Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

[Ephemera]

Well, there are ways to express that on his bio. For instance; "level 21-27+" (see forum discussion), or "probably level 27+" or "at least level 21, but likely much higher" (and then link to a post on this thread that outlines all the reasons for that). It would be useful for new people visiting the thread to understand the range of Xykon's abilities more, instead of having to slowly grind through old threads and lengthy discussions. I just don't personally feel 21+ is terribly accurate anymore, or even the forum consensus (in the sense that most people here seem to agree he's probably higher, even a lot higher).

I'd be fine with this--as may have been clear from my screed, I've always thought that the emphasis on pinning down exact floors/ceilings rather than including information about various theories isn't really necessary or helpful. It's not like we have a limit on column inches, or like this is the Index of the Giant's comments, where readability is a real issue.

In fact, I would like to formally propose (not that there is such a process) that we really only have two hugely controversial topics: Xykon's level, and Tarquin's arrow snatching. Why don't we just outline the two or three most popular/reasonable theories for each of them and stat them out (or at least describe them. It won't be that much material, won't be that hard to digest, and will really help next time someone wants to raise this subject?

As far as the invisible metamagic rod, I agree it seems rather unlikely...I think that theory is mostly still kicking around because the existence of such an item suggests that a home-brew/custom item with a similar effect seems like a semi-reasonable theory. I think this comes back to what Chronos was saying about extraordinary claims needing extraordinary evidence--obviously an invisible rod is an extraordinary claim, but at the time so was the alternative (being level 29, I think).

[Reboot]

Well, if we're taking the rules as literal, and we're looking for a floor beyond which Xykon's level cannot fall...

...what level would he have to be to cast Cloister?

Per Celia, the area was "several miles wide" and targeted both the area itself AND "each and every living creature within the area at the time of casting". (The cutaway has Xykon describe it as "the most powerful abjuration ever"). Moreover, per Tsukiko, Xykon was renewing it "every few weeks" even though the effect lasted "months".

As for targets within the area, there were 87 Hobgoblin Legions, of which the first had 300 members. So they started with an army in the region of 26k hobgoblins. Obviously, that will have fallen with "discipline problems" and losses in the battle, but to that you also have to add the surviving non-evacuated population of Azure City.

For mitigating, it could be a 10-minute spell perhaps, but certainly not days, not involving ritual participants. We don't see Xykon to see if he took any backlash (as he did with Superb Dispelling), but he's talking immediately afterward, so it certainly isn't that serious. Also, it has a duration of "one week per caster level" and "For spells with durations longer than instantaneous, the backlash damage is per round", so he would be taking damage the whole time it was active (moreso, since he recasts it before the original duration is up?).

OTOH, since Haley receives a sending in "Blood Runs...", that puts a limit on the number of weeks it could have lasted.

So, uh, anyone able to put this together?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Xykon didn't start with constant renewals until after the Darth V attack, by which point Haley had already rejoined the Order. So Haley getting a Sending just gives us an upper cap on X's level.

[Reboot]

Xykon didn't start with constant renewals until after the Darth V attack,...

Umm... exactly the opposite. He explicitly was doing it BEFORE "the Darth V attack" - the exact line is "Xykon's been renewing the Cloister spell every few weeks. [O-Chul] was still here last time he did, so he'll be unfindable for months." - or else O'Chul wouldn't have been "unfindable for months", because OC was gone from Gobbotopia City after that.

[TooSoon]

We can't conclude anything from Superb Dispelling, because we don't know the DC. We can't just assume that his Superb Dispelling is the standard spell by that name in the book, because there is no such thing as a "standard epic spell". Every epic caster develops their own epic spells, which may or may not be similar to the spells developed by other epic casters, and the ones in the book are just illustrative examples.

On standards of evidence, my take is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence... but ordinary claims require only ordinary evidence. Like, we're not actually rock-solid 100% certain that Xykon's Charisma is 28+, because there are other ways to explain what we see, but it'd be really easy for him to get a Cha that high or higher, and he would have good reason to do so, so it's only an ordinary claim.

On the other hand, any member of the Order reaching 17th level would be extraordinary enough that I'd want the evidence to be incontrovertible. V casting an actual 9th-level spell would be enough for me; V casting a spell that's apparently metamagicked up to 9 wouldn't be, because there are other ways to do that (and besides, if V actually is 17, then we should see an actual 9th-level spell very soon after that, so there's little disadvantage to waiting to be sure).

I don't have the patience to puzzle through the timeline, but if anyone wants to set a maximum number of weeks for Haley (or any other Cloistered person) before being scried/Sended/whatever, then I would support putting in a maximum level for Xykon. I say this even if the maximum we get is something absurdly high like 50 or whatever: Having an absurdly high cap is better than having no cap at all, just like a floor that everyone thinks is probably too low is better than no floor at all.

As other people have said, if a spell from the handbooks (especially a core spell) is used then the default assumption is that it is that spell, until evidence to the contrary is provided. If we were to take the opposite approach we could invalidate half the information on the list by just saying "well, hey, maybe that was a homebrew fireball spell/whatever". The Giant has also specifically noted when he makes mistakes like this (eg he homebrews a spell that he didn't realise already existed). It says Superb Dispelling, so we should rightly assume it's the handbook Superb Dispelling. It even has the damage backlash in the art.

I do like the max cap idea with Cloister though. Hayley gets the sending in the Pyramid. The most precise date we have to nail that down is Redcloak telling us that it was been 1 year minus 6 weeks since the start of the founding of the Goblin nation (in his speech). So 46 weeks, or level 46 max. I guess maybe a week or so could have passed between that speech and Hayley getting to the Pyramid from the desert. Someone can probably find the references to a few days passing for X, and a few days passing for Y. That was the time they travelled to Tarquin's city, spent time there, then got to the Windy Canyon.

NB: I searched and I found someone on here stat Cloister out to a DC of 109. Not that it's definitive or anything, though if people want to use it I'd be willing.

[danielxcutter]

Spellcraft is also an Intelligence skill, not a Charisma skill, so Eagle's Splendor wouldn't do anything for it anyways. Fox's Cunning is what is needed. Still doesn't last long, though.

Um... are you aware of the variant mentioned earlier and considering it a load of owlbear manure, or did you just miss it? I don’t think I’ve been bad enough to get blocked by anyone...

[Kurald Galain]

As other people have said, if a spell from the handbooks (especially a core spell) is used

Superb Dispelling is not a Core spell.

[TooSoon]

Superb Dispelling is not a Core spell.

It's an official Epic Spell though. Core or non-core, spells here are prima facie taken at face value unless there are compelling reasons to the contrary. This was called Superb Dispelling and looked like Superb Dispelling, down to the backlash damage, so unless the Giant says it was homebrewed you wouldn't assume it is. As I said, you'd invalidate half the list if you took that "hey, it could be homebrewed" approach to feats/abilities/spells.

[Peelee]

It's an official Epic Spell though. Core or non-core, spells here are prima facie taken at face value unless there are compelling reasons to the contrary. This was called Superb Dispelling and looked like Superb Dispelling, down to the backlash damage, so unless the Giant says it was homebrewed you wouldn't assume it is. As I said, you'd invalidate half the list if you took that "hey, it could be homebrewed" approach to feats/abilities/spells.

Conversely, that scene took place long after the Giant stopped caring about specific rules accuracy and very likely didn't bother to think whether Xykon, as originally imagined, would be able to cast it. It's an epic spell, he's an epic spellcaster, that's all.

This interpretation is actively unhelpful to the thread's mission, I realize, but is also probably true.

[TooSoon]

Conversely, that scene took place long after the Giant stopped caring about specific rules accuracy and very likely didn't bother to think whether Xykon, as originally imagined, would be able to cast it. It's an epic spell, he's an epic spellcaster, that's all.

This interpretation is actively unhelpful to the thread's mission, I realize, but is also probably true.

It also took place long before the Giant made multiple clarifications about spells he had inadvertently used, without realizing they had a game book alternative. From memory Mass Death Ward was one example, I think another might have been Acid Orb? In any event, even if the Giant cares less about focusing on the rules these days, he still makes clarifications when he creates confusion like this, and he's said nothing about Superb Dispelling being homebrew; so the default assumption should be it isn't. That should also be the default for everything until the Giant says he's no longer following the rules; at which point the purpose of this thread should be revised, and maybe a balance of probabilities headcannon approach should be used more if he ever gets to that point.

[Peelee]

That should also be the default for everything until the Giant says he's no longer following the rules

In 2011, he didn't say exactly that, but the others things he said, as well as the context, help.

What, do you think Rich has infinite time to look up every rule so his comic is completely, 100% D&D accurate or that he'd rather tell an interesting story based more on his own ideas?

tell an interesting story based more on his own ideas?

This one.

She made a wight with Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-Making Spell, which happens to have no verbal component. Who cares? I sure don't.

If you are looking for moment-to-moment rules accuracy from this comic, you probably should stop reading. You are guaranteed to be continually frustrated and disappointed, because I don't care about that at all.

Asked, answered, thread locked before people try to guess what the stats of that spell are.

ETA: A decade after he said that, I would venture a guess that thid thread is still alive because hey, let's try to see how they could be built, because why not? But we just have to acknowledge that there will probably be things that don't line up. Insistence that we stick to unyieldingly rigid parameters doesn't acknowledge that; a little give might be required sometimes.

[TooSoon]

In 2011, he didn't say exactly that, but the others things he said, as well as the context, help.



ETA: A decade after he said that, I would venture a guess that thid thread is still alive because hey, let's try to see how they could be built, because why not? But we just have to acknowledge that there will probably be things that don't line up. Insistence that we stick to unyieldingly rigid parameters doesn't acknowledge that; a little give might be required sometimes.

Of course this will happen, and that's fine; as I said, I'm talking about the default assumption for the purposes of this thread. If the default assumption is "rules are irrelevant, it's about telling a good story, everything could be homebrew" then the thread has no purpose. For the purposes of this thread, the default assumption should always be a listed spell/ability/feat works as per handbooks, etc, until evidence it was homebrew/handwaved is presented for that specific instance. It's not like it will matter alot for the purposes of stating Xykon, since it seems we can't use Superb Dispelling to accurately get his level, but as a matter of principle it's important to point out.

[dancrilis]

On Hilgya Firehelm's Alignment:

Chaotic (required for Chaos domain) Evil (WXP),

Don't have the book handy can anyone provide me with what it says in WXP for her being evil.
I bring it up (knowing it might have been talk to death already) as here she Turns Undead (rather then Rebukes them) and that indicates a Non-Evil Alignment (baring feats, class abilities etc that I am unaware of - and which do not seem to be listed on her entry).

[Schroeswald]

On Hilgya Firehelm's Alignment:


Don't have the book handy can anyone provide me with what it says in WXP for her being evil.
I bring it up (knowing it might have been talk to death already) as here she Turns Undead (rather then Rebukes them) and that indicates a Non-Evil Alignment (baring feats, class abilities etc that I am unaware of - and which do not seem to be listed on her entry).

I forgot the lines but I think it was something about being opposed by alignment or something? This has been talked to death yes, but the thing is that by RAW both her and Loki would have to be non-evil (and I think that its pretty hard to argue that Loki isn't intended to be Evil), however there are frequent exceptions to stuff like choosing turn or rebuke, and also (iirc this wasn't mentioned then but I'm mentioning it now), Redcloak (who definitely has Rebuke and is explicitly Lawful Evil) and Jirix have said Turn Undead when going against the ghost-martyrs.

[Jasdoif]

Don't have the book handy can anyone provide me with what it says in WXP for her being evil.

Spoiler: War and XPs Commentary

Show

The first time around, Durkon's opposite had been Hilgya, who, while evil, was not particularly opposed to Durkon himself.

I bring it up (knowing it might have been talk to death already) as here she Turns Undead (rather then Rebukes them) and that indicates a Non-Evil Alignment (baring feats, class abilities etc that I am unaware of - and which do not seem to be listed on her entry).

It's been talked to death and undeath and destruction and resurrection. At least once each. Of course, if you look at Hilgya murdering Durkon to make herself feel better, and still don't think she's Evil; I'm not sure what to tell you.

Well, unless it involves the thread listing whatever explanation feels the cleverest, no matter how baseless; in which case there's now precedent for that.

[dancrilis]

It's been talked to death and undeath and destruction and resurrection. At least once each. Of course, if you look at Hilgya murdering Durkon to make herself feel better, and still don't think she's Evil; I'm not sure what to tell you.

Well, unless it involves the thread listing whatever explanation feels the cleverest, no matter how baseless; in which case there's now precedent for that.

Less about is she evil or not-evil and more if we are comfortable enough to list her as Evil how does she Turn Undead (from a Geekery prespective), and if we cannot find anything that works should we be comfortable listing her as Evil (from a Geekery prespective).

[Schroeswald]

Less about is she evil or not-evil and more if we are comfortable enough to list her as Evil how does she Turn Undead (from a Geekery prespective), and if we cannot find anything that works should she be comfortable listing her as Evil (from a Geekery prespective).

From a geekery perspective, she's been explicitly called evil, and there are several possible explanations for why she could Turn Undead (Loki gives turning and spontaneous healing to clerics instead of rebuke and spontaneous harm, from what I understand several different gods in official works have exceptions similar to this, or she just said Turn Undead like Redcloak has), the evidence sides for evil.

[Jasdoif]

Less about is she evil or not-evil and more if we are comfortable enough to list her as Evil how does she Turn Undead (from a Geekery prespective), and if we cannot find anything that works should she be comfortable listing her as Evil (from a Geekery prespective).

There's at least one deity (Kelemvor, I think) whose clerics all turn undead, even the Evil ones; the most common theory revolves around Loki being similar on account of his stated feelings on the undead.

[TooSoon]

The comic link to V being able to cast four 6th level spells, on his bio, should be to comic 626, not 627.

[ThatOneSkaSon]

Belkar trips Crystal in 616 and it doesn’t look like he provoked an AOO doing so, which I believe he would need Improved Trip to do so.

[danielxcutter]

Belkar trips Crystal in 616 and it doesn’t look like he provoked an AOO doing so, which I believe he would need Improved Trip to do so.

Doesn’t Belkar have 8 Int or something? And any Barbarian ACFs that would give Improved Trip are at 2nd level...

[Quartz]

Doesn’t Belkar have 8 Int or something? And any Barbarian ACFs that would give Improved Trip are at 2nd level...

Wolf Totem specifically.

However, various variant Monks get Improved Trip too. The Passive Way Monk gets it at 2nd level and Hand and Fist Monk gets it at 6th. The former would be a better fit as not only does it not require as many class levels but it also invokes the Rule of Funny. Note that Belkar now being CE is not a problem: Monks don't lose much when they stop being Lawful. Or start wearing armour, for that matter.

But Barbarian is a much easier fit.

BTW Looking at Belkar's write-up on page 1, I see he has 4 ranks in Spellcraft. I didn't realise that you needed Spellcraft to be able to cast a spell from a scroll. The SRD does not state this requirement

[dancrilis]

BTW Looking at Belkar's write-up on page 1, I see he has 4 ranks in Spellcraft. I didn't realise that you needed Spellcraft to be able to cast a spell from a scroll. The SRD does not state this requirement

The writing on a scroll must be deciphered before a character can use it or know exactly what spell it contains. This requires a read magic spell or a successful Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level).

You could argue that he cast read magic first I suppose, other then that if you assume he has an Int penalty (which I am dubious about) then he needs at least a 3 spellcraft to get a 23 to cast a third level spell - and while one can use Use Magic Device for this normally, that takes a minute which he didn't have due to Elan's injuries - so spellcraft seems the only option available.

[Quartz]

You could argue that he cast read magic first I suppose, other then that if you assume he has an Int penalty (which I am dubious about) then he needs at least a 3 spellcraft to get a 23 to cast a third level spell - and while one can use Use Magic Device for this normally, that takes a minute which he didn't have due to Elan's injuries - so spellcraft seems the only option available.

More simply, the scroll could have been labelled...

[Peelee]

More simply, the scroll could have been labelled...

Still needs to be able to use it, which requires the scrolls writing be deciphered.

[dancrilis]

More simply, the scroll could have been labelled...

Labelled or not you still need to decipher the magic written on the spell - there does not seem to be a 'but I was told it was X spell' exemption, there does not even seem to be an exception if you were the one who scribed the scroll.

[Chronos]

It might perhaps be worth putting a parenthetical (despite evil alignment) next to Hilgya's Turn Undead ability, just to acknowledge that it's unusual.

And if I recall correctly, there are a lot of cases where someone doesn't take an attack of opportunity where they would be expected to be entitled to one, enough so that we'd concluded that AoOs in the comic aren't consistent enough to be used to determine anything.

As to the Giant's stance on the rules, the way I see it, he's going off the top of his head, but his head is so steeped in D&D that when he does so, it is almost always consistent with the rules. I mean, we've caught some inconsistencies over the years, but precious few of them.

[danielxcutter]

Possibly because we don’t prove - or know, really - the mechanics behind some of the characters’ actions. I mean, Tarquin is almost certainly a Fighter/Swordsage multiclass (possibly with a bit of Monk as well), but we can’t prove it.

[Quartz]

Wolf Totem specifically.

However, various variant Monks get Improved Trip too. The Passive Way Monk gets it at 2nd level and Hand and Fist Monk gets it at 6th. The former would be a better fit as not only does it not require as many class levels but it also invokes the Rule of Funny. Note that Belkar now being CE is not a problem: Monks don't lose much when they stop being Lawful. Or start wearing armour, for that matter.

As important as Improved Trip I note that Belkar has the Tumble skill. This is not on the Ranger skill list, nor is it on the Barbarian list, and there's no mention of cross-class skills in the SRD so how does he get it? It is on the Monk list.

So, if we assume that Belkar has at least 11 levels of Ranger (to safely cast a 3rd level spell) then we have 4 levels 'free'. With 2 levels of Passive Way Monk he could have 5 ranks in Tumble - enough to gain synergy bonuses - and Improved Trip.

So perhaps Belkar should be listed as Monk (Passive Way) 2+ / Ranger 11+ / Barbarian 1+ or Monk 1+ / Ranger 11+ / Barbarian (Wolf) 2+ (15 levels total). The former gives him Improved Trip as a Monk; the latter gives him it as a Barbarian. This massive multiclassing might also account for his lower level.

The question then becomes: has Belkar displayed any Monk abilities? We know he doesn't wear armour, despite Rangers being able to wear light armour. Has he demonstrated Evasion? Anything else?

Oh yes, remember Belkar's reaction to V's Owl's Wisdom? Passive Way all the way.

[hamishspence]

As important as Improved Trip I note that Belkar has the Tumble skill. This is not on the Ranger skill list, nor is it on the Barbarian list, and there's no mention of cross-class skills in the SRD so how does he get it?

Sure there is:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillsSummary.htm

Skills Summary
If you buy a class skill, your character gets 1 rank (equal to a +1 bonus on checks with that skill) for each skill point. If you buy other classes’ skills (cross-class skills), you get ½ rank per skill point.

Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3.

Your maximum rank in a cross-class skill is one-half of this number (do not round up or down).