Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...

[danielxcutter]

I was thinking since an Yuan-Ti Abomination's racial hit dice are a multiple of three, Craft Staff could be taken at Cleric 12; without needing Practiced Spellcaster.

And don't worry about "proof". Just point to the standard applied to Oona's nine Beast Heart Adept levels, and Malack happening to be an inexplicably Medium Abomination who rolled a 17 or 18 for Wisdom before racial adjustments and increased it at character level 12/16/20 doesn't even seem out of place.

I mean... the elite array can do that. Base 15, after racial and template bonuses 27, all stat points into Wisdom makes 30 without any items whatsoever.

[Jasdoif]

I would engage in pun fun with you, but I always feel like your cleverness dwarfs mine.

Aww, you're putting it on the shelf?

I mean... the elite array can do that. Base 15, after racial and template bonuses 27, all stat points into Wisdom makes 30 without any items whatsoever.

Hmm, I forgot to account for the template...but being able to hit 30+ before the template may even be a feature, depending on how intricate your headcanon is.

[danielxcutter]

Aww, you're putting it on the shelf?

Hmm, I forgot to account for the template...but being able to hit 30+ before the template may even be a feature, depending on how intricate your headcanon is.

I’m not sure if that’s good enough for proof, but if Malack started with a base 15 or higher in Wisdom and put enough points there, it’s not too hard for him to reach that. In fact, Cleric 11 is just enough for him to get that.

I think Malack was able to help partly because the other members of the Legion probably don’t have healing, since even if Shoulder Pads Guy is a Blackguard or Crusader that’s not enough for an entire party, and partly because having such a high Wisdom score both gives him a decent number of spell slots to make up for his lower spell level and a high enough save DC to threaten creatures of their general CR. Heck, a simple Hold Person could have a comparable DC to Redcloak’s Disintegrate.

[Peelee]

Aww, you're putting it on the shelf?

It's hardly my fault you're goblin up all the good ones!

[hamishspence]

Provisionally, as an entry to go under Samantha, I've put together a Ancient Black Dragon entry:

Silvers are Huge at Very Old, Gargantuan at Ancient, Still Gargantuan at Wyrm, and Colossal at Great Wyrm. I could go with it being at the bottom end of Gargantuan and the Ancient Black being at the top end of Huge (since the next age category up, makes it Gargantuan.


Maybe she can be added to the Characters list, under Samantha, as a Deceased Other Character?

I'd have no problem with any of that.

Ancient Black Dragon Mother (deceased)

Ancient Black Dragon female, Sorcerer Level 5+ if knowing Plane Shift (forum)
Cha 19+ (required to cast Soul Bind from a scroll)
Age: 801-1000 (minimum and maximum ages for Ancient)
Feats: Extra Spell (Complete Arcane), if only having 5 sorcerer levels and knowing Plane Shift
Spells: Plane Shift (implied), Finger of Death, Greater Teleport, Antimagic Field
Items: Two scrolls of Soul Bind, or a very similar spell

[TooSoon]

Provisionally, as an entry to go under Samantha, I've put together a Ancient Black Dragon entry:




Ancient Black Dragon Mother (deceased)

Ancient Black Dragon female, Sorcerer Level 5+ if knowing Plane Shift (forum)
Cha 19+ (required to cast Soul Bind from a scroll)
Age: 801-1000 (minimum and maximum ages for Ancient)
Feats: Extra Spell (Complete Arcane), if only having 5 sorcerer levels and knowing Plane Shift
Spells: Plane Shift (implied), Finger of Death, Greater Teleport, Antimagic Field
Items: Two scrolls of Soul Bind, or a very similar spell

I agree too. This is a useful character to reference. I'd just add we should clarify that her caster level as a sorcerer is 17+, as +5 won't make that clear to most people.

[danielxcutter]

Hmm... I don’t think OotS uses Sovereign Archetypes? Loredrake would make sense but doesn’t seem likely.

[hamishspence]

Hmm... I don’t think OotS uses Sovereign Archetypes? Loredrake would make sense but doesn’t seem likely.

They're from Eberron - so I'm not using them.

I'd just add we should clarify that her caster level as a sorcerer is 17+, as +5 won't make that clear to most people.

16th works, via the aforementioned Extra Spell feat. Statted as a 36 HD monster (31HD for Ancient Black Dragon, 5 HD for Sorcerer) it would gain the feat on the same level that it gained 1 8th level Spell Known.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#prerequisites
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.


It's in both Complete Arcane (original source for Warlocks, which are mentioned in-strip) and Tome And Blood (3.0 ed equivalent of Complete Arcane, which where The Giant got the Orb spells originally, based on Tsusiko's original description of them as evocations rather than conjurations). Adds a spell known, must be at least 1 level lower than the highest level spell the caster can cast.




Ancient Black Dragon Mother (deceased)

Ancient Black Dragon female, Sorcerer Level 5+ if knowing Plane Shift : CL 16+ (forum)
Casts as: 16th+ level sorcerer (11th level sorcerer casting from Ancient Black Dragon, 5+ levels of Sorcerer- they stack)
Cha 19+ (required to cast Soul Bind from a scroll) or ranks in Use Magic Device
Age: 801-1000 (minimum and maximum ages for Ancient)
Feats: Extra Spell (Complete Arcane), if only having 5 sorcerer levels and knowing Plane Shift
Spells: Plane Shift (implied), Finger of Death, Greater Teleport, Antimagic Field
Skills: Use Magic Device, if Cha is below 19
Items: Two scrolls of Soul Bind, or a very similar spell

[danielxcutter]

I don’t suppose Practiced Spellcaster would make a difference? I know it just influences the CL, but that wouldn’t change whether or not she could use those scrolls... To be honest, I think “being able to use certain scrolls” doesn’t really pin anything down, because True Dragons all have UMD as RHD class skills.

[TooSoon]

They're from Eberron - so I'm not using them.




16th works, via the aforementioned Extra Spell feat. Statted as a 36 HD monster (31HD for Ancient Black Dragon, 5 HD for Sorcerer) it would gain the feat on the same level that it gained 1 8th level Spell Known.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#prerequisites
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.


It's in both Complete Arcane (original source for Warlocks, which are mentioned in-strip) and Tome And Blood (3.0 ed equivalent of Complete Arcane, which where The Giant got the Orb spells originally, based on Tsusiko's original description of them as evocations rather than conjurations). Adds a spell known, must be at least 1 level lower than the highest level spell the caster can cast.




Ancient Black Dragon Mother (deceased)

Ancient Black Dragon female, Sorcerer Level 5+ if knowing Plane Shift : CL 16+ (forum)
Casts as: 16th+ level sorcerer (11th level sorcerer casting from Ancient Black Dragon, 5+ levels of Sorcerer- they stack)
Cha 19+ (required to cast Soul Bind from a scroll)
Age: 801-1000 (minimum and maximum ages for Ancient)
Feats: Extra Spell (Complete Arcane), if only having 5 sorcerer levels and knowing Plane Shift
Spells: Plane Shift (implied), Finger of Death, Greater Teleport, Antimagic Field
Items: Two scrolls of Soul Bind, or a very similar spell

Caster level would be 17+ if we agree the ABD has three level 7 spells. As a sorcerer you only get 3 at level 17. I don't know if Occam's Raor, which we should be using, should assume something not mentioned or shown on panel to drag it a level lower. Then again, maybe 16+ is a good compromise.

[hamishspence]

Caster level would be 17+ if we agree the ABD has three level 7 spells. As a sorcerer you only get 3 at level 17. I don't know if Occam's Raor, which we should be using, should assume something not mentioned or shown on panel to drag it a level lower. Then again, maybe 16+ is a good compromise.

That's why I phrased it as "5+ sorcerer levels" and "Extra Spell feat, If she only has 5 Sorcerer levels and knows Plane Shift"

To be honest, I think “being able to use certain scrolls” doesn’t really pin anything down, because True Dragons all have UMD as RHD class skills.

True. Character entry has been edited accordingly.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm
Use a Scroll
If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

[InvisibleBison]

16th works, via the aforementioned Extra Spell feat. Statted as a 36 HD monster (31HD for Ancient Black Dragon, 5 HD for Sorcerer) it would gain the feat on the same level that it gained 1 8th level Spell Known.

I'm not sure about this, actually. The rules for leveling up in the PHB say you choose a feat before you gain new spells, so when choosing her feat for her 36th hit die the ABD would not yet know any 8th level spells and thus would be unable to learn plane shift via Extra Spell. Admittedly, the PHB doesn't explicitly say that you have to go through the various steps of leveling up in order, but the fact that it's presented as a numbered list strongly implies that you do.

[hamishspence]

I'm not sure about this, actually. The rules for leveling up in the PHB say you choose a feat before you gain new spells, so when choosing her feat for her 36th hit die the ABD would not yet know any 8th level spells and thus would be unable to learn plane shift via Extra Spell.

The SRD suggests it's after:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#prerequisites
Prerequisites
Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he or she gains the prerequisite.

The prerequisite here, would be the relevant spellcasting ability.

For example, when it says "Scribe Scroll" - prerequisite - Caster Level 1st - the presumption is that the moment a, for example Sorcerer, reaches 1st level, they can take that feat.

Same would apply to Extra Spell - first you choose your 8th level Spell Known, then you select the feat (granting you an extra 7th level Spell Known).


I checked the PHB and the text in the Feat section is exactly the same.


So, Feat selection is always able to be last, after applying all the other class stuff and checking if you have all the prerequisites - including spellcasting-related prerequisites.

Not to mention that the wording of the feat "up to one level lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast" doesn't require you to have picked a Spell Known anyway.

Are you currently able to cast an 8th level spell when you're a 16th level sorcerer? Yes? then you qualify to take the feat, at that same level.


You do need Charisma 18 though - since you can't cast 8th level spells without it, and you're wanting the prerequisite "Able to cast 8th level spells".

[Emanick]

I like the writeup of the Ancient Black Dragon, with the exception of the fact that it seems to treat the assumption that she knows how to cast Plane Shift as the default (even if it does mention that it is, in fact, an assumption). All the ABD ever says is that "I will leave this plane." That's pretty vague, and there are lots of ways for a creature with her level of power to do it. If she can acquire Soul Bind scrolls, she can certainly find someone to plane shift her, or to give her scrolls of Plane Shift. She may even have an item that allows her to move between planes, such as a well of many worlds - which would not be that odd, since per the SRD, a CR 23 dragon (19 for being an ABD plus 4 extra sorcerer levels) should own an average of eighteen major magic items. (If she's using many of them, that makes me reassess the probability that a level 17 wizard would have a good chance against her - said wizard's best shot against a dragon is probably getting her to fail a crucial saving throw, which is a lot less likely if she's relying heavily on magical buffs from powerful items.)

Essentially, I think there needs to be a higher burden of proof to assume that a CR 23 character is even more powerful than that. I don't think we would assume that Xykon was a level higher if we found out he'd left the Material Plane and needed to be a level higher to be able to cast Plane Shift; we'd think it was reasonably likely that he had an item that let him plane shift, or that he found someone to cast the spell for him (let's forget, for the sake of the analogy, that he knows Redcloak).

Also, I think we can probably list a few extra things for the ABD - for one thing, I think we can give her an Armor Class of 38+ (-2 size, +30 natural), and for another, we can probably list her racial abilities (acid immunity, insect plague, etc.) and her approximate stats. It's probably more useful to put an estimate of "Str ~33 (no evidence, racial)" for a dragon than it is to give "Str ~10 (no evidence)" for a random humanoid; the latter doesn't really provide any information at all, but the former at least gives you a ballpark estimate of her Strength that is useful unless you've memorized the stats of an Ancient Black Dragon in 3.5e, and I assume that most people who read through this thread have not, whether or not they play D&D.

[Ephemera]

Why not just be even more specific and exact at the cost of a few more words and list her strength as "unknown, +23 bonus for being ABD" or some such. We could do this for humanoids with modifiers too, and just omit it altogether when there's no modifier or evidence?

[137beth]

I have two questions:

1)For Minrah's alignment, the OP links to strip 1148. I don't see where on that page it confirms her alignment as LG. Was there some other page that says only LG-aligned dwarves go to Valhalla?

2)Xykon's statblock currently says he knows Shatter, citing the time he shattered Roy's sword. In the recent Patreon Q&A, the Giant acknowledges that that scene breaks the rules for Shatter, and suggests that Xykon could have cast "Greater Shatter" without saying the word "Greater." Would it make sense to include that link in Xykon's statblock?

[shmeck]

Thoughts on Durkon casting Wind Walk on 6 other targets in #1202? Seems to set his caster level at 18, unless...

- He cast it again off-panel,
- Thor gave Durkon a big bag of XP in the afterlife,
- Rich doesn’t pay attention to rules (as he increasingly seems not to) except for comedic effect,
- Or...
?

[Jasdoif]

Thoughts on Durkon casting Wind Walk on 6 other targets in #1202? Seems to set his caster level at 18, unless...

- He cast it again off-panel,
- Thor gave Durkon a big bag of XP in the afterlife,
- Rich doesn’t pay attention to rules (as he increasingly seems not to) except for comedic effect,
- Or...
?

- Ambiguous Caster Level Boosting Item^TM

[dancrilis]

Thoughts on Durkon casting Wind Walk on 6 other targets in #1202? Seems to set his caster level at 18, unless...

- He cast it again off-panel,
- Thor gave Durkon a big bag of XP in the afterlife,
- Rich doesn’t pay attention to rules (as he increasingly seems not to) except for comedic effect,
- Or...
?

- He cast it twice, once was off panel.

[Reboot]

Thoughts on Durkon casting Wind Walk on 6 other targets in #1202? Seems to set his caster level at 18, unless...

- He cast it again off-panel,
- Thor gave Durkon a big bag of XP in the afterlife,
- Rich doesn’t pay attention to rules (as he increasingly seems not to) except for comedic effect,
- Or...
?

Strictly, it's also a Touch-range spell, yet we don't even see him touching Minrah (who is on panel & glowing with him as he casts it). There might well have been a second casting (presumably, Haley would have been in that from her reaction) - it's a <6 second spell, and cast outside combat, easy enough to pretend the time passes between panels - but Rich was definitely not paying strict attention to rules.

[Peelee]

Strictly, it's also a Touch-range spell, yet we don't even see him touching Minrah (who is on panel & glowing with him as he casts it). There might well have been a second casting (presumably, Haley would have been in that from her reaction) - it's a <6 second spell, and cast outside combat, easy enough to pretend the time passes between panels - but Rich was definitely not paying strict attention to rules.

Shojo's Wizard also was able to take 6 contactless passengers, and I think it's a fairly safe assumption he wasn't 18th level. I would say Stickworld's transportation spells allow for more passengers than stock rules dictate, and also don't worry about contact as a necessary feature.

[Reboot]

Shojo's Wizard also was able to take 6 contactless passengers, and I think it's a fairly safe assumption he wasn't 18th level. I would say Stickworld's transportation spells allow for more passengers than stock rules dictate, and also don't worry about contact as a necessary feature.

Except under Roger Rabbit rules? Or when one of the parties is sufficiently perverted.

[Peelee]

Except under Roger Rabbit rules? Or when one of the parties is sufficiently perverted.

Neither of those refer to transportation spells, which I specified in my theory of exemptions. Booya!

[Emanick]

Shojo's Wizard also was able to take 6 contactless passengers, and I think it's a fairly safe assumption he wasn't 18th level. I would say Stickworld's transportation spells allow for more passengers than stock rules dictate, and also don't worry about contact as a necessary feature.

I feel like this is likely, but for the purposes of this thread, I think we should assume no house rules are in effect unless proven otherwise (or at least unless the alternative is incredibly unlikely, such as Shojo's wizard being level 18+). So I'm up for assuming that Durkon simply cast the spell multiple times.

[Peelee]

I feel like this is likely, but for the purposes of this thread, I think we should assume no house rules are in effect unless proven otherwise (or at least unless the alternative is incredibly unlikely, such as Shojo's wizard being level 18+). So I'm up for assuming that Durkon simply cast the spell multiple times.

We definitely know that at least one house rule is in effect, as both Shojo's Wizard and Durkon do not need contact to cast their relevant travel spells. Shojo's wizard also gives weight to the idea that the passenger alotment is larger (though is not as definitive as the "no touchey" part, since there are alternate explanations for that for him).

[Emanick]

We definitely know that at least one house rule is in effect, as both Shojo's Wizard and Durkon do not need contact to cast their relevant travel spells. Shojo's wizard also gives weight to the idea that the passenger alotment is larger (though is not as definitive as the "no touchey" part, since there are alternate explanations for that for him).

Oh, sure. I just don't think we should assume that the house rules in effect are any broader than absolutely necessary (at least for the purposes of this thread - I think your interpretation is probably the same as Rich's). So yes, there seems to be a higher limit on the number of people who can teleport at once, and touching doesn't seem necessary for the teleport spell to work, but I don't think we should broaden our assumption from "normal SRD limits on teleportation are not in effect in OOTS" to "normal SRD limits on transportation spells in general are not in effect in OOTS."

Basically, these days we've already got a minimal number of clues to use in order to narrow down character stats, so the fewer house rules we assume are in play, the easier this thread's job is.

[Peelee]

Oh, sure. I just don't think we should assume that the house rules in effect are any broader than absolutely necessary (at least for the purposes of this thread - I think your interpretation is probably the same as Rich's). So yes, there seems to be a higher limit on the number of people who can teleport at once, and touching doesn't seem necessary for the teleport spell to work, but I don't think we should broaden our assumption from "normal SRD limits on teleportation are not in effect in OOTS" to "normal SRD limits on transportation spells in general are not in effect in OOTS."

Basically, these days we've already got a minimal number of clues to use in order to narrow down character stats, so the fewer house rules we assume are in play, the easier this thread's job is.

I agree; I was trying to say that we can probably assume no touching for transportation spells is a house rule, since we have two separate instances; both the teleport and the wind walk spells shown as not requiring it. However, the higher passenger limit is not in the same boat, since the wizard could have an ACF that allows for such things, IIRC.

ETA: I should add that I do disagree on the "the fewer the house rules, the easier the thread". The more known the house rules are, the easier the thread will be, I believe.

[Jasdoif]

ETA: I should add that I do disagree on the "the fewer the house rules, the easier the thread". The more known the house rules are, the easier the thread will be, I believe.

That depends on what the thread's actual purpose is, I would think.

[Schroeswald]

Yeah, touching definitely seems to not be necessarily in the OOTSverse, especially cause I looked through all the other uses of teleport and none of them have everyone touching when cast.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Probably because one of the more common house rules going back to OD&D is that you don't need to be holding hands to teleport. The game rules draw from Mary Poppins popping the kids into the chalk drawing, the game play more a transporter room from Trek.