    I'm also a little confused by whether the listings for skills describe skill ranks, or an assumed skill modifier (including ability score bonuses and synergies, etc); if it's meant to be the former, then nine ranks of Spellcraft would also require Roy to be at least level 15, since it's a cross-class skill for Fighters.

  9. - Top - End - #639
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurgeh View Post
    Just going to bring up my question from before - what's the justification for Roy's ranks in spellcraft? The example page linked doesn't offer any reasonable interpretation for them. I'm totally on board with Roy probably having Spellcraft ranks (though enough to get a modifier of "9+" seems unlikely), but 867 doesn't provide any justification for it.

    I'm also a little confused by whether the listings for skills describe skill ranks, or an assumed skill modifier (including ability score bonuses and synergies, etc); if it's meant to be the former, then nine ranks of Spellcraft would also require Roy to be at least level 15, since it's a cross-class skill for Fighters.
    My best guess is that is for Haley - IIRC she needs a minimum of 9 and a nat 20 to detect a run was Meteor Swarm, and it's in her statblock, linking to the same strip. So Roy's listing of spellcraft is most likely a clerical error.
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  10. - Top - End - #640
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    So Roy's listing of spellcraft is most likely a clerical error.
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  11. - Top - End - #641
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    You're really going to put this on Durkon?
    You wanna fight about it, Fighting Man?
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  12. - Top - End - #642
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    I'd assumed Roy had some ranks in Spellcraft just from when he interviewed V in SoD.

  13. - Top - End - #643
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    I'd assumed Roy had some ranks in Spellcraft just from when he interviewed V in SoD.
    I doubt that. All Roy knew about wizards is that they can shoot mighty fireballs. That's the stereotype we get from the Monty Python movie, and I think Roy watches Monty Python. His father kept telling him that as a fighter, there's no way for him to hurt Xykon, and that he needs a wizard for that. So Roy hired the first wizard who was willing to join based on these. Did he even ask any interview questions about what kind of magic Vaarsuvius is competent in? Well, he tried, but Vaarsuvius wasn't willing to go into specifics. Roy just got quite lucky that Vaarsuvius turned out to be a powerful enough wizard indeed, and one who does shoot fireballs at his foes.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2020-08-01 at 07:17 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #644
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Plus, having basic knowledge of their world doesn't necessarily require a skill. Roy has decent intelligence and had a wizard for a father, so it would be weird if he didn't know at least a little bit about magic despite his lack of interest.

  15. - Top - End - #645
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    I'd assumed Roy had some ranks in Spellcraft just from when he interviewed V in SoD.
    We used to derive Roy's ranks in Spellcraft from panel 3 of this strip, though I don't think we had specified a number of ranks.
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  16. - Top - End - #646
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    Haley Starshine
    Skills: Spellcraft 9+
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    If we are giving Haley Spellcraft 9+ for recognising Meteor Swarm should we have Celia at Spellcraft 10+ for recognising Cloister.
    Based on:
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Spellcraft: Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.
    Epic Spells: However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells.

  17. - Top - End - #647
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    If we are giving Haley Spellcraft 9+ for recognising Meteor Swarm should we have Celia at Spellcraft 10+ for recognising Cloister.
    Based on:
    Did she identify it or was she told about it? Especially since it was invented by Dorukan, I'd wager the latter.
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  18. - Top - End - #648
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Did she identify it or was she told about it? Especially since it was invented by Dorukan, I'd wager the latter.
    She identified it based on her teeth tingling - which would seem to be the same at humans identifing a spell pased on seeing/feeling it etc.

    Which fully matches: Spellcraft: Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.

  19. - Top - End - #649
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    She identified it based on her teeth tingling - which would seem to be the same at humans identifing a spell pased on seeing/feeling it etc.

    Which fully matches: Spellcraft: Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.
    Since her teeth's ability to detect the presence of abjuration magic is specifically called out as a racial ability, I don't think we can attribute it to ranks in Spellcraft.
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  20. - Top - End - #650
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    She identified it based on her teeth tingling - which would seem to be the same at humans identifing a spell pased on seeing/feeling it etc.

    Which fully matches: Spellcraft: Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.
    She identified it was gone and back by her teeth tingling. We don't know how she identified the spell itself to begin with. It's like if a caster said they had the Light spell, and a human noticed it was gone when it became dark and back when it became light again. Which I would not require Spellcraft to detect.
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  21. - Top - End - #651
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by MultitudeMan View Post
    I just noticed that Xykon has Shapechange added to his spell list.
    Do we have any evidence that he cast it himself? Or could it have been from a ring or other item?

  22. - Top - End - #652
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Oh. Then I suggest we remove it. I don't think the calendar scenes are canon. I certainly think it's absurd to peg Julia as level 11+ when she's still in school. When Roy graduated he was level 3 or lower, and he'd just finished a master's program; Julia, on the other hand, is only seventeen.

    If nothing else, it would be rather odd to assume that she'd be working on a lower-level version of a 4th level spell for her senior project if she's slinging around 6th level spells.
    I second that, and while I haven't seen the 2020 calender pictures, I wouldn't view it as canon unless the Giant specifically said they are.

    Do we even know when those pictures are set, in relation to the main comic? Julia's picture may be set in the future, serving only as an indication of what spells she would have when she eventually reaches level 11.

  23. - Top - End - #653
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    She identified it was gone and back by her teeth tingling. We don't know how she identified the spell itself to begin with. It's like if a caster said they had the Light spell, and a human noticed it was gone when it became dark and back when it became light again. Which I would not require Spellcraft to detect.
    But knowing if you are in the radius of a light spell or a daylight spell would be spellcraft - or within the comic characters can see the cloud/mist/fog but it would be Spellcraft to know what it actually was.

    Celia knows her teeth tingle and knows that means that an abjuration is present (panel 22) - correctly identifying the abjuration would seem to be spellcraft.

    To use your light example using your eyes to see it and know it is evocation might not be spellcraft (although a case could be made for it as you know the light is not being conjured for instance), knowing that it is the spell 'Epic Light' rather then 'Light' or 'Daylight' would seem to be spellcraft.

  24. - Top - End - #654
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    But knowing if you are in the radius of a light spell or a daylight spell would be spellcraft - or within the comic characters can see the cloud/mist/fog but it would be Spellcraft to know what it actually was.
    They do because there are so many spells that cause that effect (or something close to it). Similarly, knowing you are in the radius of a light or daylight spell would be simple, considering you can see that you and surrounding areas are illuminated.

    How many spells that she has experienced cause her teeth to tingle? From what we can tell so far, one.

    This is a very subjective argument, but at my table I would absolutely not lump basic deduction into a Spellcraft skill. If you know your party wizard has the Continual Flame spell and said wizard hands you a lit torch that gives off no heat, I'm not going to insist on a Spellcraft check to make you realize that it's got the Continual Flame cast on it.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-08-02 at 12:05 PM.
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  25. - Top - End - #655
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    How many spells that she has experienced cause her teeth to tingle? From what we can tell so far, one.
    You couldn't sense the presence of an abjuration by the way way your teeth tingle?

    That makes it sounds like all abjurations cause teeth tingling.
    As such 'many spells that cause that effect (or something close to it)' likely applies.

  26. - Top - End - #656
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    This is a very subjective argument, but at my table I would absolutely not lump basic deduction into a Spellcraft skill. If you know your party wizard has the Continual Flame spell and said wizard hands you a lit torch that gives off no heat, I'm not going to insist on a Spellcraft check to make you realize that it's got the Continual Flame cast on it.
    In general, the argument that because a certain skill can be used to learn a piece of information we can deduce that anyone who knows that information has ranks in that skill is invalid, because it's assuming that a statement is true because it is the converse of a true statement, but the truth value of the converse of a statement is independent of the truth value of the statement. That is, the rules allow you to gain a certain piece of information by making a skill check, but they don't rule out gaining it in other ways, so a character having the piece of information is not sufficient evidence to prove that character can make the skill check.
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  27. - Top - End - #657
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    I've removed the various spells from the 2020 calendar. I've also just noticed that we lost a lot of smilies in the first posts, basically anything from Photobucket. Does anyone have backups?
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  28. - Top - End - #658
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    I've removed the various spells from the 2020 calendar. I've also just noticed that we lost a lot of smilies in the first posts, basically anything from Photobucket. Does anyone have backups?
    You can use the wayback machine to get some of them.
    Mr Scruffy:
    Blackwing:
    Redcloak: (he actually has his own icon on this site - so not the wayback machine for this one)
    Zzdtri:
    Malack:
    Gontor:

    As you can see some of them appear blank but if you quote this post you should see links to them that work.

    For the others they don't seem to be available (at my quick review).

    Edit: more of them appear then when I just preview it.
    Last edited by dancrilis; 2020-08-03 at 05:37 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #659
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    I've removed the various spells from the 2020 calendar. I've also just noticed that we lost a lot of smilies in the first posts, basically anything from Photobucket. Does anyone have backups?
    Veldrina's thread is already working hard on that. Just copy the new smilies from their first page as they update.

  30. - Top - End - #660
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

    If it helps, I've been able to retrieve these images for the Number of Character Appearances thread (with enormous help from some of the other participants there):

    Mr. Scruffy:

    Blackwing:

    Pompey:

    Yikyik:

    Yukyuk:

    Zz’dtri:

    Soul-Muncher:

    Kilkil:

    Malack:

    Eugene:

    Exarch:

    Durkon*:

    Ian Starshine:

    Edit: It just occurred to me that it's probably possible to retrieve a copy of the Redcloak-with-eyepatch image via the Wayback Machine, but for some reason said Machine is not working for me at the moment. If anyone else wants to try to retrieve it that way, well, that sounds like it might be a good idea.
    Last edited by Emanick; 2020-08-04 at 12:07 AM.
    Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends

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