Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

[dancrilis]

...there's no mention of cross-class skills in the SRD...

Yes there is.

We know he doesn't wear armour

Got a source for this?

[Peelee]

Sure there is:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillsSummary.htm

Skills Summary
If you buy a class skill, your character gets 1 rank (equal to a +1 bonus on checks with that skill) for each skill point. If you buy other classes’ skills (cross-class skills), you get ½ rank per skill point.

Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3.

Your maximum rank in a cross-class skill is one-half of this number (do not round up or down).

Not only that, they're mentioned in the comic directly.

[Quartz]

Sure there is:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/skillsSummary.htm

I can't believe I missed that!

Anyway, there's another tell for Belkar being multi-classed ab initio: remember the strip where everyone else goes up a level and he does not and he has a comprehensive whinge about it? There's your XP penalty right there.

[Peelee]

I can't believe I missed that!

Anyway, there's another tell for Belkar being multi-classed ab initio: remember the strip where everyone else goes up a level and he does not and he has a comprehensive whinge about it? There's your XP penalty right there.

Or he was out of sync with the party XP-wise when he joined.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah, a minor bit of roleplaying got him his level up, so he was just *this* close to it.

[danielxcutter]

There’s also the Skilled City-Dweller ACF, from the web expansion for Cityscape.

[b_jonas]

As important as Improved Trip I note that Belkar has the Tumble skill. […] So perhaps Belkar should be listed as Monk (Passive Way) 2+ / Ranger 11+ / Barbarian 1+ or Monk 1+ / Ranger 11+ / Barbarian (Wolf) 2+ (15 levels total).

After what Belkar said about Monks in The Origin of the PCs page 62, I highly doubt that he'd take even one level of the Monk class.

[Quartz]

After what Belkar said about Monks in The Origin of the PCs page 62, I highly doubt that he'd take even one level of the Monk class.

Are you sure he isn't speaking from experience?

[Reboot]

Are you sure he isn't speaking from experience?

A ranger with a sprinkle of barbarian.

[MultitudeMan]

OK, so I know this will be controversial, but I don't think Belkar's INT should be recorded as <10 any more.

I think it should be >10.

Roy's comments in panels 5 and 6 of 1182 indicate that he believes Belkar is of above-average intelligence, especially the part about buying appropriate magic items. The insight into Durkon* might not be INT-based, the taming of Bloodfeast probably isn't, but perceiving a weakness in one's build, and then taking preventative action to ameliorate that weakness, IS intelligent.

The reason for INT<10 is a single line by Belkar on page 39 of OOPC when he says "I may not be the brightest torch in the dungeon", but if anything, this shows an understanding of his own limitations, rather than being oblivious to them, as one might expect of a low-INT character.

I'm not saying his INT is as high as V's, or even Roy's, but it's not 10 or less.

So, I'm not sure enough people went for this last time, but I'd like to resubmit this idea for consideration. If we allow that Belkar could have INT of 10+, then he could have INT of 13 (or more), and qualify for Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. We could free up a feat slot by finally dumping Craft Disturbing Mental Image if needed :) .

[dancrilis]

So, I'm not sure enough people went for this last time, but I'd like to resubmit this idea for consideration. If we allow that Belkar could have INT of 10+, then he could have INT of 13 (or more), and qualify for Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. We could free up a feat slot by finally dumping Craft Disturbing Mental Image if needed :) .

I have thought for a while he his Intelligence was ok (I would also be dubious about a negative Charisma for him).
Even here the meal he was portrayed as was not ideal but was still a fine quick meal.

If you take the protrayal of Chaotic Evil characters he seems closer to Xykon then to Thog (and on merely chaotic Elan might be closer to Thog, where Belkar may be closer to Haley).

[InvisibleBison]

So, I'm not sure enough people went for this last time, but I'd like to resubmit this idea for consideration. If we allow that Belkar could have INT of 10+, then he could have INT of 13 (or more), and qualify for Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. We could free up a feat slot by finally dumping Craft Disturbing Mental Image if needed :) .

I agree that the evidence for Belkar having low Int is very weak, but I'm not sure there's concrete evidence that it's anything special, either. Where do you think he's used Improved Trip?

[dancrilis]

I agree that the evidence for Belkar having low Int is very weak, but I'm not sure there's concrete evidence that it's anything special, either. Where do you think he's used Improved Trip?

Don't know if he has used it other places but he uses trip here (panel 3) without seemingly provoking an attack of opportunity.

[Peelee]

So, I'm not sure enough people went for this last time, but I'd like to resubmit this idea for consideration. If we allow that Belkar could have INT of 10+, then he could have INT of 13 (or more), and qualify for Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. We could free up a feat slot by finally dumping Craft Disturbing Mental Image if needed :) .

I agree that the <10 is a weak foundation, but I also think Roy's lines in that strip is equally weak (and would be in favor of higher Wisdom, IMO).

[Reboot]

I agree that the <10 is a weak foundation, but I also think Roy's lines in that strip is equally weak (and would be in favor of higher Wisdom, IMO).

Well, between the Owl's Wisdom incident and that he has an ability score penalty, Belkar's WIS is pretty hard-locked (the only exception is if he put a point in it later).

I would take the OTOOPCs line off the table - it's mildly self-deprecating, but far too vague to be indicative of anything more. Is there *ANYTHING* else that suggests Belkar has a sub-10 INT in practice?

[Peelee]

Well, between the Owl's Wisdom incident and that he has an ability score penalty, Belkar's WIS is pretty hard-locked (the only exception is if he put a point in it later).

I agree and am not necessarily arguing that his wisdom is higher. In just saying Roy's line there (which I think is a weak argument) speaks more to wisdom than intelligence, if it speaks to either.

[MultitudeMan]

I agree and am not necessarily arguing that his wisdom is higher. In just saying Roy's line there (which I think is a weak argument) speaks more to wisdom than intelligence, if it speaks to either.

Yes, point taken, but what about combining Roy's comments with the trip? It's come up before that the lack of an AoO by Crystal would imply Belkar having Improved Trip, and the main issue with that was Belkar's supposedly low INT. This adjustment would resolve that issue elegantly.

[Peelee]

Yes, point taken, but what about combining Roy's comments with the trip? It's come up before that the lack of an AoO by Crystal would imply Belkar having Improved Trip, and the main issue with that was Belkar's supposedly low INT. This adjustment would resolve that issue elegantly.

I think the trip stands on its own and doesn't need Roy's comment in favor of it any more than it needs Belkar's comment against it.

ETA: that is to say, I'm in favor of improved trip and 13 Int, since that's required for improved trip. Oh, and also in favor of ditching Craft: Disturbing Mental Images, since that's obviously facetious.

[MultitudeMan]

I think the trip stands on its own and doesn't need Roy's comment in favor of it any more than it needs Belkar's comment against it.

ETA: that is to say, I'm in favor of improved trip and 13 Int, since that's required for improved trip. Oh, and also in favor of ditching Craft: Disturbing Mental Images, since that's obviously facetious.

Excellent, then we are in agreement, sir! Now, should we open up the whole Bounding Assault / Two-Weapon Pounce thing again?

[Chronos]

I've always thought that Belkar's Int was probably somewhere in that vicinity, anyway.

[Gift Jeraff]

Latest Patreon Q&A seems to imply that Malack's base creature was a yuan-ti abomination:

7.) S C: I assume the reason Malack's "snakey" lower half was kept a secret to the reader was for the sake of the battle with Durkon, but is there an in-universe reason why he would hide it? Or was it not even meant to be a secret?

Rich: It wasn’t really intended to be a secret. I honestly thought it was fairly obvious from the beginning by the way he moved. The thing is, there is a slightly different type of “snake person” in D&D that’s one of those monsters that has been trademarked, so it was better to gloss over that detail in dialogue.

https://www.patreon.com/posts/36596373

[hamishspence]

The thing is, there is a slightly different type of “snake person” in D&D that’s one of those monsters that has been trademarked, so it was better to gloss over that detail in dialogue.

The "slightly different type" is Yuan'ti - so The Giant uses "snake person" as the term instead. Possibly, statwise, Malack may function more like a lizardfolk.

Given that Malack actually refers to "us lizardfolk"

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html

I'd say that the idea is that snakes are a kind of lizard, so some lizardfolk are very snaky.

[danielxcutter]

I knew it. So Yuan-Ti Abomination Vampire Cleric. I’m personally betting on Cleric 11+ and Practiced Spellcaster, although the most likely situation is that the Giant forgot (or ignored) the CL requirement for Craft Staff.

[Jasdoif]

I knew it. So Yuan-Ti Abomination Vampire Cleric. I’m personally betting on Cleric 11+ and Practiced Spellcaster, although the most likely situation is that the Giant forgot (or ignored) the CL requirement for Craft Staff.

And you're betting against Cleric 12 because...?

[danielxcutter]

Headcanon! :p

On a slightly more serious note, did the original Cleric 12 count Malack having a bonus spell slot from high Wisdom? I’ll admit that him having a 30+ or higher is unlikely, but considering that the “average” Yuan-Ti Abomination has 20 Wis I can accept it as my headcanon, if not sufficient proof for the thread.

Edit: Also, Cleric 11 just puts him at CR 16 if not counting PC-level gear. That’s where I headcanon the Vector Legion as being at.

[Jasdoif]

On a slightly more serious note, did the original Cleric 12 count Malack having a bonus spell slot from high Wisdom? I’ll admit that him having a 30+ or higher is unlikely, but considering that the “average” Yuan-Ti Abomination has 20 Wis I can accept it as my headcanon, if not sufficient proof for the thread.

Edit: Also, Cleric 11 just puts him at CR 16 if not counting PC-level gear. That’s where I headcanon the Vector Legion as being at.

I was thinking since an Yuan-Ti Abomination's racial hit dice are a multiple of three, Craft Staff could be taken at Cleric 12; without needing Practiced Spellcaster.

And don't worry about "proof". Just point to the standard applied to Oona's nine Beast Heart Adept levels, and Malack happening to be an inexplicably Medium Abomination who rolled a 17 or 18 for Wisdom before racial adjustments and increased it at character level 12/16/20 doesn't even seem out of place.

[InvisibleBison]

Latest Patreon Q&A seems to imply that Malack's base creature was a yuan-ti abomination:

https://www.patreon.com/posts/36596373

I don't think that's what it's saying. The quote is clearly referencing yuan-ti, but they're described as being a "different type of 'snake person'" - different as in different from the type of snake person that Malack was.

[Peelee]

I was thinking since an Yuan-Ti Abomination's racial hit dice are a multiple of three, Craft Staff could be taken at Cleric 12; without needing Practiced Spellcaster.

And don't worry about "proof". Just point to the standard applied to Oona's nine Beast Heart Adept levels, and Malack happening to be an inexplicably Medium Abomination who rolled a 17 or 18 for Wisdom before racial adjustments and increased it at character level 12/16/20 doesn't even seem out of place.

Given the inexplicably Medium-sized Redcloak and Celia, I'd wager that major characters (and others of their species) don't necessarily need to conform to their otherwise Large and Small sizes and can just be Medium.

Except Halflings.

[Jasdoif]

Given the inexplicably Medium-sized Redcloak and Celia, I'd wager that major characters (and others of their species) don't necessarily need to conform to their otherwise Large and Small sizes and can just be Medium.

Are you sure you have gnome more to say about that?

[Peelee]

Are you sure you have gnome more to say about that?

I would engage in pun fun with you, but I always feel like your cleverness dwarfs mine.