Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

[Quartz]

I'd like to nitpick part of Vaarsuvius' main entry. The link for her Headband of Intellect +4 goes to strip 627 but she casts four 6th level spells in strips 625-626. In strip 627 she casts 7th level spells so is at least level 13, not 11. However, there is no need for a Headband of Intellect at all in strip 625-627 as she can cast four 6th level spells merely by dint of being level 14 (three base, one for specialism). V being level 14 is actually noted in the level chart in the first post! If she had the Headband at that point she would have been able to cast five 6th level spells.

Note that V could have increased her Int to 19 at level 12, though that doesn't affect calculations, and again at level 16 for a total of Int 20 (which does). This ties in with her having 24 Int in the fight with Laurin as calculated by Zimmerwald1915 here. However, V might have spent her points on other stats and the Headband could be +6.

We are also assuming V doesn't have an invisible magic item that grants her an extra 7th level spell.

So, when did V get the Headband? When did she demonstrate that she had it? Because 625-627 don't demonstrate its presence, yet she had it for the fight against Laurin. If there's no clear source, should we grant that she crafted it herself? In which case we should add the feat Craft Wondrous Item and the spell Fox's Cunning to her entry. She can create the +4 version in 16 days and the +6 version in 36 days. Is there time for her to have crafted the Headband?

PS strip 625 demonstrates that V isn't a virgin. :)

[Peelee]

Hey so this thread is nearing the end of its life and we haven't done much name for the next one thinking, so I'll throw a name out (and one of the failed ones for this thread):

All Grown Up

Everyone's an Expert

Everyone's an Expert.

[Ghosty]

Hey so this thread is nearing the end of its life and we haven't done much name for the next one thinking, so I'll throw a name out (and one of the failed ones for this thread):

All Grown Up

Everyone's an Expert

"The [thread] where everything's made up, and the points don't matter?"

Thanks to you all for pointing out the backlash damage from Superb Dispelling. I totally missed the art for it up til now.

[Peelee]

"The [thread] where everything's made up, and the points don't matter?"

Thanks to you all for pointing out the backlash damage from Superb Dispelling. I totally missed the art for it up til now.

I am very, very glad there's no counter or anything that records how many times we messed up, because I promise you, mine would be towering.

[Emanick]

Everyone’s An Expert works on multiple levels. It’s quite clever. It seems like an excellent choice to me.

[TooSoon]

Everyone’s An Expert works on multiple levels. It’s quite clever. It seems like an excellent choice to me.

I'd have gone with "This isn't a democracy". Even more accurate.

[danielxcutter]

I’m not entirely sure what the reference is.

[locksmith of lo]

i am a lurker on this thread, because i do not have enough knowlege of this kind of stuff to contribute intelligently.

that does not mean i cannot contribute a thread name! drawing inspiration from the latest comic, i hereby nominate... "there are obviously also drawbacks" to the vote list. please put my vote for this and "everyone's an expert".

[dancrilis]

Can we also all agree V is level 17+ too now?

No, for two seperate and distinct reasons.

Firstly - on likely spell application (covering Vaarsuvius, Roy, Belkar, Haley, Elan, Durkon, Minrah and Blackwing) they included enough targets to be a have a caster level of 21, how they got there is unknown.
Secondly - on what has been displayed we don't know if Minrah, Mr. Scruffy, Bloodfeast or possibly Belkar are included.

If the first then on the rules it tells us nothing on the level, even if it did the second means that they might have excluded some people.

As such the current strip is not proof of anything.

[Peelee]

i am a lurker on this thread, because i do not have enough knowlege of this kind of stuff to contribute intelligently.

Imean, that's never stopped me before.

[danielxcutter]

I'm pretty sure we're fairly lenient towards relatively inexperienced newcomers. Maybe not each other, but still.

[Schroeswald]

I’ve never played 3.5 and I manage to be active in like, creating statblocks (idk how) and I’m only occasionally called the idiot I am!

[danielxcutter]

I’ve never played 3.5 and I manage to be active in like, creating statblocks (idk how) and I’m only occasionally called the idiot I am!

I've been in a few games(that fell flat before they really got off the ground) and played in one that actually went pretty well until the DM suddenly had RL issues and had to drop it. What I do know, I mostly learned from the 3.5e forum, the SRD, and PDFs. And I still occasionally miss things like research not getting around the limit to how many powers a Psion can learn.

Still managed to come up with a lot of statblocks and some ideas for an OotS-style comic of my own, though I haven't worked on that for a while I realize.

[RMS Oceanic]

Firstly - on likely spell application (covering Vaarsuvius, Roy, Belkar, Haley, Elan, Durkon, Minrah and Blackwing) they included enough targets to be a have a caster level of 21, how they got there is unknown.

[Vaarsuvius + Blackwing], Roy, Elan, Haley, Durkon, Belkar, Minrah. Six targets, CL 18. For the range of Share Spells issue, I'd argue Telepathic Bond's "this has no (intraplanar) range" condition would clash with it, and thus the ruling is it overrules that limitation. Either that or this is another time that V has case Overland Flight on someone else.

Secondly - on what has been displayed we don't know if Minrah, Mr. Scruffy, Bloodfeast or possibly Belkar are included.

Belkar is quite obviously included, he's surrounded in the pink magic as Vaarsuvius casts it, and it also clearly arcs away from him at another target, look at how it stops at Blackwing's head for a counter example, so someone else standing outside was affected. Mr Scruffy and Bloodfeast aren't normally relied upon for verbal speech, so it's unlikely they were included, but Minrah would be, and since the rest of the order were established to be to the right of Vaarsuvius, there's only one other person it could be arcing to include.

[dancrilis]

[Vaarsuvius + Blackwing], Roy, Elan, Haley, Durkon, Belkar, Minrah. Six targets, CL 18. For the range of Share Spells issue, I'd argue Telepathic Bond's "this has no (intraplanar) range" condition would clash with it, and thus the ruling is it overrules that limitation. Either that or this is another time that V has case Overland Flight on someone else.

Share Spells has rules for how a familiar can be affected by spells the wizard casts on themselves, namely the spell stops affecting the familiar if they move more then 5feet away from the caster.

The specific rules of Telepathic Bond do nothing to change the familiar rules - so rules as written Blackwing was an additional target.

Belkar is quite obviously included, he's surrounded in the pink magic as Vaarsuvius casts it, and it also clearly arcs away from him at another target, look at how it stops at Blackwing's head for a counter example, so someone else standing outside was affected. Mr Scruffy and Bloodfeast aren't normally relied upon for verbal speech, so it's unlikely they were included, but Minrah would be, and since the rest of the order were established to be to the right of Vaarsuvius, there's only one other person it could be arcing to include.

This is why I wrote 'possibly Belkar' people have tried to argue that he was not affected so I was allowing for them.
There is nothing in 1220 to indicate that Minrah was included in the spell targets so 1220 is not evidence that she was included in the spell targets.

[b_jonas]

There is nothing in 1220 to indicate that Minrah was included in the spell targets so 1220 is not evidence that she was included in the spell targets.

There is some indication. In the 3rd panel, the purple dweomer that covers Durkon, Vaarsuvius, Blackwing, Roy, and Belkar also extends to the left of the panel from Belkar. It seems that that's the wrong direction for Elan and Haley, because Elan is to the right of Durkon, and Haley is further to the right of Elan. That leaves Minrah. But the characters may have moved between the panels (they have moved since #1219 too), so that could be wrong.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I remain a fan of Everyone's An Expert.

[Ephemera]

I’m not entirely sure what the reference is.

Do you mean the reference for "Everyone's an Expert?" If so, it's not a specific reference to any work of fiction, but it's a figure of speech that is occasionally used in real life, generally to mock the idea that everyone thinks they know what they are talking about even when they don't.

The additional thing it references (and why it's funny here) is that there is an NPC class called Expert, and at various times people have not-too-seriously proposed outlandish builds for characters involving them having nothing but levels in Expert combined with cheese feat/skill/item combos that would let them do their observed feats (instead of the much more straightforward obvious answers). The title makes fun of both the fact that we all think we know what we're talking about, and also that we sometimes, for various reasons, come up with really convoluted explanations for things in order to try to fit together different pieces of "evidence."

There, now I have explained it to death, so it's no longer funny. Given that it was my idea at least one if not two threads ago, I am still in favor, and I am greatly pleased to see it proposed but such distinguished members of the thread.

[Wildstag]

Firstly - on likely spell application (covering Vaarsuvius, Roy, Belkar, Haley, Elan, Durkon, Minrah and Blackwing) they included enough targets to be a have a caster level of 21, how they got there is unknown.

Well seeing as there hasn't been meaningful downtime or shopping time between the 34 hour Forcecage and the present comic, and by virtue of the fact that V had two Mind Blank spells when Forcecage's duration was announced, the simplest answer must also be the correct answer: when it makes sense from a narrative perspective for all of the party to be under the effect of a spell, than the limiting factor of the spell is removed or ignored.

I can't find if there's a listed amount of time necessary to retrain feats, but V would only be able to retrain one feat (assuming there was only one level increase between the vampire fight and present), so any feat source that could improve CL would need to do so by 3 or more if we are to assume that V is 21+. I'm not aware of any that do so much for so small a resource cost.

Also, why can't we just change the level to 17+ anyway, since by the nature of the "+", it still covers the possibility of 21. It allows everyone to be content for the time being until we can nail down whether or not it needs further increasing to 21+.

P.S. It's only been two days between the death of the HPoH and the arrival at the North Pole. So item crafting is almost certainly out of the picture, and item purchasing seems insanely unlikely as well. All that leaves is feat retraining or a PrC level that increases CL significantly. But none of the people arguing 21+ have really provided examples that would actually do that, from what I can tell.

[Yanisa]

But none of the people arguing 21+ have really provided examples that would actually do that, from what I can tell.

I don't think anyone actually is arguing 21+, it's just that when we apply the rules as written/RAW, that's the number we should get. A highly illogical number that doesn't fit with all the evidence leading up to it, but it's the RAW number.

The other option is accepting some rule is being ignored, but then we don't know what rule is being ignored. There have been times the amount of targets a spell affected don't fit with the portrayed power of the casters. Especially in the case of teleport. If the rule for targets is being ignored, then the amount of targets cannot tell us any new information and V is still 16+. Or maybe it is the obscure 5 feet range for a share spell with a familiar, but we don't know, nor can we prove it with other facts.

It's the same with the whole Oona as ranger discussion, there is room for doubt, so in the end we can't use Minrah's word.

[TooSoon]

I don't think anyone actually is arguing 21+, it's just that when we apply the rules as written/RAW, that's the number we should get. A highly illogical number that doesn't fit with all the evidence leading up to it, but it's the RAW number.

The other option is accepting some rule is being ignored, but then we don't know what rule is being ignored. There have been times the amount of targets a spell affected don't fit with the portrayed power of the casters. Especially in the case of teleport. If the rule for targets is being ignored, then the amount of targets cannot tell us any new information and V is still 16+. Or maybe it is the obscure 5 feet range for a share spell with a familiar, but we don't know, nor can we prove it with other facts.

It's the same with the whole Oona as ranger discussion, there is room for doubt, so in the end we can't use Minrah's word.

People already provided an alternate reading of the distance rule that they believed allowed blackwing to get around it. It is possible Rich read the rule that way. It's also irrelevant because we haven't seen Blackwing continue to communicate yet, so for the moment all we need to say is that it's level 17+ (which could include the possibility of level 20, or of other items, etc, to boost caster level). This argument that "caster level isn't always applied correctly" is so weak; no rule is always applied correctly by Rich probably, and the handful of examples are ones that never impacted the stat blocks on this thread (and which some people argue could be worked around in any event). Failing any specific explicit evidence for this instance V should be marked as level 17+. To be frank, his level growth would be a lot less absurd than Minrah's appears to have been.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Given the amount of power a new spell level gives you, especially with 9ths, I think we should only boost V to the point of a new level when they cast a spell of that level. Especially given that The Giant is basically only using the rules now to avoid retroactively changing the previous 1200+ strips.

[TooSoon]

Given the amount of power a new spell level gives you, especially with 9ths, I think we should only boost V to the point of a new level when they cast a spell of that level. Especially given that The Giant is basically only using the rules now to avoid retroactively changing the previous 1200+ strips.

This is another bad argument I've seen people use; "there is a special burden of proof for stuff I think should have one". There is no difference in the burden of proof required by this thread for proving level 17 as opposed to proving level 7. We used the caster level multiplier to determine V was level 16, we should use it now here to determine he is 17+, regardless of a vocal minority who don't like it. The rules need to be applied consistently.

[Schroeswald]

Share Spells
At the master’s option, he may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) he casts on himself also affect his familiar. The familiar must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit.

If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the familiar if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the familiar again even if it returns to the master before the duration expires. Additionally, the master may cast a spell with a target of "You" on his familiar (as a touch range spell) instead of on himself.

I think this is pretty explicit that Blackwing wouldn't be affected by Share Spell after moving away (which he did). And like I've said before, how many people are affected by spells but don't really make sense (Shojo's Wizard, Tsukiko, Durkon and now V), sure, there are excuses for each of them, but together they show that Rich seems to be ignoring this rule.

[TooSoon]

I think this is pretty explicit that Blackwing wouldn't be affected by Share Spell after moving away (which he did). And like I've said before, how many people are affected by spells but don't really make sense (Shojo's Wizard, Tsukiko, Durkon and now V), sure, there are excuses for each of them, but together they show that Rich seems to be ignoring this rule.

We can find instances of Rich ignoring rules for most things. That does not mean we should just stop trying to apply the rules, the premise of this thread is to proceed as though the rules are in effect, unless there is compelling specific evidence for each instance. In some instances the rules might have been handwaved, though none of the examples you provide are decisive as you admit, but in others they clearly weren't. Here there's no reason to assume handwaving, because it's exactly what we should expect to see (V finally levelling up to 17+ after being 16+ for a preposterously long time).

[Rogar Demonblud]

This is another bad argument I've seen people use; "there is a special burden of proof for stuff I think should have one". There is no difference in the burden of proof required by this thread for proving level 17 as opposed to proving level 7. We used the caster level multiplier to determine V was level 16, we should use it now here to determine he is 17+, regardless of a vocal minority who don't like it. The rules need to be applied consistently.

There is a significant difference between letting an already known to be available 8th level spell slot go longer and giving V the ability to say "I wish the lich known as Xykon was destroyed forever" and have it happen.

[b_jonas]

how many people are affected by spells but don't really make sense (Shojo's Wizard, Tsukiko, Durkon and now V), sure, there are excuses for each of them,

There's a difference though. When Durkon cast Wind walk and when Wizard Guy cast Teleport, they weren't in combat or any other urgent situation, so they could have easily cast Wind walk twice and Teleport twice or three times. And if they did, it would probably happen off-screen, because it's not important enough to show. But in #1220, Vaarsuvius would have to cast Telepathic bond three times in a hurry, during the less than a minute that passed since Haley said she'd take less than a minute to temporarily disable the trap. That's still possible, because the spell takes only one standard action to cast, but not as free as in the previous two cases.

Admittedly perhaps Tsukiko also had to hurry when she teleported in his wights. And she not only teleported, but also cast buffs on all the wights. I have no idea how she did that.

outlandish builds for characters involving them having nothing but levels in Expert combined with cheese feat/skill/item combos that would let them do their observed feats (instead of the much more straightforward obvious answers)

Ah yes, the unusually rich Expert who has several high level spells painted on his skin in a way they function as scrolls. The Oracle is rich, prescient, favored by his god, and always has the right magic item in their robe, but we can't expect normal NPCs to replicate that.

[TooSoon]

There is a significant difference between letting an already known to be available 8th level spell slot go longer and giving V the ability to say "I wish the lich known as Xykon was destroyed forever" and have it happen.

There's a difference to you; not a logical difference. I repeat, there are no special rules about how we confirm level 17 as against how we confirm level 7. Just because you don't like it does not make it so.

[Schroeswald]

There's a difference though. When Durkon cast Wind walk and when Wizard Guy cast Teleport, they weren't in combat or any other urgent situation, so they could have easily cast Wind walk twice and Teleport twice or three times. And if they did, it would probably happen off-screen, because it's not important enough to show. But in #1220, Vaarsuvius would have to cast Telepathic bond three times in a hurry, during the less than a minute that passed since Haley said she'd take less than a minute to temporarily disable the trap. That's still possible, because the spell takes only one standard action to cast, but not as free as in the previous two cases.

Admittedly perhaps Tsukiko also had to hurry when she teleported in his wights. And she not only teleported, but also cast buffs on all the wights. I have no idea how she did that.

The wizard couldn’t have done that because he visibly took all six of them at once two different times, one of which was to very much the wrong place and thus definitely couldn’t have easily gone back to Cliffport and then back to the wrong spot.

I’m also not denying that there are possible explanations for these situations that don’t require unreasonably high levels, but that there is a clear pattern that shows Rich has likely been ignoring this rule.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Well yeah, he's a Narrativist GM who really doesn't give a damn about the RAW. Which is why you can't take any of this seriously unless you like aggravation.