Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

[TooSoon]

So, if we're doing this again (and honestly, it's probably healthy for us to revisit this once in a while as we have member turnover), I will again pop in to say the following:

This thread operates by consensus, pretty much. In all such geek debates on the internet, a certain number of people will insist that we have precise rules that determine exactly how we can determine minimums and maximums, and that, say, Oona being a Beast Heart Adept violates our thread rules.

The truth is that have guidelines, but we don't (and shouldn't) have anything like clear rules about how to balance, say, the likelihood of home brew vs. obscure splatbook vs. apparent contradiction vs. core explanation that just doesn't pass the smell test. We could, in theory, have strict rules (although we'd never be able to actually agree on what they should be), but in the end, any system like this is a tradeoff between arbitrariness and confusion, and the degree of arbitrariness we'd need to eliminate all confusion would lead to some pretty wonky explanations.

So Peelee has it right; by all means if you'd like to make a case for 26+, go for it, and if you convince enough people, we can change it. The reason we listed Beast Heart Adept is that it fit sufficiently well that a lot of us decided that it was the simplest explanation for what we see--sure, we could explain Oona through core-only rules, but the reductio-ad-absurdem of this is the "Everyone is an Expert" approach.

In the particular case of Xykon, I think that it's probably true that a majority feels that he's higher than 21, but the easiest explanations for his observed abilities is probably that he's level 32+ altogether, and that feels outlandish enough to enough people that we've collectively gone looking for other ways to explain stuff, and the thread rules don't really give us guidance as to whether an invisible item, non-core feat, off-panel scroll use, or house rule about metamagic use is a better explanation so we've stuck with the lowest level no one wants to context.

It's probably worth someone's time to outline all of the extant theories about how Xykon does what he does and see if the consensus is different than it was. It's probably even fair to say that we've gotten a little bit looser about going with consensus most likely as opposed to lowest possible, but I don't think there's any point in pretending that lowest possible is actually a well-defined thing--it just leads to a different quagmire where we can endlessly debate how non-core or obscure or unlikely various explanations are.

Well, there are ways to express that on his bio. For instance; "level 21-27+" (see forum discussion), or "probably level 27+" or "at least level 21, but likely much higher" (and then link to a post on this thread that outlines all the reasons for that). It would be useful for new people visiting the thread to understand the range of Xykon's abilities more, instead of having to slowly grind through old threads and lengthy discussions. I just don't personally feel 21+ is terribly accurate anymore, or even the forum consensus (in the sense that most people here seem to agree he's probably higher, even a lot higher).

[halfeye]

I just don't personally feel 21+ is terribly accurate anymore, or even the forum consensus (in the sense that most people here seem to agree he's probably higher, even a lot higher).

It's not supposed to be accurate, it's supposed to be the barest minimum it could possibly be. Accurate would be exactly right, and we clearly don't know that. 21+ is the least that his level could possibly be, the most his level could possibly be is unknown, there's probably no proof that it's less than 100 (his level being 100 may well be exceedingly unlikely).

[Peelee]

And in any event, "level 21-27+ (see forum discussion)" , or "probably level 27+" or "at least level 21, but likely much higher" all sound like "21+" but with extra steps.

[TooSoon]

And in any event, "level 21-27+ (see forum discussion)" , or "probably level 27+" or "at least level 21, but likely much higher" all sound like "21+" but with extra steps.

It helps the newbie reader better understand Xykon's abilities, instead of being like "oh, he's just level 21+", because there's a link to a bunch of other info that outlines the evidence he is probably much higher, but we just haven't agreed on where to put that higher number. In some ways this problem is unique to Xykon on the lists. With most characters you can say "well, hey, it's genuinely possible this 17+ character is actually only level 17". With Xykon it feels like everyone agrees it's not plausible he's only level 21, and that he must be considerably stronger, but people here can't agree on the exact number is all. Because of this I feel it's worth providing that information to people in the bio.

[Peelee]

It helps the newbie reader better understand Xykon's abilities

I can't help but feel that reading the comic would do a much better job helping a newbie reader understand Xykon's abilities.

[danielxcutter]

Or the Metamagic Specialist alternate class feature.

Metamagic Specialist only lets you apply metamagic feats without the casting increase. In addition, Sudden Maximize doesn’t increase the casting time, so... irrelevant I guess? I mean since Sudden Maximize is only 1/day, that’s not sufficient for him to cast a Maximized Lightning Bolt after he cast Maximized Energy Drain in the same day.

[TooSoon]

I can't help but feel that reading the comic would do a much better job helping a newbie reader understand Xykon's abilities.

I wonder if we could use Cloister to nail down Xykon's caster level better. Not the DC, the effect time. We know it was cast on Hayley, Belkar, and various resistance paladins, around the start of the year 1184. Have any of them received a sending or been scried on since then? It's now 3 weeks or so till the end of the year 1184, and we have other year markers too (like the 4 month timeskip) so it's possible we'll be able to nail it down with considerable accuracy. O'Chul just had someone send to him right? And they've sent to him before.

[Jasdoif]

In addition, Sudden Maximize doesn’t increase the casting time

It's a metamagic feat (it has the metamagic descriptor), applying it to a spontaneously cast spell increases the casting time like any other metamagic feat would.

[Peelee]

It's a metamagic feat (it has the metamagic descriptor), applying it to a spontaneously cast spell increases the casting time like any other metamagic feat would.

Indeed. The "sudden" refers to the fact it doesn't need to be prepared as Metamagic, which is irrelevant for sorcs. It does also negate the increased level, but that's still half the feat's benefit out the door for a sorcerer.

[Jasdoif]

Indeed. The "sudden" refers to the fact it doesn't need to be prepared as Metamagic, which is irrelevant for sorcs. It does also negate the increased level, but that's still half the feat's benefit out the door for a sorcerer.

Yeah; it works out pretty much the same as metamagic rods, which explicitly restate that sorcerers still have to take extra time to cast the modified spell. 3.5 horribly overvalued spontaneous casting....

Anyway, if we're talking about hypothetical Xykonity...The lowest I've come up with that looks reasonably Xykon-esque is Sorcerer 22/Archmage 2; using both Archmage levels' high arcana to get energy drain as a spell-like ability (ultimately four times per day), and then taking Maximize Spell-Like Ability (energy drain) at 24th-level; so he can use maximized energy drain, without needing to expend a spell slot, three times per day. Sudden Still, Maximize Spell, and Metamagic Specialist (and/or Rapid Metamagic) can handle the rest. Has the added bonus of reducing how high a Charisma score Xykon would need for all the energy drains in Start of Darkness.

[TooSoon]

Yeah; it works out pretty much the same as metamagic rods, which explicitly restate that sorcerers still have to take extra time to cast the modified spell. 3.5 horribly overvalued spontaneous casting....

Anyway, if we're talking about hypothetical Xykonity...The lowest I've come up with that looks reasonably Xykon-esque is Sorcerer 22/Archmage 2; using both Archmage levels' high arcana to get energy drain as a spell-like ability (ultimately four times per day), and then taking Maximize Spell-Like Ability (energy drain) at 24th-level; so he can use maximized energy drain, without needing to expend a spell slot, three times per day. Sudden Still, Maximize Spell, and Metamagic Specialist (and/or Rapid Metamagic) can handle the rest. Has the added bonus of reducing how high a Charisma score Xykon would need for all the energy drains in Start of Darkness.

So it's not possible for him to have used ACFs to Maximise his spells more than once per day at level 21? He'd need to be 24 or higher?

[Reboot]

Can I just ask that, once and for all, we rule out the smegging "invisible metamagic rod" thing, along with anything else that requires a large object to be present, yet not drawn in the relevant panels or referenced in dialogue (including later)?

If we're going with evidence-based geekery, then item speculation has to be about something (a) seen on panel, like clothes which may have magical properties, (b) referenced in dialogue or (c) would genuinely not show up on panel (small items like rings which Rich simply doesn't draw most of the time, until they're plot-essential, Belkar's Vest of Resistance under his clothes, etc). Not "2 to 3 feet long" metal poles, more than twice as big as your average wand.

[Jasdoif]

So it's not possible for him to have used ACFs to Maximise his spells more than once per day at level 21? He'd need to be 24 or higher?

Taking Maximize Spell-Like Ability for a ninth-level-spell-equivalent spell-like ability requires a caster level of at least 22, and he needs to have Epic Spellcasting in there somewhere so 21st seems like the place.

I suppose it's possible he instead is Sorcerer 21(+) with Sudden Maximize for maximized energy drain, Sudden Still for still meteor swarm, Metamagic Specialist to allow the still meteor swarm to work while grappled, standard Maximize Spell for maximized lightning bolt; and of course took Epic Spellcasting at 21st....Though frankly, that "Cha 28+ solely because that'll give him a bonus 9th-level slot to explain a string of energy drains in Start of Darkness" is what bothers me the most about the current listing for Xykon.

[CriticalFailure]

Are there any goblin clerics who use weapons? What does this mean?

[TooSoon]

Can I just ask that, once and for all, we rule out the smegging "invisible metamagic rod" thing, along with anything else that requires a large object to be present, yet not drawn in the relevant panels or referenced in dialogue (including later)?

If we're going with evidence-based geekery, then item speculation has to be about something (a) seen on panel, like clothes which may have magical properties, (b) referenced in dialogue or (c) would genuinely not show up on panel (small items like rings which Rich simply doesn't draw most of the time, until they're plot-essential, Belkar's Vest of Resistance under his clothes, etc). Not "2 to 3 feet long" metal poles, more than twice as big as your average wand.

Definitely agree with this. Does anyone really think we should keep the rod reference?

[Peelee]

Definitely agree with this. Does anyone really think we should keep the rod reference?

Not I. Down with the rod!

Now, serious question, what would that effectively change?

[danielxcutter]

I personally wonder if Xykon was using his 10th and higher slots to cast Energy Drain as - he was trying to prove a point to Dorukan in regards to Sorcerers and Wizards, after all. That being said, he’d only need one extra slot to cast seven, since 20th+ level Sorcerers get six 9th-level slots per day...

Oh, mark me down for “get rid of the rod” as well. It’s one thing to cast a spell as a swift action (Arcane Spellsurge or Circlet of Rapid Casting, for example), but I can’t think of any other Maximizing items besides the rod... and as mentioned by others, that one doesn’t really make sense.

[TooSoon]

Taking Maximize Spell-Like Ability for a ninth-level-spell-equivalent spell-like ability requires a caster level of at least 22, and he needs to have Epic Spellcasting in there somewhere so 21st seems like the place.

I suppose it's possible he instead is Sorcerer 21(+) with Sudden Maximize for maximized energy drain, Sudden Still for still meteor swarm, Metamagic Specialist to allow the still meteor swarm to work while grappled, standard Maximize Spell for maximized lightning bolt; and of course took Epic Spellcasting at 21st....Though frankly, that "Cha 28+ solely because that'll give him a bonus 9th-level slot to explain a string of energy drains in Start of Darkness" is what bothers me the most about the current listing for Xykon.

So does that all mean he has to be level 22+ then?

[danielxcutter]

So does that all mean he has to be level 22+ then?

Erm... still 21+, if he has Sudden Maximize and Sudden Still, and we can't prove he doesn't.

I don't really like it either, but we can't prove a higher minimum.

Incidentally, does anyone else think it would be reasonable for Xykon as a person - that is, based on his personality, preferred spells and MO, not actual proof related to the purpose of this thread - to have taken Metamagic School Focus for necromancy and/or evocation? His spell list surprisingly includes a wider variety of schools than I expected, but necromancy and evocation seem to be his main go-to.

[TooSoon]

Erm... still 21+, if he has Sudden Maximize and Sudden Still, and we can't prove he doesn't.

I don't really like it either, but we can't prove a higher minimum.

Incidentally, does anyone else think it would be reasonable for Xykon as a person - that is, based on his personality, preferred spells and MO, not actual proof related to the purpose of this thread - to have taken Metamagic School Focus for necromancy and/or evocation? His spell list surprisingly includes a wider variety of schools than I expected, but necromancy and evocation seem to be his main go-to.

I thought he was limited to 1 spell per day with that? Wouldn't that preclude the multiple instances?

[danielxcutter]

I thought he was limited to 1 spell per day with that? Wouldn't that preclude the multiple instances?

Erm...

Taking Maximize Spell-Like Ability for a ninth-level-spell-equivalent spell-like ability requires a caster level of at least 22, and he needs to have Epic Spellcasting in there somewhere so 21st seems like the place.

I suppose it's possible he instead is Sorcerer 21(+) with Sudden Maximize for maximized energy drain, Sudden Still for still meteor swarm, Metamagic Specialist to allow the still meteor swarm to work while grappled, standard Maximize Spell for maximized lightning bolt; and of course took Epic Spellcasting at 21st....Though frankly, that "Cha 28+ solely because that'll give him a bonus 9th-level slot to explain a string of energy drains in Start of Darkness" is what bothers me the most about the current listing for Xykon.

Emphasis mine, but I'm guessing you missed this...?

[hamishspence]

Emphasis mine, but I'm guessing you missed this...?

The Cha 28 isn't that hard to get - if he started out at Cha 18.

3 pts for being Venerable, 2 pts for being a Lich, 5 pts for being level 20+ : Cha 28.

[danielxcutter]

The Cha 28 isn't that hard to get - if he started out at Cha 18.

3 pts for being Venerable, 2 pts for being a Lich, 5 pts for being level 20+ : Cha 28.

Er, I was talking to ToSoon about Xykon's minimum level.

[Quebbster]

I wonder if we could use Cloister to nail down Xykon's caster level better. Not the DC, the effect time. We know it was cast on Hayley, Belkar, and various resistance paladins, around the start of the year 1184. Have any of them received a sending or been scried on since then? It's now 3 weeks or so till the end of the year 1184, and we have other year markers too (like the 4 month timeskip) so it's possible we'll be able to nail it down with considerable accuracy. O'Chul just had someone send to him right? And they've sent to him before.

Haley received a Sending in the pyramid and again on the airship after the godsmoot. Don't remember O'chul getting a sending, Lien seems to be the prefered recipient.

[hamishspence]

Er, I was talking to ToSoon about Xykon's minimum level.

I was focusing more on the quote:

Though frankly, that "Cha 28+ solely because that'll give him a bonus 9th-level slot to explain a string of energy drains in Start of Darkness" is what bothers me the most about the current listing for Xykon.

[danielxcutter]

Ah, I see. Even if his starting Charisma was lower, 28+ is still plausible - I refuse to believe that he's not wearing a Cloak of Charisma.

[Chronos]

We can't conclude anything from Superb Dispelling, because we don't know the DC. We can't just assume that his Superb Dispelling is the standard spell by that name in the book, because there is no such thing as a "standard epic spell". Every epic caster develops their own epic spells, which may or may not be similar to the spells developed by other epic casters, and the ones in the book are just illustrative examples.

On standards of evidence, my take is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence... but ordinary claims require only ordinary evidence. Like, we're not actually rock-solid 100% certain that Xykon's Charisma is 28+, because there are other ways to explain what we see, but it'd be really easy for him to get a Cha that high or higher, and he would have good reason to do so, so it's only an ordinary claim.

On the other hand, any member of the Order reaching 17th level would be extraordinary enough that I'd want the evidence to be incontrovertible. V casting an actual 9th-level spell would be enough for me; V casting a spell that's apparently metamagicked up to 9 wouldn't be, because there are other ways to do that (and besides, if V actually is 17, then we should see an actual 9th-level spell very soon after that, so there's little disadvantage to waiting to be sure).

I don't have the patience to puzzle through the timeline, but if anyone wants to set a maximum number of weeks for Haley (or any other Cloistered person) before being scried/Sended/whatever, then I would support putting in a maximum level for Xykon. I say this even if the maximum we get is something absurdly high like 50 or whatever: Having an absurdly high cap is better than having no cap at all, just like a floor that everyone thinks is probably too low is better than no floor at all.

[b_jonas]

If Xykon wants to pass a Spellcraft check to research an epic spell like Superb Dispelling, can he really use the charisma increase from Eagle's Splendor to make that easier? I suspect no, because Eagle's Splendor lasts for a very short time only, and the Spellcraft check probably takes several hours. That is also why he can't use the charisma gain from Eagle's Splendor to get more spell slots.

[JumboWheat01]

Spellcraft is also an Intelligence skill, not a Charisma skill, so Eagle's Splendor wouldn't do anything for it anyways. Fox's Cunning is what is needed. Still doesn't last long, though.

[Jasdoif]

Like, we're not actually rock-solid 100% certain that Xykon's Charisma is 28+, because there are other ways to explain what we see, but it'd be really easy for him to get a Cha that high or higher, and he would have good reason to do so, so it's only an ordinary claim.

It's true; the only real value to having "28" as a specific threshold is that being able to point to the bonus-spells-by-ability-score table gives the claim the appearance of legitimacy.